OT: Recommendations?

[Starfighter08]

Originally posted by Taqwus:
And remember to think like an Orlanthi, instead of min-maxing or adhering too much to modern sensibilities. [/QB]

Agree. About KoDP and the advice how to play it.

[Bossemanden]

Originally posted by Arryn:
(On Sunday I was in a local Ebgames store and saw yet another, new, EU-engine game by Paradox, dealing with just France and England.) Strategy First/Paradox is to strategy gaming as Hasbro/WotC/TSR is to pen & paper gaming.

Not correct. Two thrones is not a EU engine derivative. On the other hand, the coming Crusader kings that deals only with Europe 1066-1419 is.

And EU2/HOI has no more provinces to deal with than Dom2 does when using very large maps.

Not correct. IIRC both EU2 and HOI has more than a 1000 provinces, with Victoria having significantly more. AFAIK Dom2 has a limit of 500.

Couple with the fact that Dom2 has more complex unit interactions than EU2 does. Only HOI can approach the complexity of Dom2 unit interactions. And the HOI AI, while having more "work" to do each "turn", doesn't play "worse" than EU2, which is a simpler model. So explanations such as time available or model complexity simply do not wash for EU2. The EU-engine games simply suffer from an AI with weak internal algorithms, and no amount of excuses can alter that fact. The Dom2 engine isn't better because it has a "simpler" model. It's better because it's been coded to be better. It manages resources better, it evaluates the strategic situation better, and conducts combat better than Paradox's AI does in comparable circumstances (and yes, you can rig up comparable situations, despite EU-engined games being continuous-time).

Peter has refuted this nicely. Suffice to say that I disagree with you.
Edit: (Apparently I´ll say more ) The continous time vs. turnbased introduces a higher level of complexity as well. This means that algorithms must attempt to do more with less resources, not just the same amount of work with less resources.

Even more annoying in EU is not the brain-dead overstacking but the "mouse that roared" syndrome when some piddly little country will suddenly, for no discernable reason, declare war on a "superpower". I see this in Victoria too.

Correct and this is a weakness. On the other hand you might find this very same thing in Dominions as well.

[ March 10, 2004, 09:22: Message edited by: Bossemanden ]

[Karacan]

Independent? Black Isle has always been a wholly owned subsidiary of Interplay, to my knowledge. I loved the story of PS:T, perhaps more than any other RPG around...but I hated the combat and the lack of creation and development options for your main character.

Yes, I know it's not independent. Sorry, but always when I am supposed to suggest any sort of games, Torment always creeps up. I love the way you create your character ingame actually.

Check out Avernum, if you can bear past-age graphics but value gameplay and storytelling, it's excellent. I can't wait for Blades of Avernum.

Ah, yes, and I love Kohan as well... what a great little gem due to it's gameplay. Finally a RTS that rewards moderately slow skill over quick button pushing.

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Bossemanden:

quote:

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Originally posted by Arryn:
Couple with the fact that Dom2 has more complex unit interactions than EU2 does. Only HOI can approach the complexity of Dom2 unit interactions. And the HOI AI, while having more "work" to do each "turn", doesn't play "worse" than EU2, which is a simpler model. So explanations such as time available or model complexity simply do not wash for EU2. The EU-engine games simply suffer from an AI with weak internal algorithms, and no amount of excuses can alter that fact. The Dom2 engine isn't better because it has a "simpler" model. It's better because it's been coded to be better. It manages resources better, it evaluates the strategic situation better, and conducts combat better than Paradox's AI does in comparable circumstances (and yes, you can rig up comparable situations, despite EU-engined games being continuous-time).

Peter has refuted this nicely. Suffice to say that I disagree with you.

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Actually, both you and Peter ignored this particular point. I've reduced the discussion to apples-vs.-apples, comparing two games using the same engine, to illustrate my point and help you to focus on the real issue. To reiterate, EU2 has a simpler "model" than HOI (therefore less work to do in each timeslice) and yet the EU2 AI plays as a much "dumber" opponent than the HOI AI. If your argument about limitations of a continuous-time engine were valid as an excuse for the poor AI behavior, then EU2 should play a stronger game than HOI as it has more time to "think" about each choice it makes per cycle than HOI's AI does. This comparison showcases the inherent weakness of the AI algorithms itself, and not limitations imposed by the turn mechanism.

The root problem with the EU-engined games isn't *caused* by their continuous-time nature. It's more fundamental. The problem would still exist if the games were turn-based. Continuous-time just exacerbates an already weak AI.

Finally, as you have admitted, continuous-time could never justify brain-dead behavior such as massive overstacking or stupid war declarations (just to name the two most obvious flaws these games *still* have after *years* of patches). That's just bad logic. Which, as I contend, extends all the way to the core of the games.

[Teraswaerto]

If you have NWN, you should try Shadowlords(1-5), and it's sequel Dreamcatcher(1-4) by Adam Miller. If you don't have NWN, you should get it just to be able to play these.

[ March 10, 2004, 14:05: Message edited by: Teraswaerto ]

[Arryn]

Originally posted by fahdiz:
Black Isle has always been a wholly owned subsidiary of Interplay, to my knowledge.

They *were*. Now Black Isle simply no longer exists. Interplay laid off the entire staff ...

[Tricon]

Mmh. Most games i like to play have already been mentioned.

If graphics aren't your main concern, I would check out the underdog site www.the-underdogs.org.
They have tons really good classics. If you like rpg's try Wasteland, which has still a very loyal following even though it's from 1987.


On a side note: I really enjoy EU II and Victoria, the community is pretty good , too. My recomendation: get'em play'em. The money is not wasted.

[fahdiz]

Originally posted by Arryn:

quote:

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Originally posted by fahdiz:
Black Isle has always been a wholly owned subsidiary of Interplay, to my knowledge.

They *were*. Now Black Isle simply no longer exists. Interplay laid off the entire staff ...

---

Heh. I followed that sordid mess as well. Actually "Black Isle" - as a brand - still exists...it's simply no longer populated with the people who made those great CRPGs. Interplay has said that they will continue to release games under the "Black Isle" label, when they feel it's "worthy" of the distinction.

But then again, they felt Lionheart was worthy of the name...and that was the most God-awful rushed-together mess of an RPG that I've played in many a year.

[fahdiz]

Originally posted by Tricon:
Mmh. Most games i like to play have already been mentioned.

If graphics aren't your main concern, I would check out the underdog site www.the-underdogs.org.
They have tons really good classics. If you like rpg's try Wasteland, which has still a very loyal following even though it's from 1987.


On a side note: I really enjoy EU II and Victoria, the community is pretty good , too. My recomendation: get'em play'em. The money is not wasted.

I played Wasteland so much on my old 8088 that I broke the arrow keys.

I guess what I'm looking for (and I suppose I should have been clearer, since I've gotten a lot of these types of responses) is not so much old classics (as I've been a computer/board/pen-and-paper gamer for a long time) but more the "relatively recently-released, unknown/unsung, unjustly ignored" types of games. I do thank you for the suggestion, though. A few years back I purchased Interplay's giant RPG collection just so I could play Wasteland again.

On another note, I tried the King of Dragon Pass tour, the Ur-Quan Masters game, and the Star Empires IV demo Last night. I LOVED KoDP (was already a Hero Wars fan, but knew nothing about KoDP) and will probably end up plunking down for it. I enjoyed Ur-Quan (great music in the remixes, too). And SEIV was just fantastic.

The jury's still out on EU2/Victoria, it seems. There's obviously a great deal of different opinion surrounding Paradox's games. Why in the world won't they release demos, so that prospective buyers like me might have an opportunity to check them out?

[ March 10, 2004, 15:05: Message edited by: fahdiz ]

[Arryn]

Originally posted by fahdiz:
Heh. I followed that sordid mess as well. Actually "Black Isle" - as a brand - still exists...it's simply no longer populated with the people who made those great CRPGs. Interplay has said that they will continue to release games under the "Black Isle" label, when they feel it's "worthy" of the distinction.

But then again, they felt Lionheart was worthy of the name...and that was the most God-awful rushed-together mess of an RPG that I've played in many a year.

It's insane that they lay off the talent that made Black Isle/Interplay famous and then try to sell the Fallout license. What good is a license without the people? Who yanks the engine out of a car (leaving the car without one) before they sell the car? Idiots!

I bought Lionheart solely on the Black Isle name. My mistake.

The only top-tier developer that's still putting out consistently good games is Bioware. Everyone else is catering to the console crowd.