Iraqi errors report - Part 2

[Marcello]

Unit 124: Mi-24
It should be deleted, Iraq did not get this version.

Unit 125: Mi-25
1) Initial availability date changed to 1/1980
2) Weapon n.145 Malyutka ATGM should be replaced with weapon n. 147 Falanga ATGM
3) Weapon n.185 2x 57mm S-5K in slots 2 and 3 replaced by weapon n. 186 4x 57mm S-5 with 16 HE rounds for each

A typical load would have been four UB-32 32 rounds rocket pods and Falanga ATGMs, as seen in this captured iraqi example.




Note also the standard 12,7mm gatling as gun armament; as noted previously iraqi Mi-24s did not carry 23mm guns.



Source for the pictures: http://www.fas.org

Unit 135 J-6
It has a wrong armament and is redundant, I suggest it to be deleted.

Unit 136: J-6
1) Availability date should be changed to 1/1983-12/1986
2) EW rating should be reduced to 0
3) Rocket ammo in slots 2-3 should be reduced from 5 to 4.
4) FC rating could be reduced to 7

The reduction in rocket ammo would make it consistent with four 8 rounds rocket pods, a typical MiG-19/J-6 load, or two UB-16 16 rounds pods. 57mm S-5 rockets were usually carried in pods with 8 16 or 32 rockets capacity. These were pretty spartan planes, lacking EW equipment and with a very short lifespan.

Unit 139: MiG-17D
1) Renamed MIG-17F (the iraqis got MiG-17F and MiG-17PF versions)
2) Availability dates could be changed to 1/1959-12/1973
3) It should be rearmed with two weapons n. 194, one in slot 3 and an other in slot 4.

Unit 140: MiG-17F
1) Final availability date restricted to 12/1973
2)Ammo load for weapon 186 4x 57mm S-5 in slot 3 would be reduced from 5 to 4 rounds, consistent with two pods carrying 8 rockets each.
3) Speed could be lowered to 11 (consistent with Unit 134 MiG-17F value in the Russian OOB)

Unit 141: MiG-17PF
1) Availability dates changed to 1/1959-12/1973
2) It could be rearmed with two weapon n. 196 250kg Bomb, one in slot 2 and an other in slot 3
3) Speed could be lowered to 11

Unit 142: MiG-19S
1) Rocket ammo in slots 2-3 should be reduced from 5 to 4.
2) Final availability date could be restricted to 12/1970 or 12/1973 (they were already being phased out in 1967)
3) FC rating could be reduced to 7

[Marcello]

Unit 143: MiG-21MF.
1)Fire Control should be increased to 10.
2)EW should be increased to 1, the plane did have a RWR.
3)Armament would changed to two weapon n. 196 250kg Bomb, one in slot 2 and an other in slot 3.

The MiG-21MF gunsight, bombsight and EW equipment were comparable or more advanced than those installed on the MiG-21PFM. I suggested rearming it two 250kg bombs because there is already one MiG-21 available with 500kg bombs and two 250kg bombs was apparently a more common armament anyway. The performance penalty (loss of range etc.) from carrying two 500Kg bombs was reportedly very high.

Unit 144: MiG-21PF
1) Night vision rating should be reduced to zero:
2) Rocket ammo in slots 2-3 should be reduced from 8 to 4. The plane carried two UB-16 rocket pods with 16 rockets each.

Unit 145: MiG-21PFM
Night vision rating should be reduced to zero.

The MiG-21PF lacked a gun while the PFM could at least carry a gunpod in the ventral hardpoint.
These MiG-21s did not have any optical night vision systems or a radars capable of detecting a ground target; insofar ground attacks went they were purely day fighters.


Units 150-151: Su-7BMK
1) Night vision rating should be reduced to zero.
2) EW rating should be reduced to 1.
3) Final availability date should be changed to 12/1986.
4) Unit 150 should be rearmed with four 250kg bombs (weapon n.196) , two in slot 2 and another two in slot 3.


Unit 123 SA-342K
Weapon n.233 7.62mm NF1 MG in slot 1 should be deleted

No machine guns were reportedly carried together with the HOT missiles and in any case doing so would have meant reducing the number of missiles carried. Four HOT missiles was the typical fit.

Unit 121 SA-341H
1) Name change to SA-342K
2) Final availability date extended to 12/1991
3) Weapon n. 145 Malyutka ATGM replaced by weapon n. 163 HOT ATGM with two rounds of ammunition

According to some sources such a mixed HOT/Strela armament was used to counter the threat posed by iranian Cobra gunships. according to SIPRI versions supplied were SA-342K and SA-342L

Unit 127: H-500D
1)It should be rearmed with weapon n. 182.
2)night vision rating could be reduced to 10 or 0.


Unit 128 MDH-530MF
1) Armament could be changed to weapon n. 213 2x Hydra 70 with six rounds of HE ammunition.
2) night vision rating could be reduced to 10 or 0.


Units 187-188 Il-28
1) The weapons in slot 3 for both units could be deleted; max practical bomb load was eight FAB-250 or four FAB-500
2) Final availability date should be restricted to 12/1982. The sources indicate that the iraqi Il-28 were, if not already out of service at the beginning of the Iran-Iraq war, at the end of their service lives.

Unit 189 Il-28
It could be deleted,
It has incorrect armament, besides units 187-188 are sufficient.

Unit 119: MB-339
It could be deleted.
Italian sources which MB-339 don’t mention Iraq as being supplied with them, nor there are mentions anywhere of its combat use in the iraqi air force.

Unit 963: AH-1 Cobra/TOW
Initial availability date should be pushed forward to 1/2015.
Insofar it is known there are no plans to purchase Cobra gunships, nor the US has many to spare to start with. Still I would wait before deleting it.

[Suhiir]

BTW Marcello, I'm monitoring this thread because I'm using Iraq as the primary opposition for the mini-campaign I'm making to go along with my USMC OOB release (to "showcase" the OOB changes AND let folks see how a "real" USMC battalion MEU is organized).
By chance are you making a revised Iraq OOB I could borrow/steal to use?

[Marcello]

Originally Posted by Suhiir

By chance are you making a revised Iraq OOB I could borrow/steal to use?

Not at the moment, I am afraid. I have done a job like that in the past for Afghanistan and North Korea but I have seen that interest for a "realism mod" for a minor nation is rather limited.
Hence I now prefer helping with the official OOBs, as they are more likely to be used with the standard game as OPFOR etc.
That being said, if you can afford wait till mid/late January I could cook one adding the changes listed in this thread to the stock game OOB.

[Suhiir]

No problem at all waiting.
Thanks!

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Marcello

Some changes for the tank guns

weapon 70 100mm D10T 55
HEAT penetration should be reduced from 38 to 28
It would represent BR-412B AP and BK-5 HEAT combination

weapon 71 100mm D10T 60
AP penetration should be reduced from 21 to 19
It would represent BR-412B AP and BK-5M HEAT combination

weapon 72 100mm D10T 69
Sabot penetration should be increased to 30 and Sabot Range to 90
It would represent BR-412D AP, BK-5M HEAT and BM-8 APDS combination.

Marcello, do you have any idea when BR-412B APBC and BR-412 APCBC were first produced and distributed ? All I've found so far is a vague reference to a time period right after WW2. In game terms the Pen for BR-412B should be 18 ( I have a number of weapons being adjusted in this next patch and this just happens to be one of them ) , BR-412"D" APCBC should be 22 but It would be helpful if anyone knows then these things started being issued. Stock BR-412 would be 16 pen in game based on detailed info I found on it's performance and the B and D versions at 500, 1000, 1500, 2000 and 3000 yards and that means there will be adjustments to SPWW2 as well

For HEAT I have 100mm BK-5M with 380mm Pen issued " in mid 50's " but I also have source that says BK-5M was issued in 1960. The round before that I have as BK-354M HEAT with 280mm pen but I've also seen that described as BK-5., If anyone knows when BK-5M was first issued that would be helpful

As for BM-8 APDS I have that showing up in 1968 with penetration rated between 257 mm and 264 @ 1km and in game terms we get a closer representation with a 31 pen and 90 range
Since everyone looks for inconsistencies that may exist between one weapon in other OOBs and given that this gun is used in dozens of OOB's There are adjustments that need to be done in quite a few plus SPww2.

However it would be helpful to know just when the BR-412D started making an appearance.

Don

[EJ]

Don,
The work you put into this game is GREATLY APPRECIATED! This is what I found on the BR-412D. It was supposedly put into service in the late 40s-50 time frame. Check this link: http://echo501.tripod.com/Military/100mm.htm

[Marcello]

Originally Posted by DRG

Marcello, do you have any idea when BR-412B APBC and BR-412 APCBC were first produced and distributed ? All I've found so far is a vague reference to a time period right after WW2.

I asked the same question a long time ago. The best answer I got was the following.

BR-412B: 1945
BR-412D: with one of the T-54 models, perhaps model 1951 circa 1951-1952.

[DRG]

Originally Posted by EJ

Don,
The work you put into this game is GREATLY APPRECIATED! This is what I found on the BR-412D. It was supposedly put into service in the late 40s-50 time frame. Check this link: http://echo501.tripod.com/Military/100mm.htm

I have similar charts like this for 105mm and 120 mm ammo and had been looking for one for the 100m ammo.

Thanks

Don

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Marcello

I asked the same question a long time ago. The best answer I got was the following.

BR-412B: 1945
BR-412D: with one of the T-54 models, perhaps model 1951 circa 1951-1952.

OK, Thanks. That does, sort of, fall in line with what little info I had found. It does mean if the BR-412D APCBC was available in the early 50's the penetration in game terms for AP would be 22

Don