.com.unity Forums
  The Official e-Store of Shrapnel Games

This Month's Specials

Raging Tiger- Save $9.00
World Supremacy- Save $9.00

   







Go Back   .com.unity Forums > The Camo Workshop > WinSPWW2 > TO&Es
Notices


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old June 18th, 2008, 03:25 PM

StugIII StugIII is offline
Private
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
StugIII is on a distinguished road
Default Stug AAMG\'s???

I see all stugs are armed whit a AAMG ingame (version 3.00). Now i have never seen or heard of this. I know stugs carried a MG-34 or MG-42 that could be sticked trough an armored plate infront of the loaders hach on the roof superstructure, but an AAMG it was not...

It could not even shoot anywhere but the front sector and for any other shooting the loader would have to remove it from the armored plate and shoot from the hip so to speak.

It's just a hole in the armor plate whit a LMG sticked trough. Better weapon to simulate it would be a LMG or BMG.

This is a good pic of one you can even see the MG's bipods extended.



Heres one showing a restored stugIII from the side:



The late model StugIII had a remote operated MG where the loader did not need to expose himself other than to reload the weapon:



The picture is showing just the remote mount and not the MG attached to it...

Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old June 19th, 2008, 03:34 PM
Pierre's Avatar

Pierre Pierre is offline
Corporal
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Brussels
Posts: 51
Thanks: 0
Thanked 15 Times in 11 Posts
Pierre is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Stug AAMG\'s???

This has already been discussed in this thread:
http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/thr...b=5&o=&fpart=1
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old June 23rd, 2008, 01:05 PM

StugIIIAusfG StugIIIAusfG is offline
Private
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 2
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
StugIIIAusfG is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Stug AAMG\'s???

Ok, in that other topic the guy had not seen any stug's armed whit a co-axial mg. Here is one stug whit the early mantlet armed whit a co-axial MG, but this feature was more common whit the later model saukopf mantlets.



See the hole in the upper right corner of the gun mantlet? Thats where the CMG shoot's from.
LINK: http://www.andreaslarka.net/ps531048/ps531048.html

So we could have some stug III's in the game whit a CMG.

Secondly there is speak of shielded AAMG's... And then there is talk that the mg could be attached ontop the plate to act as an AAMG?

This makes no sence since the upper attachement still is limited in fire arch and the suplied MG-34 or MG-42 LMG did not have AA sights AFAIK. Never seen a photo of it either.

What I have seen is that when the MG was attached ontop of the plate it was used to fire when the rest of the vehicle was hull down or to enable shooting in a more steep angle down. For example when shooting down from a hill or mountain top. In addition since the loader was more exposed to enemy fire in that position it was not wery safe. Never heard of it beign used for AA fire.


So my suggestions:

1. Change all stugIII AAMG's to BMG's. Or LMG's whichever is better in game code.

2. Add some late model G stug whit a CMG. They also had the loaders shield MG so two mg's for some of those late stug III G's.



Bye!
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old June 24th, 2008, 11:30 AM

narwan narwan is offline
Captain
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Nijmegen
Posts: 948
Thanks: 1
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
narwan is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Stug AAMG\'s???

Such a change has a disadvantage that's bigger than the 'ailment' cured, IMO. When a unit is 'buttoned', the aamg becomes inoperable as no one is outside the vehicle to fire it. So changing these machineguns to another type would keep them operative when the Stug is buttoned.

So either option would have an 'unrealistic' side effect. I think the current setup is the best of the two options.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old June 24th, 2008, 12:49 PM

StugIIIAusfG StugIIIAusfG is offline
Private
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 2
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
StugIIIAusfG is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Stug AAMG\'s???

Quote:
narwan said:
Such a change has a disadvantage that's bigger than the 'ailment' cured, IMO. When a unit is 'buttoned', the aamg becomes inoperable as no one is outside the vehicle to fire it. So changing these machineguns to another type would keep them operative when the Stug is buttoned.

So either option would have an 'unrealistic' side effect. I think the current setup is the best of the two options.
Fair enough.

However whatabout the late model StugIII's whit the remote mount? Those were usable when the vehicle is buttoned up. The remote mount was implemented from spring 1944 onwards...
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old June 24th, 2008, 06:37 PM
cbo's Avatar

cbo cbo is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 300
Thanks: 1
Thanked 31 Times in 23 Posts
cbo is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Stug AAMG\'s???

I dont now what is actually in the game currently, as I dont play much these days, but with regards to what weaponry was carried in StuGs aside from the main gun, I suggest the following:

1. Ausf. A - D: These do not appear to have carried any machinegun, but had mountings for two submachineguns on the rear bulkhead in the fighting compartment.

2. Starting with Ausf. E, which was produced from September 1941, they carried a loose MG34 and 7 drum-magazines.

3. Ausf. Gs produced from December 1942 got the folding MG shield in front of the loaders position. The shield had two mounts for the MG34. One in the hole in the shield for fire against ground targets, another one on top of the shield for use against aircraft. It allowed the gun to be pointed skywards, but could only cover the forward arch (and would probably have been pretty useless against aircraft).

4. Beginning April 1944, the shield was being replaced by the remote-control mount, allowing the gun to be fired by the loader from cover. The limited anti-aircraft capability was lost, but the gun was now in a fixed mount and was aimed by a periscope with 3x enlargement.

5. Beginning June 1944 for vehicles with the welded gun-mantlet and October 1944 for vehicles with the cast gun-mantlet, a coax-MG was added.

cbo
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old June 24th, 2008, 09:07 PM
PanzerBob's Avatar

PanzerBob PanzerBob is offline
First Lieutenant
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 733
Thanks: 74
Thanked 16 Times in 15 Posts
PanzerBob is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Stug AAMG\'s???

Insofar as the B to D's having no MG. I disagree; while they were not fitted for one from the factory crews were quick to realize without a MG they had no close in defence. Crews carried a MG34 LMG, which was used for such work. This very likely even meant A's fighting later on had them on board as well, but I can find no reference to prove this, maybe all A's destroyed by then or out of service.

Can I get a confirmation AAMG's only fire when vehicles are not buttoned up IN THE GAME?
__________________
Eternal War(gaming) PanzerBob



"Whenever in future wars the battle is fought, panzer troops will play the decisive role..."
Heinz Guderian, General der Panzertruppe
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old June 25th, 2008, 02:33 AM
TreadHead's Avatar

TreadHead TreadHead is offline
Private
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 30
Thanks: 2
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
TreadHead is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Stug AAMG\'s???

Fuel for the discussion on both the AAMG and the Finnish StuG with a coaxial MG:

Looking in "Sturm & Drang No.2, StuG III", Japan, 1990, pages 88-89 have three photos of a StuG III Ausf G with a MG-42 in the bracket mount on the top of the shield. The MG-42 has the AA ring sight. Who knows how the crew obtained it, but from a practical standpoint, you've probably got about a 60-degree wide field of fire (for what it's worth, it's better than the 20-degree arc for the main gun ). The same book on page 90 has a photo of a pair of Stug III’s both with a MG-34 on top of the shield with an AA ring sight, and page 112-113 has a large two-page photo of a single StuG also with an AA ring sight configured MG-34.

In the game, as far as the external MG being treated as an AAMG versus BMG, making it an AAMG subjects the crew to being unbuttoned to be able to use it, which would be correct. (I tested that and when buttoned, the shots for the AAMG on a StuG dropped to zero). It also provides use as an AAMG as it seems to have been needed in that role, especially later in the war. To the negative, I believe that in the game as an AAMG it permits 360-degree use, and the code might be generous on the effectiveness. But, treating it as an AAMG would seem to be the reasonable compromise in terms of how the game can handle an unusual arrangement like this.

From a practical standpoint in the game, the only time when the 360-degree capability should be an issue would be if the vehicle was immobilized. Otherwise, the icon swings around to face the target anyway, right? (Although, I just ran a quick test where I immobilized a StuG, and then tried to use area fire selecting the AAMG and it would not fire outside the frontal arc.)

Also noticeable in the page 90 photo is that the mantlet of the first vehicle appears to have the same box-style mantlet with a coaxial MG as the one on the StuG at the Finnish museum, but otherwise does not have the hybrid composition of early and late components. The trailing StuG in the photo appears to have the Topfblende mantlet (Saukopf).

On the deal about coaxial MG, per http://afvdb.50megs.com/germany/stug3.html “A coaxial machine gun port was added to the welded gun mantlet starting in June 1944, and the cast mantlet in October of that year.” The best example of one of these I’ve found is the one at the Panzermuseum Munster: http://www.panzermuseum.com/stug-iii...d-vehicle.html Crank up the volume on the video on this page!

Some game relevant features & dates for the StuG III:

Mid Production – September 1943 – August 1944
> Saukopfblend (Cast gun mantlet) fitted to Alkett vehicles (Nov 43)
> Rundumsfeuer (remote controlled MG) mount installed in superstructure roof (Mar 44). Due to shortages of mounts, StuGs produced for several months with armour disc bolted over the hole.
> Nahverteidigungswaffe (Close defence weapon) fitted in superstructure roof (May 44). Due to a shortage of weapons until Oct 44, few Nahverteidigungswaffe fitted, so the hole was covered by an armour disc secured by bolts.
> Block gun mantlet with coaxial MG introduced (June 44)

Late Production – September 1944 – April 1945
> Saukopfblend with coaxial MG introduced (Oct 44)

As a side note, it was not uncommon for older variants returned for repairs to be re-equipped with parts from newer variants creating completely non-standard variants.

Here's something strange... I was using the StuG 276 scenarios 141 thru 147 for testing, and noticed that the StuG's in those scenarios have both the AAMG and a BMG in the game and when you right click on the unit for details. However when you select "Information" it does not show the BMG, just the main gun and the AAMG. Looking though MobHack, the only StuG I saw with a BMG was Unit 873 Stug IIIf.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old June 25th, 2008, 10:31 AM
hoplitis's Avatar

hoplitis hoplitis is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 261
Thanks: 1
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
hoplitis is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Stug AAMG\'s???

Quote:
TreadHead said:
...
Here's something strange... I was using the StuG 276 scenarios 141 thru 147 for testing, and noticed that the StuG's in those scenarios have both the AAMG and a BMG in the game and when you right click on the unit for details. However when you select "Information" it does not show the BMG, just the main gun and the AAMG. Looking though MobHack, the only StuG I saw with a BMG was Unit 873 Stug IIIf.
It is possible to change unit data while designing a scenario. Weapons and ammoloads included. These changes are stored in the scenario. The info screens refer directly to the OOB which remain unchanged by the above mentioned data change. On the other hand the scenario unit data (right click on unit - 1st screen)must reflect these changes.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old June 25th, 2008, 10:34 AM
DRG's Avatar

DRG DRG is offline
Shrapnel Fanatic
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: GWN
Posts: 12,268
Thanks: 3,818
Thanked 5,439 Times in 2,698 Posts
DRG will become famous soon enough
Default Re: Stug AAMG\'s???


Also.....

If the scenario was built with an OOB entry that was later changed the old values will be retained in the scenario while the new values will show up in the Encyclopaedia.

Don
__________________


If you find you are constantly reacting to your enemy's tactics instead forcing the enemy to react to yours, you are losing the battle....
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:06 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©1999 - 2024, Shrapnel Games, Inc. - All Rights Reserved.