Iraqi errors report - Part 2

[Marcello]

Unit 992 UAZ Jeep from russian OOB could be added.
1/1975-12/2020 as availability dates.



Source: www.armyrecognition.com

Units 345-570: SU-100
They should be rearmed with weapon 54 12.7 DShK AAMG instead of weapon 56 14.5 KPV AAMG in slot 2.

Units 346-571: SU-100M
1) Stabilizer rating should be reduced to 0, SU-100s did not get stabilizers in the postwar upgrades
(Source tank-net.org ). Being assault guns stabilizer would have been a very odd choice for an upgrade anyway.
2) They should be rearmed with weapon 54 12.7 DShK AAMG instead of weapon 56 14.5 KPV AAMG in slot 2.
3) FC rating could be reduced to 3, there is no mention that sights were upgraded.

Unit 284 Cascavel III
A clone of it should be added with 1/2008-12/2020 as availability dates.
Source: http://www.blackanthem.com/News/scit...les13820.shtml

Units 785-786-787-788-789: Foreign Troops
They could be renamed “Jihadist Team”

Formation 173: SP-SAM Battery
Formation 175: SP-SAM Platoon
Unit 374: SA-6 Kub
Unit 379: AMX-30 Roland
Final availability date for all of the above should be changed to 4/2003. As I noted in the past SP SAMs went out of service in 2003, with captured ones being scrapped.

A new SP-SAM Section using two units 46 Avenger HMMWV as template and with 1/2011-12/2020 as availability dates should be introduced instead. Avengers are used in sections of two.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita.../44-44/Ch1.htm

Unit 215: M728 CEV
It should be deleted.
There were, until last year, talks about aquiring a very large stock of M60s from Greece and/or others suppliers which were getting rid of them. It was at least within the real of the possible that some M728s might have been thrown in as well.
The M60 option would have made some sense but the iraqis seem to have settled for a slower build up of an Abrams based tank force, supplemented by T-72s and some residual T-55/Type 69. It is still possible that some M60s might be purchased to boost numbers (iraqi procurement is very fluid at the moment) so units 9-10 can be left but a rare, specialized and harder to mantain vehicle like the M728 will not be included in all likelyhood. They already have in service or on order several vehicles performing engineering functions (BREMs, M88s etc.).

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Marcello

Some changes for the tank guns

weapon 70 100mm D10T 55
HEAT penetration should be reduced from 38 to 28
It would represent BR-412B AP and BK-5 HEAT combination

weapon 71 100mm D10T 60
AP penetration should be reduced from 21 to 19
It would represent BR-412B AP and BK-5M HEAT combination

weapon 72 100mm D10T 69
Sabot penetration should be increased to 30 and Sabot Range to 90
It would represent BR-412D AP, BK-5M HEAT and BM-8 APDS combination.

Marcello, do you have any idea when BR-412B APBC and BR-412 APCBC were first produced and distributed ? All I've found so far is a vague reference to a time period right after WW2. In game terms the Pen for BR-412B should be 18 ( I have a number of weapons being adjusted in this next patch and this just happens to be one of them ) , BR-412"D" APCBC should be 22 but It would be helpful if anyone knows then these things started being issued. Stock BR-412 would be 16 pen in game based on detailed info I found on it's performance and the B and D versions at 500, 1000, 1500, 2000 and 3000 yards and that means there will be adjustments to SPWW2 as well

For HEAT I have 100mm BK-5M with 380mm Pen issued " in mid 50's " but I also have source that says BK-5M was issued in 1960. The round before that I have as BK-354M HEAT with 280mm pen but I've also seen that described as BK-5., If anyone knows when BK-5M was first issued that would be helpful

As for BM-8 APDS I have that showing up in 1968 with penetration rated between 257 mm and 264 @ 1km and in game terms we get a closer representation with a 31 pen and 90 range
Since everyone looks for inconsistencies that may exist between one weapon in other OOBs and given that this gun is used in dozens of OOB's There are adjustments that need to be done in quite a few plus SPww2.

However it would be helpful to know just when the BR-412D started making an appearance.

Don

[Marcello]

Originally Posted by DRG

Marcello, do you have any idea when BR-412B APBC and BR-412 APCBC were first produced and distributed ? All I've found so far is a vague reference to a time period right after WW2.

I asked the same question a long time ago. The best answer I got was the following.

BR-412B: 1945
BR-412D: with one of the T-54 models, perhaps model 1951 circa 1951-1952.

[redcoat2]

I've just quickly looked up the 100 mm rounds in question in the Jane’s Ammunition Handbook. It isn’t particularly good for ‘older’ ammunition but here are a few quotes from the book.

Originally Posted by DRG

Marcello, do you have any idea when BR-412B APBC and BR-412 APCBC were first produced and distributed ? All I've found so far is a vague reference to a time period right after WW2. In game terms the Pen for BR-412B should be 18 ( I have a number of weapons being adjusted in this next patch and this just happens to be one of them ) , BR-412"D" APCBC should be 22 but It would be helpful if anyone knows then these things started being issued. Stock BR-412 would be 16 pen in game based on detailed info I found on it's performance and the B and D versions at 500, 1000, 1500, 2000 and 3000 yards and that means there will be adjustments to SPWW2 as well

"For many years the 100 mm AP-T 53-BR-412 and its improved variant the AP-T 53-BR-412B, were the main anti-armour projectiles fired from D-10 series tank guns. The 53-BR-412 was introduced into service together with the D-10 gun, while the 53-BR-412B first appeared during the 1950s and replaced the earlier model."

"The 53-BR-412 can penetrate 135 mm of vertical armour at 1,000 m and the 53-BR-412B penetration at the same range is 185 mm."

Originally Posted by DRG

For HEAT I have 100mm BK-5M with 380mm Pen issued " in mid 50's " but I also have source that says BK-5M was issued in 1960. The round before that I have as BK-354M HEAT with 280mm pen but I've also seen that described as BK-5., If anyone knows when BK-5M was first issued that would be helpful

"The 100 mm HEAT-FS BK-5 projectile was first issued during the 1950s. In its later BK-5M form it was carried by many T-54/T-55 tank units as a small proportion of the combat load, usually only three rounds out of a total load of 34 (T-54) or 43 (T-55). The BK-5M has been referred to as the ZBK-5M, although the complete round designation is 3UBK-4."

"The 100 mm HEAT-FS BK-5M has a muzzle velocity of 900 m/s. Although it can penetrate up to 380 mm of armour set at 0º and 190 mm set at 60º, it has been calculated that the hit probability against a static tank sized target at 1,000 m is only 43 per cent. At 2,000 m the hit probability is reduced to a negligible 2 per cent."

Originally Posted by DRG

As for BM-8 APDS I have that showing up in 1968 with penetration rated between 257 mm and 264 @ 1km and in game terms we get a closer representation with a 31 pen and 90 range
Since everyone looks for inconsistencies that may exist between one weapon in other OOBs and given that this gun is used in dozens of OOB's There are adjustments that need to be done in quite a few plus SPww2.

"The 100 mm HVAPDS-T UBM-6 was the main anti-armour round used by D-10 series guns from about 1968 onwards. It fired the main anti-armour projectile for the D-10 gun series until the belated introduction of the 100 mm APFSDS 3BM-2 projectile and its equivalents."

"The 100 mm HVAPDS-T BM-8 has a muzzle velocity of 1,400 to 1,415 m/s and is claimed to be able to penetrate 300 mm of vertical armour at the maximum effective direct fire range of 1,680 m."

[iCaMpWiThAWP]

Wasn't T72M the export one?
Were all t72 sold by russia to other countries designated "M" or "S"?(other than license built ones such as M-84 Degmen, produced on croatia)

[Marcello]

Originally Posted by iCaMpWiThAWP

Wasn't T72M the export one?
Were all t72 sold by russia to other countries designated "M" or "S"?(other than license built ones such as M-84 Degmen, produced on croatia)

OTOH the export T-72s came in the following variants.
1) Basic T-72: cast steel turret, optical rangefinder, made available since 1979.
2) T-72M: improved variant with LRF, new more accurate gun etc. Apparently it came in several subvariants with differences in items like glacis configuration, ammo capacity, presence of smoke dischargers etc. Most common export variant
3) T-72M1: essentially T-72M with better armor (composite turret, reinforced glacis)
4) T-72S: export variant of the T-72B, made available at the end of the cold war.

[Marcello]

Some additional nice to have albeit not essential modifications.

Unit 462 SF Section
Availability dates could be changed to 1/1986-4/2003

Unit 463 SF Section
Final availability date could be changed to to 4/2003

Unit 466 SF Section
Final availability date could be changed to 4/2003

Unit 721 SF Section
It could be rearmed with weapon n.7 renamed M16
Vision could be increased to 10

Unit 467 SF Section
Initial availability date could be changed to 1/1981
It should be rearmed with weapon n. 15 Rifle-Grenade (with 4-8 HE rounds) instead of weapon n. 124 40mm BG-15 GL.

Unit 468 SF Section
Initial availability date could be changed back to 1/1981
It could be with weapon n. 15 Rifle-Grenade (with 4-8 HE rounds) instead of weapon n. 124 40mm BG-15 GL

I have further checked the ordnance disposal reports. No ammunition for the BG-15 GL has turned up which means that either it was never used or it was a very limited issue. Thus as suggested in the recommendations above the numbers of units equipped with it would be reduced to reflect this.

A unit that could be added, using one of the few remaining available weapon slots
Unit 230: PIAT Team from OOB 7 Great Britain
Availability dates 1/1947-12/1959

Kurdish units and formations.
There is the question of what these units/formations would represent.
Ther kurds have operated as insurgents against the iraqi government, as the armed forces of Kurdistan, as iraqi security forces and combinations of the above depending on the period. As a consequence of this organization and character of the forces involved has varied from small guerrilla units to regular conventional forces.
In light of the above I suggest some modifications to bring them in line with the new iraqi security forces in order to represent, for example, the mountain units which are currently being formed. As alternative they could be reorganized along traditional kurdish guerrilla units but the modifications would be more extensive, as well as requiring date changes in units and formations.

Unit 790: Kurdish Squad
Weapon n. 121 in slot 3 could be replaced with weapon n. 18 RPG-7

Unit 792: Kurdish Squad
Reclassed as class 78 Partisan Band

Formation 720: Kurdish Platoon
Unit 791 in slot 4 should be replaced by unit 790

Formation 721: Kurdish Company
Unit n. 450 Scouts and Unit n. 804 2x60mm Mortars would replace Units 790 and 792 in slots 2 and 3

Unit 55-810: M40 Recoilless
Weapon AK47 Rifle could be replaced by weapon n.4 SKS Carbine. The AK-47 would be a bit too much out of place in the late 50’s. The SKS should be OK for most of the unit lifespan.

With this I have finished with the ground units. Next posts will be on the air units.

[Marcello]

The first post on iraqi air assets, some changes for aviation weapons and planes.

Weapon n.182: 12.7mm Gat
It could be be renamed 7.62mm TMP-5. This was a gun pod housing two 7.62mm machine guns and was the gun armament of choice for the western supplied helicopters and light turboprop attack planes.

Weapon n. 187: 23mm GSh-23L
It should be overwritten with weapon n.39 12.7mm (4) YaKB from OOB 11 Russia
Currently it equips only unit n. 125 Mi-25, but the iraqi Mi-25s actually carried the 12.7mmYaKB.

Weapon n. 194: 50kg Bomb could be overwritten with weapon n.195 100kg Bomb from russian OOB.

100kg bombs (FAB-100 and similar) were used in substantial numbers.Given the shortage of weapon slots I suggest overwriting weapon 194 because the 50kg bomb was.
a)Far less frequently used.
b)The units which are currently using it would have to be rearmed with something else anyway.

Weapon n. 245: 1000kg Bomb could be overwritten with weapon n.196 500lb Bomb from OOB 7 Great Britain.

The use of bombs of size greater than 500kg is not documented, that is not surprising as the iraqis had in their arsenals weapons that were hardly ever used, for various reasons. 500lb Bomb would be more useful in order to arm early british supplied planes.

Weapon n.199: HE Cluster Bomb
HE penetration should be reduced drastically.
The iraqis used several specialized antipersonnel cluster bombs, ranging from RBKs filled with HE bomblets to purpose built south african CB470 with bouncing submunitions. Such weapons would have only a very limited, if any, effect on armored targets.

Unit 129 Gladiator
It should be rearmed with two weapons 191 50lb Bomb, one in slot 2 and an other in slot 3
It seems logical that both bombs would have been dropped at the same time.

Unit 130: Fury FB.11
1)FC rating is too high, it should be lowered to 5 as it would be more consistent with aircrafts of that vintage.
2)It could be rearmed with two 500lb bombs, one in slot 2 and an other in slot 3

Unit 131: Beaufighter X
It could be deleted : one source mentions it but it seems it was a misreading of primary sources where transport planes were mistaken for Beaufighters. There is no other mention of it nor of any combat use.

Unit 133: DH-112
1) Bombs in slots 2-3-4 should be deleted and replaced with two weapon n.198 1000lb Bomb, one in slot 2 and an other in slot 3
2) Final availability date should be extended to 12/1967.
They still equipped a fighter squadron during the Six Days War, they were replaced only in 1968.

Sources for the above and the following posts are

Acig.org
In particular articles such as:
Iraqi Air Force Since 1948, Part 1
Iraqi Air Force since 1948, Part 2
I Persian Gulf War: Iraqi Invasion of Iran, September 1980
Fire in the Hills: Iranian and Iraqi Battles of Autumn 1982

Which can be found here

Arab Air Forces on 5 June 1967
Which can be found here

Arab MiG-19 and MiG-21 units in combat by Nicolle,Tom Cooper
Iraqi fighters 1953-2003: Camouflage & Markings (excerpts)
Plus various others sources.

[Marcello]

Unit 124: Mi-24
It should be deleted, Iraq did not get this version.

Unit 125: Mi-25
1) Initial availability date changed to 1/1980
2) Weapon n.145 Malyutka ATGM should be replaced with weapon n. 147 Falanga ATGM
3) Weapon n.185 2x 57mm S-5K in slots 2 and 3 replaced by weapon n. 186 4x 57mm S-5 with 16 HE rounds for each

A typical load would have been four UB-32 32 rounds rocket pods and Falanga ATGMs, as seen in this captured iraqi example.




Note also the standard 12,7mm gatling as gun armament; as noted previously iraqi Mi-24s did not carry 23mm guns.



Source for the pictures: http://www.fas.org

Unit 135 J-6
It has a wrong armament and is redundant, I suggest it to be deleted.

Unit 136: J-6
1) Availability date should be changed to 1/1983-12/1986
2) EW rating should be reduced to 0
3) Rocket ammo in slots 2-3 should be reduced from 5 to 4.
4) FC rating could be reduced to 7

The reduction in rocket ammo would make it consistent with four 8 rounds rocket pods, a typical MiG-19/J-6 load, or two UB-16 16 rounds pods. 57mm S-5 rockets were usually carried in pods with 8 16 or 32 rockets capacity. These were pretty spartan planes, lacking EW equipment and with a very short lifespan.

Unit 139: MiG-17D
1) Renamed MIG-17F (the iraqis got MiG-17F and MiG-17PF versions)
2) Availability dates could be changed to 1/1959-12/1973
3) It should be rearmed with two weapons n. 194, one in slot 3 and an other in slot 4.

Unit 140: MiG-17F
1) Final availability date restricted to 12/1973
2)Ammo load for weapon 186 4x 57mm S-5 in slot 3 would be reduced from 5 to 4 rounds, consistent with two pods carrying 8 rockets each.
3) Speed could be lowered to 11 (consistent with Unit 134 MiG-17F value in the Russian OOB)

Unit 141: MiG-17PF
1) Availability dates changed to 1/1959-12/1973
2) It could be rearmed with two weapon n. 196 250kg Bomb, one in slot 2 and an other in slot 3
3) Speed could be lowered to 11

Unit 142: MiG-19S
1) Rocket ammo in slots 2-3 should be reduced from 5 to 4.
2) Final availability date could be restricted to 12/1970 or 12/1973 (they were already being phased out in 1967)
3) FC rating could be reduced to 7

[Suhiir]

BTW Marcello, I'm monitoring this thread because I'm using Iraq as the primary opposition for the mini-campaign I'm making to go along with my USMC OOB release (to "showcase" the OOB changes AND let folks see how a "real" USMC battalion MEU is organized).
By chance are you making a revised Iraq OOB I could borrow/steal to use?