obat44 - West Germany

[DRG]

On the list.....

Don

[Arralen]

obat44 - W.Germany - Version Mar/2010

W#182 27mm BordKannon
- what is a "27mm BordKannon"? It's either "27mm on-board cannon", "27mm Bordkanone", or (better: ) according to german milspeak "Bordkanone 27mm" or (best: ) "27mm Mauser BK-27" - used in the Panavia Tornado, the Alpha Jet, the JAS 39 Gripen, and the Eurofighter Typhoon.

W#7 G3, W#8 G36, W#9 G11 ...
- G36 gets Acc 6 !?! .. G11 might be ok with "3", surely not G36 with "6".

U#229-241/250-252/257 and many more:
"PzGrenadiers" => "PzGrenadiere"
"Pioneers" => "Pioniere"
"Paratroops" => "Fallschirmjaeger" (sgl. & pl.)

U#519-523 Fernspah Sec
- it's "Fernspaeher" (sgl. & pl.)
- remove the "Sec", as it is not part of the name. "Trupp" would be correct. Strength is 4 or 6 men, depending on mission (objective) => 4 men "Trupp", 6 men "Verst(aerkter). Trupp", although I'm not sure if the later one is correct.
Info on wikipedia seems to be as correct as things can get with such units
- equipment is too heavy. Remove MG3 and all tank busting equipment. Add sniper rifles where missing. One could argue for satchel charges for special assignments, but those should be up to a scenario designer, not part of the standard OOB

U#495-499 "Mtn. Scouts"
- are basically duplicates to U#420-424 "Gebirgsjaeger" (which are properly named, at least)

U#52-54/118 Marder A3/A5
- does not get Vis40 (TI), but U#68 SpPz Luchs A3 does? Is the "Wärmebildgerät" used in "Marder" inferior to that used in "Luchs"?

U#93 Gepard A3
- End-of-Service is 31.12.2010. There are claims that some will be stored until Mantis/Ozelot is fully combat-ready, but as the Gepard is phased out because of maintenance/update costs, I doubt they would be of much use, and therefore used, at all, even if some are stored. (They like storing things, like severel 100k G3 rifles, so it's not completely unlikely)

U#103 M109A3G
- End of Service 31.5.2007. wikipedia (en, ge) has lots of source which seem reliable

U#153 105mm Section
- the "Feldhaubitze 105mm" is only used for salute any more. Most likely for decades (Artilleriereform '85 or something like that) EoS 2020 is obviously completly incorrect. http://www.deutschesheer.de/portal/a...%2Fcontent.jsp

U#155 155mm Section
- "Last unit (225th Mountain Artillery Battalion) converted to tracked artillery in 2002"


... there are many more errors I noticed skimming through the OOB, where
a) equipment is given as available years or even a decade after it has been phased out
b) equipment is duplicated, like having Milan-III in PzGr squads, and another Milan squad in the same platoon

Sadly, I don't have the time to check them all ...

[Arralen]

Stumbled upon the next one:

Unit #55/56 GTK Boxer
Is surely not available from 1/2007, but from 10/2010 at best - most likely later, considering all the delays that already happened
http://www.bmvg.de/portal/a/bmvg/kcx...ntent.jsp.html

That makes the following formations "hang in the air", as they won't have any transport before that date:

F#230/231 MRAV
F#235/236 MRAV Recce
.. and others ...

I would suggest using Unit #551 Fuchs 2+ instead - I'm not sure, but which other vehicle is reported to be used e.g. in Afghanistan?
MRAV Recce gets the Marder A5 - but that one can carry only 6, but the Jaegers are 9 men ... Btw., it looks like the Marders are not primarily used as APC, but as support "tanks", as the Fuchs APC only have MG3 ... .
Therefore it would make sense replace the Marder in the APC role, but add some additional ones as support .. wait, that's what the APC/IFV duality in that formation is for .. must have a closer look ...

[Marcello]

equipment is given as available years or even a decade after it has been phased out

Well defining end dates in a lot of case is a tricky affair, since the basic assumption for the game is at least a degree of mobilization.

U#52-54/118 Marder A3/A5
- does not get Vis40 (TI), but U#68 SpPz Luchs A3 does? Is the "Wärmebildgerät" used in "Marder" inferior to that used in "Luchs"?

OTOH the Luchs did get thermal sights in some upgrade, but I never researched Germany.

[Arralen]

Originally Posted by Marcello

OTOH the Luchs did get thermal sights in some upgrade, but I never researched Germany.

Both got their TI equipment during upgrades .. though it might not be the same one .. havn't found any credible sources 'bout what has been upgraded to - therefore it might be possible that the WBG used in Marder is of inferior type, maybe unable to see through smoke (though unlikely).

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Arralen

[
U#153 105mm Section
- the "Feldhaubitze 105mm" is only used for salute any more. Most likely for decades (Artilleriereform '85 or something like that) EoS 2020 is obviously completly incorrect. http://www.deutschesheer.de/portal/a...%2Fcontent.jsp

I have arrived at this portion of the " to-do" list and I just want to say thanks for the perfectly useless URL that contributes nothing whatsoever to knowing WHEN the 105's stopped being used by front line troops.

Originally Posted by Arralen

U#495-499 "Mtn. Scouts"
- are basically duplicates to U#420-424 "Gebirgsjaeger" (which are properly named, at least)

1/ Any non english naming in this or any other OOB has been added on the assumption that it will be easily interpreted by everybody, not just Germans. For good or bad we are living with that experiment in winSPWW2 and will not be repeating it in MBT.

2/ "basically duplicates"??. really ? Please explain how a 3 man scout team with reduced weaponry "basically duplicates" a 9 man infantry section.

Don

[Arralen]

Originally Posted by DRG

I have arrived at this portion of the " to-do" list and I just want to say thanks for the perfectly useless URL that contributes nothing whatsoever to knowing WHEN the 105's stopped being used by front line troops.

Yeah, ain't that great .. someone must have removed most of the content. Did some digging for you, and that's what I found:

1985+ ... the 105mm where moved into (partly) inactive reserve units ("Heimatschutzbrigaden")
https://www.blauer-bund.de/page.php?...&nid=499&rub=3
Bei der Artillerie sollte ab 1985 die Erhöhung der Geschützzahlen von 6 auf 9 Rohre und Verminderung um eine Feuerbatterie das vorhandene und durch Zulauf der Feldhaubitze 70 vermehrte Gerät ohne personellen Mehraufwand optimal nutzen. Das Rohrbataillon einer Division wuchs dabei auf 36 Geschütze an. Mit freiwerdenden älteren Kampfpanzern, Mannschaftstransportwagen M 113 und den Feldhaubitzen 105 mm der Korpsartillerie wurden die sechs Heimatschutzkommandos der Wehrbereiche zu "schweren" Kampfverbänden umstrukturiert (Panzerbataillon aktiv, Panzerbataillon teilaktiv, Jägerbataillon MTW, Jägerbataillon LKW, Feldartilleriebataillon 105 mm plus selbstständige Kompanien). Diese neuen teilaktiven Heimatschutzbrigaden Nr. 51 bis 56 ...

1993 .. gone !
"Feldhaubitzen dieses Kalibers befinden sich bei der Bundeswehr aber seit Anfang der neunziger Jahre nicht mehr im aktiven Truppendienst.
http://www.panzerbaer.de/guns/bw_fh_105mm_j.htm

Most likely with "Heeresstruktur V (ab 1993)"
https://www.blauer-bund.de/page.php?...&nid=499&rub=3
the units where disbanded/merged and the equipment removed from service, like e.g.
" FArtBtl.515 Kellinghusen LeFH-105mm A2 1993 Zusammen mit FArtBtl.185 Umbenennung in PzArtBtl.515
("merged and renamed to Armored Arty Bat." means they got M109 most likely) http://www.panzer-modell.de/referenz...ne/ari/ari.htm

So I would put the end date, if you want to model the reserve units at least somewhat, to 31.12.1992 or 30.6.1993 with some leeway for reorganisation.

1/ Any non english naming in this or any other OOB has been added on the assumption that it will be easily interpreted by everybody, not just Germans. For good or bad we are living with that experiment in winSPWW2 and will not be repeating it in MBT.

2/ "basically duplicates"??. really ? Please explain how a 3 man scout team with reduced weaponry "basically duplicates" a 9 man infantry section.

1/ .. sorry, what are you trying to tell me - that you're going to keep that german names? I surely won't object to this, but maybe you want things to be consistent, and switch all the "Mtn. Scouts" and "Mtn. Snipers" to "Gebirgsjaeger" or, as there actually are(!) units named "Gebirgsaufklaerer" (or "Gebirgsaufkl."), to the latter!
http://www.soldatentreff.de/modules....read&tid=23792

2/ Sorry, bad wording. Was in a hurry. Apart from that, see 1/

[DRG]

Thanks for the info on the 105. There was nothing anywhere on that in English and I tried every search combination I could think of. I had tentatively made the cut off 1996 but will adjust it back to June 1993.

I'm also still trying to find something other than a Wiki quote about the 155 towed arty OOS date. Understand that removing towed arty from the OOB means picklist changes which is fine, but I want to be rock solid on the dates before doing that because it's a PITA.

As for German names as I explained I have and will keep some but I'm not going to turn it into the winSPWW2 German OOB. The German language , as you well know, likes to string words together forming words much longer than the game likes and that in itself is one problem but it's the abbreviations that make it difficult in some case to ensure they are clear as to their meaning and I'm debating if "GebJg Spaeher" is clear to the average gamer ( it's clear to me but that's irrelevant, abbreviations are always clear to the one making them )so it may end up Germlish "GebJg Scout"

I also have an issue with one of your other statements

b) equipment is duplicated, like having Milan-III in PzGr squads, and another Milan squad in the same platoon

there are NO ATGM in any PzGr section in the German OOB...none. There is one ( 1 ) in a Para support section that makes up one part of para platoons from 1996 on. Therefore there are no platoons that have more than one ATGM per platoon and there is only one platoon like that

Other than that most of the issues have been dealt with along with the manpower issues in the MRAV formations



Don