MP: Lunar Sea - a second bout of modness. Closed - map selection underway.

[Dimaz]

I think Holy3 zero-research Charm for sacreds is a bit too much, probably as an anti-unit spell it's OK, but it really hurts when equipped thugs are converted by 0-res spell. Enslave mind effect seems more appropriate.

[Burnsaber]

Originally Posted by Dimaz

I think Holy3 zero-research Charm for sacreds is a bit too much, probably as an anti-unit spell it's OK, but it really hurts when equipped thugs are converted by 0-res spell. Enslave mind effect seems more appropriate.

Well, you got unlucky with your mr 16 thug. Remember that it is mr-negates easily. A good comparison on rarity is getting a no-penetration "mr-negates" spell affect a mr 20 unit. Holy is also a very difficult path to boost and thus get penetration for. Once you have access to Rune Smashers and Void Eyes, it's just more effective to put them on "real" mages. H3 mage with Smasher and Void Eye is just "charmer" with no boosts. Also, IMHO, you over-equip your rakshasha thugs. There is a point where additional items just make the unit more expensive without adding much of a function. Hence the "hurt" when you lost them.

And if your opponent is spamming (usually very expensive) H3 mages, well.. He is not recruiting mages. And I think we all know what happens when you do that.

[Dimaz]

Well, it's true that I talk from the events in this game, but IMHO currently the spell is not balanced in general. Of course when you reach charm and all boosters you will probably have better success using real mages. But in my tests 1 H3 + skellyspam for example was guaranteed to convert 1 MR18 commander within 50 turn limit, so it's not that rare (of course, in the particular situation in current game it's completely my fault as I knew test results before losing my thugs and still lost them). Also, as noted by Kuritza in private communication, with H3 0-res the AI really don't have much choice of what to cast, so it just keeps spamming this until MR fails.

[Burnsaber]

Originally Posted by Dimaz

Well, it's true that I talk from the events in this game, but IMHO currently the spell is not balanced in general. Of course when you reach charm and all boosters you will probably have better success using real mages. But in my tests 1 H3 + skellyspam for example was guaranteed to convert 1 MR18 commander within 50 turn limit, so it's not that rare

"+ skellyspam" -> entails how many D mages? 4? 6? 8? You really need a lot of them to keep a thug busy for 50 turns. So if a horde of mages can kill a thug, I don't see balance issue. It's just how dom3 works. Mages kill thugs. I'd also think that the specific situation of having a squad of D mages and H3 facing off against a thug is not "common". I also think that having a good counter for thugs in a mod that encourages people to take blesses is a good countermeasure. But I admit that the spell might be a bit too much as a 0-research spell. I'll probably make it researchable and move/create some another spell to take its place. I need to tweak with the spells anyway to reduce spell slot use.

[Dimaz]

It depends on constr level but actually 4 should be enough early on. My tests were with H4 prophet, H3 LK and 4 D3-D4 mages and the usual scenario was paralyzing and then charming 2 thugs. I can suggest changing zero-research effect to enslave mind (and probably upping to H4) and creating another spell around level 6 with current effect, that will more or less balance it as an interesting anti-sacred-SC tactic.

[militarist]

Ok, my opinion, is that if it's OP, it is not much OP in the context it can be used in reality.
H3 is not a kind of a path that many races have access to. Usually those nations which have H3 are not bless-rush nations. So early in a game it's just helps them resist thug - spamming nations. And ability of the nation to spam thugs in early game makes it much more imbalanced.

But I don't see a crime in increasing value of H path. It's done exactly because H3 costs a lot, but has very strong limitation in usage during each game stage. And if it helps human-sized nation to resist early rush of giants or demons (and, I agree with Burnsaber, shield + band would be already quite enough, just make more thugs).

And who complains? Classy case with Lanka, with S9 bless against which Ctis just can't have ANY chance in early game. Bad bless units, tramplers just don't work against S9. How Ctis could fight against these thugs at all? So in this situation this , quite unreliable in most of situations, spell just made death of Ctis slower.

How the nation with no thugs can fight early game with thugs at all? It can't counter attack effectively PD defended provinces, it can't send thug against thug, mages have no access to real spells yet. I think it's just a ballanicing answer.

And moving the spell higher in research will not help a lot. When you use such unit for expansion, it's not an effective investment. And you justdon't meet equipped thugs. And you rarely will choose hiring H3 priest instead of mage, unless you have Ermor or Lanka neigbour. Or, with this spell, maybe also giant nations. And how can you use these hired H3s other then fighting 1 nation? No flexebility at all in comparison to mages - no sitesearching, no research, no summoning.

So this spell defenitely doesn't make H3 human-sized nation an overkill. The nation which is not humansised and has H3 will always have a better choice what to hire (it will just hiring thugs or mages to research alteration/cons and do forging/sitesearching).

P.S. Just an idea came to mind...How would this spell work in communion, if cast by master? Will it be several charms for one turn, with increased penetration because of communion's level? If it will, than it can be a danger. But when you have a communion army, you usually have quite nice research anyway.

[Zeldor]

Yeah, C'tis H3 guys are so overpriced even in CBM. And just smite for that price never justified the price. Even with Chastisse they are not something you'd pick over a mage that can research and cast spells.

[GameExtremist]

Well that was annoying being told of losing an important battle yet watching the replay and winning decisively on the actual replay...gotta take the good with the bad I guess.

[Zeldor]

Maybe you have wrong mod or smth.

[Zeldor]

I will need extension for next turn [after this one hosts]. I am getting out for weekend and I will be back on Tuesday. Whole Finland will be drunk too, so no way to get a temp sub