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  #1  
Old August 30th, 2010, 04:15 PM

Valerius Valerius is offline
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Default Re: what about the future?

I agree with Fantomen that large scale changes in the game are extremely unlikely (I actually can't recall any UI changes since D3 was released). But that doesn't mean feedback isn't good. It may not have any impact on D3 but perhaps it can be incorporated into IW's new project and, who knows, maybe one day there will even be a D4 (I think this thread is a good example such feedback helping other projects).

As far as the devs taking notice, they aren't as active in the forum as they once were but even if they don't see your post I think good ideas might be pointed out to them by some members of the forum that have contact with them.

So, I think you should make your suggestions!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lizardo View Post
The change in the magic system from Dom1 to Dom2 and retained in Dom3, that is the consolidation of the spell casting types into a global point system really killed the idea of specialized mages. You just throw point at it till you know everything.
Having never played D1 I'm curious what you mean here. How did the magic system used to work?
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  #2  
Old August 30th, 2010, 05:21 PM
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Default Re: what about the future?

I played D1 quite a lot and not sure I dig what you mean buy that comment.

Bless was different, there were no themes nor eras, maps dynamically changed according to dom effects and the GUI was much more limited. Magic system was more or less the same minus new spells if memory serves.
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  #3  
Old September 5th, 2010, 05:41 AM
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Default Re: what about the future?

Quote:
Originally Posted by WraithLord View Post
I played D1 quite a lot and not sure I dig what you mean buy that comment.

Bless was different, there were no themes nor eras, maps dynamically changed according to dom effects and the GUI was much more limited. Magic system was more or less the same minus new spells if memory serves.
I think maps dynamically changing was a great thing thematically. Maybe it made actual multiplay somewhat less balanced, but I personally could easily live with it!
From Dom 2 to Dom 3 at least 1 spell - Astral Weapon was also removed. Maybe some were from Dom 1 to Dom 2, too.
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Old August 31st, 2010, 02:27 PM

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Default Re: what about the future?

I agree, it's hard to talk much about Gandalf and be polite.
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  #5  
Old August 31st, 2010, 02:35 PM
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Default Re: what about the future?

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I agree, it's hard to talk much about Gandalf and be polite.
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  #6  
Old August 31st, 2010, 03:21 PM

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Default Re: what about the future?

Quote:
Pressing the N key cycles between idle commanders.
No, it cycles between commanders defending. If there are 40 defending commanders and another 40 doing something else but only 10 you want to give new orders you still have to find and look at all 80 of them unless you can keep track of them in your head from turn to turn or start up the next day. There is no dedicated status to indicate which ones YOU want to give orders to next. This is a non issue, for decades of development, in all other games, I can't even begin to understand why it's a problem here.

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I don't quite follow here. I find the mages extremely specialized, ... In fact, the highly complex and specialized magic system is what makes the (it) great for me.
In Dom1 the Mages had to be individually targeted on each spell casting method. But instead of evolving to where the mages had to learn the methods individually (like the gem stuff) the method mutated into a general pool of point buckets when everyone instantly learned everything. Have your mage farm fill the buckets to level 9 and you get to do everything.

Yes there are existing some specialized mages and early in the game they make a difference but the most common thing to do is make rainbow mages.

There is no advantage to specialize. There are no real difficult choices when you can just research a method and all you mages can use it instantly.

The opportunity was to make the mages learn the methods individually even as you acquire the technology. The second thing to have done was to give mages who specialize in, method and gem, special related abilities and titles, which go away if they stray from the path. Getting a new, meaningful, title for your commander would be interesting.

Going further you could have specialized labs for, say, researching 'Alteration' or making potions or items.

Doing this give the player exclusive choices, which makes the choices both difficult and meaningful. It makes the 'rainbow' mage far less powerful and more difficult to come by.

Yes there is complexity, but it lacks an 'economy', rules that force choices. I want mages that learn and act like mages not magic mushrooms.

Quote:
There are other shortcuts and mechanics that help too. Like monthly ..
I know all those. It doesn't substitute for poor design. Keeping all relevant information and actions together is what the design philosophy should be. But even in something as simple as casting a spell the amount of gems scrolls up out of sight as you scroll down the spell list.

Often, when doing something magical, you need to do some alchemy but then you have to back out of the lab and re-enter it to do that. Or put some rock in some mage's pocket to help with the lab activity.

The Gem information, Alchemy, Spell Casting, Item Production and list of available mages should all be right there. Available mages includes ALL mages with Lab access, not just the ones in the province.

Then you can do everything you need to do very quickly without jumping in and out of screens each and very time for each and every step of each and every activity.

For that matter, there's no reason why something the Alchemy Stone has to leave to lab to function as all alchemy occurs within the player turn.

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With all due respect. The placement and scripting system is certainly a bit unintuitive, ..
I understand placement and scripting well. What happens is that if an orc runs up to my commanders on the right side of the field my mage on the left side of the field drops a nuke on them to kill the orc. And usually misses the orc while he blows up everyone else. Instead of aiming at the mass of archers far in the rear of the front line he drops bombs on the guys in melee. Which would be not horrible if he would center of the rear so undershoots don't wipe out the line. And there is no script that tells troops not to stack up.

There's a Paradox game, Chariots of War, which also does program resolved battles that you set up. Their algorithms don't exhibit this behavior, it it is possible to do.

----

There have been some minor tweaks to the GUI from D2 to D3, including making the background dark so un-highlighted units fade into it but it hasn't really changed in a way that makes communicating with the program less difficult. It was behind the times when it was originally written and it's ten years older.

---
Misc.
Have the ability to tell commanders how many gems they should be carrying and let them pick up or drop gems based upon that.

This is the idea of 'automating' micromanagement. Same with the build queues, state how many of what should be in production and for how long.

Allow complex plotting of movement, beyond one turn. As a good example HoI2 AoD, or Trade Empires. Those are RTS but it should be simple to do in a TBS.
---

I love the complexity but there has to be a way to manage it without burn out. And complexity alone doesn't give you the kind of meaningful choices that are needed.

The game isn't nitch because it is complex, it is nitch because the interface discourages participation by all but the most dedicated and pain tolerant.

Solving these problems instead of excusing them will make the difference between the effort being a hobby and something that can earn money for the authors.

Last edited by Lizardo; August 31st, 2010 at 03:51 PM..
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  #7  
Old August 31st, 2010, 03:51 PM
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Default Re: what about the future?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lizardo View Post
Quote:
Pressing the N key cycles between idle commanders.
No, it cycles between commanders defending. If there are 40 defending commanders and another 40 doing something else but only 10 you want to give new orders you still have to find and look at all 80 of them unless you can keep track of them in your head from turn to turn or start up the next day. There is no dedicated status to indicate which ones YOU want to give orders to next.
Sorry, I'm missing something here. You have 80 commanders. 40 are idle (because defend=idle - defend is the default behaviour for commanders with no orders) and 40 are following orders already. Do you want to assign new orders to 10 of the 80, or just 10 of the 40 who are otherwise unassigned?

Either way, this 'I want to give this commander orders' status is a little confusing to me. Is it something you set manually?
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  #8  
Old August 31st, 2010, 05:10 PM
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Default Re: what about the future?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lizardo View Post
In Dom1 the Mages had to be individually targeted on each spell casting method.
No they didn't. The magic system hasn't changed a bit from Dominions 1. Every mage has always had access to every spell your nation has researched.
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  #9  
Old August 31st, 2010, 06:22 PM
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Gandalf Parker Gandalf Parker is offline
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Default Re: what about the future?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lizardo View Post
I know all those. It doesn't substitute for poor design. Keeping all relevant information and actions together is what the design philosophy should be.
Quote:
Solving these problems instead of excusing them will make the difference between the effort being a hobby and something that can earn money for the authors.
Couple of small points.
The game wasnt designed. It evolved gradually. From a BASIC game on an Atari, thru C on Unix, thru C+ on Linux. For that its not a bad result. Some "design flaws" have been acknowledged by the devs as items which would require a complete rewrite.

And, the goal here was never to move from hobby to money-maker. That does have a part in understanding why some things got fixed and others didnt.
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Old September 1st, 2010, 02:06 PM
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Default Re: what about the future?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gandalf Parker View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lizardo View Post
I know all those. It doesn't substitute for poor design. Keeping all relevant information and actions together is what the design philosophy should be.
Quote:
Solving these problems instead of excusing them will make the difference between the effort being a hobby and something that can earn money for the authors.
Couple of small points.
The game wasnt designed. It evolved gradually. From a BASIC game on an Atari, thru C on Unix, thru C+ on Linux. For that its not a bad result. Some "design flaws" have been acknowledged by the devs as items which would require a complete rewrite.

And, the goal here was never to move from hobby to money-maker. That does have a part in understanding why some things got fixed and others didnt.
If I'm not mistaken that is in fact one of the (main?) reasons Illwinter aren't actively planning on making a Dom4: They feel they have taken the current system as far as it can go, and improving it - amongst other things with various of the suggestions you make - would pretty much require them to rewrite the entire code from the ground up. Something they have no intrest in doing, since it isn't "fun" to remake something they have already made once before.

Unfortunately for us, of course...
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