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Old November 8th, 2020, 05:50 PM

Champagne Champagne is offline
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Default Modeling the dynamics of projectile vs armor plate.

I read an old on-line article dated from 1997 about Steel Panthers (1995). It was a question and answer interview with Gary Grigsby - the mastermind who created the modeling and the game.

Mr. G states that he used a collection of miniature wargames rules to compile the data to input into Steel Panthers (1995).

As the years have rolled by and SP is updated and patched to where it is today, has this updating included updating the data that was originally input to simulate the dynamics of projectile vs armor plate and other like aspects of tactical war from this period of history?

Here is the link to the article.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/featur...y_grigsby_.php
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Old November 8th, 2020, 10:59 PM
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Mobhack Mobhack is offline
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Default Re: Modeling the dynamics of projectile vs armor plate.

Interesting article.

Naturally when we got the code - in fact before that in the first game, which was a hacked mod - we used wargames rulesets (Wargames Research Group and Tabletop Games Firefly (WW2) and Challenger(WW3)) as well as reference books from Hogg, Ogorkiewicz etc either bought or via a trib to the Scottish National Library in Edinburgh.

After 2000 or so, the internet became a stronger source - not the old usenet groups and bulletin boards etc.

So various sources used to corroberate basic data, not just 1/300 tabletop rules.
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Old November 12th, 2020, 01:35 PM

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Default Re: Modeling the dynamics of projectile vs armor plate.

Discussion boards and message boards on the internet are totally inadequate for the purpose of expressing sincere gratitude, so, my gratitude for your work can't come through properly - but, please, accept my thanks and gratitude for the updating process on this aspect of the game.

I'm enjoying playing the 1939 and 1940 Poland and France scenarios against the Computer. The greatest challenge for me is to deal with the vulnerability of the German tanks of this period. Even the French 25mm anti-tank gun kills them at reasonably long ranges. This experience prompted this thread of mine.

I'm glad that you intended to port the most up-to-date table-top wargame rules and data to the game. I thank you for your on-going effort to do this. There is no other game out there covering the full range the WW2 years like this one does.
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Old November 12th, 2020, 02:02 PM
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Default Re: Modeling the dynamics of projectile vs armor plate.

There is a classic picture of a dead Pz 3 killed by lots of 25mm penetrations, the thing looks like a Swiss cheese

https://imgur.com/T3EhSc1
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Old February 15th, 2021, 11:11 PM
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Default Re: Modeling the dynamics of projectile vs armor plate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Champagne View Post
As the years have rolled by and SP is updated and patched to where it is today, has this updating included updating the data that was originally input to simulate the dynamics of projectile vs armor plate and other like aspects of tactical war from this period of history?
You can easily change it yourself to fit what you think is "best".

WW2_APCalc.exe (for paid users) lets you "shoot" the weapons in the OBATs and returns the typical and "best, 1 in a million shot" penetration chances for that weapon at that range.

You can then adjust the weapon stats in the OBATs as to what you think is correct.

As for penetration stats themselves...the internet and the wider spread of information (google books and other methods) have made it possible for someone to gain access to more information than were available in the prehistoric past of 1992-1993.

Thompson F-Formula Penetration Calculator

ARMET-TR-17002 Linear Velocity Decay Calculator

You can use these small Javascript browser programs I developed to calculate likely penetration stats for whatever fantasy weapon you develop (or for obscure WW2 weapons which little data is available on).

Like, for example, what would a hypothetical Japanese Tank Destroyer developed by the IJN mounting the 15.5 cm/60 3rd Year Type naval gun be like?

You could use the Linear Velocity Decay Program to input the relevant weapon stats:

155mm diameter
55.87 kg shell
925 m/sec muzzle velocity
2000m striking range

And using the default 0.841 Derived K Constant from ARMET-TR-17002; you'd get a striking velocity of 808.355 m/sec at 2000 meters.

Then running to the Thompson F-Formula Calculator; you'd plug in the relevant data.

(Side note, I calculated that the F-Factor of the Soviet 76.2mm F-34 gun was 1.318 -- that probably holds true for Japanese weapons as well.)

Doing

155mm diameter
55.87 kg shell
808 m/sec muzzle velocity
0 deg striking angle
1.318 F-Factor

We get:

220.250mm penetration at 2km range.

###########################

EDIT: The accuracy of the above estimate can be checked by going to the Type 3 75 mm tank gun Wiki and noting:

75mm diameter
6.6 kg projectile @ 680 m/sec muzzle velocity
65mm penetration at 1,000m

Cranking the numbers in the Linear Velocity Decay calculator (and using std 0.841 Derived K Constant) gets us a striking velocity of 564.408 m/sec.

Running back to the Thompson F-Formula calculator, we get with all the numbers:

75mm diameter
6.6 kg projectile
564.408 m/sec striking velocity
1.318 F-Factor (using Soviet F-Factor)

And we get 69.5mm penetration. Not bad for a SWAG on how well made Japanese AP projectiles were.
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