Luck/Turmoil versus Nothing.

[Wrana]

Originally Posted by Xietor

While many here will bash this strategy, I have taken 3 order/3luck in large mp games with good players and won. The theory being that even with 3 order once you get a decent size area you will get 2-3 events a turn anyway. This strategy should not be tried with every race. In those cases i took 3 sloth 2 drain to offset the scales.

If you have trouble surviving the start of mp games, having 3 luck/3 order is also not going to be much use to you. I also sleep(not imprison) a tough pretender for the extra points.

Yes, I've seen it preached by Baalz for some nations. AFAIU, though, such a build requires quite tough, costly units, mostly non-sacred. And this I'd say precludes taking Sloth in most cases. Though costly castles, which also require Sloth, would offset it somewhat...
Would you give an example of such a nation? I can think only of elephantes (and exclude LA Arcos) and maybe Vans/Tuatha here... Pythium is too resources-dependent...

[rdonj]

Off the top of my head...

Any nation with skinshifters (including giant nations).
MA R'lyeh.
Yomi
Baalz shinuyama.
Mictlan
Monkeys

I could go on, but I think that's a good start All of those should work with heavy sloth.

[Verjigorm]

Originally Posted by rdonj

Off the top of my head...

Any nation with skinshifters (including giant nations).
MA R'lyeh.
Yomi
Baalz shinuyama.
Mictlan
Monkeys

I could go on, but I think that's a good start All of those should work with heavy sloth.

I would say that MA/LA Ermor could also handle it, but you probably just left them out because no one ever picks them.

[chrispedersen]

I think both those nations are fine in strength.

I don't remember my usual LA - Ermor strat - I'd have to look it up - but by guess I would say the isuse isn't luck with la ermor, its order.

Since population is killed so rapidly, you benefit more from turmoil getting you luck events early, plus projected dominion.

[rdonj]

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

I would say that MA/LA Ermor could also handle it, but you probably just left them out because no one ever picks them.

As chrispedersen said, the popkill effect of LA ermor (and the complete inability to buy mages other than indies) makes turmoil a real no brainer for them. I can't really imagine them not taking t3. MA ermor can probably handle it, yes, since shadow vestals should take you through the early game and then you'll be reanimating most of your troops. Mostly I didn't name ma ermor because I felt I could keep coming up with more examples

[Verjigorm]

Originally Posted by chrispedersen

I think both those nations are fine in strength.

I don't remember my usual LA - Ermor strat - I'd have to look it up - but by guess I would say the isuse isn't luck with la ermor, its order.

Since population is killed so rapidly, you benefit more from turmoil getting you luck events early, plus projected dominion.

With LA Ermor I usually take:

Turmoil-3 Sloth-3 Cold-3 Death-3 Luck-3 Magic-3 Dominion-10 Lich Queen or Rainbow Master Lich

I don't care about extra money because I pillage provinces to create corpses and get money that way. I don't need to hire or maintain troops, so very little upkeep, and my money is generally used to put up buildings, and the Luck events see to a good bit of that. The plague events create free corpses which is good because I can either Raven Feast them if I have air magic or raise them from the dead if I have priests nearby.

Before I would always take low dominion and then worry that my advancement wouldn't outpace by dominion spread and I was depending on Order to get money, but once I decided to just say "F! it" and go all balls on the nasty dominion, I was much happier, since it is both more thematic and interesting to play.

Mines always produce money, so you can jack the taxes up to 200% once all the people are dead (mining with ghouls ftw), "Mrrrhhhrhrhrrh!!!! Goooollld!!!", and pillaging expecially if you can get your hands on some Implementor Axes is really easy with Ermor--this in fact is the best use for crappy hordes of useless dead guys! They may suck at killing troops, but they sure don't suck against peasants! "Go ahead, eat dem brains, but make sure you dig through their pockets for spare change while your at it!"

I've never tried all-balls negative scales with MA Ermor, though... too much reliance on the Grand Thaumaturgs.

[Xietor]

well the race i actually played 3 order/3 luck and won with was ma pangaea. Gorgon.
drain helps their mr. My research sucked but i had a good bless on the white centaurs, used stealth armies, and a lot of blood.

[Wrana]

Originally Posted by rdonj

Off the top of my head...

Any nation with skinshifters (including giant nations).
MA R'lyeh.
Yomi
Baalz shinuyama.
Mictlan
Monkeys

I could go on, but I think that's a good start All of those should work with heavy sloth.

Yes, forgot MA R'lyeh, thanks. Monkeys were covered under my elephant hypothesis. Mictlan maybe, but they use strong bless, so would probably be better with either Order or Luck (better with Luck, I think), especially as they usually use massed sacreds, so high Dominion is also good. Yomi - maybe, as their oni troops are resources-light.
About Baalz "antsy" Shinuyama I'll just point out that it uses CBM feature which would probably be removed in time (namely Size 1 for units which are both stronger and tougher than normal humans). And their other troops aren't light in resources at all.

[chrispedersen]

Ko-oni? or the lovely goblins?

[Wrana]

Originally Posted by chrispedersen

Ko-oni? or the lovely goblins?

If you ask about which Yomi troops are resource-light, yes, I meant oni in general. Goblins are cleverer and put some armor on.