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  #1  
Old July 30th, 2013, 07:16 PM

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Default British OOB7 corrections/suggestions (v.6)

Here are my suggestions as for the British OOB:

Light tanks:

002 Mk VIc - according to http://www.historyofwar.org/articles...tank_mkVI.html they were produced since 1939 (now: 9/35). Also David Fletcher wrote, that "shortly before the war" a decision has been taken to mount Besa in MkVI.
Maybe they should be named "Lt Tank Mk VIc", like unit 254? ("MK VI" alone is a generic designation. Same for other light Mk's)

003 Honey - picture 380 is M3A3 Stuart V, while it should be earlier model. Perfect for the British service is 27736. As photos from Italy show, old Honeys remained in use at least until 11/43.

Same for units 185 and 296.

004 Stuart VI - according to a book by J. Magnuski, only 3 Stuarts VI were delivered in 1943, and most in 1944 (now: 1/43)

I think, that 255 Honey II should be renamed to Stuart V, which was most numerous version in British use, delivered from 1943 (picture 380 is OK for this version). Now it's available since 1/43 and represents just a variant with better gun. Stuarts V sure remained in use much later (now 6/43), although I have no info if they were still used with turrets in 1944. Armour (slanted) should remain probably the same, although M5A1 Stuart VI icon would be better (unless there is a new one, with slanted sides).

Early cruisers:

005 A9 - according to AFV Weapons Profile 08 - Crusader tank and http://www.wwiivehicles.com/unitedki...er-mk-i-a9.asp deliveries were first made in 1/1939 (now 1/35) (although the pilot model was in 1936). It would need a change in formations, earliest would be #232 A13.

Same for unit 134 A9 CS (I don't know when it starts, so maybe also 1/39, being still the earliest unit in formations)

006 A10 - picture 635 is A10 E1 prototype with slanted front. 27606 looks correct and is very nice.

007 A13 Mk II - according to a Polish monograph on A13, including a list of orders, first Mk II were ordered in 1939, so I would expect them to start in mid-1939 (now 4/38) (some publications say 12/38, but others, like AFV Weapons Profile 08 claim, that this date concerns A13 MkI).
Turret sides and rear were two slanted layers of 14.5 mm, with a space between, so maybe it should be more (now: 2)
Lesser numbers were used until mid-1942 (now 11/41, which was in fact the end of numerous use - Operation Crusader)
Picture 690 is A13 Mk I without extra armour. Correct is 691 or 27610.

136 A13 CS - should be available not earlier, than A13 MkII above (now 4/38)

232 A13 Mk I - first delivered in 12/38 (now 4/36), according to AFV Weapons Profile 08 - Crusader tank (there wasn't even a prototype in 1936). Needs changes in formations 17 and 79, being the earliest tank.
Better copy of the same picture is 690 (used for A13 Mk II now), or better is 27584.

010 Crusader II - a photo 619 seems Crusader III (without external gun mantlet)

Other tanks:

020 Sherman I - photo 384 is M4A1 Sherman II. Could be 27717

Same for 193, 220

022 Sherman V - photo 384 is M4A1 Sherman II. Could be 27730

Same for 023, 194

300 Sherman II - photo is OK for this version, but 27723 seems a drawing of sand/black British camo.

301, 302 Sherman Hybrid - front cast armour should probably be no better, than 021 Sherman IIA / US M4A1(76)W (9, now 10).

303 Sherman III - photo 384 is M4A1 Sherman II. Could be 27725, 27726

030, 365 Valentine III - according to a Polish book, first Valentine III was produced in 4/42 (now 7/41), and it should remain longer.
Photo 639 is some two-men-turret early variant (I-II)

031, 147, 366, 367 Valentine IX - it's a detail, but these tanks were known for their lack of CMG - would it be possible to shoot an AAMG, between gun shots, with two-men turret?...

Regards
Michal
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  #2  
Old August 3rd, 2013, 08:18 PM

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Default Re: British OOB7 corrections/suggestions (v.6)

003, 185, 296 Honey - I've found also photo 12539.

010 Crusader II - correct photo seems 12868.

025 VC Firefly - IMO 648 or 12802 photo better shows the tank. Isn't a better name just "Sherman Firefly"?
Same for 119, 168, 221, 222

Some nice early Sherman in British service with welded hull (III ?) is on a photo 12854

045 Bishop - it was also used in Italian campaign, at least until 1/44 (now ends 12/42) [Concord's "British Armor in Sicily and Italy"].
They aren't seen with Brens on photos (if they carried one inside, I doubt, if it was mounted on external mount only after spotting a plane or an infantry)

049 Daimler A/C - first were indeed manufactured in 4/41, but they first appeared on African theatre only "about July 1942" (AFV Weapons Profile 21 - Armoured Cars Guy, Humber, Daimler, AEC)

051 Lloyd Carrier - in fact it was Loyd (for Vivian Loyd - see eg. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loyd_Carrier ).
According to J. Magnuski's book (Polish), in 1939 there was a prototype built, first orders were in 2/40, and they were commissioned in mid-1940 (now: 9/39).
Hull rear wasn't armoured (in fact, they weren't armoured as a standard - there were only kits of front and side armour plates).
It could be given an own icon, for it was quite specific (now it's Carrier's icon - a good model's photo is http://www.militarymodelling.com/sit...1/dsc05118.jpg )

Same for 235 unit

054 Austin 30cwt (Med Truck) - a photo is 6x6 Dodge. Austin rather wasn't met in 30cwt class - most typical in the 1930s was Morris (according to D. Fletcher's "British Military Transport 1829-1956", 'Austin Motor Company had virtually abandoned commercial vehicles between the wars').
In fact, 30cwt was a popular class between the wars, but became a neglected category after Dunkirk. A backbone of the British transport became 3-ton lorries, but we have 3-tonner as a Heavy Truck. If you want a photo of Morris 30cwt, there could be eg. a tractor Morris CDSW found.

55 Bedford (Hvy Truck) - name could be changed to Bedford 3-ton IMO, to better depict the category.
Icon seems quite strange - most typical 3-ton lorries used in field were cab-over-engine (Bedford QL - pictured, Austin K5, Fordson WOT6). Much better is icon 674 in SPMBT.
From 1941, 3-tonners usually came with 4x4 drive.

62, 63, 146 17 Pdr AT-Gun - a photo 65467 is early model on 25pdr carriage (Mk2 - 403 unit). Standard one is lbm 671.

64 40mm Bofors - picture 685 is old SP-1-vintage hard-to-say-what

66 Tetrarch - according to an article on 6th AARR by P. Brown, 6 tanks (of B Special Service Sqdn) were used in a landing on Madagascar in 5/42 (now starts at 4/44) - would need changes in formations (or maybe creating new ones, since they were not used in a role of airborne tanks there). They were available as airborne tanks from 8/42, although not used in action until 1944.

Same for 733, 734 (LJ tanks from 1944)

Formations 149, 150: Abrn Tank Sec, Plt - according to a detailed structure by P. Brown, each platoon had 3 tanks, so they should replace sections.

Regards
Michal
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  #3  
Old August 4th, 2013, 08:36 PM

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Default Re: British OOB7 corrections/suggestions (v.6)

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Originally Posted by Pibwl View Post
054 Austin 30cwt (Med Truck) - a photo is 6x6 Dodge. Austin rather wasn't met in 30cwt class - most typical in the 1930s was Morris (according to D. Fletcher's "British Military Transport 1829-1956", 'Austin Motor Company had virtually abandoned commercial vehicles between the wars').
In fact, 30cwt was a popular class between the wars, but became a neglected category after Dunkirk. A backbone of the British transport became 3-ton lorries, but we have 3-tonner as a Heavy Truck. If you want a photo of Morris 30cwt, there could be eg. a tractor Morris CDSW found.
Self-correction: I've acquired other book by D.Jane, in which it states, that there was 30cwt Austin K30 produced through the war. I suggest to rename it just "30cwt truck" (or "Morris 30cwt", since its only use in the game is towing light AT-guns, so it might be Morris CDSW 6x4 tractor).


93 Beaufighter IV - should be VI (IV wasn't build, according to Beaufighter In Action).

109 Gladiator - picture 30102 shows the plane in Belgian markings.

115 Daimler Dingo - there was a folding armoured roof (until Mk III variant from 1944) - so maybe it should not be open-topped. On the other hand, it seems that it had no special AA mounting for a Bren, which was placed in a slot in a front plate.

123 8in Battery - picture is 7.2in gun, same as unit 122 (it has longer barrel)

125 Vickers Medium - IMO better picture is 27608. Size should be IMO 5 (3) - it was large as Sherman. Possibly armour is overestimated - according to AFV Profiles 12: Medium Marks I-III, it was 8 mm max, even though it was sloped in upper front part (but vertical in lower). Crew was 5(4) [AFV Profiles].

129 Morris 15cwt - maybe it's better to rename it to generic "15cwt truck", since most popular were Bedfords MW (pictured), and popular were also Morris CS8, Fordson WOT2 and Guy Ant.
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  #4  
Old August 5th, 2013, 07:47 PM

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Default Re: British OOB7 corrections/suggestions (v.6)

supplements:

...129 Morris 15cwt - and I'm not sure, if it should be AT/wheel. Only two not numerous models produced from 1944 were 4x4 (Guy Ant Quad and Morris C8/GS).

Same remarks for 288 Morris 15cwt (Utility veh.)

By the way: I suggest to rename 055 Bedford to generic "3-ton lorry" to cover all 4x4 and 4x2 lorries. It is used in the game for towing of 17pdr gun only anyway... maybe it should be AEC Matador tractor then?

006 A10 - it's a detail, but maybe it's worth to change its class from Cavalry Tank to Heavy Cruiser - that's what it was regarded. It is the only unit of its class, and its formation would end before advent of next Heavy Cruisers (Grant)

110 Carrier AOP - first series of special AOP carriers was ordered in 3/39 and delivered in 1940 (now starts at 1/35) [by J. Magnuski's book; 1939 date is confirmed by Osprey New Vanguard 110 - Universal Carrier 1936-48].
According to AFV profile, they carried a Bren, but I suppose it had to be AAMG, since there was a binocular slot in a place of Bren cover.

next:

150 Vickers Med CS - according to AFV Profile 12 Medium Marks I-III, Medium Mk.IIA CS had 3.7in mortar, fit first of all for firing smoke, using also HE, but not very accurate in this role. There's no info on ammo load. Other remarks like 125 Vickers medium.

157 Valentine II - for the first year they weren't used in combat, and their debut was only in 11/41 Crusader operation (now starts at 11/40, so it can be used in a desert earlier). Maybe earlier they should be available on 'special order' only? Anyway, 3-men Valentines should definitely last later - I don't know when, but I think well after El-Alamein (now: 12/41) - they started to replaced with 4-men Valentine III only from 4/42.

Same for 364 unit (class Light Inf. tank, used in special formations)

158 M15-A1 - picture is M16

159 M16 - according to J. Magnuski, M16s were introduced to British armoured divisions (including Polish 1st Arm.Div) at least from 3/45 (now 1/46).

188 M3 SP 75mm - picture is 105mm SPG - correct is pm27738
Same for 199, 200

189 M3 SP 6 Pdr - correct picture is pm29389

194 Sherman V - a proper photo is 4015 in SPMBT (same for other Shermans V)

211 AEC Mk I - picture 27583 is in fact Mk III (bigger: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...moured_Car.jpg ). Proper seems 12533
They first appeared on African theatre in 1942 (now 10/41) [AFV Weapons Profile 21 - Armoured Cars Guy, Humber, Daimler, AEC]

236 Hawker Hart - crew should be 2(1)

237 Hawker Hind - crew should be 2(1). It's a detail, but accoridng to a Russian book on ground-attack aircraft, it entered service in 12/35 (now 1/35) (Wikipedia says 11/35) (then, a lifespan of Hart should be extended a bit)

241 LRDG Chevy AA - photo is 37mm portee - correct is 16201

(254 Lt Tank Mk VII - referring to what I wrote about #66 Tetrarch, this unit could be used in a landing on Madagascar in 5/42)

286 Austin 7 - it could take only 4 persons including a driver, and is rather not known for a military use. It's best to change it to Austin 10 Tilly (or generic Tilly - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tilly_%28vehicle%29 )
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Old August 5th, 2013, 10:11 PM
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Default Re: British OOB7 corrections/suggestions (v.6)

........on the list.....
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  #6  
Old August 9th, 2013, 08:02 PM

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Default Re: British OOB7 corrections/suggestions (v.6)

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64 40mm Bofors - picture 685 is old SP-1-vintage hard-to-say-what
Note, that this is also used by US 37 mm AA gun

294 Bedford (Prime Mover) - the only prime mover Bedford variant was QLB, specialized for 40mm AA guns ['Bedford to Berlin and Beyond' book]. It should be IMO changed to medium tractor AEC Matador. However, both these AT/wheel trucks were introduced around 1941 (I have no precise date for Matador). Now it's available since 1/30, but there were no British AT/wheel tractors before Morris Quad (#104).

I don't know, if the British used 4x2 trucks to tow guns before, or just limbers and limited(?) numbers of early tracked Dragon tractors. There could be added some generic Dragon (http://www.jedsite.info/tractors-del...on-series.html)

309 Centaur IV - a detail, but isn't a better category 129 Close Support Tank instead of Tank? (it's empty as well)

310 M3 SP 75mm SPA - picture is T19 105mm - should be US T30

327 Hawker Fury - photo shows some 2-seater. 110lb bombs are probably too heavy - according to 'Aircraft Profile 018 Hawker Fury' "most aircraft had provisions to for light bomb racks to carry 25lb practice bombs or flares".

330 Blenheim Mk.IV - with armament of 6 MGs it would be fighter Blenheim Mk.IF (more numerous) or MkIVF. (I don't think, that these variants were often used for strafing anyway)

340-342 Hawker Hart, Hind - crew was 2, if it matters.
Same notes as for availability, as 237 Hind.

350, 351 Spitfire Mk.IA, Vb - photo is some late variant (IX/XVI), with trimmed LF wings.
It's a detail, but first two Spitfires were delivered in 7/38 (now 6/38), and only in 12/38 there was a full squadron (No.19) (the Spitfire Story book). I wouldn't expect wasting such precious fighter for MG-strafing, BTW, especially for Mk.IA.

352 Spitfire MkVIII - it's better to rename it Mk.V C - most popular at that time, and used with bombs since 8/42 (date is correct). First VIIIs were built in 11/42 and were less popular variant.

353 Spitfire Mk.IXe - better photo IMO is 30025.
"e" wing with 2 cannons and 2x0.5in appeared in summer 44 only (now 3/43) [The Spitfire Story]
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Old August 11th, 2013, 08:25 PM

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Default Re: British OOB7 corrections/suggestions (v.6)

354 A-30 Baltimore - A-30 is redundant, as this is British unit.

Armoured cars:

356 Mrmn-Hrngtn II - an official armament, seen on photos, is Boys, Bren CMG (next to Boys) and Vickers AAMG. It could also carry another Bren as AAMG (or relocate its turret Bren), but I think, that one AAMG is enough.
It would be good to fit it with own picture (now it's MH III).

AFV Weapons Profile 30 - Armoured Cars says, that MH Mk II were first used by South African units from 11/40 (date OK), but their original armament was one Vickers CMG only (plus another one in left hull side eventually, but it had little practical usage). It seems, that only vehicles ordered by the British for Middle East, equipped to a standard laid down by the War Office, and received "about March 1941" had a new turret with Boys and Bren CMG.

Probably they were used longer, than 3/42, but I have no info.

Maybe a more natural name would be Marmon-Herr, or M-H AC?

357 Mrmn-Hrngtn III - it also carried an AAMG - usually Vickers AAMG in addition to Bren CMG.

358 Mrmn-Hrngtn IV - the picture is Humber, correct ones should be in SPMBT.

605 M-H II MG (Colonial AC) - as unit 356 above as for a photo and name.
Seems, that early cars had no Bren AAMG, before they were introduced to ME in around 3/41.

606 M-H II ATR (Colonial AC) - as unit 356 above. Boys were used on M-H only from 3/41 (now 11/40).

Why these cars and gun-armed support cars below are "colonial AC" class, not an ordinary AC? Maybe a "colonial AC" should be basic MG-armed variant only, used on secondary theatres? But gun-armed M-Hs were used on a main theatre in North Africa, as support vehicles for ordinary M-Hs.

BTW, we have formation #380 Col Arm'd Cars with two class 230 cars, and formation #385 Col A/C Troop with three ordinary class 11 ACs, so they are inconsistent.

Maybe the first of colonial M-Hs should be Mk I variant, used by the South African from 5/40 in East African campaign, armed with one Vickers CMG (plus a side MG eventually), with 4x2 drive (precisely Mk I was no Marmon-Herrington, which was a provider of 4x4 chassis, but Ford or South African Reconnaissance Car Mk.I).

According to AFV Weapons Profile 30 - Armoured Cars, a few cars in East Africa had Boys, but it isn't known since when.


607 M-H II 2pdr (Colonial AC) - the first modification of fitting M-H with a 2pdr gun from a knocked-out tank is described in 9/41 (now 12/40), by 4th South Afr. AC Rgt. ("claimed to be the first to fit into an armoured car a gun really effective against tanks" - AFV Weapons Profile 30 - Armoured Cars)

608 M-H II 20mm - date 3/41 seems correct ("early in 1941"), but gun-conversions were open-topped (I assume, that it concerns all gun-armed Mk IIs).

609 M-H II 37mm - German 37 mm Pak was sure mounted much earlier, than in 11/42, near the end of combat in Africa, if the first Italian guns were mounted this way in early 1941.

610 M-H II 47mm - first were mounted 20 mm Bredas, so maybe it should be available a bit later (now 3/41)

It would be complicated, but maybe there could be created troops with one gun-armed M-H and the rest ordinary ones? There were no troops equipped with gun-armed cars in total rather.


360, 361 Ironside Mk.I, II - these are Humber LRC, with a combat compartment at the rear, but photos and icons are Humber Scout Car (better photo is 12834 for unit 362, but 360 was turretless).

360 Ironside Mk I - production started in 7/40 [Osprey New Vanguard 177] (now 6/39). Crew was 3 (2), including wireless operator (it should have better radio chance).

Mk.I carried no Boys (introduced in Mk.II, according to Osprey). It could carry two Brens, but one should be enough (there are no mounts visible, and there are no photos with armament seen at all).
Rear was armoured, only roof was not. Mk I and 2 were 4x2, only Mk III was 4x4
Speed was 72 kmh

361 Ironside Mk II - Humber LRC II name was used rather, than Ironside (according to Osprey, Humber MkII was "described in one document as Ironside Mk II").
According to Osprey and AFV Weapons Profile 30, it appeared in 1941 (now 6/40).
It also should be fitted with a smoke discharger.
Maybe roof should be armoured - it had only a tiny open turret, while it received a roof over a combat compartment, comparing with Mk I.
Speed is quoted as 120 km/h (75 mph)

362 Ironside Mk.III - name Ironside isn't used for this variant of Humber LRC at all. According to AFV Weapons Profile 30, it appeared at the end of 1941 (now 9/43). Crew was 3 (2) and it had a smoke mortar.
Bren had a high elevation and could be used as AAMG, while Boys was fixed forward, like in unit 361 above.
Speed is quoted as 96 kmh (60 mph)
Photo 12834 might be Mk.II or III, while photo 6469 from SPMBT is specifically Mk.III (it has a bulge on a right side)


370 Beaverette I - it was conceived only after Dunkirk (now 1/40). Its Bren doesn't seem to be AAMG (normally it was stuck in a forward slot)

373 Beaverette III - appeared "in 1941" (AFV Weapons Profile 30) (now 1/43).
Standard armament was Bren in a turret, not Vickers K(2). It could have an own photo (now there is Beaverette MkI or II) and new icon, for it was shorter and had a turret.


375, 376 Guy Mk.I, Mk.IA - crew was 3 (4) - AFV Weapons Profile

380 Scout Mk.I - precisely, it was Humber Scout I or Humber SC I (there was also Daimler Scout Car). Produced from early 1943 only (now 8/39) [by a Polish book by J. Magnuski and a Czech photo book on Humber Scout car]

381 Scout Mk.II - as above, produced from 1944 only (now 8/40). There's no information, that they differed in armour - only mechanical changes are mentioned. But I've found no precise info on their armour anyway (they say "max 14 mm).

385 Humber Mk.I - size should be 3(2), like Guy.
Date 9/41 is OK for African deployment.

42 Humber Mk.II - size as above

386 Humber Mk.III - size as above.
It's a detail, but they first appeared on African theatre in 10/42 (now 8/42) [AFV Weapons Profile 21 - Armoured Cars Guy, Humber, Daimler, AEC]
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Old August 12th, 2013, 10:34 AM
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Default Re: British OOB7 corrections/suggestions (v.6)

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Originally Posted by Pibwl View Post


350, I wouldn't expect wasting such precious fighter for MG-strafing, BTW, especially for Mk.IA.

352 Spitfire MkVIII - it's better to rename it Mk.V C - most popular at that time, and used with bombs since 8/42 (date is correct). First VIIIs were built in 11/42 and were less popular variant.

353 Spitfire Mk.IXe - "e" wing with 2 cannons and 2x0.5in appeared in summer 44 only (now 3/43) [The Spitfire Story]
Michal

Unit 350
The Spitfire Mk Ia was not designed to carry bombs, so if we want Spitfires for Sea Lion or Dunkirk we have to resort to desperate strafing.

Unit 352
The Mk VIII was the third most produced Spitfire after the Mk V and the Mk IX. It's less well known because it was mostly used in the Mediterranean and SE Asia, which SPWW2 covers.
Many Spitfire pilots claim the Mk VIII was the best Spitfire.

Perhaps the primary reason not to change the Mk VIII to a Mk V is because the OOB already has a Mk V (see unit 351). The OOB has one each of the five most famous/common Spitfires.

Unit 353
For errors that are not obvious or well documented we should check several sources.

The first Mk IX were delivered in 1942 to No.64 Squadron at Hornchurch, and was the first squadron to go operational with Spitfire IX on 28 July 1942; but these would have been Mk IXc.

There's plenty of sources that say the IXe was delivered in 1943
Here's three Spitfire Mk IXe that still exist today that were apparently delivered in 1943:

Spitfire Mk IXe PL344 Registration N644TB Delivered to 8 MU in March 1943

Spitfire Mk IXe WR-RR serial MA793 This aircraft was produced at Castle Bromwich in 1943 and was delivered to 6 MU RAF on 21 July 1943.
It was shipped to the Mediterranean on 5 August 1943 and was operated by the Mediterranean Allied AF till transferred to USAAF 31 October 1943.

Spitfire HF Mk IXe MJ730 Registration N730MJ - First flight by Alex Henshaw 10 December 1943. Delivered to 33 MU in December 1943, MJ730 served with 249 Squadron in the Balkan Air Force

Cross
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Old August 12th, 2013, 11:44 AM

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Default Re: British OOB7 corrections/suggestions (v.6)

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Unit 350
The Spitfire Mk Ia was not designed to carry bombs, so if we want Spitfires for Sea Lion or Dunkirk we have to resort to desperate strafing.

Unit 352
The Mk VIII was the third most produced Spitfire after the Mk V and the Mk IX. It's less well known because it was mostly used in the Mediterranean and SE Asia, which SPWW2 covers.
Many Spitfire pilots claim the Mk VIII was the best Spitfire.
I'm not going to suggest arming Spitfire I with bombs That was only may opinion as for its usefulness in the game...

As for Mk VIII - I was surprised to find, that it was a popular variant (maybe it's because of Spitfire V /IX pilots' memoires, that I grew up reading )
Anyway, for several months from 8/42, a Spitfire with bombs could only be Mk Vc. We can ignore such a minor issue as well. I don't know, which variant was more popular on African theatre.

Quote:
Unit 353
For errors that are not obvious or well documented we should check several sources.

The first Mk IX were delivered in 1942 to No.64 Squadron at Hornchurch, and was the first squadron to go operational with Spitfire IX on 28 July 1942; but these would have been Mk IXc.

There's plenty of sources that say the IXe was delivered in 1943
Here's three Spitfire Mk IXe that still exist today that were apparently delivered in 1943:
Thanks. Summer 1944 is given by Afred Price, though it looked suspicious for me as well.

Michal
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Old August 12th, 2013, 12:21 PM
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Default Re: British OOB7 corrections/suggestions (v.6)

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Thanks. Summer 1944 is given by Afred Price, though it looked suspicious for me as well.

Michal
I've seen sources say Summer 44 for the 'e' wing', so it may be true. But at the moment I'm more convinced by the 1943 claims.

I guess it's possible that the above aircraft started life as 'c' wings and then were converted to 'e' wing at some point (all sources only reference the 'e' wing). But that would not just be a matter of replacing the .303 MGs with .5 inch cannon, the wings would have to be replaced.

Perhaps I'll have another go at nailing it down.


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