Is the REAL problem with VQs...Norfleet?

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally posted by archaeolept:
re. the counters thread: its more that most of what is discussed there presupposes catching the uber-VQ in open terrain in the mid to late game, which is not something I sea often. The VQ is hidden in the sea of castles for the most part, and if it does move out i'm not sure if an attack on her would occur before an "instant castle" spell like 7 red seconds takes place.

There are other game strategys which involve trying to time the next attack your enemy will make and attack that same province at the same time. Its not an uncommon skill to try and develop. That would handle 7 red seconds

And if a tactic keeps her from leaving her castle then it would be a good thing. Most of her benefits are handled then. Late game has alot of spells that could help if you can keep her from winning the game too quick.

[ May 06, 2004, 19:39: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

[rabelais]

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:

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Originally posted by archaeolept:

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Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:

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Originally posted by rabelais:
I think he deserves a cookie for finding a way to break the game,... (keeps the balance faithful humble ) but that doesn't mean we shouldn't repair the defect (and its derivable cousins), now that we know it exists.

Why do you do that? Is it reverse psychology? Do you maybe really NOT want it fixed?

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what?

rabe's post seemed pretty straight-forward

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It is straight forward, I will grant it that. But seeing it posted in every thread using words like broken and defect and fix doesnt strike me as a way of getting the devs to agree. If it were me I would think it would have an oppossite effect. But I guess life, like this game, supports many strategys. I was just trying to figure this one out.

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Gandalf, I'm working under the presumptive principle that the devs are thoughtful, mature adults, who, understanding complex sytems as they must to have created this marvelous game, realize that not every contingency can be anticipated, which is why such systems are interesting.

IMHO the strat in its most extreme form reduces the functional and strategic diversity of the game. A game we all treasure and with which we are positively obsessed !

I suspect from KO's reaction to hearing the strat described, that this degree of monotonic leverage was not forseen by the authors and is clearly counterparadigmatic.

I may be wrong. The devs may not agree, and I suppose there is a possibility that seeing me refer to the strat as "broken" (which is a technical CCG term, but perhaps should be explained more thoroughly with each use) will cause them to toss reason to the wind and obsteperously pile on immortal SC buffs until doomsday. (Which would indeed be arriving early )

It seems unlikely to me, but if that's true then I misunderstand the devs, the game and the community.

I haven't insulted anyone, I LOVE this game.

To suggest that I am endangering balance by attempting to defend it is bizarre.

It seems vastly more disrepectful of the devs to suggest they are reactively perverse and fragile in response to constructive feedback than any contexual criticism I could make.

These are brilliant men, not cranks or emotionally stunted children.

How does taking their work seriously enough to be impassioned against its abuse count as counterproductive behavior?


Rabe the Mildly Offended

(and off to catch a plane...)

[Reverend Zombie]

Originally posted by Kel:
I don't really have a huge problem with the VQ herself but to answer the question of the post...the answer is 'no'.

I say that because Norfleet hasn't been in a single one of the larger games I have played (and VQs are/were).

Also because VQ's are all over the place...

Lastly, a lot of people build her completely differently than he does (he, himself, comments on how he wouldn't build one the way someone else did).

- Kel

Are these folks winning with their VQs? Or is there only one way of playing VQs that is really "broken?"

[Wikd Thots]

Dont back off now Rabi. Gandalf is just an old guy and wishes he can make us use our GOOD manners.

You go ahead and pick anything in the game you want and dont use wimpy words like balanse or opinion or please look at. TELL them that there game is all broke and defektiv messed up (not the word I wanted but I changed it 3 times till I got one I thot might stay). Those 2 guys in the garage after work should change what PLAYERS say is broke and stop doing just what they want to do

[ May 09, 2004, 04:15: Message edited by: Wikd Thots ]

[Kel]

Originally posted by Reverend Zombie:
Are these folks winning with their VQs? Or is there only one way of playing VQs that is really "broken?"

Well, the original qustion was whether most of the people in the debate were in it because of Norfleet. I don't think most of the people in the debate think she is broken, they just think she is over-powered.

I don't want to spread that thread across multiple threads so I will stick to strictly answering the question of whether they are using her because of Norfleet. And to me, all evidence is that this is not the case, for the reasons I mentioned. I can't account for everyone of course but I don't think a lot of these people have necessarily even played against Norfleet.

- Kel

[Vynd]

Originally posted by Wikd Thots:
Dont back off now Rabi. Gandalf is just an old guy and wishes he can make us use our GOOD manners.

You go ahead and pick anything in the game you want and dont use wimpy words like balanse or opinion or please look at. TELL them that there game is all broke and defektiv messed up (not the word I wanted but I changed it 3 times till I got one I thot might stay). Those 2 guys in the garage after work should change what PLAYERS say is broke and stop doing just what they want to do

Well I don't know that I'd go that far, myself. But I do think that, Gandalf, you're overreacting a bit. I don't see why Rabe shouldn't say he thinks the VQ is "broken" and needs to be "fixed." That's hardly what I consider offensive language. I have trouble believing that the devs are as overly sensitive to criticism as you're portraying them to be.

And as far as Norfleet goes, I'm sure his success has played a big role in creating this controversy around the VQ. And I'm sure his success has a lot more to do with him than it does with the VQ. But that doesn't necessarily mean that the VQ is perfect the way it is. And it doesn't necessarily mean there's anything wrong with Norfleet, either.

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally posted by Kel:
Well, the original qustion was whether most of the people in the debate were in it because of Norfleet. I don't think most of the people in the debate think she is broken, they just think she is over-powered.

I think its not even that simple. The fact that she one of the most powerful choices, maybe even THE most powerful, is easy to admit to. Especially for certain nations and certain playing styles. But whether thats over-powered is different. If the lowest is always nerfed upwards, and the highest always nerfed downwards, then we will end up playing chess.

To be truthful Ive only found VQ to be fun to play with a couple of nations. I know fun-to-play isnt the deciding factor in some peoples games, especially multiplayer, but it means that for me the game isnt broke by her. Im still looking at it though.

[Stormbinder]

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:

quote:

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Originally posted by Kel:
Well, the original qustion was whether most of the people in the debate were in it because of Norfleet. I don't think most of the people in the debate think she is broken, they just think she is over-powered.

I think its not even that simple. The fact that she one of the most powerful choices, maybe even THE most powerful, is easy to admit to. Especially for certain nations and certain playing styles. But whether thats over-powered is different. If the lowest is always nerfed upwards, and the highest always nerfed downwards, then we will end up playing chess.

To be truthful Ive only found VQ to be fun to play with a couple of nations. I know fun-to-play isnt the deciding factor in some peoples games, especially multiplayer, but it means that for me the game isnt broke by her. Im still looking at it though.

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Nah, of course stength of VQs has nothing to do with Norfleet. I've only played against him few times, and I've played against dozens of VQ in other games, many of them were using simialar design. However obviously because it is so strong and fits his standard strategy Norfleet does use it most of the time, based upon what other players tell me.

[johan osterman]

Originally posted by Wikd Thots:
Dont back off now Rabi. Gandalf is just an old guy and wishes he can make us use our GOOD manners.

You go ahead and pick anything in the game you want and dont use wimpy words like balanse or opinion or please look at. TELL them that there game is all broke and defektiv messed up (not the word I wanted but I changed it 3 times till I got one I thot might stay). Those 2 guys in the garage after work should change what PLAYERS say is broke and stop doing just what they want to do

Preach on brother Wikd. Yes they should do what you want shouldn't they, seeing how they never play the game themselves, nor can have any valid opinions concerning balance of their own, especially since all PLAYERS agree on these balance issues. You also make an excellent point that you shouldn't mince words or be polite, behaving like a snotnosed brat underscores how strongly you feel and should serve to make people take you and your opinions seriously.

[calmon]

To be truthful Ive only found VQ to be fun to play with a couple of nations. I know fun-to-play isnt the deciding factor in some peoples games, especially multiplayer, but it means that for me the game isnt broke by her. Im still looking at it though.

Even if i only see the fun factor in a mp game (fun its great for me too) i'm bored to see so much VQs. I want some diversity! This can only be reached by balance. Rabelais is like lot of here a very good analyst and sees the advantages in the multifunctional VP-chassis. He shoudn't be blamed for that.