MP: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI. Game Over. Supplicants Triumph!

[ano]

If the AI had decided to attack the Sets on turn 12 or so, that alone would have *significantly* altered the game.

We attacked AI ourselves somewhere about this moment, so I don't think it could decide. Also, we were sure than Man will not attack C'tis because Ashdod attacked Man and we convinced Atlantis to do the same. C'tis was one of the main powers at that time and as we knew how AI chooses his targets, we could be absolutely sure that C'tis and Machaka are safe and could focus on the top AIs. One thing that DID decide was our three PoDs (nothing except a PoD could beat an AI castle 125 PD early on and nobody bet it at all except us) plus rainbow lich. OTOH, nobody knew about 125 PD and I even didn't realize the AIs have two starting provinces, armies and castles. I was sure that the space near the map edges was free.

I REALLY would like to ban powerful sites - no construction sites, no circle master sites.

Construction site didn't decide much as well, however it, of course, would decide if the game continued

As for water, well I suppose it depends on if your going to have water nations or not, how the water is distributed on the map, and how easy it is for certain nations to exploit it.

Speaking of water, I must say that we have had a VERY good water income that allowed us 3 or more clams per turn, boots of quickness and any other artifacts and we still had excess gems. And Ermorian lands were poorly searched. OTOH, our nature income was absolutely pitiful (every single province expect Ermorian ones was sitesearched with Haruspex or N3 mage) and mainly came from the capitals of Pan and Eriu that we conquered. Our fire income was also poor though we searched nearly everything as well and mainly came from Fetishes.

[Wrana]

Thanks for explanations, chris & Septimius. Having both them makes it so much more clear.
As for balance, yes, trying to reach the perfect balance can consume too much time to too little effect. But to reach some balance is possible and I think this game's teams were balanced enough for it to matter. 3 teams had Death, Blood & Astral, respectively, while the 4th one had the best forging capability together with some good SC, etc. possibilities in Ashdod & Mictlan (summons). It's completely mea culpa that we used what we had so poorly. Of course, if we have a way to make it more balanced without going into the Quest for the Perfect Balance, we should use it. That's why we had pre-game discussion before this game and are having this discussion now. What in particular do you mean, chrispedersen, by teams offered for the 3rd game being not balanced? I think that in some cases we may agree with you... And could you say what do you offer with "bid system" in more detail?
A map, of course, could be better. I hope it would be for the next game.
As for the random sites, etc. I think that restricting them makes sense for competitive chess-like games, but not for theme based ones. Everyone has a chance for something cool. It's in how you use cards you are dealt where skills are shown. Of course, chance still plays its part and it's especially impoortant when skills are near even. But so it goes. Theoretically, we can include some important sites in the map, add heavy defense (and make them appropriately beautified in the map picture ), then exclude them from the random generation. But I'm not sure it is necessary. If someone wants to draw a special map, he/she may keep this idea in mind...

[zegc-ben]

I would like also to ask you about my usefullness as a merc nation. I tried to offer interesting prices and I think I reached construction 4 before most nations and yet almost all my transactions were gem exchange, probably mostly because I was unable to give a good value to the different types of gems. When I offered to attack the AI only Ano answered ( you didn't "convince" me to attack Man, I wanted to do so but I needed your autorisation=) even though it was a great deal since I had around 15 elephants at that time. Later Septimus asked for two military operation and 2/3 items and this is it.

For the AI, I dont think the 125PD was the most important thing, the really crasy thing was the 50 to 100 indies per province around turn 5-6 with real armies of mamouth, knights, ... on top of that. The army who killed my elephants was stronger than the PD with certainly around 50 knights of the chalice.

[ano]

I tried to offer interesting prices and I think I reached construction 4 before most nations

You're mistaken. We were far ahead in construction at that moment and so we didn't need anything from you except the things we couldn't forge ourselves (and this was only a few items) without Machakan pretender who was able to forge virtually everything

[ano]

To conclude.
I do think that our team was the strongest by nations and pretenders selection if played properly (and I hope we did it). It was a bit unbalanced and even more so taking into account the enormous AI hordes and PD that our Princes could fight without problem. But, without doubt, it was not drastically unbalanced and I'm sure that the other teams, especially the Usurpers could perform much better if played correctly.
Also, the AI factor appeared to be too big in this game and this is what I particularly disliked. Game was over right before the fun was about to begin and we won by concession just because we fought AI better. I expressed my opinion regarding uber-AIs somewhere before, so nothing new here.
That's it. We made only one huge mistake - it was the loss of fully quipped Wight mage (Sickle+ Boots of the Planes) to Abysia because he refused to cast two "Resist Fire" spells (one from Fire school and another one from water+earth). Now I understand they give the same effect and thus don't stack but we didn't realize. He cast Blade Wind instead of fire resistance, gathered fatigue and died pitifully.

[Septimius Severus]

Originally Posted by chrispedersen

Sept, if you think that one team is unbeatable, then why play the game; if you think one team is unbeatable why set up those teams.

Nah. Didn't think any team was "unbeatable" in game 2 and though it would have been an uphill battle, Ano's team could have been beaten, just think those extra captain tweeks on the pretender blesses of Ashdod and Mictlan and having this nation or that wouldn't have made a huge difference because of the way things turned out. Btw, I won't be allowing those captain tweaks on the blesses in game 3, but the pretender lineup will get a revamp in game 3, so that every team has an equal number of viable, unique, and fun options to choose from. As balanced as can be for a theme based game.

Originally Posted by chrispedersen

I think ano did a great job organizing his team. But I think leadership is only about 35% of a game. Game design is probably 30% and diplomacy 35%.

I agree somewhat yes.

The game has so many variables that come into play as far as winning and losing that I don't think any one factor (such as a teams nation choices) by itself decides anything in the complete and final picture: Consider all of the following:

• Team planning and organizing
• Captains skill and experience level
• Player experience level
• Player skill level
• Team communication/motivation/determination
• Map geography and terrain (currently random)
• Starting location placement
• AI machinations and strength (where the AI expands, who it fights, or who fights it)
• Stength and type of Indies
• Luck and random factors (misfortune/luck scales, gem searching, random events, etc.)
• Diplomacy/Alliances
• Actions of the merc or human played indy nation

Then of course you've got the theme related elements:

• Team nation choices
• Team pretender choices
• Path restrictions
• Any special magic locations
• Faction specific bonuses (items, spells, heros, sites, etc)

My goal of course is to have the theme related elements play a bigger strategic role, but as you can see there is no single factor that will decide the outcome of a game like ours. That is what makes it so intriguing.

But you all have done a great job on keeping the input and feedback and discussions going here. I really appreciate it. I also encourage input and visits to the info and updates forum for game 3 http://noobsvets.silverforum.net/vie...1c9ca4785c2d67, which is open to all. Between Gandalf's work on the AI, DrP's work on the pretenders, and Cleveland's work on the map image, it is very much a collaborative effort.

In the meantime, I need something to wet my whistle. I see the traitors game is starting to fill up. I've also been considering admining my first non-team game. If I do, it will be small, relatively fast moving, and hopefully unique and interesting.

[ano]

chrispedersen

I agree with a number of your points ano.
Only an SC caliber PoD could handle most of the PD's. This was one of the points that I made at the outset - that the Usurpers had no thug and no SC chassis available.

However, PD was not even the start of the issue. Flying, berserk mammoths would have trampled even your PoD's. We killed more than 120 of them.

And they did trample our PoD's and they gathered a lot of afflictions.

[chrispedersen]

Originally Posted by ano

To conclude.
I do think that our team was the strongest by nations and pretenders selection if played properly (and I hope we did it). It was a bit unbalanced and even more so taking into account the enormous AI hordes and PD that our Princes could fight without problem. But, without doubt, it was not drastically unbalanced and I'm sure that the other teams, especially the Usurpers could perform much better if played correctly..

Yes the Usurpers did not play well. But even playing well there was not a thing we could have done to win that game.

Without an SC chassis, or forging, or water income, or a bless, or globals - there was no way for usurpers to be competitive. Sure we would have beaten caelum; we had in fact taken two of his castles. But fighting army v army we took hundreds of casualties. Which meant that turn after turn we fell farther behind Set.

[chrispedersen]

Originally Posted by ano

chrispedersen

And they did trample our PoD's and they gathered a lot of afflictions.

When did you fight Caelum. I had no spy reports of that. and we were able to observe every caelum territory.

[ano]

Eriu and Man also had a lot of mammoth. They could recruit each other's troops, as Gandalf said.