Best Unit in the Game... Any thoughts?

[PvK]

Kristoffer O said:
I have a vague recollection that we didn't want them to be healed, making inanimated unhealable, but that might be wishful thinking.

I think Tartarians would be much closer to balanced (and more interesting) if their starting afflictions could not be healed.

[CUnknown]

PvK -- balanced relative to what? I think tartarians -are- balanced relative to other level 9 summons that require 7 levels of magic to cast, don't you? I mean, clearly, it wouldn't be appropriate to have them balanced on a per gem basis with, say, a level 1 summons that only requires 1 or 2 levels of magic to cast (e.g. a Black Servant).

[PvK]

I meant "balanced, all things that come to mind, sort of considered." True balance isn't measurable in Dominions, nor do I particularly seek it. I was answering the original question that Tartarians seem to me like arguably the best unit in the game based on their strength and magic paths given, for such a low cost in gems. There are many things at the top research levels that tend to overpower things at lower research levels, which is clearly intended as a way to have the game change and move towards a conclusion. So I wouldn't say it's necessarily a problem the way they are. On the other hand, I think they'd still be one of the most powerful and efficient summons, and have more interesting thematic limitations (like the way the Allfather and Forge Lord pretenders can't heal theirs), if they couldn't heal their initial afflictions.

I don't particularly like research levels having a strong effect on balance. I actually would prefer it if there were some sort of balance remaining between research-1 spells and research-9 spells, because otherwise the things in the early game tend to become almost completely obsolete by the end. But that's an off-topic matter of personal taste which can be addressed by my own mods.

As for "other level 9 summons that require 7 levels of magic", I don't know that there (precisely) are any. I think other Conj-9 summons with similar magic requirements cost more like 25-40 gems and aren't particularly worth so much more cost. But as Shovah32 pointed out, one doesn't generally have _many_ D7 casters available. And I also consider Ghost Riders pretty dang wickedly efficient at D6 for 5 death gems, even though you don't get to keep anyone from it.

PvK

[Kristoffer O]

He is comparing them to living gods, who havn't been tortured in tartatus for millenia.

[vfb]

Well, Tartarians are a lot cheaper than the Demon Lords. They're also cheaper than Abominations, and it's the 1 in 5 Titan/Cyclops/Spirit that can be kitted out and cast Petrify and buffs that really makes a difference.

[Kristoffer O]

Best unit is Daughter of Typhon, no question. Pity she is restricted to Sauromatia and serpent cult Pythium

[Meglobob]

PvK said:

I think Tartarians would be much closer to balanced (and more interesting) if their starting afflictions could not be healed.

I utterly disagree. You would just make another lvl 9 spell fairly useless/boring. Leave Tartarians as is. If you did as you suggest, I would just summon bane lords for 12D gems and never use Tartarians. So you would just remove a fun part of the game. It takes considerable planning and skill to get Tartarians/Chalice or Tartarians/Gift of Health and a decent death/nature income to take advantage of it all. It is most certainly not inbalanced and is very much needed in ending long MP games or long SP games for that matter if you actually want to complete them.

PvK said:I don't particularly like research levels having a strong effect on balance.

Put research upto very hard, then you can battle away with your armies without magic having any real influence.

[PvK]

Meglobob, you don't need to overstate your disagreement with me, since we don't really disagree. As I later wrote, "There are many things at the top research levels that tend to overpower things at lower research levels, which is clearly intended as a way to have the game change and move towards a conclusion. So I wouldn't say it's necessarily a problem the way they are."

However, not to make any other point, wouldn't you agree that once the research is done, if you go with 12D Bane Lords when your opponent can go for 10D Tartarians, even without any healing abilities, the Tartarians will handily out-match your Bane Lords for the same investment in death gems?

Yes, Very Hard reasearch is an easy (if temporary) solution to keep the army game going longer. Mods work even better.

[Meglobob]

PvK said:However, not to make any other point, wouldn't you agree that once the research is done, if you go with 12D Bane Lords when your opponent can go for 10D Tartarians, even without any healing abilities, the Tartarians will handily out-match your Bane Lords for the same investment in death gems?

Yea, your probably right on this point.

Conjuration 9 would be alot less desirable if tartarians were nerfed and personally every time I viewed my tartarians I would be annoyed that there was no way whatsoever of healing its afflictions. Horror marks/curses are already annoying enough.

Seems to me that there is alot of players of Dominions who would like to get rid of magic all together and just pit armies vs armies. As far as I understand dominions development history, magic has constantly been nerfed over time, making it less powerful and useful. This is very sad and diminishs available strategies and tactics.

[PvK]

I think there's a wide spectrum of tastes in magic power levels, most of which are covered by the available options, and just about all of which can be covered by mods. Personally, though I love playing with mortal armies, my usual preference falls somewhere between "I'd just like the mortal units to remain a somewhat relevant factor into the late game" and "I'd like the magic to remain balanced by cost and level requirements throughout the game". I too love powerful magic effects - I just like them to have fairly balanced requirements (and not merely based on research). However, I don't mean to inflict those tastes upon the unmodded game.

I do think though that there are some things that are overpowered versus their costs, and that the game becomes more interesting if there are requirements to get to the most powerful effects, so that the less powerful effects still have their niches. I see most of the changes from Dom 2 to Dom 3 as those sort of changes, rather than an attempt to remove the powerful effects.

I can also see that many players love seeing lots of high-powered magic, and so don't like to get anything magic nerfed. Of course, mods can serve those players at least as easily as they can the players who prefer less powerful magic.