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  #1701  
Old November 2nd, 2023, 03:44 AM
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FASTBOAT TOUGH FASTBOAT TOUGH is offline
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Fallout Re: MBT's

From your article Dated May 2018 (1st ref.) page 34 lower left...
https://www.mca-marines.org/wp-conte...ive-System.pdf

"The Marine Corps is currently testing the Trophy APS on
the M1A1 Main Battle Tank (MBT)
in order to fill this capability gap for the tank and explore APS issues in general for all ground combat vehicles."

"In FY18–19, the Marine Corps will continue to improve the
integration design and procure up to nine systems for continued testing, TTP development, experimentation, system optimization, and integration into the GCE."

"The Marine Corps currently plans to procure a total of 56 APS special mission kits, capable of outfitting four Marine Corps tank companies."

So, FY 18-19 means OCT 2017 - Sep 2019.

The writing on the wall from the [b]Marine Corps Commandant Jul. 17th, 2019 and note the date compared to the above.

https://www.marines.mil/Portals/1/Pu...-17-090732-937


From Page 2.

"FORCE DESIGN
We should take pride in our force and recent operational
successes, but the current force is not organized, trained,
or equipped to support the naval force
– operating in
contested maritime spaces, facilitating sea control, or
executing distributed maritime operations. We must
change
. We must divest of legacy capabilities that
do not meet our future requirements, regardless of
their past operational efficacy. There is no piece of
equipment or major defense acquisition program that
defines us
– not the AAV, ACV, LAV, M1A1, M777, AH-1,
F/A-18, F-35, or any other program. Likewise, we are
not defined by any particular organizing construct
– the
Marine Air-Ground Task Force (MAGTF) cannot be our
only solution for all crises
. Instead, we are defined by
our collective character as Marines and by fulfilling our
Service roles and functions prescribed by Congress."


"Force design is my number one priority. I have already
initiated, and am personally leading, a future force design
effort
. Going forward, CD&I will be the only organization
authorized
to publish force development guidance on
my behalf. We will divest of legacy defense programs
and force structure that support legacy capabilities
.
If provided the opportunity to secure additional
modernization dollars in exchange for force structure,
I am prepared to do so
. Plans or programs developed in
support of this planning guidance that require additional
resources must include an accompanying resource offset
verified by a recognized analytic body (PA&E, OAD,
etc.) to be considered for implementation."

I hope the reader is tracking these dates.

By the Spring of 2020 Marine Corps tanks were starting to head to Army Depots for further modernization to meet the Army's goals for SEP 3 conversion. However, as we now know the Army is cutting production of the SEP 3 and have killed the M1A2C Program this past Summer as I've posted.

Operational Requirements changed.

2020 Summer of discontent.

Picture caption...
"U.S. Marine Corps M1A1 Abrams tanks with 2nd Tank Battalion, 2nd Marine Division are staged in a lot on Camp Lejeune, N.C., July 27, 2020. After serving 2nd MARDIV for more than three-quarters of a century, 2nd Tank Battalion will deactivate as part of the Marine Corps' modernization plan. (Patrick King/U.S. Marine Corps)"
https://www.stripes.com/branches/mar...m1a1s-1.639355

I recommend the reader strongly take a good look at the turrets and see what's missing.

Picture Caption...
"Marines with 1st Tank Battalion pose for a photograph in front of the last tank assigned to 1st Tank Battalion before its departure at Marine Corps Air Ground Combat Center Twentynine Palms, California, July 6, 2020. As part of Force Design 2030, tanks are being divested from the Marine Corps in an effort to accelerate modernization and realign capabilities, units and personnel to higher priority areas. (Courtney White/U.S. Marine Corps)"
https://www.military.com/daily-news/...sion-ends.html

Something is missing off this West Coast tank as well!!

To Clarify and makes things easy Camp Lejune N.C. WAS "tank East coast" for the USMC, while Camp Pendelton CA. was "tank West coast".

Interview with the same USMC Commandant in September 22-24 Modern Day Marine (MDM) Expo 2020

Picture Caption...
"Marine Corps Logistics Base Barstow, June 7, 2020. RailOps transports divested tanks and other heavy equipment from the USMC to the U.S. Army. Photo by Sgt. Jack Adamyk"
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news...oes-that-mean/

Something is still missing!?!

Para 3
"According to GDLS’s virtual Modern Day Marine Expo Booth, the first 66.68-ton M1A2 SEPv3s were delivered to U.S. Army’s III Corps based at Fort Hood, Texas, in 2020. The U.S. Marine Corps does not possess any M1A2s and operated the lighter and older M1A1 Abrams versions devoid of the M1A2’s 360-degree rotating Commander’s Independent Therman Viewer (CITV located to the front left of the turret) and the latest Depleted Uranium composite armor package on the front turret. Four M1A1 MBTs often are deployed with each Marine Expeditionary Unit (MEU) and these four tanks provide the heavy armor and firepower of the MEU aboard Amphibious ships."

Directly below ...

"The U.S. Army’s M1A2 SEPv3 is enhanced with these features:

Lethality: A Low-profile .50cal CROWS II Remote Weapons Station for the Tank Commander. New digital crew display panels and electronics. New datalink for programmable ammunition.

Survivability: Increased armor plates welded on the front turret and hull to balance the optional add-on Tank Urban Survivability Kit (TUSK) I and II armor packages and the Trophy Active Protection System (APS). Upgraded underbelly armor against blasts.

Range: Under-armor diesel APU for enhanced range and electrical power with reduced signature when at idle.

Power: Upgraded and greater electrical power distributed through the turret ring.

C4ISR: Multiple Command and Control C4ISR upgrades to improve situational awareness and Joint Forces’ cooperation.
M1A2 SEPv3’s unique external features: Enlarged frontal tow hooks (green in top photo) and rear track mudflaps.

The U.S. Marine Corps Were Upgrading their M1A1s
According to MarineTimes, the Marine Corps were in the process of upgrading their M1A1s with:

A slew-to-cue feature that allows the Tank Commander to move the 120mm main gun to where the Commander’s .50cal heavy machine gun is pointed to.

Improved Gunner’s Primary Sight day and thermal cameras that allows for better resolution and to see further out.

A new color camera and color display that allows for better color differentiation than the previous green and black color camera and display.

A new Gunner’s lower panel that allows the M1A1s to use two new types of ammunition developed by the U.S. Army.

New tactical communications radios."

The above is basically FEP and will note nothing in the "upgrade in progress" (Until divestiture.) is APS mentioned, unlike it was for the SEP 3.

It appears what I posted might not have been looked at in my last, so I'll just repost one of the refs.

Picture Caption...
"U.S. Army Deploys M1A2 Abrams Sep V2 Main Battle Tanks Fitted with Trophy Active Protection System (APS) to Germany"

DATE: Jul 20, 2020

Para 3:

"In 2019 Leonardo DRS, Inc. and Rafael Advanced Defense Systems Ltd. of Israel (Rafael) announced that the partners have delivered on time the first Trophy Active Protection Systems (APS) to defend the U.S. Army’s Abrams main battle tanks against a variety of anti-armor threats."

Para 4:

"On December 2018, U.S. Soldiers assigned to Company D, 1st Squadron, 1st Cavalry Regiment, 2nd Armored Brigade Combat Team, 1st Armored Division, tested the Trophy Active Protection System mounted on M1A2 SEPv2 Abrams main battle tank tanks at Fort Bliss in the United States."
https://militaryleak.com/2020/07/20/...ps-to-germany/

In Post 1699 (My last) you will notice what I just posted above is in the middle of that post and as quoted from...
https://www.dote.osd.mil/Portals/97/...0of%20vehicles
https://www.dote.osd.mil/

I really went to some pains to point out the dates to show between Army testing and the events leading up and including the Marines divesting and "sunsetting" tanks there is NO POSSIBLE way the Marine tanks could have APS.

Even if the only thing I had was just simply getting them transported to the Army's Depots for installation of APS and returning them it would take well over a year to two to get it done.

But you well know that wasn't going to happen. APS is an Army program and Army tanks will take priority for installation.

And if you really want to know why this situation bothers me; I would ask "Who asked whom" to look into the USMC FEP tanks? I put days' worth of effort into them and if I thought there was even a "maybe" about USMC tanks having APS, I would've submitted THEM THAT WAY.

Regards,
Pat
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Last edited by FASTBOAT TOUGH; November 2nd, 2023 at 04:24 AM..
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  #1702  
Old November 2nd, 2023, 05:20 AM
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Default Re: MBT's

Ok......... In 25 words or less..... this means what EXACTLY to the USMC OOB?

K.I.S.S.

( REALLY........ 25 words or less )
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  #1703  
Old November 2nd, 2023, 09:15 AM

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Default Re: MBT's

Inter-service fighting is always interesting. It's like watching the US Air Force scream over the Army having fixed-wing drones or other aircraft that upset that old Key West agreement of 48. Well, it mainly bothers the brass at the Pentagon.
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  #1704  
Old November 2nd, 2023, 12:45 PM
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FASTBOAT TOUGH FASTBOAT TOUGH is offline
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Fallout Re: MBT's

Testing timeline, divesting of USMC tanks and when USA actually got their first APS systems doesn't make it possible for USMC by the USA to install at depot and get the tanks back to USMC before their tanks went away.

I laid out the dates/timeline very clearly to show this.

Regards,
Pat
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  #1705  
Old November 2nd, 2023, 02:44 PM
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Default Re: MBT's

Quote:
Originally Posted by FASTBOAT TOUGH View Post
Testing timeline, divesting of USMC tanks and when USA actually got their first APS systems doesn't make it possible for USMC by the USA to install at depot and get the tanks back to USMC before their tanks went away.

I laid out the dates/timeline very clearly to show this.

Regards,
Pat
FINE Pat....... I take you at your word that you did a wonderful job of laying out " the dates/timeline very clearly to show this." THAT I HAVE NO IDEA WHERE THEY ARE AND I HAVE NO INTENTION OF GOING BACK AND WADING THROUGH ALL THIS AGAIN

So KEEP IT SIMPLE FOR ME because I didn't set up that OOB but I am the one who has to fix it

OK??

You seem to be saying that the USMC Abrams that have "CIWS" in the game SHOULD NOT HAVE IT because USMC would have lost all its armour before the work was done and the vehicles sent back from repair?


This is simple...... Is that correct??

YES or NO ?

One of two words is all I need right now
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  #1706  
Old November 2nd, 2023, 03:36 PM
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Default Re: MBT's

Quote:
Originally Posted by FASTBOAT TOUGH View Post
I really went to some pains to point out the dates to show between Army testing and the events leading up and including the Marines divesting and "sunsetting" tanks there is NO POSSIBLE way the Marine tanks could have APS.

Even if the only thing I had was just simply getting them transported to the Army's Depots for installation of APS and returning them it would take well over a year to two to get it done.

But you well know that wasn't going to happen. APS is an Army program and Army tanks will take priority for installation.

And if you really want to know why this situation bothers me; I would ask "Who asked whom" to look into the USMC FEP tanks? I put days' worth of effort into them and if I thought there was even a "maybe" about USMC tanks having APS, I would've submitted THEM THAT WAY.

Regards,
Pat
You have access to sources (i.e. paid subscriptions etc.) I don't so as always one you dig into something I'll take your word as gospel. I look at what sources I can access, extrapolate based on what I've seen/know (closest I ever got to being a logistic weenie was filling out the forms necessary to order parts/tools needed for/by a maintenance battalion ... which did work on tanks). I was under the impression the APS were ordered, received and tested thus the next step is obviously deployment, and an deployed MEU would have #1 priority. Thus why they're in the OOB, because it represents what's likely to be encountered on the battlefield.

Thanks for your time/efforts!
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Old November 2nd, 2023, 03:39 PM
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Default Re: MBT's

Quote:
Originally Posted by DRG View Post

This is simple...... Is that correct??

YES or NO ?

One of two words is all I need right now
As always I'm working on next years update/patch so I wouldn't worry to much about the matter AT THE MOMENT Don.
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  #1708  
Old November 2nd, 2023, 04:04 PM
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Default Re: MBT's

Yeah and I already said we are done farming out OOB work----that was aimed at you------ so write it down and I will sort through it but there will NOT be anything like what happened last time
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  #1709  
Old November 3rd, 2023, 01:01 AM
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FASTBOAT TOUGH FASTBOAT TOUGH is offline
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Fallout Re: MBT's

Don,
YES, that is correct. No APS for any USMC MBTs.

Got home from work less than 2 hrs. ago and have to do a dummy drag (160 lbs.) followed by a 2-mile walk (No jogging or running allowed auto disqualification) 30 min. in less than 8hrs. before I go back to work a little later in the day.

Regards,
Pat
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  #1710  
Old November 3rd, 2023, 02:59 AM
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Default Re: MBT's

Thank you.

Short and to the point I like a lot

I have now removed it from any USMC Abrams in the USMC OOB that had it
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