Negative Damage - Noob question

[thejeff]

I believe all the status effects stay. Even when it makes no sense. Machaka often winds up treating its former prophet's spider as a prophet for example. And a spider rider killed by poison will leave his mount suffering poison damage, even though it's immune to poison.

[Bananadine]

I tested the hit point change. I tried hitting an earth elemental (sent via Earth Attack) with a 70-ish strength Kick attack. At large sizes, the elemental always changed from its maximal HP at its current size to its maximal HP at the next size down. But at around size 3, it started to take more damage than that. Once, for instance, I saw it change from 26/26 HP at size 3 to 1/18 HP at size 2. The number that appeared over it was 25, suggesting that that number is just (old HP) - (new HP). But later, the same elemental went from 1/18 to 1/10 in one hit, and the number that rose from it was 2. I don't understand that. Maybe its never-healing wound was involved (it had one of those; the penalty for the affliction changed from -3 to -2 due to the size change). I don't know. But damage does seem to carry over, at least sometimes.

Later, I tried casting Opposition on assassinating earth elementals. Once I got that spell to bring a healthy, size-5 elemental to 1 HP at size 4. Maybe the damage carries over but is cut off just before it would otherwise trigger a second size change. I mean, I guess only one form change per unit per attack is allowed.

Next, I tried casting Soul Slay on several Lamia Queens. As with Opposition on the earth elementals, this spell always brought its targets from perfect health in their first form to 1 HP in their second form.

Finally, I tried burdening a Lamia Queen with quickness, a curse, a horror mark, barkskin, and soul vortex before slaying her soul. Her second form still had all of these attributes.

[TheDemon]

That makes a lot of sense. So damage does carry over, but can never cause a second death.

edit: does this also apply to phoenix pyre?

[Finalgenesis]

Btw did you notice fatigue resetting to 0 on form change? =P

I wonder if this sometime rule work for elixir too, e.g. soulslaying something with elixir will leave it with 1 hp.

[Bananadine]

Since my test game is all set up now to hit Lamia Queens with extremely penetrating Soul Slay attacks, I tried these other things as well. According to a few brief tests:

Fatigue does not change when the form changes.

Losing all HP while Phoenix Pyre is active does not trigger any form change until AFTER the Phoenix Pyre effect has taken place. So, the unit may go to -983 HP or some such (the red damage bar goes all the way out the window!) and then become reborn with full HP, all in its first form. When I tested this with a fire-empowered Lamia Queen, that's what happened--then, the Lamia Queen was struck by another soul slaying, and this time she was too tired to be reborn, so she exploded and changed form instead (and also lost all but one of her hit points, after the form change, as in my prior tests). And after that... my Soul Slay caster went off his script and enslaved her mind, and she turned into a non-commanding, second-form Lamia Queen, which quickly regenerated (as lamias do) to 50/28 HP! That surprised me. But her new nation had Gift of Health going, so it makes sense.

Losing one's soul with an Elixir of Life in hand also does not cause a form change. It just causes afflictions (due to the great wound), refills HP, and destroys the item. This all happens very fast, unlike with Phoenix Pyre which has an explosion in between the wounding and the healing, and so you don't get to see any -983 or whatever. A damage number doesn't even rise from the unit.

One more thing I learned by accident: Stream of Life can cause a unit to go berserk while also "killing" it! ...Or it can cause a unit to become feebleminded, without wounding it or causing it to go berserk (my unit was probably healed when this happened, but I couldn't tell because she was already healthy). A strange spell.

[ExHeretic]

Interesting stuff

The way that damage carryover works makes me wonder bit is it or WAD... I mean why does it stop to 1 hp and not at full for the new form. Also those elemental tests suggests that it is working difrently on bigger targets than on small ones.

The fact that fatigue stays after the form change has some interesting effects too. For an example it makes fatigue spells much better against skinshifters and jaguars. Rain fire on them and they just change shape and fight harder but make them sleep and its game over for them

Poison is also probably better choise against jaguar warrioirs than i thought. If i can build enough poison to kill the first form then the second might go down aswell from the remaining green steam... Skinshifters have regen so poison is probably not so good against them.

I always thought that second shapes are not working with phoenix pyre. I guess i have only tried it with chayots. Not too many shapeshifters in game that have fire magic

All this shapeshifter info will be handy soon. im going to play as pangaea against LA Mitclan next. I will try those fatigue/poison tactics to see if they work or fail miserably