Is it just me or is Hellheim troops way to strong? - Page 6

thejeff · #51 March 5th, 2007, 04:02 PM

Except that they tend to get ganged up, since they're perceived as unbalanced.

And given the perception of early game strength and late game weakness, I'm not certain, as I said above, that a nation that bumps off 2-3 neighbors and then is brought down when its strengths no longer apply is really balanced.

Finally, and somewhat tongue in cheek, that's not a statistically significant sample. Given the number of nations, even if Vanheim was twice as likely to win as any other nation, the observed distribution would not be unlikely.

Meglobob · #52 March 5th, 2007, 04:07 PM

Quote:

BigDisAwesome said:

Quote:

If Hellheim/Vanheim really are unbalanced they would be clocking up more wins.

Or all of these people that are arguing that they're overpowered could be teaming up on them in MP.

T'ien Ch'i in a EA game took out Helheim pretty much 1 on 1 and Helheim was played by a very, very good player but so was T'ien Ch'i...

I believe Atlantis in EA can eat Hellheim and Vanheim for breakfast, played correctly. Also EA Caelum can eat Hellheim/Vanheim for a midday snack played correctly. Also heavily blessed Mictlan nation can stand upto them (which how everyone usually plays Mictlan) and Nelfelheim, Abysia can also stomp Hellheim/Vanheim. So where's the balance problem?

Hellheim/Vanheim really are SOOOO overrated its untrue.

calmon · #53 March 5th, 2007, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Meglobob said:

Quote:

Teraswaerto said:

Quote:

Meglobob said:
Vanheim/Hellheim are not out of balance. They are simply very, very strong nations early in the game or on small maps.

From midgame onwards those nations shrivel up and die rather easily.

I don't know why for example EA Vanheim would suck at mid or end game. Their magics are not bad. Air and Earth. Granted, they are capital only, but that doesn't make their magic power weak, and the troops are still deadly as raiders even if they can be beaten by high research magics.

It proves nothing that they have won no MP games we know of. There are so many variables at play there.

Teraswaerto here is Tyrants MP game winners so far, its really the only concrete evidence we after go about the balance of nations:-

.5 for joint win.

EA-
Caelum- 1
Sauromatia- 1
Tien Chi 1

MA-
Pythium 1
Ulm .5
Machaka .5
Man .5
Ermor 1
Vanheim 1
Jotunheim 1
Pangaea 1

LA-
Argatha 1
Mictlan 1

As you can see Hellheim and Vanheim have NO WINS in EA and 1 Vanheim win in MA. If Hellheim/Vanheim really are unbalanced they would be clocking up more wins.

Sorry but this states says who win the game but not how! It says nothing about alliances of several players to defeat one nation or equal things.

I never played vanheim/helheim in a mp game but i've some good tactics in mind with the glamour stealth troops. In my mp games i've defeated vanheim twice but the players used the vans as a simple (very strong) combat unit. They missed the point that this things are the best national stealth troops.

Gandalf Parker · #54 March 5th, 2007, 04:15 PM

Quote:

thejeff said:
Except that they tend to get ganged up, since they're perceived as unbalanced.

And given the perception of early game strength and late game weakness, I'm not certain, as I said above, that a nation that bumps off 2-3 neighbors and then is brought down when its strengths no longer apply is really balanced.

Finally, and somewhat tongue in cheek, that's not a statistically significant sample. Given the number of nations, even if Vanheim was twice as likely to win as any other nation, the observed distribution would not be unlikely.

Again, if it was always one then it would be a balance problem. But I see the same situation plagueing other nations. Advanced players tend to know what maps and victory conditions mean everyone-gang-up-on Ermor, Ulm, Rylieh, Arcos, Ctis, etc etc.

No matter what map size or victory condition or game settings, if its always the same then there will ALWAYS be someone that has an advantage and must be taken out first. Venheim seems to be it for small maps (not tiny ones) and about 4 players. A blitz game. In a game like that, if someone takes Vanheim then hit them first. Dont try to get it changed so that Vanheim is ruined in all the other games (and you simply end up with a new nation who is usually a problem)

Gandalf Parker · #55 March 5th, 2007, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Meglobob said:

Quote:

BigDisAwesome said:

Quote:

If Hellheim/Vanheim really are unbalanced they would be clocking up more wins.

Or all of these people that are arguing that they're overpowered could be teaming up on them in MP.

T'ien Ch'i in a EA game took out Helheim pretty much 1 on 1 and Helheim was played by a very, very good player but so was T'ien Ch'i...

I believe Atlantis in EA can eat Hellheim and Vanheim for breakfast, played correctly. Also EA Caelum can eat Hellheim/Vanheim for a midday snack played correctly. Also heavily blessed Mictlan nation can stand upto them (which how everyone usually plays Mictlan) and Nelfelheim, Abysia can also stomp Hellheim/Vanheim. So where's the balance problem?

Hellheim/Vanheim really are SOOOO overrated its untrue.

I think part of it is that Vanheim's abilities make it easy to make use of them without having to play Vanheim well. The fact that it can be beaten by people playing the others well actually seems to be part of the complaint from what Ive seen. That is an imballance apparently. That it takes a good Tien Chi player to beat a bad Vanheim player.

But I agree. I have always felt that anyone playing the right nation for them will do well.

Kuritza · #56 March 5th, 2007, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Gandalf Parker said:Ahhh that makes a difference, in that case I would change "fewer AIs" to "more players" and leave the rest the same. So it becomes...

Try playing larger maps, more players, Jotunheim in a defensive mode, Pangaea in a guerilla tactics mode, Caelum in a hit-n-run mode, Abyssia in a pushed dominion mode, Arcosphale in a pushed research mode. Those are the ones Id try.

You might also look at the other "out of balance" posts. Such as the one about summons being too powerful, and the one about SuperCombatants being too imbalanced. Since this game does not balance every nation against every nation (thank you Illwinter for not making another chess game) then the fact that there are more than one "this is too powerful to be fair" would tend to be a balance unto itself.

It doesnt work like that. I cant set up a multiplayer game like 'you choose Pangaea and go guerilla to prevent Vanheim from eating too many provinces'.

Our map was large, and we had 10 players in the beginning -a big game. Now there are four less players, and nobody gangs Vanheim so I can perceive these 2x blessed raiders in their prime.
Btw, Pangaea in hit'n'run mode was rushed by the apes, Caelum was raided by said Vanheim while warring against Ulm, and is soon to be killed by Rlyeh, Abyssia was destroyed by Vanheim in the very beginning and is now supplying him with fire gems. So... I still fail to see how big games make Vanheim any more 'balanced' unless all players are experienced enough to gang him first.
As for the imbalance treads - no, SCs arent imbalanced because 1) they can be countered rather easily 2) all nations can have them. For example, 2-x bless Vanheim can counter MY sc's just be giving 2-3 commanders 2-3 easily craftable items and setting them to attack. I checked it in a test game - works like a charm. Defense 30, mirror image, AP weapon, water bless quickness. He cant hit them, they kill him in two rounds.

As for the statistics... It just proves some of the arguments mentioned here. Like, people tend to gang the strongest nations first. Pythium, Ermor, Vanheim are such nations. Ulm is perhaps the weakest, and ironically, thats why people often ignore them until they can drown everyone in their knights and infantry, backing them up by indie mages, golems and the like. Such thing will most likely happen in our current game btw - its turn 35, I am gonna be exhausted even if I defeat Vanheim so Ulm will get all the spoils of at. He will claim enough victory points to win, unless Rlyeh backstabs him with his amassed Ctulhus.

P.S.
I'm absolutely fine with some imbalances in this game - if anything they make Dominions 3 more fun and add depth to the game world. But vans are just too much, everything got its limits.

Gandalf Parker · #57 March 5th, 2007, 05:18 PM

That all sounds good to me. Im still not convinced of something needing fixed. The devs might decide to tweak it abit but I dont see it as broken.

Kuritza · #58 March 5th, 2007, 05:25 PM

Sorry, what sounds good? Uncounterable raiders? Recruitable commanders who kill SCs made on lvl6+ summon chassis? Units so powerful that national troops (and many spells) are useless against them? Not units of some magically weak nation like Ulm, but units of a nation with top-notch mages.
I fail to understand this logic.

thejeff · #59 March 5th, 2007, 05:42 PM

Thoughts on your SCs.

Sea Kings aren't particularly great SCs, but if they're what you've got to work with.

Try area affect attacks. Defense shields.
Definitely fire resistance. He'll still hit, but the 6ap won't work.
Eye shield. Fire shield. Vine shield to reduce his defense.
Any damage will break the mirror image.
Snake bladders, make your SC poison immune first. (I don't know if poison gets rid of the mirror image.)

Sea trolls have horrid Attack and Defense, so I'm not sure any of that will be enough, but try it out.

Kuritza · #60 March 5th, 2007, 06:28 PM

Thejeff -
My sea kings have:
100% FR
100% CR
100% LR
Vine shield.
Chill aura.
(very nasty combo btw)
Fire brand sword.
Enough rejuvenation to make him not get tired with quickness on.
Attack of 16+ and defense of 20+, not sure about the numbers.
He kills any national troops or summons, but dies to vanheim recruitable commander )))

Btw, try this King setup, it works. Rainbow armor, vine shield, fire brand, dragon helmet, messengers boots, rest up to you. Breath of winter, quickness.