OT - Strategy games with GOOD AI

[TheDemon]

It seems to be a constant problem with AI in complex TBS games that they never have an overall strategic plan that ends in winning the game. I can't say I've seen any really competent AIs, but Civ 4 Beyond the Sword on the higher difficulty levels can be challenging and the AIs will eventually focus on a certain type of win (often its spaceship though, which they're not that good at, but I've seen AIs going for cultural wins I've lost a fair share of games because the AI beat me militarilly). Admittedly it gives the AIs a rather massive handicap on the difficulties that are challenging.

[NTJedi]

Originally Posted by DakaSha

Dominions 3 is of course the hands down best strategy game ever created but the ai is also hands down brain dead...

During the years I've made several attempts to address several of the major AI issues in Dominions, but rarely any luck.

Originally Posted by DakaSha

Does anybody know of a good strategy game with some good AI that i havnt heard of? I doubt it as i think ive played them all :P but one can never know...

Unfortunately most developers place small amounts of value on the AI... or sometimes even less. First, the AI developing is one of the most complex features in a game. Second, most developers are only interested in being on the team which improves graphics or designs the user interface because during a future job interview it's easier to display what visuals you've provided as compared with what AI strategies you've developed. So unfortunately anything AI usually gets the short end of the developers time stick.

Originally Posted by DakaSha

... ... ai is just not as good as its made out to be.. ive seen it do the most retarded stuff...

anything else??

There is some hope coming in a future TBS game called Elemental:War of Magic, where the AI can be modded by the gaming community. So even if the original game has the usual unsatisfactory AI... with time it will gradually be improved by the community.
I'm on the beta testing team for Elemental:War of Magic... so I'll be working towards making sure the game basics are stable. While I'm very pleased with the work from Illwinter, I was disappointed with the beta testers of Dominions_3.

[LDiCesare]

Second, most developers are only interested in being on the team which improves graphics or designs the user interface because during a future job interview it's easier to display what visuals you've provided as compared with what AI strategies you've developed.

I am not so sure. I worked in a game company and know several developpers who worked on ai in other game companies. The devs would usually like to create a good ai, because it's an interesting problem.
However, playtesters tended to complain if the ai was too good (hard) in some games. The difficulty of the ai is aimed at casual players, and developping something more elaborate would only be interesting for a small part of the market, and cost a lot to develop.
Galciv had a better than average ai, and Elemental probably will, because the CEO codes it himself because it's his pet peeve. Opening the code can of course leads to even better ai, as Civ IV showed. I have good expectations for Elemental too.

[Humakty]

TW games (medieval 2, rome) AI is among the most retarded I've ever seen : generals charging pike walls (with the rest of their army waiting backward...) ; full stack militia when they can recruit elite units ; units piled at a bottleneck, like gates, blocking each otherwhile you shoot at them... The list is long, and modding only very partially changes that, most mods only add more gold for the AI, along with similar 'cheats'.

[DakaSha]

I find that even the modded CivIV ai is moronic... it still cheats and just builds 15 units (literally.. somtimes more) to defend its citys while NEVER starting wars... i love how wars dont even begin till 500AD...

Ive been playing GalCiv2 again and have to admit that the AI is definetly the best ive played against. Im playing on medium maps which makes a big difference i think (i was playong on the really big maps before)

[sector24]

I think the GalCiv AI gets exponentially better on the smaller maps for obvious reasons. Although a part of loves the huge maps, I found the smallest map setting to be the most challenging/interesting.

[LDiCesare]

Originally Posted by DakaSha

I find that even the modded CivIV ai is moronic... it still cheats and just builds 15 units (literally.. somtimes more) to defend its citys while NEVER starting wars... i love how wars dont even begin till 500AD...

Strange. With aggressive ai on, which should always be the case, the ai is somewhat aggressive. Not as much as a human, but it will strike early if it feels its neighbour is weak, akthough it depends a lot on the personality (Gandhi will hardly ever attack for instance).

[goodgimp]

It's RTS, not TBS, but try Supreme Commander: Forged Alliance WITH the SorianAI mod. You wanna see a good AI, check that out! Represents a couple years of work by a modder to get the AI in shape, and while it's not perfect (no AI) is, it's still very competent.

[sevenwarlocks]

Since no one has mentioned it - I thought the AI was pretty good in Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri. The problem of the AI disintegrating on large maps was there, to be sure, but on small maps, the AI could be surprising, and when it started a war with you, it usually had the troops to make for a serious invasion. The AI in SMAC seemed better than the AI in Civ4, to be sure, where the AI really doesn't even know how to effectively use different kinds of units in combination.

If I could change the AI of all games in one major way it would be this: the AI should not know which player is the human. Frankly, having an AI bulk itself up with extra units seems a less egregious form of cheating to me. If game designers followed this rule, I believe it would force them to design AI's that could generate competant game-plans, rather than just design a sort of collusion to make the game feel "balanced".

I say this because to have an effective plan, an AI need not be perfect, or even extremely complicated. The most important thing is that the AI have some plan. By which, I mean, a long-range plan that it will stick to - at least for a time. AI's that react on a turn by turn basis will never be effective. As a chess-master once said - it is better to have a bad plan than no plan at all.

[SlipperyJim]

Originally Posted by LDiCesare

Strange. With aggressive ai on, which should always be the case, the ai is somewhat aggressive. Not as much as a human, but it will strike early if it feels its neighbour is weak, akthough it depends a lot on the personality (Gandhi will hardly ever attack for instance).

Agreed. Here's a checklist for good AI in Civ4:

1. Are you playing Beyond the Sword?
2. Have you installed the 3.19 patch, which includes some AI improvements?
3. Have you enabled Aggressive AI?

Please note that Aggressive AI is sort of a double-edged sword. It encourages the AIs to build more troops, which definitely gives them a better chance against bloodthirsty humans. On the other hand, all of those troops can cause the AIs to fall behind in other areas, especially tech. A dedicated science fiend could have an advantage over Aggressive AI by simply out-teching the AI until he can send Riflemen against Longbowmen.

Off-topic a bit, but if you enjoy Civ4:BtS, then you should definitely try the BUG or BAT mods:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/forumdisplay.php?f=268

BUG stands for "Beyond the Sword Unaltered Gameplay". It doesn't add new nations, units, techs, or other content. Instead, BUG improves the user interface. It includes a lot of great alerts to minimize the micromanagement. BUG also serves up a lot of information to the player. Civ4 will show you all of this information by default, but you usually have to go clicking through half-a-dozen screens every turn in order to find it. BUG saves you the work.

BAT is simply BUG with a number of graphical enhancements. It makes a pretty game look even prettier.