Thermal imaging

[Dimitry]

I've noticed a very strange thing in the game - vehicles with thermal imagers are indifferent to smoke.
Here is the example - year 1981. We have 2 lines of smoke across the map, dividing two tanks with thermal imagers. So they see through smoke (the range of sight is not even slightly reduced) and can shoot with same accuracy as if there were no smoke at all.
I can understand if it is year 2005 or + (maybe some radars or something like that ). But not 80's or 90's.
But moreover, all modern tanks have laser range finders. I doubt that they can function throuhg smoke - so the accuracy should be severely reduced.
I guess this affects all laser-guided atgm's, bombs and so on.

[Marcello]

Thermal sights can see throught a large variety of battlefield oscurants including conventional smoke, sandstorms etc.This is true now as it was in the 90's and the 80's. It was one of the most important advantages western tanks had over their eastern couterparts during the late Cold War and its importance was shown in several egagements during the Gulf War.
I suppose that in theory thick smoke should block LRFs but in practice I never heard it to be mentioned as an issue during GW1.

[pdoktar]

TI (vision 40) has been able to see through smoke since the original SP2 came out. And if you puff enough hexes with smoke, even TI can´t see through it anymore. All vehicles, regardless of weaponry can shoot through smoke, if it has a TI sight. Also AAA with radar (FC 100+) will target aircraft through smoke or bad visibilty, even without an TI sight. However radar doesn´t help shooting at land targets, as you may have guessed already. And indeed laser beam is so coherent, that it´ll pierce smoke easily. Try it home with a laserpointer-pen and some smoke from, say, a smoke generator, that everyone has under their bed.

[Marcello]

"And indeed laser beam is so coherent, that it´ll pierce smoke easily. Try it home with a laserpointer-pen and some smoke from, say, a smoke generator, that everyone has under their bed."

Just because the laser does not dissipate after three meters this does not mean it won't be an issue at 3000. AFAIK bad weather is considered a problem for LGBs. But perhaps it was not an issue at engagement ranges.

"However radar doesn´t help shooting at land targets, as you may have guessed already."

I might be wrong but IIRC the soviets had deployed radar sights for the MT-12 antitank guns. Take this information with a pinch of salt though.

[PlasmaKrab]

As things stand, remember that in-game vision above 40 can stand for either TI or radar (typically GSR for Ground Surveillance Radar). Both are considered identical for game purposes, and behave the same way with obscurants.
Generally units with radar within the game scope are recon/surveillance units, like the newly added PRP-4M and SNAR-10.

Few combat units use radar vision, Marcello mentioned the MT-12R (I think), there should be the Khrisantema launcher, and of course some combat helos like the AH-64D and Mi-28N.
I repeat, that these units have a ground-targeting radar or TI doesn't change a thing in the way they handle smoke.
For modeling purposes, I guess you could consider that for equal technology levels, a GSR would have 150% the range of a TI sight (e.g. 60 against 40 for most units), but that's a wild guess from me only.

I agree, there is no proper way to model bad TI, like some 70s sensors that could certainly see through smoke but couldn't pick out a tank clearly beyond 1km, the same way that you can't model bad laser rangefinders (the kind that are easier to use but less accurate than coincidence ones).
For now, I can live without them as far as I'm concerned.

Regrding lasers and smoke, bear in mind that most (all?) battlefield lasers are IR bandwidth, and I'd say most modern LRFs (used jointly with TI sights) use the same bandwidth as thermal imagers, so if thermals see through smoke, the laser penetrates smoke as well. So to simplify, the laser rangefinding ability gets the same limit as the vision.
QED or nearly so

[DRG]

Dimitry said:
I've noticed a very strange thing in the game - vehicles with thermal imagers are indifferent to smoke.
Here is the example - year 1981. We have 2 lines of smoke across the map, dividing two tanks with thermal imagers. So they see through smoke (the range of sight is not even slightly reduced) and can shoot with same accuracy as if there were no smoke at all.

Read what everyone else wrote then go back and do the same test with more smoke and you will find they are not "indifferent to smoke" when there is enough smoke. Take some off map arty and drop smoke in the middle of the map then have a look at what your TI tanks can see

Don

[pdoktar]

I should´ve written: Game AAA radars do not help targeting ground units (smoke or no smoke). However I didn´t know the ruskies have such a gun. Well the question is what they haven´t developed or tried.

[Dimitry]

Tkanks for the information - I'm glad that my post has attracted such an attention

But as for Laser Range Finders. I'm sure that modern LRF's are capable of operating in LIGHT smoke, but what about HEAVY smoke - for example a hex of smoke (as far as I remember hex=50 metres).
Here what was found in the net on the subject
http://members.tripod.com/dbunger/docs/laser.htm

2 Don

I've tried 5 (five!) lines of smoke. '81 M1 Abrams is able to see small targets such as APC's at 3500m! (3500m was set by me as the maximum view range for the map - 70 hexes) No changes for visibility or accuracy, just like there were no smoke at all.

[Marcello]

Personally I have experienced partial blocking of TI sights when something burning was present, just like happens in real life. According to the Army field manual FM 17-15 (Tank Platoon operations) it seems that normal amounts of conventional smoke are practically a non issue for the Abrams. Rangefinder blocking is not mentioned either.
I will see if I can find something in the other manuals dealing with smoke operations.

[DRG]

Dimitry said:
2 Don

I've tried 5 (five!) lines of smoke. '81 M1 Abrams is able to see small targets such as APC's at 3500m! (3500m was set by me as the maximum view range for the map - 70 hexes) No changes for visibility or accuracy, just like there were no smoke at all.

What's "5 (five!) lines of smoke" ?? Infantry smoke, mortar smoke, heavy artillery smoke ? "5 (five!) lines of smoke" tells me nothing and proves nothing. I told you to drop some arty smoke on the map and check LOS. When you do you will see something like this


Don