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  #21  
Old April 25th, 2021, 02:47 PM

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Default Re: Apache helicopter countermeasure

The best way to tackle Apache is to set its Armour to 2 and size to 3 or 4 with Mobhack OOB Editor. This get Apache back from fantasy to more realistic model in game.
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  #22  
Old April 25th, 2021, 04:16 PM
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Default Re: Apache helicopter countermeasure

I agree the size probably should be a 3 but not a 4. The Mi-24 is a 4 and the Apache is not as bulky as the 24 but I don't know if I agree the armour should be reduced to 2 without some further input
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  #23  
Old April 25th, 2021, 06:11 PM
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Fallout Re: Apache helicopter countermeasure

After researching and submitting the APACHE AH-64E GUARDIAN my vote is NO to reducing it's armor. I went to great lengths to make the case in the refs supplied. See Fastboat Patch Page Thread/Pg. 13/Post #123.

The rotor blades can withstand hits from 23mm AA/Engine cowling the same/Rest of the airframe from 12.mm with the canopy (nose/cockpit area further protected with BORAN Armor.

See para 5...
https://www.globaldefencenews.com/ah...copters-of-us/
http://www.military-today.com/helicopters/ah_64e.htm


No better armored helicopter exists in world that can match a Hind, but the APACHE isn't that bad either besides being faster and more nimble.

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POST SCRIPT: My early "armor" references look "dead" it was mostly discussed in the DID (404 CODE.) and DEFPRO sites. That's why I added the above sites.

Just checked OOB how does the AH-64E have the same armor numbers then the UNIT 936 AH-64D (Which I recommended for modeling purposes to make the "E".)? Except just looking back to my submission, I didn't make any armor upgrade recommendation it seems.
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Last edited by FASTBOAT TOUGH; April 25th, 2021 at 06:29 PM..
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  #24  
Old April 25th, 2021, 09:48 PM
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Default Re: Apache helicopter countermeasure

Quote:
Originally Posted by rel19 View Post
The best way to tackle Apache is to set its Armour to 2 and size to 3 or 4 with Mobhack OOB Editor. This get Apache back from fantasy to more realistic model in game.
The trouble with well armoured helicopters is they shrug off SAM hits to often if you are going to adjust anything it should be the SAM. Bigger warhead possibly like ATGMs which always cause damage if its stationary.
Reducing the armour makes AA guns & infantry fire to effective.

As to RPG use against them its so rare & only happens if the helo is loitering I would not want it in game.

A possible solution to the SAM armour problem would be to have SAMs apply damage in 2 stages. Does the initial calculation but then adds 1 damage all or most of the time to reflect the fact it did not escape unscathed.
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Old April 26th, 2021, 02:09 PM

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Default Re: Apache helicopter countermeasure

Armour 4 gives to helo ability to ignore hits of AA gun with caliber 20-mm and 30-mm. This is like magic shield when elves fight chaos horde in fantasy universe. In warm tube Steel Panthers this is wrong I suppose. So I have set armour to 2. It is enough for protection from 12.7 mm bullets.
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  #26  
Old April 26th, 2021, 07:03 PM
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Default Re: Apache helicopter countermeasure

Unfortunately due to the way armor works in WinSPMBT heat seeking anti-air missiles can't just ignore armor so MPADs tend to be fairly ineffective vs armored attack helos.

It's just "one of those things" you'll find in any game.
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Old April 26th, 2021, 08:46 PM

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Default Re: Apache helicopter countermeasure

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suhiir View Post
Unfortunately due to the way armor works in WinSPMBT heat seeking anti-air missiles can't just ignore armor so MPADs tend to be fairly ineffective vs armored attack helos.

It's just "one of those things" you'll find in any game.
The MPADs do tend to chase off the Helicopters both armed and unarmed or so has been my experience in the game. Nothing like do the short moves and hit the range and sights of an MPAD and now my chopper is doing all this weird move to get the hell out there after a near miss. Fun times.
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  #28  
Old April 27th, 2021, 12:37 AM

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Default Re: Apache helicopter countermeasure

Helicopters size comparison:

https://www.yaplakal.com/forum2/topic1688851.html

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  #29  
Old April 27th, 2021, 02:51 AM
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Fallout Re: Apache helicopter countermeasure

To Johns point...
Russian view of the STRINGER during the Afghan war in the late 80"s. If they were looking for them, it must've been because they weren't that effective against their aircraft or helicopters. Why else look for them in the first place-right?
https://www.rbth.com/history/329988-...k-for-stingers

I guess from our side...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archi...-a8e74ca34020/
https://www.businessinsider.com/32-y...anistan-2018-9
https://foreignpolicy.com/2010/07/28...-the-stingers/


Ukraine in 2014...
https://theaviationist.com/2014/05/0...-down-donetsk/

And finally something much more recent from FEB. 2021 article...
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/re...icopter-178185
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...ith-azerbaijan


The USA as reported by one of refs above, estimated that the STRINGER 1 (If you will.) had a 79% success rate against aerial targets (370 confirmed kills.) in the Soviet Afghan War.

Helicopters or even Jets of that time when forced to operate above the ceiling of the missiles just weren't as effective against the Mujahedeen.

It is important to remember there were other factors that lead to the Soviet withdrawal, Russians were growing weary of the war, economic issues at home and from aboard (We were on our way to a 600 ship Navy, not to mention all the "toys" the other services were getting at the time as well.)

Oh boy!! Really late-off to bed. Somebodies going back to work later this afternoon!!

Regards,
Pat
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  #30  
Old April 27th, 2021, 08:21 AM
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Default Re: Apache helicopter countermeasure

It may well be that the armour factor on flying thingies rejects too much damage. It may be code or it might be that OOB designers were too "enthusiastic" with the protection values assigned - SSI may have designed the game to only use 1 or 2 armour points and the larger numbers were not supposed to happen - I vaguely recall that things tended to be 1 or 2 maybe 3 in the old SSI oobs, armour-wise.

Some time this summmer I think I will look at the formula for air unit armour and how it actually works. Easier to tweak the formula than change hundreds of OOB units and then massage a zillion scenarios. (I vaguely recollect that its based on the weapon WH size vs armour value, been a few years since I last looked, mind).

It may be a simple thing like giving SAMs a chance on WH size or kill value perhaps, to ignore armour value on hitting or to "boost" the local WH size a bit inside the existing formula if it is a SAM hit.

Meanwhile - the best way I have found to kill armoured gunships in the game is to cath the little beasties in the hover and zap them with either a tank gun shot or an ATGM, That probably uses a different hit code than the Flak code. So the "problem" probably lies in the Flak routine (an HE hit) rather than in the hard target hit code (AP or HEAT etc).

Meanwhile - feel free to post your views up here and see if there is any consensus e.g. "SAM and Flak, too wimpy but AP shots are just fine on armoured aircraft".
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