OT: US Pres election

[Azselendor]

The only person that needs to be blamed for any hike in taxes is Bush.

Doesn't matter who wins, the next president MUST raise taxes. It's not a future I like, but it's the end result of unrestrained liberal spending by the republican party. A government unable to raise revenue is doomed.

As for vast generalizations, I'll point out lumping people in one group never serves anything. Us vs. them doesn't get anywhere.

This is what blows my mind about America today. Here we are, fighting a war that for the first time in half a century has landed clear blows on American soil and spilled American Blood on American Soil, and we are busy trying to rip out each other's jugular or disembowel the other first of pure silliness. Really, did the civil war end? Did the North win? because it seems like America can't decide if it's the Confederate States or United States.

Every one of your arguments can also be laid upon the republican party, the whigs, the federalist, and so on down the chain of history. Many of them are null designed to get the base up into a frenzy. John the Plumber, btw, isn't registered to vote and it's too late for him to register so if he really cared about his taxes, he should've registered to vote. I have no sympathy for his fear of taxes.

And repeating political talking points doesn't make them true.

Obama is a good man, but he is a dangerous man. With a super liberal majority in congress, a willing pro-liberal controlled media, and a proven far left leaning Obama in office, we won't see an awakening of a prosperous future, but rather one that will usher in the end of one.

This I take exception at as very few americans can now look back at the last 8 years and say we've had a prosperous future compared the the 8 that preceded that.



Let's face facts, America right now is weak. We face a crumbling economy, federal debts that won't be paid off for another century (counting only principle) a corrupt government, a divided nation against itself, China is only getting stronger, the russian military has reconstituted itself but couldn't find its missing nukes if their lives depended on it, we can't scare north korea, the UN is crippled by an outdated cold-war setup , and a global energy and climate crisis.

So really, is America strong enough to face these challenges and see Victory?

We are entering a long and hard period of reconstruction that may not succeed. We need someone who has laid out a plan and been consistant, not someone who throws ideas against the wall in the hopes something might stick and drops what he's doing to leap for a photo up.

[Atrocities]

Azselendor you do a very effective job of countering my comments. It is a pleasure as always to read your posts. While I am swayed to agree with you on a few items there are a couple that I need to offer counter points to.

The only person that needs to be blamed for any hike in taxes is Bush.

Bush shouldn't become the scape goat for the fools who are really to blame. Most of which were fired and hired in 06. Those are the real asshats that are behind this. Bush has had no real power since 06.

Doesn't matter who wins, the next president MUST raise taxes. It's not a future I like, but it's the end result of unrestrained liberal spending by the republican party. A government unable to raise revenue is doomed.

For the record the US economy grew more under Bush than it did Clinton. That is a verifiable fact of reality. This whole economic situation that we are now in is as much to blame on the failed democratic policies as it is on republican ones. For one, Bush inherited an economy that was going into the tank following 8 years of Clintonomic. Remember black Friday in October of 97? Two, this whole sub prime loan fiasco could have been resolved in 05, but NO, it was blocked by elements of both parties in control. Three, although Bush is the president, the Democrats have had control of Congress for the last two years and have done NOTHING to stem the tide when they could have.

I believe that this whole melt down can be traced right back to rising oil prices. That is what started this disaster ball rolling. It was predicted by a mathmatician back in 1999. He stated that within 10 years the price for oil will be more than $100.00 per barrel. That when that happened the US economy, and that of the world, would fall into chaos. He proved this by math.

As the oil prices rose, people had less and less disposable income so they started to use their credit cards. Once those were maxed out they stopped paying their mortgages so they could eat, keep the car, buy gas, and keep the lights on. The price of oil kept going up, mostly because the oil companies were buying their own oil via the speculator market which they only stopped after Bush and Congress finally threatened to look into the speculator market at the behest of conservative talk radio hosts and angry Americans. People who had these sub prime mortgages were the ones that were hurt first, once they stopped paying their mortgage and their homes fell into foreclosure the banks that held the paper started to fail. The rest is history in the making.

Doesn't matter who wins, the next president MUST raise taxes. It's not a future I like, but it's the end result of unrestrained liberal spending by the republican party. A government unable to raise revenue is doomed.

I tend to agree with you in that tax increases are most likely going to happen. So why do both candidates keep saying they are going to cut taxes? Why not cut spending instead? And I hate to be the voice of reason all the time, but under Obama, government is poised to grow thus increasing the debt. In order to pay for his projects, taxes are going to have to be raised. And as we know, lower taxes fuel an economy, and higher taxes, especially in these times, stall the economy.

John the Plumber, btw, isn't registered to vote and it's too late for him to register so if he really cared about his taxes, he should've registered to vote.

Fact Check: "The Ohio press reports that he (Joe the Plumber) is in fact registered to vote, under a slightly misspelling of his name." The misspelling was due in part to a clerical error.

[lch]

Originally Posted by Atrocities

Bush shouldn't become the scape goat for the fools who are really to blame. Most of which were fired and hired in 06. Those are the real asshats that are behind this. Bush has had no real power since 06.

So he shouldn't be blamed that/because he had no real power?

I don't even know about the power thing. I mean, I see that man as incompetent and always mostly saw him as kind of a puppet from the start, yes. But for others, I'd think he just wasn't as prominently visible in the media, and thus less present.

Originally Posted by Azselendor

Doesn't matter who wins, the next president MUST raise taxes. It's not a future I like, but it's the end result of unrestrained liberal spending by the republican party. A government unable to raise revenue is doomed.

And that's what, I'd assume, will unfortunately be the perception about the next president and his party, whoever it may be. "Usurper, he was good for nothing, he raised our taxes!" It's bad if people don't understand that it is necessary and the carefree living that they had before wasn't really viable and showed its ugly downside in the end.

Originally Posted by Azselendor

Let's face facts, America right now is weak. We face a crumbling economy, federal debts that won't be paid off for another century (counting only principle) a corrupt government, a divided nation against itself, China is only getting stronger, the russian military has reconstituted itself but couldn't find its missing nukes if their lives depended on it, we can't scare north korea, the UN is crippled by an outdated cold-war setup , and a global energy and climate crisis.

Well, regardless what you do, you won't solve the climate crisis now even if you tried with all your might, you can only adapt and I hope that America will, same for global energy. As for North Korea, I see that one as a paper tiger. If there is one land that has hit rock bottom except Africa, then it's North Korea, I'd say, at least for the people that live there. I don't think they'll have the breath to continue like this that much longer.

[Atrocities]

I am willing to bet that North Korea is about to lift the current and join the world. They have nothing to loose and everything to gain. I hope North Korea announces today that they willing to work with everyone in putting the cold war to bed.

What I want to see is a person elected to office that won't abrogate our constitutional rights because the far left or right want them too. Despite all the nasty things Bush has been accused of, there lacks a genuine lack of proof as to his abuse of power. I do believe that he aloud himself to be manipulated and played and in turn was used as a tool to benefit people like Cheyenne and that bastard Dumbsfield.

[lch]

Originally Posted by Atrocities

What I want to see is a person elected to office that won't abrogate our constitutional rights because the far left or right want them too. Despite all the nasty things Bush has been accused of, there lacks a genuine lack of proof as to his abuse of power.

What do you call the USA PATRIOT Act, then? Or maybe I misunderstood those sentences? And I may probably be biased, but it was my impression that Bush was the one that wanted the Iraq war most and it was mainly his initiative and determination to carry through with this, it wasn't somebody else who pressured him into that. We don't have to discuss that thing again, though, good that we got over it.

[Edratman]

Atrocities, you are most likely correct about Bush being maniplated by his subordinates.

However, the captain of the ship is the one who is solely responsible for the well being of the ship. If the ship runs aground in the middle of the night, the captain is held responsible, even if he was soundly sleeping at what is a normal sleep period. Others will also accrue punishments, but the man in charge is ultimately held responsible.

If everything was sunny and rosy, I'm sure Bush would be the first one to claim the credit, even if the good times were the result of actions by subordinates. So all the blame should also fall on his shoulders.

I would like to hear someone, anyone, admit to being responsible for the present crisis. That's probably not going to happen. Republicans blame democrats, Democrats blame Republicans: the wealthy blame the poor, the poor blame the wealthy: and so on.

The economists are now busy finding the faults in their reasoning; yet not one will admit that economics is merely a pseudo-science and all the equations that they pass off as science were developed so that they fit past numbers. Then they use the self same numbers to verify the accuracy of their equations.

I really have no idea what the future holds, but I'll make one prediction.

At some point the world economy will revive, the politicans will lie to us some more and the poor will always be downtrodden.

[thejeff]

And it is again somewhat misleading to claim that

Bush has had no real power since 06.

and

although Bush is the president, the Democrats have had control of Congress for the last two years and have done NOTHING to stem the tide when they could have.

The Democratic majority in Congress, especially in the Senate, is slim. Bush has threatened or wielded his veto pen against pretty much anything the Democrats have tried. And the Republicans in the Senate have stood firm together and ensured that any Democratic bills have needed 60 votes overcome a filibuster. Often the Democratic leadership, not being able to enact their own solutions and believing that something must be done, has brought the White House's proposals to the floor and allowed them to pass with a majority of Republican and a few Democratic votes.
A president with a strong minority in Congress is hardly powerless, especially one who has expanded the power of the executive as no administration since Nixon has tried to do. And one who seems willing to play chicken with the welfare of the country to avoid any compromise.

[Atrocities]

Originally Posted by thejeff

And it is again somewhat misleading to claim that

and

The Democratic majority in Congress, especially in the Senate, is slim. Bush has threatened or wielded his veto pen against pretty much anything the Democrats have tried. And the Republicans in the Senate have stood firm together and ensured that any Democratic bills have needed 60 votes overcome a filibuster. Often the Democratic leadership, not being able to enact their own solutions and believing that something must be done, has brought the White House's proposals to the floor and allowed them to pass with a majority of Republican and a few Democratic votes.
A president with a strong minority in Congress is hardly powerless, especially one who has expanded the power of the executive as no administration since Nixon has tried to do. And one who seems willing to play chicken with the welfare of the country to avoid any compromise.

You are correct and I suspect that this will be why the Republicans will be resoundingly beaten in two weeks. Lets face it, we dropped the ball more than once and now its time to pay the price for our failures. I am a moderate independent with a leaning tendency toward the right mainly because I value equal points of view, the second amendment, and the truth. Both sides lie very well, but both sides have good values. while I often attack the liberals I do share many of their ideals. I believe that we have the right to choose our time of death, I believe firmly that people have the right under the law to equal representation, the right to share in life and life choices equally under the law, the right to choose for ourselves what is right for us. Protection for gay couples equally under the law as given to married heterosexuals. I believe in protecting our environment, providing for the needy, health care for all, even helping illegal immigrants to become tax paying US citizens. Hell I believe it is our duty to provide protection to all who enter our country, be that putting up aid and water stations in the desert with the absolute promise that any who use these facilities shall be aloud to do so without fear, to providing health care to any who need it. I believe that our government should never lie to us, and that the best feeling in the world is the greats gift God has given us, and that is to help our fellow human beings. I value the constitution and as I have stated many times, the first and second amendments above all. I am proud that we live in a nation that has forsaken its ugly past and unified its people under one flag equally without preconditions. I love the fact that while I often get angry over what I believe to be injustices, we live in a just society and with the right leadership can do more, become more, and be more than what we are.

However, the captain of the ship is the one who is solely responsible for the well being of the ship. If the ship runs aground in the middle of the night, the captain is held responsible, even if he was soundly sleeping at what is a normal sleep period. Others will also accrue punishments, but the man in charge is ultimately held responsible.

You are 100% correct. The buck stops at that desk and the person sitting behind it should butch up and take the heat. So many things were done wrong over the last 16 years that it makes the next 16 years seem like an insurmountable hurtle. But with any luck, we will come through this better than when we went into it.

[Azselendor]

the USA Patrtiot act is the greatest piece of gun control legislation EVER written. Think about it. It gives the president and government unprecedented powers and no one really bothered to oppose it -hell, read it- until after it was passed into law.

The jeff is absolutely right, the Democrats, lacking the ability to build a super majority or coalition in the government, were left at the mercy of the filibuster. I have to appauld the founding fathers for that as it is a great tool of the minority to defend itself against the majority (who whould be protecting the interests of the minority as well as their own. Now thanks to the failure of the Bush Administration, the democrats are damned close to having a super majority and with the economy going down faster then the hindenberg, many republicans are willing to break with GOP rank and file to save their necks in the next election on 2010 (senate/house)

I'm looking at your John McCain. He says maverick. I say oppurtunisic waffle.

As for bush being an idiot, I sincerely hope no one believes he is incompetent. I believe his country yokel act is merely an act. Yes, he commits faux pas, but everyone has too. He just happens to have cameras crammed up every part of his body to catch it for the evening news.

Edratman is very right. If he's will to claim all the credit for sunny days, he deserves the credit when it rains. For example, saying bush isn't responsible for the actions of those under him is like saying heinrich himmler isn't responsible for the holocaust.

On North Korea, I don't think we'll see that communist regime fall anytime soon. We've seen multiple generations raised under that and when people are raised into a particular ideology, it gets hard to break. As long as china props them up, we can't hope to see things change there.

[Atrocities]

Oh dear, sorta kinda bad news for Obama. Read Looks like he is a socialist. Signed the paper work any ways.

Newspaper shows Obama belonged to socialist party
Democrat's campaign denied allegations, but new evidence indicates membership

At this point I say who the hell cares any more? I am very thankful that soon all of this will be over and we can get back to being mad about important things like our games not arriving on time, or whether to order a Pizza with mushrooms or not. Our voices are never heard over the roar of those with big money and hidden agenda's. So in the end our votes mean about as much in the grand electoral scheme of things as a fart in the wind, and they last about as long.