Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92

[Executor]

Shangrila00, I was being sarcastic since you were being cute. I have no taste for pointless arguing.

Yes, I did actually test it, and I've had the misfortune of playing against Ashdod several times so far, both now and pre-nerf, and pre pre-nerf, so I'm not blowing this out of my ars.
Nothing can reliably expand against anything, IMO at least, and not even Giant commanders. (though dual dagger tribals are probably the best indies out there now )
Though it's no trouble clearing out barbarians and tribe warriors either. You could place an Adon in front, place 20 slingers behind with guard commander on a second commander and there you go.

The fact that Adons are equipped is an advantage only in the early game. It certainly is. So you have an advantage the first 15 ish turns there. And I don't think it's a small advantage.
Yes you can outfatigue them early on with crap troops like markata. But than again why would anyone actually send a lone Adon to his death like that?
Most if not all of the early game where you don't have access to construction is just expansion, and once you actually have to face someone you will probably have some gear to forge and level the encumbrance.

And you know spells have a range problem. All that sounds good in theory but when you place the Adon in the back with self buffs and waiting 5 times the spells are not gonna hit him. Or at least not unless you get sneaky and place your troops on guard commander or something. But I'm not stating that Adons are invinsible, but OP, and much better than Jarls, Fomo Kings, Kohen Gadols and Oni Kings. And I doubt you'd disagree with me here either.

And like I said, Kohen Gadols are not as nasty simply cause you can't use them early on like Adons.

[Shangrila00]

Again, you can fatigue them out with heavy infantry now. And if you've managed to solve the supporting troops routing your SC problem that has been in the game since the beginning, please do share. And without major supporting troops, there are endless ways to counter hiding SC in the back, starting with the attack one turn order. I thought that was what half the game was about, outscripting your opponent?

And no, I don't agree they are better than the other premier recruitable SCs. Ungeared, Jarls are now better. Geared, Kohen Gadols, Fomorian Kings, and Dai Oni all have better access to buffs, as are, for that matter Jarls that can soul vortex.

Honestly, it's pretty clear that Ashdod gave you the bad touch in a few games, and you are now on a crusade of vengence or some such ridiculousness. "Ashdod can never be balanced as long as they have Adons" sounds pretty much exactly like Adons are invincible, and is so overwrought that it's difficult to take seriously. Can you point to Ashdod winning lots of CBM games besides your personal anecdotes of how overpowered they are against you? Certainly, a cursory search of the multiplayer forum suggests quite the opposite.

[GFSnl]

Dai Oni, Jarls and Fom. Kings are much, MUCH better then Adons.

[Executor]

Perhaps you should calm down a bit.

There are endless ways to counter anything in the game, I've never stated othervice so I'm not sure what you're getting at?

Adons are better from start that all their giant opposition, which was the whole point of my argument. It's sort of like why I'm opposed to the ridiculous Agartha PD, near impossible to deal with early on but gets easier as the game progresses, though Adons are not nearly as extreme of course.
Yes some Jarls can get soul vortex mid game (level 6 spell), as can Fomorian Kings, and mistform and mirror image, and other stuff. Dai Oni have the best buffing options. Fact. But by that time you'll have plenty of counter measures.

In my opinion Jarls are nearly as deadly as Adons, nearly. They still have a huge disadvantage when fighting in heat dominion where they are pretty much useless. The other thing where I feel Adons have an advantage is the diversity among Adons. Namely you get teleporting Adons, while Jarl don't really get any buffs from water. Quickness is hard to use. And last, Adons have better low level forging options.
Though I agree fully kitted Jarls can be better, but that's beside the point.

My point is that it is ridiculous that you can get a 36 prot/28 def/ regenerating/ reinvigoration (earth) Adon by the end of year 1. None of the other Giant nations can get anything nearly as good. Astral Adons are even better of course. There are many (as deadly) variants of Adon which you can easily get by turn 15.

Further more, I don't thing that anything is clear to you. What I said was more of a side comment. No I don't expect Adons to really be removed of course, that would be silly. Nor do I have a vendeta or crusade against them as I would have probably mentioned this sooner. I was just trying to state that they can't be balanced, which they bloody well can't. The problem was never in their sacreds or mages, at least for me. And uping enc by 1 doesn't make them any less deadly or useful suddenly.

As for actual wins. They don't count for anything. Everyone knows Ashdod always gets ganged upon. You rarely see any vets take Ashdod since they know they'd be doomed from the get go. And for example, EA Mictlan, which everyone can agree is an awesome nation, had lesser wins than MA Oceania or Cealum until relatively recently. So I don't credit the HoF with any sort of useful information of that sort.

Now I'm going to drop this matter because you're, for what ever reason, taking this personally and I have no interest in being dragged into a flame.

[Shangrila00]

Wait...as far as I can see, I've been calmly debating. Pointing out how overwrought "Ashdod can never be balanced if they have Adons...because Ashdod kicked my butt!!!!" isn't itself overwrought except in magical projection land.

Your arguments are easy to see as a crusade of vengence because they are rather silly. Teleportation (at construction 6) being overpowered, when every Fomorian King can teleport at Enchantment 4, and without dying to magic duel. Completely and repeatedly ignoring that nonfatigue neutral Adons lose to their cost in completely normal heavy infantry, and yet still claiming that the encumbrance change does nothing to rein them in. You can't simultaneously argue that Adonim are super because they don't need equipment, and also that you can fully equip an SC year 1, and that's why Adonim are super.

I mean, really, arguing on the one side that the Adon research malus means nothing since they should be out fighting, and simultaneously claiming that an Ashdod doing that will have Conjuration 3 and Construction 2 year 1? Where in the world is all that research coming from? The awake research pretender Ashdod took that also has E10N4+ and decent economic scales right? No doubt using that -100 point Ashdod only E3N1 chasis called "I win."

Please, share the build you know Ashdod can use to do what you claim it can. Or if you don't want to because you can't, admit it. Trying to abandon an argument by claiming nonexistent flaming though...that's bad form.

[Executor]

LOL. You're funny. I wonder what you're like when you get all fussy.
Well, for the record I've never lost to Ashdod. But I get that you like to pull things out of context.

And I don't see why you have to recruit an Adon every turn? Oh, yes, 300 research in 12 turns is absolutely unimaginable. While, you'd have to recruit a mage every turn almost!

Heck no, I'll not abandon this now, it's fun. Do I do think you need some manners.

[ghoul31]

Originally Posted by Executor

LOL. You're funny. I wonder what you're like when you get all fussy.
Well, for the record I've never lost to Ashdod. But I get that you like to pull things out of context.

And I don't see why you have to recruit an Adon every turn? Oh, yes, 300 research in 12 turns is absolutely unimaginable. While, you'd have to recruit a mage every turn almost!

Heck no, I'll not abandon this now, it's fun. Do I do think you need some manners.

why don't you actually play Ashdod in the new cbm. Then you can talk. Because the stuff you are talking about now can't be done.

[Shangrila00]

Hey, perhaps you should calm down a bit.

For whatever reason, you seem to be taking this personally, and I have no interest in...okay let's get serious.

So present your build that allows Ashdod to do what you claim. It doesn't take a great deal of math to demonstrate Ashdod can have at most 321 rp by the end of year 1. That's by recruiting one 200 gold or 310 gold sacred mage per turn, with no site searching, and no Adons. What kind of troops are you recruiting for expansion, and when is your second fort going up? Do so, and I will concede that point, though it would be nice if you responded to the others as well.

[Executor]

It most certainly can when you play your cards right.
And I have no intension of proving any point by playing them in game. What I say comes from experience, like the **** storm with Agartha.
Besides, I dislike Ashdod, there are many other nations I'd sooner play then them.

Though I wouldn't drop the opportunity to do just that if I got them in a random game.

[Executor]

Well don't reedit so I can't see.

Okay,
Didn't say teleportation is OP, just that they too have that option. And I'd rather have an astral teleporter than air, magic duel or not.

"Completely and repeatedly ignoring that nonfatigue neutral Adons lose to their cost in completely normal heavy infantry and yet still claiming that the encumbrance change does nothing to rein them in."

It doesn't as you don't need zero reinvigoration against indies. That is if you even chose to use only Adons for expansion which I don't see why you would. You don't lose much even if you don't recruit a single Adon until turn 15. Wait and build an extra fort and a research force by that time. Expand with national and indies and mercs and than start poping out Adons.
Against a human opponent you wouldn't risk an Adon like that.

"You can't simultaneously argue that Adonim are super because they don't need equipment, and also that you can fully equip an SC year 1, and that's why Adonim are super."

Why can't I? They are great if you chose to expand with them at which point they don't need equipment. Sure you'll need to stay clear of some provinces but that's always been the case and you'll need some extra help on others. And than you get to the point where you face a human opponent at which point you throw in items to make those Adons really nasty.

You don't need to take the end of year 1 literally though even that can be done. Turn 15? Certainly.
As for a build, take a standard Cyclops, E10N4, dominion 6. Order 3, production 0-2. Misfortune 2. Magic 1 or 3. Death 1. Heat 3.
Build a sage every turn and you can have 2 Adons and const 2 and conjuration 3 by year 2.
For expansion use regular Ashdod troops. Use indie commanders to led them. Use mercs. Dominions is a game of chance and luck, you can't take every word or guide literally. **** you can get stamped by knight on turn 2 and game over, or you can get 3000 gold and a robe of the mage and go crazy.