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Old May 21st, 2021, 06:49 AM

Kiwikkiwik Kiwikkiwik is offline
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Default Vehicle flamethrowers

I had a look at vehicle flamethrowers and it was quite interesting. First thing I would say is that I would remove the Flame weapons ability to block LOS so high burst rates don't present a problem.
The game has two generic flamethrowers;
Wpn 83 representing a normal manpack firing about 1-2 litres per second out to less than 50m and with a HEKill of 25.
Wpn 108 the purpose built vehicle flamethrower firing a maximum of about 26 litres per second out to 100m and has a HEKill of 40.
But actually most vehicle flamethrowers performance are closer to the manpack than the vehicle weapon 108 but get the vehicle weapons hitting power and range. The number of bursts allocated often doesn't reflect the vehicle capabilities either.
For example
Crocodile fires flame at 26 litres/second out to 80m while Sherman E4-5 fires 3 litres a second out to 55m, but both vehicles get wpn 108 HEKill 40 and range 2.

So to get a more accurate range of flamethrowers in game we need to know the various flameguns flow rates, flame fuel tank capacities and ranges. Many are available here on page 104.
https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/221598.pdf
From that reference, with a few gaps filled in from elsewhere,

_________________Flame Gun Table

Gun_HE____________________Flow___Capacity___Range
No.__Kill____________________rate
___________________________ lt/s_______lt_________m

01 25 ManPack_____________1-2___not many_____<50
02 26 E 4-5(M3) Bow__________3______91 ________55
03 26 E12R2 periscope ________4 ___38/95 _____59-73
04 27 M3-4-E6R3 periscope _3/4/5_____177______37-55
05 28 Adder__________________6___113/227 ______73
06 28_Satan Ronson __________6_____643 _____55-73
07 29 14mm Flmwfr III _________8_____700 _____54-60
08 29 14mm Flmwfr 251 ________8_____700________37
09 29_Anlagen _______________8 _____________50-60
10 30 E7-7 turret______________9_____423 ____96-105
11 30 POA series _____________9____1098______55-73
12 30 E14-7R2 _______________9_____795_____96-105
13 30 USN MkI _______________9_____832_____96-105
14 30 Ronson_______________8/9_____273______41-73
15 33 E13-13 turret________5/8/14____1094______87-96
16 34 E12-7R1/E7R1 ______4/8/17____1124 _______114
17 34 T33_________________8/17____1003
18 36 Salamander _________17/20_____908______82-91
19 40 Crocodile ___________21/26____1817______76-82
20 40 Wasp_____________9/17/26_____454 _____91-110
21 50 Frog__________________45_____946 ________86

As you can see there is a full range of different vehicle HEKill values and ranges.
Different flow rates for a particular weapon correspond to different nozzle sizes larger nozzles give higher flows and longer ranges.

Courtesy of Ludeke Tanks of the USSR
22. 25 COP-24/KS-24___________________________35
23. 26 COP-25/KS-25___________________________50
24. 31 ATO-41________________10______100_____100
25. 31 ATO-42________________10______200_____130

Using the Gun tables HEKill values we can make the following changes to Flame weapons.
UK Keep 108 as is. Create wpns Gun No. 14. and 20.
Canada Keep 108 as is.
Aus/NZ Change 108 HEKill to 50 as Gun No. 21.
India Change 108 HEKill to 30 as Gun No. 5, Range can be 1 or 2.
USA Keep 108 as is. Create wpns Gun No. 2. 10. 16. and 17.
USMC Recycle 108 into Gun No. 10. Create wpns Gun No. 2. and 6.
Russia Change 108 HEKill to 31 for Gun No. 24/25. Create wpn Gun No. 22. and 23.
Germany Change 108 HEKill to 29 Range to 1.
Italy Change 108 HEKill to ~29 Range to 1.
Japan 108 Not required
Spain Change 108 Range to 1 HEKill is debatable, it is a large WWI German flamethrower.

Crocodile has 80 real bursts, in game it has 32, thats a decrease by a factor of 2.5 Ive applied this factor to all the following calculations for number of bursts. So I've divided fuel tank capacity by lts expended per second and then again by 2.5.

Gun___Unit___________Number of Bursts____Fuel___HE
No.________________Real Game/Adjusted_Capacity_Kill

UK
19 042 Crocodile______80____32/28________1800__40
19 042 Crocodile____________32/34________1800__37
20 042 Wasp_Mk_II __________6/7__________454__40
20 028 Wasp_Mk_II __________6/11_________454__34
20 028 Wasp_Mk_II __________6/20_________454__30
20 318 LVT-4(F)per gun ______12/7_________454___40
20 318 LVT-4(F)per gun ______12/11_________454__34
20 318 LVT-4(F)per gun ______12/20_________454__30
20 560 Wasp Mk I____________6/20_________454__30
14 561 Oke________25-30 ____7/15_________341__30
14 561 Oke_________________7/17_________341__29
Canada
20 042 Ram Badger_________12/4__________272__40
20 042 Ram Badger_________12/6__________272__34
20 042 Ram Badger_________12/12_________272__30
20 128 Wasp Mk2C__________7/5__________341__40
20 128 Wasp Mk2C__________7/8__________341__34
20 128 Wasp Mk2C__________7/12_________341__30
Aus
21 036 Frog__________18___16/9_________1100__50
21 036 Frog_______________16/7__________818__50
21 036 Frog_______________16/5__________509__50
India
14 107 Adder______________17/16_________363__33
14 107 Adder______________17/18_________363__32
US
01 311 M3A1 Flame________10/22___________54__25
02 011 M4 E4-5 Flame______15/12___________90__26
02 314 M4 E4-5 Flame______20/25__________189__26
10 318 E7-7(PTO)__________25/17 _________397__30
19 315 Crocodile_______80__32/28_________1800__40
19 315 Crocodile___________32/34_________1800__37
16 312 M42B3 E12-7R1_____20/24_________1040__34
16 312 M42B3 E12-7R1_____20/52_________1040__29
16 312 M42B3 E12-7R1_____20/104________1040__26
17 811 T33 E20-20________30/22__________946__34
17 811 T33 E20-20_________30/47 _________946__29
USMC
01 100 M3A1 Flame________10/22___________54__25
02 205 M4 E4-5 Flame______15/12___________90__26
02 208 M4 E4-5 Flame______20/25__________189__26
06 007 M3A1 Satan_________25/43_________643__28
10 203 M4A3 POA-CWS-H1__20/49________1097__30
10 008 POA-CWS-H5(75)____22/49________1097__30
10 204 POA-CWS-H5(105)___22/49________1097__30
10 206 LVT 4 Flame_________27/33 ________757__30
10 210 LVT(A) 4F(FM)*______25/20_________454__30
Soviet
01 593 OT-27_________15_____________________25
22 592 OT-26_________70___12/72________360___26
23 594 OT-130 40x5sec______15/72________360___26
23 595 OT-131 (P)___________9/80________400___26
23 596 OT-132 (P)__________12/80________400___26
23 010 OT-133________40___15/80________400___26
24 015 OT-34_________10___14/4_________100___33
24 286 OT-34_________10___14/4_________100___33
25 167 OT-34-85 ______20___14/8_________200___33
24 106 KV-8__________96___20/38________960___33
24 166 KV-8s_________80___20/32________800___33
Germany
07 051 Pz 38__________24___12/35_______700___29
01 190 Pz I ________10-12____8/5_________12___25
09 006 Pz IIper gun_____40___12/8________160___29
07 433 Pz III________70-80___24/50______1000___29
08 167 251 per gun_____80___10/35_______700___29
07 588 Pz B2 740(f) ____80___12/35_______700___29
07710 StuG
Italian
346 L6_Lanciafiamme________20/40______100/200_26
061 L_3-33/35 _____________16/104_______520___26
Japan
110 SS Ki (per gun) 01_______10/5__________12___25
Spain
717 Bilbao Flama____________8/________________??
718 PzKfpw I01 10-12________9/5_________12____25

HEKill is where the discharge rate falls on a line between 25 For manpack and 40 for churchill.
Repeat entries are for Flamethrowers with different flow rates according to which nozzle is installed.
For manpack flamethrowers installed into vehicles I have used 1lts/sec flow rate. Except for soviet units 592/594-6 and 010 ND Italian units 346 and 61 where I used 2lt/sec
Adjusted Number of Bursts can be halved by assuming two shots fired in the turn and increasing HEKill.

Some Errors etc in the OOBs

UK
Unit 560 Wasp MkI never saw service, picture is of Ronson Ronson Carrier never saw service. Here is a picture of what Wasp Mk I looks like.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/massimofoti/37515183516/
See
https://www.canadiansoldiers.com/veh...owers/wasp.htm
The 818 Ronsons shipped to Europe(England) by Jul 43 stayed in England (they had been deemed unsuitable for service and only used for training) to be later converted to MkII or MKIIC.
In his book book British battle tanks Fletcher says "1000 wasp mkI used only for training" He goes on to point out that Wasp IIs, Unit 128 (picture is of Ronson) first action was in 7/44 game has it available 5/44. Wasp Mk II doesn't have a MG as only two crew, so remove MG (Flamethrower is in bren slot). By the end of the war UK had adopted the Canadian wasp IIC layout (341 lt tank) with 3 crew.
Unit 991 Comet Crocodile only ever existed as an incomplete prototype and saw no service. See
https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/coldw...met-crocodile/
Unit 561 Churchill Oke, An experimental vehicle only used at the Dieppe raid, 3 made, 3 destroyed at Dieppe so service dates should be from 8/42-8/42 rather than games 8/42- 12/43.
Unit 318 LVT-4(F) not used before VJ day so start service date might be 9/45 instead of games 3/45.

Canada
Unit 128 Wasp Mk IIC picture is ronson which never saw service. IIC first available Aug44, game has Jun44.

Australia
Unit 036 Matilda Frog. British and American tanks of ww2 by chamberlain gives introduction date of late 44, game has 1/43 more than a year earlier.
This site
http://www.allworldwars.com/Portable...ld-War-II.html
Gives 1945 as the start service date. It also mentions that the vehicle went into action with just 112 gallons of fuel, because the jettisonable 100 gallon fuel tank wasn't filled, Fletchers book mentions that this fuel tank is vulnerable.
According to Fletcher frog could carry in total 1100 lts, however he says this
"it seems that the front and side reserve tanks were never filled when the frogs went into action." which drops the total to 818 lts. The "Frog" mostly went into action with 509 lt of fuel. Used mandatory 45.46 lt bursts, 20 sec delay between shots.

US
Unit 314 M4 E4-5 Flame is probably meant to be M4 with M3-4-3.
Unit 312 M42B3 Game vehicle has no CMG and crew of 5, Hunnicutt gives CMG and crew of 4.
Unit 811 T33 Game has start date of 1/46, BMG and 5 crew. Hunnicutt has first pilot delivered on jan 48, shows bmg removed and 4 crew, vehicle also has a second turret top flamegun with 50yds range that doesn't appear in the game. Vehicle development occurred over a long time, so actual dates of various removals and additions is unknown to me.
Unit 318 E7-7(PTO) See
https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2-u...-flamethrower/
Crew is apparently 3 not 4 as in game.
US unit 11 is same as USMC unit 205. US unit 314 is USMC unit 208. US Army didn't get these vehicles until after the Marianas operation so start date in US OOB should be after Nov 44 for both units, game has 6 and 11 of 44.

USMC
According to Hunnicutts book Sherman a history of the American medium tank.
Unit 205 M4 E4-5 Flame introduction date is July rather than June 44.
Unit 208 M4 E4-5 Flame is probably meant to be M4 with M3-4-3.
Looking at this footage
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZX7JY2mGgP0
and given the weapon is a "modified" ronson I would give the POA-CWS-H1-5 series range of 1.

Soviet
According to
https://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/w...oviet_T-27.php
Unit 593 OT-27 carrys a manpack flamethrower, game has Vehicle flamethrower.
https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/s...chemical-tanks
Unit 592 OT-26 MG is BMG not CMG. ie Turret ball mount.
Unit 594 OT-130 Production began in 1936 game has 35. MG is Turret mounted BMG not CMG.
Unit 010 OT-133 is Finland Unit 237
From Tanks of the ussr by Ludeke
From tank encyclopedia
"however, the last HT-26 tanks were used in 1942. The surviving HT-130 and 133 tanks were deployed in the Leningrad Military District and were used in the defense of Leningrad between 1941 and 1944." Game has much earlier end service dates.
Ludeke gives 45mm Ammo for KV-8 as 92, game has 116, KV-8s should also probably have 92, flame paraphenalia replaced some shell storage.

Germany
Unit 106 Flammpanzer II
The book Nuts and bolts PZ.Kpfw. II Auf D/E and variants provides these details
Turret had 30mm all round game has 2 for sides and rear.
Turret MG ball mounted so might be BMG instead of TMG.
Flamingo came equipped with smoke candles. Doesn't have them in game.
From
http://www.achtungpanzer.com/flam.htm
Unit 588 FwPzKw B2 740(f) There are 3 versions one with 160 lts, one with 500 litres and the production version with an very large external tank looking to be about prob 700lts. CharB production date supposed to be nov 41 game has 6/41 but that could be one of the earlier, prototype versions.
Unit 710 StuG III Flamm Speilbergers says this in his book Sturmgeshultz & its variants.
"none of the ten vehicles were used in combat" "after six months doing nothing at the front they were converted back into 7.5cm gun stugs."

Italian
Units 378 and 380 Fortino Alpino Flamethrowers are probably Fougasse not flame throwers so might be removed. Italian Socialist Republic also has these.
Unit 61 L 3-33/35 first used in Italian Somaliland on 4/36 game has start date of 10/43. Start date was much closer in v13 at 6/35 also lost its LF designation in v14. Unit 346 L6 Lanciafiamme also had the correct service start date in v13 now wrong in v14.
http://www.allworldwars.com/Portable...ld-War-II.html
Gives Italian Vehicle flame weapons range 30-40m
First employed in 1935 maybe this FT has something similar to the capabilities of the man pack model.

Japan
See
http://www3.plala.or.jp/takihome/s-s.htm
Unit 110 SS-Ki looks to have had the infantry flame weapon mounted with range less than 50m so should replace weapon 108 with 83. According to Rikugun it usually had one Flamethrower at front and then one on each side giving a total of 3 or a later version the BO from 1940 has 5 mounting points.The ball mounts could take either a flamethrower or MG so you could expand the vehicle armament into 3 MG or 3 FT or any combination therin.
SS Ki uses Type 89 Hull so armour front and sides of 5 and 3 look wrong. Rikugun has 25mm front and sides at 13mm. Type 89 gets front armour value of 3, hull side of 2. Not sure how the Tochca charge was used or actually even what it is? 8 vehicles were captured on Luzon in summer of 45 so maybe game end date of 1937 could be extended.

Spain
See
https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/s...i-lanzallamas/
Unit 718 PzKfpw I Flama last seen on 11/37, game finishes on 12/40.
Two existed, one with, one without, a cmg.

The Germans, Japanese and Italians never developed a suitable napalm to thicken up and increase the range of their flamethrowers. None of their flame vehicles had a range better than about 50m. All various sources confirm this. For example from
http://www.allworldwars.com/Portable...ld-War-II.html
"The effective range of German tank models was only about forty yards"

Fletcher mentions in his book
"Napalm and Fras (British Napalm) not used until DDay"
Which is relevant because for the US Navy Mk 1 flamethrower, Duration of fire was 55 seconds for gasoline and oil mixture, and 80 seconds for napalm.

The various date issue can be fixed by attaching OOB files to the scenarios.

The numbers I've used can be verified in these links and in the various books I have mentioned in the text.
http://www.allworldwars.com/Portable...ld-War-II.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrol...TEREFBanks1946
https://forum.warthunder.com/index.p...ors-of-dieppe/
https://www.canadiansoldiers.com/veh...owers/wasp.htm
https://www.canadiansoldiers.com/veh...ers/badger.htm
http://www.armorama.com/modules.php?...opic_id=245782
https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/a...ft-flame-tank/
https://olive-drab.com/idphoto/id_ph...amethrower.php
https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2-u...-flamethrower/
https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/U...ank-m3a1-satan
https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/US/sherman-crocodile
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United..._thrower_tanks
https://www.globalsecurity.org/milit...round/lvt4.htm
https://chicagoboyz.net/archives/259...26-oct-31-1945
https://armorama.kitmaker.net/module...=245782&page=1
https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/b279984.pdf
http://www.historyofwar.org/articles...ower_tank.html
https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/s...chemical-tanks
https://www.jaegerplatoon.net/TANKS4.htm
https://www.jaegerplatoon.net/TANKS4.htm#OT130
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  #2  
Old May 22nd, 2021, 07:59 AM

sigeena sigeena is offline
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Default Re: Vehicle flamethrowers

I have no idea there was such a great difference bwt the differing technologies of flamethrowers.

I like them because they allow me to gameily fire a hex to obscure LOS. It's like a permanent smoke hex.
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Old May 22nd, 2021, 08:57 AM
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Default Re: Vehicle flamethrowers

Just a possibility as a game all vehicles are given a a range of 2 for flamethrowers. Reasoning it lets the vehicle fire before it gets assaulted. This makes sense they wee feared its not a nice way to go. I believe it was not uncommon for one to turn up & the people surrender. All it had to do was fire flame in the general direction.
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Old May 22nd, 2021, 02:34 PM
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Default Re: Vehicle flamethrowers

For an interesting take on the subject:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpIoqyjWvzI
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Old May 22nd, 2021, 03:13 PM
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Default Re: Vehicle flamethrowers

Here more links about soviet flamethrowers on tanks with good photos

T-26 different variants
https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/s...chemical-tanks


BT tanks
http://forum.worldoftanks.eu/index.p...weapon-setups/

https://en.topwar.ru/173655-himicheskij-tank-hbt-7.html


Soviets before war sometimes created not specialised tanks but a regular with gun with special flamethrower as a addition with small tanks on mud breakers.



This installation was able for a few short bursts and installed on BT tanks instead of MG in hull. This tanks wasn't even consider as a specialised tanks. They were normal tanks in units with optional extra installation like OT-7 from picture.

Don't forgotten also about second type of use for flamethrower tanks they were used for build smoke screens to cover other tanks by soviet. So flamethrower can easy produce smoke instead of flame.

Last edited by blazejos; May 22nd, 2021 at 03:29 PM..
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Old May 25th, 2021, 11:21 AM
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Exclamation Re: Vehicle flamethrowers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwikkiwik View Post
Japan
8 vehicles were captured on Luzon in summer of 45 so maybe game end date of 1937 could be extended.
No. Read the game notes. There are two versions of that vehicle. The SS Ki with flamethowers that ends 8/37 with the info
Quote:
The vehicles were used as flamethrower tanks during what the Japanese referred to as the North China Incident in 1937 but for later battles, they were exclusively used as engineering vehicles.
which is why there is the 537 SS Tei Gata was added as a version of the vehicle without flamethrowers. The "error" is that there is a one month gap between the two and my intent was to keep the line continuous so the SS Ki still ends in 8/37 and the Tei Gata now starts 9/37.

I will look through this all ( eventually ) and apply any info I think will make any difference to game play.

The original SSI OOB's had two weapon classes for flame weapons and two basic types one infantry and one vehicle and I assume the vehicle version was given a general 2 hex range to allow vehicles the "luxury" of not having to be adjacent for the reason Imp gave in post #3 and for over two decades that's been accepted game design and it works apparently for 99.99% of players so rest assured there will NOT be 21 different flame throwers added to the game. One hex or two is all that's needed as this is and was always intended to be "a game" not a historical simulation and no matter what we do SOMEBODY will think we should have done something differently. What I will do is look at the code and see if there are any significant differences between the way WC 8 "infantry Flame" and WC 9 "Vehicle flame" are applied in the game.

Also, ANY idea that ends with "attaching OOB files to the scenarios." to accommodate OOB changes will NEVER, EVER be implemented.


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Old May 28th, 2021, 09:14 AM
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Default Re: Vehicle flamethrowers

Have a question what about secondary use of flamethrower tanks to build smoke screens. Is that possible to add smoke shots also to flame tanks?
As I understand now smoke is consider as a smoke grenade launchers in tanks.

About soviet smoke generator TPD-3 installed on flamethrowers tanks
https://en.topwar.ru/169060-sovetski...rom-tdp-3.html
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Old May 28th, 2021, 06:06 PM
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Default Re: Vehicle flamethrowers

X-fire the target hex as usual.

However, flame weapon effects on LOS are now variable, so you dont get the SP! "wall of impenatrable flam" effet unless you perhaps give the target hex a few doses of a larger WH flame weapon.
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Old May 28th, 2021, 06:10 PM

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Default Re: Vehicle flamethrowers

Hi blazejos I think chemical warfare tanks had either smoke or flame installations, that is they are two seperate tank types. A smoke tank might be an interesting addition to the game
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