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August 23rd, 2010, 08:22 PM
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BANNED USER
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Re: Merkava.
Near the bottom of the site page I posted there are pics and some info on other IDF vehicles. Like the pic of a armored D9 dozer mounting a 50cal OWS. Those thing are BIG!
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September 1st, 2010, 12:59 AM
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Shrapnel Fanatic
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Re: Merkava.
Really ? " Fully armed" ? A fully armed Mk III holding the crew AND 13 wounded Israeli troops in one trip ? I'd like to see a photo of that.
We had an Isreli tanker posting her for a while. It would be interesting to hear from someone who's actually crewed one of these things.
Don
Last edited by DRG; September 1st, 2010 at 01:20 AM..
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September 1st, 2010, 12:35 PM
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Re: Merkava.
DRG,
It's all on the site I posted on page 1 of this thread.
Here is the pic from the site of the tank in question. The Crew are in front, the rescued men are sitting on the tank. Just count.
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September 1st, 2010, 12:44 PM
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BANNED USER
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Re: Merkava.
Also from the same site.
"At first during the 1990's Lebanon conflict, Merkava I & II crews would carry as much as 92 105mm rounds into combat unless they
carried troops in which case they would carry 47 rounds and up to 10 combat troops. Now with a slightly larger tank in the Mark III &
IV series they can carry 50 rounds of 120mm main gun ammo and an 8 man combat platoon into combat. This would still be 10 more
120mm rounds than a current Leopard 2, LeClerc, Chally or Abrams M1A2 SEP (improved) carries in NATO exercises. Even LESS
aboard a French LeClerc in UN Lebanon service BTW."
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September 1st, 2010, 04:16 PM
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Captain
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Re: Merkava.
Well, the way that website is organized is a festering sore for sure. Frankly most of pictures simply refuse to load on my browser, so I have to withold my judgement.
That said with statements worded like this...
Quote:
It should be noted that it is a ballistic military fact a MBT can not be destroyed, not even by one's own Air Force and artillery and even when it is on purpose!
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One can be forgiven if he starts looking for the closest pinch of salt

(OK not an IV but still...)
If you can post the pictures showing the internal arrangement of the rear compartment we can get a better idea. Preferibly one with both ammo and troops if available.
In tank design there is not such a thing such as free lunch. Increased volume must mean either inferior protection or greater weight, basic geometry at work here.
Perhaps they decided they wanted both an APC level of troop carrying capacity, good armor and 40+ rounds at the same time.
In principle you can centainly have that.
But then I would expect a very steep penalty in terms of weight for that, certainly those early rumors I heard about 90 tons Merkava IV would start to sound a lot more sensible in this case.
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September 1st, 2010, 04:59 PM
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Re: Merkava.
Marcello,
The site takes forever to load but is worth the wait.
The statement you refer to sounds very far feched and your photos prove the point.
I belive the author was writing about a Merkava that had to be abandon in Lebanon. The Israelis did not whan the vehicle to fall into enemy hands. Fearing that it might despite their efforts a mission was sent out to strip the vehicle of everything that could be stripped. They kept a watchful eye on the remaining hulk to make sure it was not towed away before they themselves could do the same. To secure the vehicle the Israelis not only dropped artillery on that tank they also called in air strikes to keep enemy salvagers away from the wreck.
To top it all off, the remains of the tank were finnaly recovered and seeing that there was only minor damage to the hull that tank was re-built.
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September 4th, 2010, 06:04 AM
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Major
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Re: Merkava.
The described 1973 scene is a bit of old PR trick  The soldiers were fully armed, not fully kitted, and the same with Merkava used.
Otherwise IDF would have to either employ exceptionally small soldiers, or warp time and space, or would not fight a long design battle around how many soldiers would fit into Namer.
Shermans were also used to transport numerous soldiers to a besieged unit on Okinawa and to evacuae he wounded, the record was IIRC something like 12 soldiers beng caried on one trip, but that does hardly make the Sherman an APC - and it certainly wasn't combat-capable in such a configuration.
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This post, as well as being an ambassador of death for the enemies of humanity, has a main message of peace and friendship.
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September 4th, 2010, 08:52 AM
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General
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Re: Merkava.
While the Merk is being looked at & I have no idea what they represent but assume 60 vision is radar etc. Should therefore only the lead tank in the company have 60 vision as its equiped with the sensor tower.
Kevin no one is I think disputing it can carry soldiers & the fuel tank post was sort of right fuel is normaly placed so it functions as additional armour as its fairly effective esp vs HEAT.
The question is if the tank can operate effectivly with troops on board & if it is used that way or just as a convienent way to ferry troops in the rear area.
If ginger tanker does not come back might try asking on israeli defence forums & see if anybodys willing to divulge anything.
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September 4th, 2010, 01:08 PM
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BANNED USER
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Re: Merkava.
Marek_Tucan
The Sherman carried most of those troops on the OUTSIDE of the vehicle. With all those bodies strewn across the hull the tanks weapons would have been useless.
The Merk in Question went into a combat zone under fire. Provided it's own fire support while recovering 13 wounded that were placed INSIDE the tank. It then covered it's own retreat with fire from its own weapons. Tight fit? Yes! Impossible? No!
Also, every video I have seen of troops leaving the rear hatch of the Merkava in training or combat situations are in "full kit" including backpack and other gear.
Imp,
Durring Israels last incursion into Lebanon the use of ANY APC was almost impossible because of the large amount of RPG and ATGM possesed by Hesbola. These light vehicles were only used as taxi cabs to deploy infantry well away from the front lines unless the area was deemed clear of enemy anti-tank weapons. In more than one site examples can be found showing that the Merkava tank was used as a heavy APC to transport full armed and equipped soldiers to the battle areas of the combat zone. As many as 10 troops were stuffed into these vehicles and they carried 50 rounds of 120mm Ammo.
I realy don't think for one second that they would send tanks with infantry inside but carry little or no ammo to support them once deployed. that would be just stupid.
Please read my last post again.
The MkIs and IIs could carry 92 rounds of 105mm ammo, or 62 rounds of 105mm ammo and up to 10 fully equipped combat troops.
The rear compartment of all Merkavas have 8 seats in the back. The two extra soldiers are carried in the space where the stretcher cases would be carried between the two rovs of seats. Their troops are equiped with Knee pads and other protective gear just like many other Nations troops are.
Is it a comfortable ride? Not likely. But its not only possible, it was done.
There is on version of the Merk that has a lower Main Gun ammo loadout. Its the "Tankbulance". This version looks just like anyother Merkava tank in current production but the rear troop compartment has been modified to carry...
2-3 stretcher cases
a 3 man medical team ( MD and 2 assistants)
and an operating theater with a full compliment of life support equipment.
With all that and it can still fight as a MBT if it has to.
I would post the pics to prove my point but I keep gettin the Error message because the files are to big. Most are on the site I posted on Page 1. Take your time, find the pics and video links and watch them. It will open your eyes.
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September 4th, 2010, 01:16 PM
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BANNED USER
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Re: Merkava.
DRG,
With 10 troops even the site says they are packed in very tight. I would be more than happy with a 8 troop capacity. Like I said before, it has 8 seats in the back.
Heavy weapons would have to be restricted. No TOW teams for example.
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