cheapest summonable thug

[Jarkko]

Baalz guide is excellent, there is no question about that. He points out well that the key is to have something economic who can survive long enough to dish out proper damage. A thug has to survive long enough to be able to deal enough damage to break the enemy, I think that is the message of his guide.

However, Baalz does mention only briefly of the possibility of using thugs with armies. Perhaps it is too obvious to be mentioned more thoroughly, but some people seem to forget those friendly troopers on the field *also* makes the thug live longer. Why waste gems on crowd-control items, if you intend to use the thug as a defensive damage dealer who operates from behind friendly PD, or some tough body-guards who can take lots of damage?

A spesific thug is not the answer to all possible questions or problems. Thus making blanket statements such as "Don't equip unit with XXX with any other items - it's just a waste of gems" just simply don't float. If that item on that spesific thug for that spesific task becomes considerably better with another item, then you are wasting your gems if you do not equip that other item too. Why waste gems on something that does not work, when you could make it much better with a few more gems?

The thing to consider is the bang for the bucks, so to say. If you think something is not worth it, then don't use that. If that something keeps winning you battle after battle, then I for one believe it to be very much worth it.

You can also counter any given set-up with something else. But when the question is cheap thugs, then you don't really attempt to prove the counter is an airdropping SC spesifically tooled to kill that one thug, do you? Of course he would be, thugs are not super-combatants. But if you forced your enemy to spesifically tool up a SC to take out a thug, then who was the smart one? Isn't that exactly the time when you bring on your SC-hunting thug, and maybe, just maybe, you could use it to your advantage if you know your opponent will retaliate with a SC or somebody able to cast Flamestorm?

For me the most important thing about Baalz thug-guide is that you have to think outside the box, and there are some excellent examples. But if you quote that as if it was the holy book, and all thoughts outside the guide are heretic, then perhaps *you* should read Baalz Art of Thugging again?

[WingedDog]

Jarkko
1) Too many letters, what's your point? You winning battle after the battle because your bola-wielding commanders equipped with boots of strength and bear claw, and you wouldn't win those battles if they were not equipped with it?

2)

Originally Posted by Jarkko

But if you quote that as if it was the holy book, and all thoughts outside the guide are heretic, then perhaps *you* should read Baalz Art of Thugging again?

Perhaps *you* should read the thread before posting. We are talking about supporters behind the army. I'm not going to airdrop SC on Sleeper with 2 bolas, boots of strength and bear claw, PD will kill him.

3) I never positioned Baalz guides as a holy book or something like that, I just recommended it for reading.

[Jarkko]

Originally Posted by WingedDog

1) Too many letters, what's your point?

Ok, lets try with less words, if words are so difficult:
You can not make blanket statements that something never works under any condition.

Was that still too many words?

I'm not going to airdrop SC on Sleeper with 2 bolas, boots of strength and bear claw, PD will kill him.

Besides very next turn same abysians could cast Fire Storm, or, if enemy has strong death - darkness with hordes of undead, or airdrop few thugs, or SC with Solar Brilliance, etc

Somebody else using your account to post things while you look the other way? You spesifically said you will use a SC or an Evocation9 spell to take out a cheap thug, no mentioning of PD there

[WingedDog]

Jarkko

Why do you even post a comment if you do not bother to read the discussion?

I repeat my question, since my "blanket statement" was all about it:

What's your point? You winning battle after the battle because your bola-wielding commanders equipped with boots of strength and bear claw, and you wouldn't win those battles if they were not equipped with it?

[Fantomen]

What's your point? You winning battle after the battle because your bola-wielding commanders equipped with boots of strength and bear claw, and you wouldn't win those battles if they were not equipped with it?

Yes, actually this is what I'm saying. But only early game against the right opposition of course. I wouldn't use it after I've got better research done, but that is true for many tactics so...

[militarist]

It's really quite strange to here that some strategy never worth using under any conditions.

Let model a hypothetical situation. You have forge of ancients,good gem income. You have a lot of researches who eat all your budget (you spend remains on hiring bloodhunters) and you want them to continue research instead of fighting. You are advanced with research (you can reach all 9 levels before starting any war). You can not create an army. You have very strong casters. But you can't use casters with no chaff. Partially chaff can be done by blood if you have it. But if not, or not enough?
One of ideas is just cast dragon masters and dozens of dozens of dragons.
The idea can be to create a second line, who does some damage and also have blocking function with these bolas. Of course not 4+ sleepers, but 20+ and maybe quickened by water magic, and maybe even given some additional equipment which is cheaper with forge. I don't know if it works and if it can be countered harder or easier in comparison to equipping indie commanders with rods of phoenix + penetration items though. But in reality if we think where to spend fire gems on items..mayby massed bolas still have some function as a blocker? High prot/MR thughs can also be an option, but if you play against nation which has good access to soul slay, i'm not sure you can rely just on fat thugs to hold the line. And just do cast dragons for second and third line also doesn't sound like the optimal strategy.

I mean midgame battle where hundreads of units are taking part in a battle from each side

[WingedDog]

Fantomen
I understand your point of view, though I still think your commanders with just two bolas would work as good. But again, I'm only telling my opinion.

Mysterio
That archer is an exception.

militarist
I'm not telling using bolas is wrong, I'm telling unit using bolas doesn't need additional equipment IMO. You put a lot of gems in your tactic, mass scouts with bolas would be much cheaper and would still work as blockers.

[Mysterio]

Originally Posted by WingedDog

Mysterio
That archer is an exception.

Really? So the only commander capable of firing twice when equipped with Boots of Quickness and a forged bow is one with a Bow of Accuracy? I wonder why that is.

[thejeff]

No, he's saying the Troll Archer in Bogus's group is an exception. This may be true, much about Bogus's group is an exception.

But I'm not sure this is an exception. I just ran a quick test with a Lizard Lord, Boots of Quickness & a Bow of War. He definitely fired twice in some rounds. Fired
and moved in others and Fired, moved and fired in one. Similarly with Boots & a Banefire Crossbow, he fired most but not all rounds. And made a partial moves forward.

This matches what I've seen before, particularly with W9 Ancestral Vessels. They would Fire, some of them would advance and some would fire again.

So, I'd say quickness & bows works but not quite as well as you'd expect. This may qualify as a bug. Either firing twice as often or no effect would be understandable, but I can't justify this weirdness.

[Sombre]

Quickness lets you fire twice with a missile weapon in some rounds, yeah. This has been observed many times.