What is the problem with SE5? - Page 8

Azselendor · #71 January 25th, 2007, 01:59 PM

A car is not natural, but it is natural to our habits, so is its design overall. Consider all the little features in cars that have come and gone because they, while some designer thought it was useful, aren't that useful in reality.

geoschmo · #72 January 25th, 2007, 02:00 PM

Quote:

AstralWanderer said:
As long as the poll is open to all though, that is about as fair as a website can get.

If by "fair" you mean accurate, then from a statistical analysis perspective a web poll open to all is just about the worst kind of poll you can do. Really the only way you could do worse would be to go out of your way to find a biased sample group. Something like taking a survey to see if people support tougher sentencing laws, but only asking convicted felons.

You have to do all sorts of random sampling and other statistical stuff to get a survey that produces data worth using. Web polls are useless are far as getting useful data. The only thing they are good for is driving traffic to whatever site they are on. People like to feel like their opinion matters, and a web polls gives them a nice warm feeling. But the only people seriously paying attention to the results are the other people who voted.

Geoschmo

President_Elect_Shang · #73 January 25th, 2007, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Azselendor said:
A car is not natural, but it is natural to our habits, so is its design overall. Consider all the little features in cars that have come and gone because they, while some designer thought it was useful, aren't that useful in reality.

That is the point, it is not natural. There is a difference between natural and easy. Easy may be based on habit but that does not make it automatically natural. Civilization is not natural, small groups are but civilization is easier than small groups for security, survival and so forth. You are still interchanging the two terms. The car may have been a poor example. I used it since both achieve a natural goal. The desire to move from point A to point B. That is hominid nature and extends to most every species on the planet. Cars make it easy to achieve a goal; despite the motives. In other words we are not sedentary, we don't have roots, we can't sit in one place our whole lives and survive. Again that does not make cars natural. By the same manner there is nothing natural about computers or using them. Also please keep in mind that habit does not mean natural. In most every case habit is shaped to achieve a natural goal. Anyway lets move along.

Even though I probably shouldn't go there... Geo is right. One of the big no-no's is to try a survey on the internet. The AAA would laugh you out of the profession if you even tried to base a research paper off an on-line survey. One of my professors went so far as to threaten an automatic failing grade if we tried it on any of our research papers. As SJ would put it On-line survey != Fair.

Azselendor · #74 January 25th, 2007, 05:15 PM

the thing about humans is that we are, by definition, outside of the rules of nature because of our behaviors. We manipulate and change our environment to make our lives easier. We didn't like walking, so we domesticated horses. Horses were too demanding, so we invented cars. We didn't like swimming so we invented boats, and so on. Now I admit there is nothing natural about a machine-made item, but then again comparing nature to machine makes about as much sense as comparing apples and oranges.

To me, SE5 (Danger! Returning to the topic), is a jarring experience for many veterans fans and newcomers because of its quagmire interface.

Now several of you denounced Drag and Drop, but I submit to you that without that function, you would not be able to tolerate using any computer for more than five minutes. Move a file using the same method of clicks in SE5 and my case is proven. Drag and Drop is a very natural function of Object Orientated Interfaces and I will say Aaron was a fool to ignore it.

Some day I will sit down and write out a nice big essay with pictures and a power point and all my little ideas on how to fix SE5 and why SE5 is behind SE3 and 4 in playability, but whatever.

Fyron · #75 January 25th, 2007, 05:20 PM

Drag and drop in a file browser is only tolerable because you can select as many items as you want at a time to move. If you had to drag and drop files one at a time, it would be really useless compared to cut and paste. My issue with drag and drop for adding components in SE5 is exactly that... you would only be able to do them one a time. You could not easily use shift to very quickly add 12 engines, if you had to use drag and drop.

Azselendor · #76 January 25th, 2007, 05:27 PM

In which case in only makes sense for aaron to add similar abilities. Shift to select a wide range of components and ctrl to pick and choose which ones, then move in mass.

Fyron · #77 January 25th, 2007, 05:29 PM

But that doesn't work with the slot layout setup. It would work in a SE4 or SE3 type system where you just have lists (but clicks to add are much better there anyways), but not with slot layout.

Phoenix-D · #78 January 25th, 2007, 05:35 PM

That and..how exactly are you going to shift-select 6 engines if there's only one engine in the component list?

Azselendor · #79 January 25th, 2007, 05:37 PM

actually it is with a little forethought. Basically it would have to be modified so that when I drag an engine and it's not placed in an engine spot, it pops to a free engine spot automatically. Or if I grab 3 engines, support components like bridge, life support, etc, and some weapons and then a slab of armor, those would automatically drop into their required places.

As for populating components, perhaps a "fill to max" toggle on the design screen to load up components in multiples. there are a couple ways of resolving that issue. (double click & auto-placement comes to mind as the best solution)

Suicide Junkie · #80 January 25th, 2007, 05:55 PM

The point is that you CANT grab multiple copies of the same item using a drag and drop system.

And if you are going to have automatic placement of the items, then you should go with SE4's superior tap-to-add system.

You also seem to forget that there are no engine slots... there are only Inner Hull, Outer Hull and Armor.
Some mods have only one or two slot types, and some components can be placed in multiple slot types.

Fill to max dosen't have much use outside of stock engines... And it would get really confused over the requirements in GGmod.

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You could do:
- Tap to add. (Auto placement)
- Drag and drop to shuffle components already added.
- Tap to remove (drag/drop with no movement)

If the placement were smart, say, placing the components in locations similar to the positions used in other designs, that might be decent.