What happens in 2025? / new tactics- new technologies

[MarkSheppard]

Originally Posted by Karagin

Every decade since the 80s, the MIC talks, shows off a cool demo system, the DOD throws them money, and nothing ever makes it down to the rank and file to us, so what is going to change this time?

1. )Big Army is now behind it with the system designated Directed Energy Maneuver-SHORAD [DE M-SHORAD].

https://www.defensenews.com/land/202...rones-at-yuma/

2.) The Ukrainian war has pushed anti-drone capabilities to the forefront. The cheapest possible weapon now -- IRON DOME style -- costs about $30,000 per interceptor. This just too much when dealing with the DJI MAVIC drone threat of $2 to $3K per drone just flying around with a camera and dropping grenades on you.

3.) Lasers are the solution to a lot of problems. While you can use a radar intended for an active protection system to track drones and probably zap them with microwaves; that's a very limited capability -- it only works on targets that need electronics continuously running to stay in the air -- lasers let you counter artillery shells, mortars and drones with a very low marginal per shot cost. You can also use the laser against ground targets -- i.e. zapping IEDs or suspected IEDs, clearing land mines, destroying UXO, etc.

Also, adding a separate APU to an AFV means one more thing that can break down, one more thing that needs to be taken care of.

The M1A2 SEPv3 Abrams upgrade has a 10 kW APU.

The M2A4 Bradley has an APU.

Big Army saw the light on APUs after thousands of hours were waste in Iraq using Abrams and other AFVs as road sentries, running their engines for hours on end to power the on board sensors needed for the sentry mission.

[Karagin]

Originally Posted by MarkSheppard

1. )Big Army is now behind it with the system designated Directed Energy Maneuver-SHORAD [DE M-SHORAD].

https://www.defensenews.com/land/202...rones-at-yuma/

2.) The Ukrainian war has pushed anti-drone capabilities to the forefront. The cheapest possible weapon now -- IRON DOME style -- costs about $30,000 per interceptor. This just too much when dealing with the DJI MAVIC drone threat of $2 to $3K per drone just flying around with a camera and dropping grenades on you.

3.) Lasers are the solution to a lot of problems. While you can use a radar intended for an active protection system to track drones and probably zap them with microwaves; that's a very limited capability -- it only works on targets that need electronics continuously running to stay in the air -- lasers let you counter artillery shells, mortars and drones with a very low marginal per shot cost. You can also use the laser against ground targets -- i.e. zapping IEDs or suspected IEDs, clearing land mines, destroying UXO, etc.

The M1A2 SEPv3 Abrams upgrade has a 10 kW APU.

The M2A4 Bradley has an APU.

Big Army saw the light on APUs after thousands of hours were waste in Iraq using Abrams and other AFVs as road sentries, running their engines for hours on end to power the on board sensors needed for the sentry mission.

APUs are one more thing to go wrong. I have seen firsthand how badly PMCS is done on stuff, seen how well it is done when it's done right. Worlds apart. Also, the DOD is being told to go all-electric by 3030/35, so what good will an APU do them when the damn batteries weigh more than the overall vehicle can carry?

Same for the laser/DEW system, the power source is still the size of a car to give it any chance to do the damage-to-kill ratio it needs to be effective. Shooting down missiles or artillery is great, but to have them on AFVs and be effective against other AFVs on the same level as chemical projectile guns, you will need a lot of power.

Big Army didn't see ****, contractors saw something and sold them something. We the soldiers pointed out issues to them all the time, sent in tons of reports and it got nothing changed. What we got told was to shut the F-UP and worry about our lanes.

Big Army has been dazzled by the MIC since the 60s with their promises of everything from caseless ammo for small arms, which we still haven't gotten, to laser rifles for the infantry. Every other year you see one or more of the contractors pushing their stuff and nothing comes of it other than a lot of money thrown at a project and little return.

Yes, the Army wants the DEW and they want rail guns and they want power armor suits and they better tanks and they want and want...but they don't get everything. And a lot of their pipedream wants are just that pipedreams from the MIC.

I have a nice collection of old COMBAT ARMS magazines with all the promised stuff the MIC was telling the DOD they would give by this point in time and that was back in the 1980s and here we are still not even seeing less than a quarter of that stuff since most of it was lies.

[MarkSheppard]

Drone tactics are evolving rapidly.

With no active Counter Drone system (C-UAS) widely deployed, everything is now a target for aerial drones:

For the IDF...drones dropping PG-7VR Tandem Charge HEAT warheads onto the thin roof armor of their Merkavas

https://twitter.com/TheDeadDistrict/...58410655285375

https://twitter.com/zhang_heqing/sta...88279315120142

This Merkava Mk3 MBT withstood the hit of a drone dropping PG-7VR munition. The grenade hit directly between two ammunition racks.

A little bit more to the left or right, and that HEAT jet would have hit stowed ammo and...

In the sudan...drones drop mortar shells

https://twitter.com/africaken1/statu...73104419082256

quadcopter drone drop a mortar bomb, on unsuspecting Sudanese rapid support forces militia, sleeping on a rooftop of a building

IDF troops have also been hit with mortar bombs -- there's video of IDF troops sheltering behind a vehicle, only for a HAMAS drone to fly over them and drop a mortar bomb on them from the first days of the current middle eastern conflict.

Abandoned tanks have to be recovered ASAP or else they're destroyed.

https://twitter.com/dronefare/status...81872923910360

Video from the
@DefenceU
showing a drone operator using a drone to remotely drop a mortar bomb in a Russian Tank through the open hatch

This BTW is like what happened on Okinawa 80~ years ago. If Shermans weren't recovered immediately -- at night, Japanese infiltrators would move up and toss explosives into them.

Drones are moving into fully autonomous mode, capable of operating with no operator.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidha...h=540426b866da

Ukrainian developers have confirmed that their drones are now carrying out autonomous strikes on Russian forces without a human operator. This is the first time such drones are known to have been used, as UN allegations about autonomous attacks in Libya in 2020 remain unproven.

The Saker Scout drones can find, identify and attack 64 different types of Russian ‘military objects’ on their own, operating in areas where radio jamming blocks communication and prevents other drones from working.

The quadcopter Saker Scout, came into service last month and can carry three kilos of bombs to a range of around 12 kilometres. Small drones operated by remote control have proved extremely effective as bombers with modified RKG-3 anti-tank grenades or RPG warheads and can destroy even heavy tanks.

Ground Drones -- UGVs are being used now to lay mines and re-mine previously cleared areas under fire:

https://euromaidanpress.com/2023/10/...an-troop-said/

On top of that, recently released footage showed operations of Ukrainian mine-laying drones, which were produced on the basis of simple radio-controlled cars. These drones are deploying anti-tank mines not only as close to Russian positions as possible but also on the trails made by the Russian tanks to ensure that if the next assault unit tries to use the safe and tested route, it will for sure get on a mine. Such a specific use allows Ukrainians to respond to new developments as they unfold and bring Russians a lot of headaches.

https://twitter.com/OSINTNic/status/1714752095952212371

Russian drone watches a Ukrainian ground drone lay anti-tank mines (English subtitles)

There are unconfirmed rumors right now that the Russians are using cargo drone ground vehicles for autonomous resupply of ground forces; but no imagery has shown up yet.

[MarkSheppard]

Originally Posted by MarkSheppard

Drone tactics are evolving rapidly.

Latest thing now. Ukrainians are using cargo drones (actually normal mortar bomb dropping drones) to ferry cargo across the Dnepr to the units that have crossed it.

https://twitter.com/CasualArtyFan/st...rc=twsrc%5Etfw

Everyone talks about drones in terms of ISR, arty, and FPVs, but what about resupply?

Ukrainians who have crossed the Dnipro are using drones to regularly “ferry” supplies across the river.

On the right is a TRV-150, used by the U.S. Marine Corps in a similar role.

Went looking up the TRV-150:

https://www.popsci.com/technology/ma...supply-drones/

The Marines are getting supersized drones for battlefield resupply
The big flying machines are designed to carry about 150 pounds and can fly at about 67 miles per hour.

BY KELSEY D. ATHERTON | PUBLISHED APR 27, 2023 4:40 PM EDT

On April 11, the Department of Defense announced that it was allocating just over $8 million for 21 new delivery drones. These flying machines, officially called the TRV-150C Tactical Resupply Unmanned Aircraft Systems, are made by Survice Engineering in partnership with Malloy Aeronautics.

The TRV-150C is a four-limbed drone that looks like a quadcopter on stilts. Its tall landing legs allow it to take off with a load of up to 150 pounds of cargo slung underneath. The drone’s four limbs each mount two rotors, making the vehicle more of an octocopter than a quadcopter.

The TRV drone family also represents the successful evolution of a long-running drone development program, one that a decade ago promised hoverbikes for humans and today is instead delivering uncrewed delivery drones.

The contract award is through the Navy and Marine Corps Small Tactical Unmanned Aircraft Systems program office, which is focused on ensuring the people doing the actual fighting on the edge of combat or action get the exact robotic assistance they need. For Marines, this idea has been put into practice and not just theorized, with an exercise involving drone resupply taking place at Quantico, Virginia, at the end of March.

The Tactical Resupply Unmanned Aircraft System (TRUAS), as the TRV-150C is referred to in use, “is designed to provide rapid and assured, highly automated aerial distribution to small units operating in contested environments; thereby enabling flexible and rapid emergency resupply, routine distribution, and a constant push and pull of material in order to ensure a constant state of supply availability,” said Master Sergeant Chris Genualdi in a release about the event. Genualdi already works in the field of airborne and air delivery, so the delivery drone became an additional tool to meet familiar problems.

Malloy Aeronautics boasts that the drone has a range of over 43 miles; in the Marines’ summary from Quantico, the drone is given a range of 9 miles for resupply missions. Both numbers can be accurate: Survice gives the unencumbered range of the TRV-150 at 45 miles, while carrying 150 pounds of cargo that range is reduced to 8 miles.

With a speed of about 67 mph and a flight process that is largely automated, the TRV-150C is a tool that can get meaningful quantities of vital supplies where they are needed, when they are needed. Malloy also boasts that drones in the TRV-150 family have batteries that can be easily swapped, allowing for greater operational tempo as the drones themselves do not have to wait for a recharge before being sent on their next mission.

These delivery drones use “waypoint navigation for mission planning, which uses programmed coordinates to direct the aircraft’s flight pattern,” the Marines said in a release, with Genualdi noting “that the simplicity of operating the TRUAS is such that a Marine with no experience with unmanned aircraft systems can be trained to operate and conduct field level maintenance on it in just five training days.”

Reducing the complexity of the drone to essentially a flying cart that can autonomously deliver gear where needed is huge. The kinds of supplies needed in battle are all straightforward—vital tools like more bullets, more meals, or even more blood and medical equipment—so attempts at life-saving can be made even if it’s unsafe for the soldiers to move towards friendly lines for more elaborate care.

Getting the drone down to just a functional delivery vehicle comes after years of work. In 2014, Malloy debuted a video of a reduced scale hoverbike designed for a human to ride on, using four rotors and a rectangular body. En route to becoming the basis for the delivery drone seen today, the hoverbike was explored by the US Army as a novel way to fly scouts around. This scout ultimately moved to become a resupply tool, which the Army tested in January 2017.

In 2020, the US Navy held a competition for a range of delivery drones at the Yuma Proving Grounds in Arizona. The entry by Malloy and Survice came in first place, and cemented the TRV series as the drones to watch for battlefield delivery. In 2021, British forces used TRV drones in an exercise, with the drones tasked with delivering blood to the wounded.

“This award represents a success story in the transition of technology from U.S. research laboratories into the hands of our warfighters,” said Mark Butkiewicz, a vice president at SURVICE Engineering, in a release. “We started with an established and proven product from Malloy Aeronautics and integrated the necessary tech to provide additional tactical functionality for the US warfighter. We then worked with research labs to conduct field experiments with warfighters to refine the use of autonomous unmanned multirotor drones to augment logistical operations at the forward most edge of the battlefield.”

The 21 drones awarded by the initial contract will provide a better start, alongside the drones already used for training, in teaching the Marines how to rely on robots doing resupply missions in combat. Genualdi expects the Marines to create a special specialty to support the use of drones, with commanders dispatching members to learn how to work alongside the drone.

The drones could also see life as exportation and rescue tools, flying through small gaps in trees, buildings, and rubble in order to get people the aid they need. In both peace and wartime uses, the drone’s merit is its ability to get cargo where it is needed without putting additional humans at risk of catching a bullet.

EDIT: I think the pace of drone development is so rapid, with everyone getting them, that I think that it may be useful to simply consolidate them (if not already done) into BLUE or RED OBAT as "Grenade Drone", "Mortar Drone", "25 kg Kamikaze Drone", "Resupply UGV", "Resupply UAS"

[Dion]

Lasers might be twice as powerful as people think because they can start fires. I don't think there's one single animal on earth that will not retreat from fire. I imagine they will breakdown easy, just from everyday wear and tear from simple vibrations that its vehicle its mounted too has to endure each day. Probably would require extra maintenance and re-calibrations daily as well. As far as how decisive they will be on the battlefield, only time will tell.

[Mustang]

If youre going to assume directed energy weapons start fires, the entire map will become flame hexes fast.

As they said in the old NATO boardgame, to simulate the effects of strategic nuclear war, douse the map in gasoline and get a lighter.

[Dion]

Man, those are some fine videos. Technology of advanced weapon systems is advancing at such a fast pace, if the game isn't updated past 2025, all those updates of the past will become obsolete real fast.

[Suhiir]

Originally Posted by Dion

Man, those are some fine videos. Technology of advanced weapon systems is advancing at such a fast pace, if the game isn't updated past 2025, all those updates of the past will become obsolete real fast.

That may be a LOT more difficult then you think.
That would require considerable amounts of new and re-coding. And there's one, ONE, coder, Andy. Even if he wanted to do all the needed coding it would take years, literally, for one man to do all that's needed.

[MarkSheppard]

https://www.calcalistech.com/ctechne...icle/hywpcxufp

"Magen Or," the Israeli rocket interception system, which utilizes a high-powered laser, will soon undergo a series of tests under the conditions of actual combat in the southern part of the country.

"Magen Or" (Iron Beam) represents the next step in Israel's self-defense capabilities: a laser system capable of neutralizing rockets, missiles, or drones from a distance, at zero cost when compared to the Iron Dome.

Following the conflict with the terrorist organization Hamas in the Gaza Strip, the Israeli Ministry of Defense and Rafael recently agreed to deploy the system near the border with Gaza and challenge it with rocket barrages launched by Hamas terrorists. The operational testing of Magen Or - which is still in the development process - will not compromise the operational effectiveness of Iron Dome, which will be activated whenever launches are detected from the Gaza Strip. According to a security source, this is being considered as a live experiment.

The Magen Or system is scheduled to begin initial operations in 2024-2025, following a significant breakthrough in laser weapon technology in recent years. This system is designed to intercept various threats, including rockets, mortar bombs, drones, and more, all at a cost equivalent to the electricity required to operate it. Developers at Rafael categorize Magen Or as a complementary defensive weapon to Iron Dome, also developed and manufactured by the same companies. These two systems are designed to operate in coordination. Therefore, if the command and control system directs a powerful laser beam towards a target, an Iron Dome interceptor will not be deployed, resulting in savings of approximately $50,000 per Iron Dome interceptor.

[troopie]

With the Game, Don and Andy will decide. And I will live with it. Goeie nag.

troopie