.com.unity Forums
  The Official e-Store of Shrapnel Games

This Month's Specials

Air Assault Task Force- Save $7.00
Bronze- Save $9.00

   







Go Back   .com.unity Forums > The Camo Workshop > WinSPWW2 > TO&Es
Notices


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old July 17th, 2020, 05:39 PM

Pibwl Pibwl is offline
Captain
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Poland
Posts: 833
Thanks: 77
Thanked 209 Times in 152 Posts
Pibwl is on a distinguished road
Default Soviet OOB11 - 2020

Some remarks on aircraft (which I researched lately) and other things, that are worth to look at. Only things, that caught my eye last years, without nitpicking through all the OOB.

------

11, 295 T-34/76 M1940 - not a big problem, but the photos show M1941, with high-placed barrel. Example photographs:
https://www.o5m6.de/redarmy/img/t-34early_03.jpg,
http://beutepanzer.ru/Beutepanzer/su...4_early_10.jpg

021, 651 T-35 M1939 - a picture shows early model - this one should have conical turrets. Example photographs:
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/8e/fc...ee965fd1f9.jpg,
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:T35_8.jpg


A bit more on SP guns:

32, 198 SU-76M [assault gun] 719 SU-76M [CS inf tank] - standard "M" variant was produced and used only from 7/43 (now 5/43). Date change demands correction in CS formations 369-371 (unit 719 - however, they were assigned to some infantry divisions only from mid-44).

According to Russian book on SU-76, a standard armament was also DT AAMG, which could fire through a hole in a front plate, or on AAMG mount.
Sabot ammo was introduced in 4/43 according to this book, so unit #32 could have it as well (mabe a smaller number, than #198).
A picture from a manual shows ammo load: 7 Sabot, 15 AP, 31 HE, 7 unspecified.

Turret sides were only 10mm inclined at 20deg, so it might be too thin for 2.
I wonder, whether turret rear should be armoured at all - it was low vertical wall, reaching below the gun's breach level. On the other hand, it should be dangerous for the crew, not the vehicle itself. I'm looking at German Marders and PzJgrs, and they are not consistent here - some have armour 0, like LaS 762, PzJgr 38(t) and Marder I 37L, while Marder II, Marder III H and III M have rear armour 1, with similar compartments open from the rear.
Only from post-war 1945 production SU-76M had high rear wall.


318 SU-76 [tank destroyer] - turret rear armour was inclined at 20deg, but it was only 10 mm (now: 2), turret sides were also 10 mm/25deg.

It is available here until 6/43. It could be doubled from 4 or 5/43 with sabot ammo (unless removed from 5/43 at all, with an advent of SU-152).
However, it is worth to double it as class 18 Assault gun, like SU-76M, available from 1/43 until 12/43 at least (they were produced until July).


SP gun formations:

SU-76/76M were a mainstay of SPG regiments, but were not directly assault guns, rather SP artillery firing indirectly, which could be used as CS vehicles.

As for SP-artillery formations (concerning 075 Assault Gun Co, 076 Assault Gun Pl, 154 Assault Gun Sec):

- before 1/43 they have only improvised SU-26, and there should be only small units (probably only sections).
- from 1/43 there were only 4 vehicles in platoons, in fact named "batteries" (batareya) in Russian. Higher level formation was a regiment with 25 or 21 guns in 6 or 5 batteries (initially in 1/43 - 4/43 they were mixed of SU-76 and SU-122 batteries).
- After 10/43 there were 5 vehicles in batteries (regiment still had 21). In late 1944 there appeared also three-battery SU-76 regiments for infantry divisions.

Unfortunately, this organization didn't fit for heavy tank destroyers like SU/ISU-152, which also exist here as assault guns.

The organization gets complicated in tank destroyer class (it concerns 014 TD Platoon, 112 TD Battery):
- Before 1/43 there were only improvised ZiS-30, which were used mostly in 4-vehicle batteries assigned to tank brigades, withouth higher-level TD units.
- From 1/43 there appear SU-76 (which were used in SP artillery batteries/regiments described above). We can use it as a stop-gap TD in 4-vehicle batteries.
- From 5/43 there appear SU-152. And they were first used in 2-vehicle batteries (#334 TD Section), creating 12-vehicle regiment (6 batteries and KV command tank)...
- medium TDs appearing from 9/43, like SU-85, were organized in 4-vehicle batteries (four batteries in regiment). To complicate things, from 10/43 heavy TDs were used in 3-vehicle batteries (four batteries in regiment) - but maybe it can be ignored
- finally, in 1944 there were 21-vehicle regiments introduced, with 5-vehicle batteries for all TDs.

The information above is from Russian books on SU-76 and Red Army SP guns in general ("Frontovaya Illustracya 4/2002")

482, 483 SU-76i - they could receive sabot ammo as well, introduced in 4/43 (maybe in smaller number than later units 345, 346).

Misc:

42, 135 BA-64 - size should be 2 (now 3), like BA-20, SdKfz-221, Tatra T-72 and wz.34 (BA-64 was similar or even smaller).
Same for Polish LWP #44, Yugo #10, Czechoslovakia 260

43 Halftrack - photo is Scout Car. Soviet halftrack is eg. here:
https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qim...d51ab5c036c219

However, the Soviets in fact didn't "waste" rare APCs for infantry, and there were no halftrack-riding infantry formations at all... According to M. Bariatynski "Tanki lend-lease v boyu" and other authors, 118 halftracks were used as recce or armoured command vehicles, and the rest (over 1000) were employed as gun tractors, especially for AT artillery.
Anyway, it's worth to duplicate it as class 32 Scout vehicle, like M3A1 Scout Car.


44 GAZ truck - the icon is very different from 1.5t GAZ - it has wide hood and tarpaulin over the cab (see a drawing: https://images.app.goo.gl/WSvRTw3561owkzZM8 ). The best one seems 3179/80/81, which is smaller than ZiS-5 and has open separated platform. Same for units 465 and 598.

I suggest to change name to GAZ 1.5t truck - they were universally known as "polutorka" (one-and-a-half).

It's a detail, but the photo is not typical for GAZ truck. Most numerous was standard light 4x2 GAZ-AA 1.5 ton. The 6x4 GAZ AAA were rare - but the photo probably isn't even GAZ-AAA (GAZ-AAA photos: https://www.mojehobby.pl/zdjecia/5/0...auto_downl.jpg, http://www.armchairgeneral.com/rkkaw.../GAZ_AAA_2.jpg). A couple years ago there was better 4x2 truck as pm00160.
The photos of GAZ-AA are eg.: http://acemodel.com.ua/pages/models/72202/2.jpg , https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...ie_(2-797).jpg , http://armchairgeneral.com/rkkaww2//...cks/GAZ_MM.htm


The same for 134 AOP Light Truck (or it can be replaced with some field car like GAZ M-1 with icon 2746). Speed should be the same 18. The icon might be covered platform truck 3182.


74 BM-8-36 - better quality photo is at https://www.aviarmor.net/tww2/armore...sr/bm-8-36.htm

88, 468 SU-57 - the gun was in fact original US M1 57 mm. I don't know if they had US sabot ammo, but if they had, it could have been from a beginning. All sources say it had 99 rounds for main gun.

The second vehicle might be changed to eg. 125 Gun APC (HalfTrack) class - apart from three artillery regiments, they were used in 4-vehicle batteries in recce units.


108, 333, 336 T20 Komsomolets - size should be 2 (now 1) - they were noticeably larger, than tankettes, similar to Carriers.

BTW: as for 333 unit, there were not enough Komsomolets to tow AT guns and they were too valuable, so they weren't used as ammo carriers. Besides, they had two benches at the rear, not a platform.

129 BM-31 Andryusha - better quality photo: http://wio.ru/galgrnd/rocket/bm-31-12.jpg


332 Ammo Truck - it should be A/T wheel (photo of 6x4 Studebaker) and size 3 to be consistent. Since this is ammo truck, maybe icon 3158 with crates is better.

169, 485 KV-2 - a photo shows final model with vertical sides - it should be early photo 0081, with slanted turret front.

Russian sources and Polish author J. Magnuski don't credit early KV-1 with anything other, than 36 rounds of ammo, like later tanks (now 44).

As for names, unit 025, 486 KV-2 M1941 was a standard production, and 169, 485 was an early one, and both models were introduced in 1940. Early turret had factory designation MT-1, improved (standard) one had no specific designation and was called a "lowered turret". [edited]


339 T-27 [prime mover] - size should be 1 (2), like T-27 tankette

344 Carrier - known in Russia first of all as Mk.I Universal.


370 122mm M-30 FH - best icon seems 2105 (upper view http://technicamolodezhi.ru/rubriki_.../1971/art6.jpg) (icon 2128 is of German origin, has very different narrow tails and too long barrel.
Same for German #133 12.2cm Haubitze, Polish LWP #154, Czechoslovak #186


655 T-26 Dozer - I still couldn't find any info of T-26 dozer in Russian books, apart from a light snow plough.

However, according to M. Baryatynski, during the Winter War, in 2-3/40 there were introduced T-26 with disc mine rollers, apparently a small number. It could be reclassified, and the same icon would do (with appropriate changes in formations).

828 Studebaker US6 - could be doubled as a prime mover (for howitzers and heavy AT guns) and as class 23 APC (wheel) for motorized infantry, which has only 4x2 ZIS and GAZ at the moment.

870 Dodge T214 - most often in Russian sources is designation WC 51/52, rather than T214 - however, according to M. Bariatynski, they were known just as "Dodge 3/4t".

That's basically all for land equipment.

Last edited by Pibwl; July 18th, 2020 at 01:01 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old July 18th, 2020, 07:50 PM

Pibwl Pibwl is offline
Captain
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Poland
Posts: 833
Thanks: 77
Thanked 209 Times in 152 Posts
Pibwl is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Soviet OOB11 - 2020

Aircraft:


In most cases I took the information from Russian books on specific aircraft.

75 Pe-2 - introduced to units in spring of 1941 only (now: 1/40), according to Polish article on Pe-2 and Russian Wikipedia. They remained in use until the end of the war.
Bombs should be 250 kg instead of 500 lbs. The other typical bomb load was 6x100 kg.

4x250 kg, theoretically possible, was rather optimistic maximum load 1000 kg. According to the article, more realistic max load was 2x250 kg and 2x100 kg.

From 9/41 there were adopted and used in combat near Moscow small 10-20 kg bombs, of which they could carry presumably approximately 50-25 in special boxes in a bomb bay. Though I don't know if such variant is useful.


76, 425, 426 SB-2 - bombs in #76 should be 100 kg instead of 250 lbs - it could carry 6x100 kg.

In fact, the aircraft designation was just SB - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_SB . SB-2 was a misnomer coming from engines' designation, eg. SB-2M-100 - with two M-100 engines. First few aircraft (with M-100 engines) were delivered in 2/36 (correct date), but in bigger number they equipped regiments only from mid-36, according to a Russian book on SB.

427, 428 SB-2 - only from 9/38 there were produced aircraft with M-103 engines and bigger bomb load (now 1/38).

If you'd like an own photo for M-103 variant: http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/bww2/sb2/sb-8.jpg , http://www.airaces.ru/images/aircraft/sb_2.jpg , https://images.app.goo.gl/rCYwfKo2h1SiXq2z9


79 Il-4 - used from mid-40 (now 2/42) (actually, only from 3/42 DB-3F was renamed Il-4, what might explain its late introduction). 2500 kg was max load.

80, 421, 665 Tu-2s - bombs should be 500 kg instead of 1000 lbs and 250 kg instead of 500lbs. Name was written Tu-2S.

According to the Russian book, Tu-2S were used in combat from 6/44 (now 8/44). (Earlier, since 9/42 there were used ordinary Tu-2, however until 1944 they were little numerous).

There could be also a variant with 1x1000 kg and 2x500 kg bombs (max load 2000 kg, normal 1000 kg).
As a fighter-bomber, 8x250 kg rather wasn't possible: there were 4x250 kg in a bomb bay and two bombs on external pods (250 kg or 500 kg in a maximum variant)


86 Yak-9B - photo is ordinary Yak-9 fighter, Yak-9B bomber is 4165. There are also photos with bombs at http://wio.ru/gal2a/galyak9.htm and http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fww2/yak9b.html
It is not clear when they entered service - acceptance trials were in 12/44, but a small series had been already built after the first flight some time after 3/44. I've found an information in one book, that they were used in combat already in 10/44.

554 Yak-9B - used probably from 10/44, like the unit above - for sure not from 5/43.
It carried 128 (4x32) PTAB bomblets, so it probably it should be twice less, than Il-2, which carried 280, and also has 4.


130 I-16 - I-16 with rockets were first used at Khalkhyn-Gol in 8/39, however they were first applied as anti-aicraft weapon then. I don't known when they started to be used with air-to-ground rockets. On the other hand, #215 I-15 is armed with rockets from 8/39 alreaady.



131 Sukhoi Su-2 - introduced to units only in 1/41 (now 1/40).
Rocket armament was an exception on this type, and introduced only in autumn 1941, on some aircraft, according to a book on this type by D. Khazanov. I'd remove rockets or double it as a pure bomber, which was its primary usage.
Soviet typical bombs were 100 kg, not 120 kg. Typical Su-2 load was 4x100 or 2x250 kg.

It could be also a level bomber with 6x100kg bombs (max load).
There were also variants with smaller bombs, eg. 20x20 kg

At least from mid-42 until end of 1943 Su-2 were also employed as fast artillery spotter planes.
According to the book, from mid-43 a standard spotter plane became Il-2 (it could be added).


139 Yak-9T, 411 Yak-9U - no Russian books mention, that Yak-9s (apart from bomber Yak-9B) ever carried bombs or rockets, and there are no such photos known either. Only guns are mentioned as weaponry (eg. Yak9T http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fww2/yak9t.html and Yak-9U http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fww2/yak9u-107.html ). Seems, that during later course of the war the Soviets left ground attacks to specialized Il-2 rather.

Yak-9T was used fom 7/43 only, when military combat evaluation started (now 3/43) until the end (now 44).
It should only one 12.7mm MG.


141 La-5FN
- there were no 75 kg bombs in Soviet inventory. But La-5 could carry 2x100kg instead from a beginning http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fww2/la5.html
There's no reason why it shouldn't be available from 10/42, like other La-5FNs (now: 10/43)
In fact, all La-5FN could be renamed to La-5, because FN variant appeared only in 7/43 (armament was the same).

147 La-5FN - Russian books mention only bomb armament of La-5, not PTAB bomblets, which would need special bays in an airframe. There were no cluster bombs at that time either. To be removed IMO.


142 Il-2 Shturmovik - use of Il-2 with 37 mm guns probably ended earlier (by mid-44?) - they were considered less effective, heavier and production ceased in 11/43, according to an article in "Tekhnika i Vooruzhenie" 1/2009.
The name might be Il-2 NS-37 to differentiate.
Russian Wikipedia states https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%98%D0%BB-2 that this variant could not carry RS rockets (according to the article, the pilot was focussed on aiming cannons anyway).

If you'd like an own photo of this variant, here are some http://www.airwar.ru/enc/aww2/il2-ns37.html

218 Il-2 Shturmovik - Il-2 with PTAB bomblets were first used in combat in 7/43 according to an article in "Tekhnika i Vooruzhenie" 2008 (now 3/43)

223, 226, 663 Il-10 - actually used in combat from 4/45 (now 1/45)


202 A-20G, 219 Douglas A-20B, 454 B-25 Mitchell - presumably they carried Russian 500 kg, 250 kg and 100 kg bombs instead of 1000, 500 and 250 lbs (were bombs ever delivered by Lend-Lease Act?..)
It concerns also units 85, 409, 412, 413, 424

Edit: I've found an info in Russian book, that bomb racks in A-20 were modified to carry Soviet bombs: 4x250 kg or 8x100 kg. First A-20 were delivered in 7/42 and entered service in late 42 (concerns #219 level bomber). Later they were evidently fitted to carry heavier bombs, although they were mostly directed to naval aviation (concerns especially A-20G).

Edit2: I've found a better book by V. Kotelnikov, in which he claims, that early A-20 were all known in the USSR first of all as Boston-3 (Boston III, B-3 in short) and they entered combat service in May-June 1942. It should be also available as fighter-bomber then. Frontal armament were 4 MGs, often replaced with two 12.7mm UB starting from 9/42. Initial variant could carry 4x250 or 4x100 kg, from 8/42 also 8x100 kg.

213 Polikarpov I-15 - it should have only 2 MGs http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fww2/i15.html

214 Polikarpov I-15 - actually it's I-15bis with increased bomb load http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fww2/i15b.html (photos on that page if needed).

227 Polikarpov R-5 - there were no 75 kg bombs. It could carry 4x 100 kg or 8-10x 50 kg - according to Russian book on R-5, max load was 500 kg and such bomb sizes were used, on ten pods. At least from 1932 they could carry also 2x 250kg bombs.

It should be doubled as AOP plane as well, being the most typical Soviet close recce plane in the 1930s.


416, 417 R-Z [level bomber] - according to Russian book Aviakollekcya 5/2009 on R-Z and http://www.airwar.ru/enc/other1/rz.html, first series was given to units only in 6/36 (now 2/35 in 416 and 5/37 in 417)

Typical Russian bomb was 100 kg, not 120 kg (#416 could carry 2x100kg and 4x50kg or 4x100 kg).
Variant 417 with 20x20 kg bombs rather isn't possible, as the plane had eight pods and there are given variants 8x8 kg, 8x10 kg, 8x50 kg etc)
It could carry also 2x250 kg

It is worth to copy it as a fighter-bomber (the same load as R-5, but better speed). Armament was one #159 7.62mm MG

BTW: as for Spanish Republic OOB units 411,412 R-Z Natacha - a photo with Spanish markings is 1041, like unit 400. Same as above - variant #412 with 21x20 kg bombs rather wasn't possible.


418 DB-3 - used from 1937/38, might be 1/38 (now 4/39)

470 Yermolaev Yer-2 - according to Russian book on Yer-2, it could not carry 4 bombs 1000 kg - only 2x 1000 kg on external pods and 4x 500 kg in a bomb bay in maximum configuration.

735 Pe-2 - I have no information if Pe-2 used PTAB bomblets, but surely not before 7/43, when PTAB debuted with Il-2. (I suppose not - they attacked German columns with bunches of ordinary small bombs in 1941-42)

Last edited by Pibwl; July 19th, 2020 at 10:29 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old July 19th, 2020, 07:38 AM
blazejos's Avatar

blazejos blazejos is online now
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Pila, North west Poland
Posts: 365
Thanks: 55
Thanked 76 Times in 47 Posts
blazejos is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Soviet OOB11 - 2020

I d'like to mention about BT-7 M1935 which now in Soviet OOB is between 1935 until 1937 and then disappear. That are years of production but looks like after switching to new model M1937 older tanks were keep in units and never modernized with new turret because in case of engine and spare parts that was nearly identical tank.

Example photo from invasion of Poland 1939 BT-7M1935 http://www.historyofwar.org/Pictures...35_rakov1.html

How long this model tanks were in line probably to end of 1942 like newer BT-7 M1937 and to 1945 in Far East.

I include this dates and research inside this mod about BT tanks.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=51835
there are also icons of all BT with German and Spanish camo


I'm curious that is possible to add an not numerous BT-5 M1933 (early) with very early tower with smaller rear
https://scontent-waw1-1.xx.fbcdn.net...bb&oe=5F389E7D
Icon for Soviet and Spanish tank is already painted by me inside this mod.

Last edited by blazejos; July 19th, 2020 at 07:49 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old July 20th, 2020, 05:12 PM

Pibwl Pibwl is offline
Captain
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Poland
Posts: 833
Thanks: 77
Thanked 209 Times in 152 Posts
Pibwl is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Soviet OOB11 - 2020

125, 416 I-16 - I was surprised to find in 2008 book by Mikhail Maslov, that I-16 weren't fitted to carry bombs as a standard, apart from few experimental and not accepted machines. Only in the first half of 1941 part of I-16 were refitted with I-153-type bomb pods, for only 2x100 kg bombs (now they are available earlier and have 4x50 kg bombs).

The I-16 could also be a pure strafer with 20 mm cannons - first mass variant with cannons Type 17 appeared in service around 1/39, like unit #125.

(I'm not counting here bizzare small series dive bomber I-16SPB, which could not take off by its own and was carried airborne by TB-3 bomber)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pibwl View Post
130 I-16 - I-16 with rockets were first used at Khalkhyn-Gol in 8/39, however they were first applied as anti-aicraft weapon then. I don't known when they started to be used with air-to-ground rockets.
After rethinking and reading, it's best to set a starting date for RS armed aircraft in spring of 1941. In 1939 rockets were used against Japan in anti-aircraft role only, while they were not used against Finland (or Poland). In 8/1940 the Soviet air force changed mind and ordered to remove rocket launchers. They started to be fitted again on part of I-16s from beginning of 1941. In late 1941 they became more popular.

Quote:
213 Polikarpov I-15 - it should have only 2 MGs http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fww2/i15.html
Sorry, books say, that basic I-15 had 4 MGs (even on the quoted page inside the text). However, I-15 appeared in units only in late 1934, and in bigger numbers in summer 1935 (now: 4/34) (book by M. Maslov). I-15 with this armament (4x10 kg bombs) were used longer, than 3/37 - by end of 1938 (fighting with Japan)

Quote:
214 Polikarpov I-15 - actually it's I-15bis with increased bomb load
I suggest names just "I-15bis", like "I-16". It could also carry 4x25 kg bombs instead. I-15bis were quite typical as specialized attack a/c in 1941.

215 Polikarpov I-15 - I think, that rocket-armed aircraft should rather be I-153 - it was its typical armament since late 1940, and it carried 8 rockets. According to Maslov's book, I-15bis retrofitted with rockets carried only 4 (now it has 6). The date should be modified however - they were mounted in a number in late 1940, only after the problem with wing deformation was solved.
The change to I-153 won't need a new icon.

Armament with two 12.7mm MGs apparently remained only experimental on I-153 because of too low production of BS MGs. There was only a small series rearmed with one 12.7mm and two 7.62mm MGs - a standard armament remained four 7.62mm. There is no information about any trials to rearm I-15 with 12.7mm MGs.

There was also an attack variant I-163Sh with eight 7.62mm MGs (four in pods), but I guess it's useless.

423 Pe-8 - according to the book, in addition to two 1000kg bombs (on external mounts) it could carry only four 500 kg ones (in a bomb bay) (now: six), or eight 250 kg.
Other variants were: 4x 1000 kg or 12x 250 kg.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old July 20th, 2020, 05:45 PM

Pibwl Pibwl is offline
Captain
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Poland
Posts: 833
Thanks: 77
Thanked 209 Times in 152 Posts
Pibwl is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Soviet OOB11 - 2020

673 BK1124 Boat - initial armament was two #34 KT-28 guns (T-28 tank turrets). From 1940 there might have been mounted current #50 L-11 gun and there were twin 12.7mm DShK AAMG. Later there were mounted #51 F-34 guns (T-34 turrets).
(According to "Enciklopedia monitorov" book)

More correct name is BKA Pr1124 Boat - abbreviation was BKA, "pr" is a short of "project 1124". Out of curiosity, upper view https://images.app.goo.gl/MXXvB5hBC4NBSkCk9

674 BK1125 Boat - the same remarks as for armament and name.
Icon should be different, than the above one, eg. 711.
(line drawing: https://www.klueser.de/pic/PanzerkutterBKA112x_HP.JPG )


There might be added a numerous light river armoured patrol boat, eg. copied with changes from Nat. Chinese OOB #79 - the photo seems to be a typical Soviet boat. Armament should be one #139 MG and naval 37 mm gun (012 37mm Hotchkiss?). Used from 1/30. Better icon however is 705.

I don't thnink anybody would want to create SB-37 class river monitor, with 2x102 mm and 3x45 mm guns https://i.pinimg.com/originals/76/74...fa4f71e4a1.jpg

----


Weapons:


112 Tokarev ST38/40 - better name is Tokarev SVT - the rifle's name was SVT, 1938 or 1940 only marked model

114 Tokarev TT-33 - I suggest TT-33 Pistol or better just TT Pistol, as they were known in Russia (https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A2%D0%A2 ), so that everybody knows what is this.


That's basically all as for the USSR.

Last edited by Pibwl; July 20th, 2020 at 06:30 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old July 21st, 2020, 03:22 AM
blazejos's Avatar

blazejos blazejos is online now
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Pila, North west Poland
Posts: 365
Thanks: 55
Thanked 76 Times in 47 Posts
blazejos is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Soviet OOB11 - 2020

Great page http://wio.ru has an excelent tables about soviet riverine forces.

http://wio.ru/fleet/ww2armorb.htm


There is also table with diferent variants of weapons on Polikarpov fighters

http://wio.ru/tacftr/polikarp.htm
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old August 13th, 2020, 03:26 PM

Pibwl Pibwl is offline
Captain
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Poland
Posts: 833
Thanks: 77
Thanked 209 Times in 152 Posts
Pibwl is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Soviet OOB11 - 2020

Finally I could research DB-3 and Il-4 in Russian book.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pibwl View Post

79 Il-4 - used from mid-40 (now 2/42) (actually, only from 3/42 DB-3F was renamed Il-4, what might explain its late introduction). 2500 kg was max load.

418 DB-3 - used from 1937/38, might be 1/38 (now 4/39)
In fact, both aircraft carried the same load, but they couldn't carry 25 x 100 kg nor 10 x 250 kg bombs - there were only ten racks for max 100 kg bombs in a bomb bay and three racks for bigger bombs under a fuselage.

Maximum number of bombs was 14 x 100 kg (possibly two bombs on one central rack?).
Bigger load was 10x100 kg and 3x250 kg.
Maximum load 2500 kg for close distance was apparently 10x100 kg, 2x250kg and 1x1000 kg.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old August 13th, 2020, 04:20 PM
DRG's Avatar

DRG DRG is offline
Shrapnel Fanatic
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: GWN
Posts: 10,846
Thanks: 2,571
Thanked 4,055 Times in 2,023 Posts
DRG will become famous soon enough
Default Re: Soviet OOB11 - 2020

It's OK to present new found info but at least get the info on what's there now right. Neither aircraft have 25 100 kg bombs.

Also if **I** can find corroborating evidence the IL-4 was used in combat earlier than 2/42 then I will change it but that remains to be seen

https://vvsairwar.com/2016/11/02/the...ilyushin-il-4/

Quote:
Immediately following the German invasion in June of 1941, the DB-3 was the only twin-engine bomber that the Soviets had in their arsenal....... In 1941-1942, the Ilyushin Design Bureau set about radically redesigning the airframe, wings, and fuel system of the outdated bomber. Initially marked for designation as DB-3F (Forsirovannyi or “boosted”), the changes made to the bomber of the 1930s were so significant that in March of 1942, the outcome of the DB-3’s transformation was an entirely new aircraft: the Ilyushin Il-4.
it does seem that whenever you find "new" info that contradicts what we have then what you found becomes the "correct" data we need to change our data to match..... do YOU have any other source that supports that new one you are quoting ?

I will make a note to further investigate the bomb load claims but so much of what we are hearing lately from people amounts to making slight adjustment to the way the chairs are set up at a banquet. The max load for those aircraft is 2500 kg over short distances and any tactical bombing on the easter front would be done over "short" distances so what we have is the correct weight just not in the correct combinations none of which have any effect on actual game play. That said I will see what I can dig up as well but this game was not intended to be ENDLESSLY tweaked for over two DECADES and the changes to weapons can have knock off effects to scenarios ( the number of bombs can change or the weight but the probems start when the number of weapon slots used is reduced )all of which need to be checked so this could conceiveably be FAR more work than you may think....that said I think I have a solution that will work for the 4 weapon slots used by the DB-3....5X 100kg + 5X 100kg + 2X 250 kg + 1X 500kg == 2000 kg and uses 13 hardpoints. The DB-4 will use 5X 100kg + 5X 100kg + 3X 500kg but PLEASE understand this endless nitpicking is GETTING OLD
__________________

Last edited by DRG; August 13th, 2020 at 05:03 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old August 17th, 2020, 11:12 AM

Pibwl Pibwl is offline
Captain
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Poland
Posts: 833
Thanks: 77
Thanked 209 Times in 152 Posts
Pibwl is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Soviet OOB11 - 2020

Quote:
Originally Posted by DRG View Post
It's OK to present new found info but at least get the info on what's there now right. Neither aircraft have 25 100 kg bombs.
Sorry, I made an error in multiplication - it's 20x100 kg.
Sources dealing with bombs in detail are unfortunately rare and incomplete - I've found an info about 10 internal and 3 external pods in 2004 Il-4 book from Voyna v vozduhie series, and about 14x100 kg variant in Kotelnikov Il-4. Vozdushnye kreysera Stalina. I'm attaching a cross-section from the second book. I've been researching Il-4 for Polish Wikipedia purpose for last month, hence my interest in that plane in particular

Quote:
Also if **I** can find corroborating evidence the IL-4 was used in combat earlier than 2/42 then I will change it but that remains to be seen

https://vvsairwar.com/2016/11/02/the...ilyushin-il-4/

Quote:
Immediately following the German invasion in June of 1941, the DB-3 was the only twin-engine bomber that the Soviets had in their arsenal....... In 1941-1942, the Ilyushin Design Bureau set about radically redesigning the airframe, wings, and fuel system of the outdated bomber. Initially marked for designation as DB-3F (Forsirovannyi or “boosted”), the changes made to the bomber of the 1930s were so significant that in March of 1942, the outcome of the DB-3’s transformation was an entirely new aircraft: the Ilyushin Il-4.
The quoted page is just wrong. Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilyushin_Il-4 presents correct version, quoting references, that DB-3F entered production in 1940 and only in 3/42 it was renamed as Il-4. However, the problem with DB-3F / Il-4 entrance date is in fact secondary. The point is, that ordinary DB-3 carried the same payload, but maybe we don't need the aircraft with bigger bombs before 1942.

Besides, the statement, that "Immediately following the German invasion in June of 1941, the DB-3 was the only twin-engine bomber that the Soviets had in their arsenal" is wrong, because there were lighter Pe-2 and Yak-2 in service already, not mentioning SB and its later variant Ar-2... It might be accurate concerning long range bombers, but Er-2 entered service just in June 1941 and obtained readiness in August.

Quote:
...that said I think I have a solution that will work for the 4 weapon slots used by the DB-3....5X 100kg + 5X 100kg + 2X 250 kg + 1X 500kg == 2000 kg and uses 13 hardpoints. The DB-4 will use 5X 100kg + 5X 100kg + 3X 500kg but PLEASE understand this endless nitpicking is GETTING OLD
Fair enough

Adding 1000 kg bomb and two 250 kg might make too devastating effect on the first hex.

Then we don't need heavier variant before 1942, and we can stick with these two planes with modified loads.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	db3.jpg
Views:	104
Size:	58.3 KB
ID:	16124  
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old August 18th, 2020, 02:15 AM

Ts4EVER Ts4EVER is offline
Second Lieutenant
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 551
Thanks: 44
Thanked 178 Times in 88 Posts
Ts4EVER is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Soviet OOB11 - 2020

Recently a lot of new documents about Russian organizations and tactics in WW2 became available. Maybe this is too big a change, but one thing that was new to me is that starting in mid-1943, every Soviet Rifle Company was supposed to have one rifle platoon replaced with an SMG platoon. I already implemented this in my most recent campaign, but maybe this would be good to officially add to the ToE.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:30 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©1999 - 2021, Shrapnel Games, Inc. - All Rights Reserved.