MP: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI. Game Over. Supplicants Triumph!

[GrudgeBringer]

Not to hijack this thread, but could someone tell chrispederson the next time you see him to clear out his in-box....

Thanks, Grudge

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally Posted by ano

Having signed up for the multiplayer game, we now have to invent anti-uber-AI tactics.

Im abit confused by this. I would be bothered if anyone sprung this onto players. But I think that the AI and its level was well spelled out for this game long before anyone joined.

If I wanted to play against AI, I'd play a local single player game which I played maybe 2 times total.

That would tend to be vanilla or low level AI which is often complained of. Part of the reason I agreed to do this, and plan to do more, is that the scenario option of AI is broken. Players are not able to easily play against boosted AIs without it being a server game. I appreciated a chance to show that the AI has more options than people know.

[ano]

Gandalf, as I said several times, I greatly appreciate all the work you've done here. Your AI could be wonderful in all-against-AI games. People do like them, I'm sure. But this was not supposed to be such kind of game, or at least, I didn't understand it clearly. The problem here is that fighting AI is at all times less interesting than fighting people. Also, while you did a tremendous amount of work of modding all this, I don't really think you made the Dominions AI smarter, you just gave it the bonuses that make it perform much better (well, I may be mistaken here, of course). What I see now is boosted in many aspects AI with enormous hordes of troops (normal behaviour for AI). Maybe I haven't yet seen its full potential, of course... But anyway, for me Dominions is definitely not fighting AI.

p.s. Also, I never saw the exact explanations of what bonuses AI has, only general words. Even now I may only be guessing.
p.p.s. As mentioned above, I don't want to spam the thread with complains. I'm also not accusing anyone of anything, just expressing my opinion. Septimius, you did want opinions. This is it.

[Septimius Severus]

Well, its still very early yet, lets see how things pan out. A few things in this game, settings, BI mod (to keep the AI from recruiting chaff), Gandalf's work, are intended to make the AI more challenging. But of course, short of rewriting the AI game code, there are limits on what can be done.

Anyway, right Ano, I did want opinions on the difficulty level and thanks for your suggestions. The AI is stated part of the game and a strategic element, but I will do my best to make sure it is not the whole game. I'm closing the poll. On a scale of 1-5, people seemed to favor #3. Thanks for responding.

If, Ano the AI is boring to ya and not a challenge at all, feel free to kill em off or ignore them as you like. There's no law that says you have to fight them, Children of Crom is ready for ya whenever you want to come over and see us. If the AI is not giving you the beat down you want, I am sure someone else will be happy to do so.

And, Ano whats with that gold you keep sending me? Psychological Warfare? It won't work.

[rdonj]

Personally, I think it would be better to do no indies for the next game. That would help remove the feeling of the AI recruiting walls of chaff. While the BI mod does help a lot with that, the AI will still use every opportunity to spam units at you without rhyme or reason. The major consequences of this to players are the removal of recruitable indy commanders and mages, which is unfortunate. But those could be added back in, if you are willing to spend the time on it in mapmaking, or you could use something like my mod that adds some indies back in. Or you could use semi-rand. Lots of options


I don't think anyone is complaining that the AI is not a challenge I think it is just not the kind of challenge that Ano would prefer. I think the inclusion of AI nations is probably one of the most controversial aspects of the series. The last one may as well not even be a human VS game, with the likely strength of the AIs. They will probably occupy all human attention, and possibly even wipe out entire teams by themselves. I would instead bill it as a survival game, and leave out some of the other elements. But I think also that the bonuses given to the AI should be known about pre-game. Anyway, this is just what I think, feel free to ignore me

As far as that game goes, it seems likely the AI is going to have to be taken down by a concerted effort from the players. Bickering is likely to just leave you all weakened. Even normal AIs can be a bit of a pain to deal with. Jacked up ones like this one are probabl going to be show stealers :P

[Wrana]

By the way, one thing I don't particularly like about these AIs are troops from other nations. Would it not be possible to restrict such add-ons to troops from other eras or something such? Just to keep things thematically sound? Not that this would prove to be much concern with Ermor/R'lyeh in the 3rd game, of course...

[Gandalf Parker]

Its just sharing between the allies (as closely as I could arrange it). Its rather interesting which ones do and dont use it. And Id like to know how taking the capital works.

[Numahr]

So far, for me, these AIs are like super-independent. Interesting challenge shaping the world before we get to the later apocalypse. Fighting hard against AIs knowing that they are not even the real enemy is kind of exciting

[Septimius Severus]

Thanks for the input. I am always looking for ways to improve the series, so all suggestions will be taken into consideration for the next game. I certainly don't want the AI to become the entire focus of the game (and if I can help it, it won't be). If we need to do some AI toning down, it will be done and even though I like to have fun with the genocide stuff, rest assured we've no intention of actually murdering players or pitting them against insurmountable odds. Next poll will be on the Merc.

I do agree with Numahr a bit, I do like these mixed unit AIs, brings a fresh challenge. Sorta of like fighting the armies of TC, the varied units makes finding the right tactics intriguing. Certainly don't want AI that are pushovers or can be rushed in the first few turns.

I enjoy playing against both AI and humans. Some NvV and team play purists, as Rdonj mentioned, don't like the AI and RPG elements, and I understand this. Nothing yet devised can entirely replace the human element. And the scenario/RPG elements appeal to some and not to others.

However, I am quite impressed by the advancements in game AI that have taken place over the years. Contrary to what we might think though, the AI does not do things without rhyme or reason as humans may sometimes be said to do. The AI/comp can only do what its told to do. That being said, I'd love to play against an AI that fully approximates how a human would react and I think many AI programmers have attempted to do this by incorporating learning routines, personalities, or even random actions in an attempt to mimic human behaviour. Thus what seems to us to be nonsensical may either be an attempt at that goal or simply our lack of understanding of the programming logic behind it.

Rdonj, regarding the BI mod, actually only two indie commanders are made unsuable by the mod, The Barbarian Chief and Horse Tribe Chief, all other mages and commanders and a good number of the more "useful" (a somewhat subjective statement) units are still recruitable. Adding back in some units that humans actually might actually find some uses for is certainly very easy to do.

Game note: Thanks to rdonj, for coming aboard in a limited advisory capacity for Children of Crom.

[ano]

Septimius

And, Ano whats with that gold you keep sending me? Psychological Warfare? It won't work.

I am sure you do need gold so never mind.

rdonj

As far as that game goes, it seems likely the AI is going to have to be taken down by a concerted effort from the players. Bickering is likely to just leave you all weakened. Even normal AIs can be a bit of a pain to deal with. Jacked up ones like this one are probabl going to be show stealers :P

I did suggest an organized attack before but nobody bothered to answer. Go and kill the AI or it will come for you.

Gandalf Parker

Its just sharing between the allies (as closely as I could arrange it).

Are they allied with the corner AI's as well? Eriu recruits a lot of Vaetti.