Anomaly reports

[Pibwl]

The quoted sources explicitly say, that BTR-50PK carried 20 soldiers as well -that's why I wrote about "BTR-50" in general.

Regards
Michal

[Mobhack]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

The quoted sources explicitly say, that BTR-50PK carried 20 soldiers as well -that's why I wrote about "BTR-50" in general.

Regards
Michal

And as Don pointed out, we already had a conversation with Russian gamers who were insistent that the closed top versions (to include the BTR-60s etc) had a lower troop capacity. AFAIR, the roof and arrangements for hatches reduced the capacity of the open top version (which had simple charabanc type cross-benches)

And as for sources - despite most web sites saying "20", I'll stick with David Isby's "Weapons and tactics of the Soviet Army" where it is stated that passengers are 12 (18-20 in open-topped versions).

That tends to agree near enough to the Russian guys who we dealt with 5 or more years back. 14 is near enough to 12 for game purposes.

Cheers
Andy

[Pibwl]

Well, I don't know myself, I'm only basing at what Mikhail Baryatynski wrote (quite a known expert on Soviet armour). It's very probable, that capacity was 20, while the gamers may refer to actual number of soldiers carried, which depended on organization (it was sure more comfortable for less soldiers). For example, in the Czechoslovak Army, a modified OT-62 carried crew of 2 and 14 soldiers (two sections) plus platoon's commander (sketches at http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/53321 )

You've made me to search an original Soviet military manual of BTR-50, which I've just downloaded, and which says on p.4: "each APC of both variants enables carrying or ferrying [ie. on water] of 20 troops with full combat equipment or 2000 kg of different loads". In a troop compartment there were two 4-seat benches along sides, upon tracks and three longitudinal removable benches along the compartment. It is BTW interesting, that BTR-50P could carry a 57-85 gun or 107 mm RG or 3 mortars or GAZ-69 jeep atop.

Hope this info helps.

PS. BTR-60 indeed had capacity reduced from 14 (P) to 12 (PA) and only 8 in PB - it might need changes as well (possibly 9, if we include commander sitting next to driver).

Regards
Michal

[Richard_H]

Not going to get involved with this one, if only because my reference books are currently a couple of thousand miles away, and I'd have to rely on the Net. However, I must agree with Don that the original unit that started this discussion off has a primary function as a Prime Mover - the fact that it can carry anything else is a bonus.

In the meantime, I'll just keep them coming . . .

Class 31 – Off-Map Rockets

Russia 275 has Speed 25 – I suspect it’s a typo. Similarly, Switzerland 957 has Swim Speed 2.

34 units have armour. IIRC this is not required for off-map units; what I don’t know is whether or not it may affect counter-battery fire. They are:-
Egypt 563; Syria 569, 570, 573; Israel 252; China 554, 565, 742 & 743; Gulf 472 & 474; Iraq 560-562; India 531-533; S.Korea 549 & 550; Pakistan 278 & 279; Czech 162; Argentina 585; Brazil 181 & 182; Algeria 170, 172 & 173; Saudi 470; Malaysia 462 & 463; N.Yemen 465; Ecuador 187 & 188.

Similarly, the following units have a Survivability rating:-
Egypt 562 & 563; Poland 162, 165, 298, 299; Syria 567, 569, 570, 573; Israel 252 & 257; PLO 296 & 297; Russia 275; China 554, 742 & 743; Gulf 470, 472, 474; Iraq 560-562; India 531-533; N.Korea 519; Pakistan 278 & 279; Turkey 919; Romania 166-168; Argentina 586 & 587; Brazil 181 & 182; Algeria 170, 172, 173; Slovakia 144; Switzerland 957; Cambodia 518 & 519; Saudi 470; Lebanon 587; Malaysia 462 & 463; N.Yemen 465; Eritrea 580; Ukraine 263 & 264; Ecuador 187 & 188; Nicaragua 185 & 186; Somalia 580.
If this is purely cosmetic, it’s probably too much of a PITA, because I’m sure you have more important concerns.

Many of the above (and others) also have a Weight rating, but unless this affects the game, I’m not going to bother.

Crew numbers may not affect off-map weapons (can’t remember) and if this is the case, non-bold parts of this section can be ignored.

Arash Platoon – Iran 492 has Crew 24, others 18.

BM-14 Platoon – Cambodia 518 has this title, even though its weapons are 240mm rockets, not 140mm. AFAIK Cambodia never had the BM-24 (240mm), so it’s probably the weapon that should be changed/added.

BM-21 Platoon – Russia 260 & 266 have Crew 20, Bulgaria 165 has 24, Poland 165 & Hungary 165 have 12, India 530 has 6, others have 18.
Bosnia 333 has weapons loadout of 40 x 3 and RoF 20, all others have 80 x 3 and 40.

BM-24 Platoon – Iran 490 & Russia 262 have Crew 24, Poland 168 has 16, others have 18.

BM-27 Platoon – Crew standard 18, Russia 261 & N.Yemen 464 have 24, Ecuador 186 has 15.

BM-30 Platoon – Russia 259 has Crew 32, Algeria 172 has 24, Ukraine 264 has 18, Ecuador 188 has 12.
CM versions (Russia 263, Algeria 173, Ukraine 263) have similar numbers, although 1 weapon less.

LAR – Israel 250 & 251 and Argentina 585 have weapon loadouts of 52 x 3, and RoF 36. Suspect loadout should be 72 x 3.
Argentina 585 has Crew 27, others have 6.

LAROM-122 – Romania 168 retains the RoF = 13 of other LAROMs, but has 80 rounds per weapon.

M270 Section – Spain 93 has Crew 12, Turkey 142 has 16, UK 159 & Greece 101 have 18, Finland 557 has 24; all others have 9.

RM-70 Platoon – Angola 585 & Uruguay 118 have Crew 6, Finland 556 has 24, others have 18.

Sakr-30 Section – Egypt 566 has Crew 18, others have 6.

Richard H

[Suhiir]

OOB #13 (USMC)

For some reason
Unit #284 Predator Team
and
Unit #288 Predator Team
are both 3-man teams, they should be two.

As a guess I'd say this was done because if it is a two-man team then the cost calculator makes it cost less then Unit #413 SMAW Team (which is two-man) even tho the Predator is superior anti-tank weapon to the SMAW (in both real life and game terms).

[DRG]

Right now I have MORE than enough to keep me busy until the end of winter.

Don

[dmnt]

To keep Don warm (or overheated) in the cold winter:

Finnish OOB, unit 474:
Sissi Section, 1/83-1/87
Weapon 3 is Apilas (not in use at that time)

suggested replacement: 66 KeS Orak (M72 LAW), 2-4 pieces.

Unit: 574
AGL Nest, 1/99-12/120
Weapon 1 & 2: 30mm AGS-17 GL (Finnish designation 30mm KrKK 93)
replaced by 40mm KrKK 05 (US designation MK-19) in 2005

RDF (Rapid Deployment Force) seems to be a bit undervalued compared to other troops, such as Sissi Co or Coast Jaeger Co, which consist of regular conscripts. RDF Co should probably have higher experience and morale than Sissi Co, but similar to Para and lower than Special Jaegers. They're more trained and usually have experience from peace keeping missions abroad.

Current values (Exp/morale)
RDF Co: 3/0
Sissi Co: 5/10
Coast Jaeger Co: 5/5
Para Co: 10/10
Special Jg: 15/15

Suggestion: I believe that 10/10 or 15/10 would present them properly.


Formation 052: MBT Company
Consists of 2 Leopard 2A4S's and 3 platoons of T-72s, which I find quite odd. T-72 is no longer in active service and so I would think that this should be consisting of 3 platoons of MBTs. MBT Platoon is not used in any formation.

[Richard_H]

Back live. SP Mortars to start with:-

Class 38 – SP Mortars

Switzerland 626 & 770 (Bison) are in this class, but they appear as fortifications. The following units (2 Bison) are Class 156 (Off-Map Heavy Artillery). They have Speed 0, so they aren’t SP-ing anywhere in a hurry. Typo?

Switzerland 760-765 are also Speed 0, and are called ‘Moerser Festung’, or Mortar Fortress. If the oob designer wanted to distinguish them from vanilla bunkers, they could be changed to Class 152.

EE-11 – Brazil 57 has Crew 4, Green 512 has 6.

Type YW 304 (& derivatives) – Iran 202 has Survivability 3, others have 4.

VTT PM – France 439 & Ecuador 57 have Crew 6, Gulf 215 & 216 have 5; France 440, Belgium 33 and Saudi 215 & 216 have 3. The correct number (for both versions) is, I think, 6.
France 439 & 440 and Ecuador 57 have Speed 21, others have 22. I think 21 is correct.
Belgium 33 has Survivability 3, others have 4. It also has armour stats 6/3/2/3/3/2/1, others have 4/2/2/4/2/2/1.
Gulf 215 has 80 81mm rounds, others have 88.

MT-LB 82mm – S.Yemen 217 has Crew 5, others have 4.
Red 125 has Survivability 4, others have 3.
Czech 35 & Hungary 35 have RoF 9, Ukraine 590 has 8, others have 7.
Iraq 220 & S.Yemen 217 have 48 Weapon 1 (Mortar) rounds, Poland 35, Czech 35 & Hungary 35 have 50, Red 125 & Ukraine 590 have 60.

MT-LB 120mm – Russia 592 & Red 126 have Survivability 4, others have 3.
Czech 405 & 406 and Hungary 405 have RoF 8, others have 5.
Russia 592 has 60 Weapon 1 (Mortar) rounds, Iraq 221 has 42, others have 40. I don’t know whether the fact that they are different mortars makes a difference.
Russia 592, Iraq 221, Red 126 & Ukraine 592 have 120 Weapon 2 (PKT TMG) rounds, others have 90.

MT-LB Vasilek – Poland 406 has Survivability 3, Russia 591 has 4. Standard for MT-LBs appears to be 3.
Polish & Russian versions have Crew 5, Hungary 406 & Ukraine 591 have 4. Hungary & Ukraine also have Speed 22, others 20.
Hungary & Ukraine have 50/10 Weapon 1 HE/HEAT rounds, others have 74/6.
Poland 406 & Hungary 406 have 90 Weapon 2 (PKT TMG) rounds, Russia 591 & Ukraine 591 have 120.

2S4 – Russia 589 has Size 5, Crew 5, Speed 21, Swim Speed 0, Load Cost 27. Others have 3/4/18/2/10. Russian unit also has no top armour, others have 1.
Other units are Syria 335, Czech 417 & Ukraine 589.
Syria 335 has Survivability 3, others have 4.
Iraq 223 has different stats from the others, but also has a different name (2S1 – 240).

M3 60mm – S.Korea 210 has Survivability 0, other M3-based mortar carriers have 3.

M3 Series 81mm – Greece 79 has Crew 5, France 433, and Argentina 54 & 55 have 6; Israel 500, UK 420, Jordan 290, Iran 200, Denmark 30, Brazil 55 & Chile 55 have 4. I suspect 6 is correct.
France 433 has Speed 22; UK, Jordan, Iran, Greece & Denmark have 18, the remainder 24. I know the International Harvester version had a different engine from the original, so this may account for the difference.
Greece 79 & Denmark 30 have RoF 8, others 7.
France 433 has 97 Weapon 1 (Mortar) rounds, Greece 79 has 66, the remainder have 60.

M3/M4 107mm – UK 419 has Crew 4 & RoF 6, Italy 59 has 5/7. UK 419 has 40 Weapon 1 (Mortar) rounds, Italy 59 has 66.

M21 – Austria 29, Cambodia 270 & 271, Lebanon 200, Ecuador 55, El Salvador 55, Nicaragua 55 & 56, and Peru 55 have Crew 4, S.Yemen 215 & 216 have 5, others have 6.
USA 505, S.Korea 211, Taiwan 211 & Belgium 31 have Speed 22, others have 24.
Ecuador 55 has Lift Capacity 2, others have 0.
Thailand 229 has RoF 8, others have 7.
S.Yemen 215 & 216 have 48 Weapon 1 (Mortar) rounds; USA 505, S.Korea 211, Taiwan 211 & Belgium 31 have 97, all others have 60.

M106 – Taiwan 212 has Crew 6, Italy 61 has 4, others have 3.
S.Korea 212, Taiwan 212, Norway 27, Italy 61 & Denmark 32 have Speed 23, others have 21.
Italy 61 has Weight 12, others have 10.
Italy 61 & Cambodia 272 have RoF 7, others have 6. Denmark 32 has RoF 8 (should be 7 for standard 81mm mortar).
Italy 61 has 86 Weapon 1 rounds, others have 88. It also has top armour 0, others have 1.

M106A1 – Crews are mixed. Portugal 41 & Peru 56 have 4, Gulf 218 has 5, Thailand 232 has 6, the rest have 3. This video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zH_a...eature=related appears to show a crew of 4 on a M106A2. Those with 3 crew are:- USA 32, Belgium 32, Netherlands 64, Greece 83 & Saudi 219.
Belgium 32 has Survivability 3, others have 4.
Greece 83, Thailand 232 & Saudi 219 have RoF 7, others have 6.
Belgium 32 & Portugal 41 have 50 Weapon 1 rounds, Netherlands 64 has 86, others have 88.

M106A2 – Crews are:- Egypt 361 has 2, Israel 505, USA 31 and Greece 84 & 85 have 3, Argentina 56 has 6. See above.
Egypt 361 has Speed 21, others have 23.
Greece 84 & 85 have RoF 7, others have 6. NB Greece 85 has a 120mm mortar.
Egypt 361 has Weapon 1 ammo 60, others have 88.

M106A3 – USA 38 has Speed 20, Chile 56 has 23. Both have Crew 3 (see above). Armour for US version is 5/4/3//4/3/2, for Chilean 3/2/1/3/2/1/1.

M125 – Greece 80 has RoF 8, standard 81mm is 7.
Jordan 292 has 60 Weapon 1 rounds, Greece 80 has 114. I believe the correct loadout is 114 (www.afvdb.com).

M125A1 – Crews are mixed:- Iran 201, Denmark 31 & Saudi 217 have 3, Brazil 56 & Portugal 40 have 4, Gulf 217 has 5, Taiwan 213 & Thailand 230 have 6.
Spain 71 & Denmark 31 have RoF 9, Thailand 230 has 8, others have 7.
Iran 201, Gulf 217, Denmark 31 & Portugal 40 have 60 Weapon 1 (Mortar) rounds, Saudi 217 has 69, the remainder have 114 (qv M125).

M125A2 – Lebanon 201 has Crew 4, others have 3.
Egypt 362 has Speed 21, others have 23.

M1064 – Crews are mixed:- Egypt 360 has 2, USA 33, Iraq 219, Saudi 220 & N.Yemen 216 have 3, Italy 62 & 63 have 4, Gulf 220 has 5, Argentina 57 & Thailand 233 have what I believe to be the correct figure of 6 (So does www.fas.org).
Egypt 360 has Speed 21, all others have 23.
Gulf 220 & Saudi 220 have Survivability 3, all others have 4.
Italy 62 & 63 have Weight 12, others have 10.
USA 33, Iraq 219, Italy 62 & 63 have RoF 6, others have the standard 120mm RoF of 5.
Weapon 1 loadouts vary from 40 to 69. However, Egypt 360 has 90 rounds, which is more than are carried by the 107mm-armed M106. Egypt is also the only version to have vision (20).
Maybe by way of compensation, the Egyptian version has only 60 Weapon 2 rounds, others have 90.
Italy 62 & 63 have no top armour, others have 1.

M113 Mortar Carriers (undefined):- Netherlands 65, Spain 70, Cambodia 269 & Nicaragua 57 have Crew 3, Ecuador 56 has 4. All have Speed 20.
Spain 70 has RoF 8, with a 120mm mortar. It also carries 69 Weapon 1 rounds (standard loadout for a 120mm is 40). It also has no top armour, standard is 1.


Class 133 – Light SP Mortar.

M125A1 – Pakistan 58 & Turkey 71 have RoF 8, others have 7.

M113 Mortar Carriers – ARVN 237, Turkey 72 & 73 have RoF 9 (standard 81mm mortar is 7).

Richard H

[Richard_H]

Mortars in all their guises . . .

Class 5 – Mortars

Argentina 506 has Size 0, all others have 1.

Chad 61 has Speed 5, the standard for 60mm mortars is 3.

Uruguay 106 has Speed 0, standard for 107mm mortars is 1.

Poland 510, Nigeria 69, Sudan 80 & 82 and Uruguay 105 have Speed 3, standard for 81/82mm mortar sections is 2.

Switzerland 174, 175, 721 & 729 are the only units with a Vision figure (10).

Libya 84 & 85 have RoF 7, standard for 107mm mortars is 6.

NVA 72-74, Pakistan 84, Greece 137-139, Turkey 117 & 118, Hungary 510-513, Romania 70, 75 & 76, Libya 80-83 and Ethiopia 82 & 87 have RoF 8, standard for 81/82mm mortars is 7.


Class 152 – Heavy Mortars

France 429 – should this be classed as a Heavy Mortar?

105mm Mortars – Denmark 104 has Crew 12, others have 8.

107mm Mortars – Pakistan 80 & Indonesia 66 have Weight 2, others have 1.
India 83 has Crew 10, others have 8.
Cyprus 77 has Speed 2, others have 1.
Greece 141 & 142, Turkey 120 & 121 and Ethiopia 84 have RoF 7, others have 6.

120mm Mortar – PLO 74 & 75 have RoF 7, Libya 87 has 6, others have 5.
S.Yemen 87 has Weight 1, others have 2.
Argentina 63, Brazil 63 & 64 and Chile 63 have 25 Weapon 1 rounds, Uruguay 107 has 30, Italy 111 & 112 have 50, others have 40.

120mm Mortars – Greece 143 has RoF 7, USA 86, NVA 76, Turkey 123 & 124, Hungary 515-518, Libya 86 & Ethiopia 86 have 6, Romania 78-80 have 4, others have 5.
Sudan 88 has Weight 3, others have 2.
Jordan 87 has Crew 8, Turkey 123 & 124 have 10, others have 12.
Romania 79 has Speed 0, others have 1.
France 413 and Sudan 86-89 have 30 Weapon 1 & 2 rounds, others have 40.

160mm Mortar – Czech 520 & 521 and Hungary 520 have Size 2, others have 1.
PLO 77 & Ecuador 63 have Weight 2, Albania 64 has 4, others have 3.
NVA 79, Czech 520 & 521, Hungary 520 & Libya 88 have RoF 4, others have 3.
PLO 77 has 20 Weapon 1 rounds, others have 24.

160mm Mortars – Romania 335 has Size 3, Crew 8, Weight 0 & RoF 4, others have 1/16/3/3
Yugoslavia 310-312 have 20 Weapon 1 & 2 rounds, others have 24..

240mm Mortar – Libya 89 has Size 1, Crew 12 & Weight 3, others have 4/10/4.
Russia 438 has RoF 2, others have 3.
Hungary 524 has 15 Weapon 1 rounds, others have 20.

Richard H

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Richard_H

Back live. SP Mortars to start with:-

Class 38 – SP Mortars

Switzerland 626 & 770 (Bison) are in this class, but they appear as fortifications. The following units (2 Bison) are Class 156 (Off-Map Heavy Artillery). They have Speed 0, so they aren’t SP-ing anywhere in a hurry. Typo?

Switzerland 760-765 are also Speed 0, and are called ‘Moerser Festung’, or Mortar Fortress. If the oob designer wanted to distinguish them from vanilla bunkers, they could be changed to Class 152.

Richard H

I would appreciate the advice more if the "adviser" understood the game better. These units were added in this way as an acceptable compromise because they are special bunkers and therefore need armour ratings. UC 152 is an infantry class and therefore does not accept armour ratings and this is why all of those units are stationary "SP" mortars because they need to work as mortars and they need armour and that class covers that critera and was not being used.

Also, given they have the range to operate off map they are available for that use as off map arty and none of them are "SP" at all that's just the best class available to use and we all knew they weren't "SP-ing anywhere" when Peter added them to the Swiss OOB but thought, given the names of the units and Icons used that would have been obvious.

Originally Posted by Richard_H

France 429 – should this be classed as a Heavy Mortar?

It saves using up four slots using class Mortar(Sub Type B) just to make an 81mm mortar unit UC 152 for four years to cover the Legion Spt Pl that it was intended to cover. The "error" was sometime in the past somebody pushed the start date for all French Hvy mortars back to 1946.



Don