StarFire Mod v-Beta 2

[President_Elect_Shang]

I guess I should kick this off a note of thanks to the following for giving me permission to work on the creation of this mod.

Marvin Lamb of SDS:
http://www.starfiredesign.com/starfire/welcome.html

Steve Walmsley of 3DG a great group that keeps StarFire 3rd Edition alive without pay:
http://www.starfireassistant.com/

And of course Aaron Hall for create the game we all know and love, and for being an all around great guy who is easy to talk to and always makes time for his fans:
http://www.malfador.com/se4.html

For those of you who do not know about StarFire we welcome your comments, this thread is not just to help us develop this Mod and hack out problems, it is also to allow the new the opportunity to become interested. Thanks for reading.

With the all clear given lets officially begin.

[ March 04, 2004, 21:30: Message edited by: President Elect Shang ]

[President_Elect_Shang]

Let me start by talking about the economy, this is by no means set in stone but I had to have a jumping point from which to start. I have as of now stripped the economy down to minerals only, this is intended to give us the chance to feel the balance of the game before we start adding back in organics and radioactives. On the other hand if the majority think it should be left out we can discuss this also, it would after all mimic the concept of MegaCredits that SF (StarFire) uses. Next to some great questions posed by Growltigger.
This will just be sporadic so sorry if I loose you.

1) Engine Rooms: the setting up of engine rooms can not be done in SE4G, the balance to this is that unlike SF one engine down won’t shut down the entire system. Engine Tuners will continue to work also.

2) Moving resources: Sorry, as it has been put before, you build the spaceport and it is all yours.

3) Point-Defense: The point defense in SF is much lower in range and damage than SE4G, to this ends I have followed cannon in range and set the Basic Point-Defense system to deal enough damage to kill at least one small craft*. Some point-defense system where dropped for one reason or another.

4) DataLink: It is in the Mod, but it is set to share best combat experience, mimicking the SF datalink is just not possible but I thought this way at least preserved the spirit of the system.

5) I had a great idea that I ran across the expertise of Imperator Fyron, it would have allowed us to mimic exploring a system to discover warp points, and allowed the introduction of hidden warp points. After careful consideration he has informed me that it is simply not possible to do so. Sorry. As far as cloaking planets go, I don’t really think that will work either. Sorry again.

I think that about covers it for now; I actually have a few moments to work on the mod** so I will check back here later. I hope that we can all introduce ourselves and together create one of the best Mods out there. Keep in mind that the beta will have problems, and that it will be the deciding factor of “Should we push on and fix the problems or drop it?” Start posting questions here and feel free to explore options without me, I will keep a steady eye on this thread and pick up where needs be.

*Small Craft: fighter, drone, seeker, satellite.
**Mod status: Components file at Tech Level 13, some known issues.

[Phoenix-D]

Cloaking planets can be done- see the Devnull Space Monsters for an example. In the next patch it'll be easier, too.

[President_Elect_Shang]

Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
Cloaking planets can be done- see the Devnull Space Monsters for an example. In the next patch it'll be easier, too. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Right, but it would not serve our purpose for the Mod.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Right, but it would not serve our purpose for the Mod.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">ARGH! SHANG'S A BORG! THE'RE SPREADING, THE'RE SPREADING!

[President_Elect_Shang]

Originally posted by narf poit chez BOOM:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">
Right, but it would not serve our purpose for the Mod.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">ARGH! SHANG'S A BORG! THE'RE SPREADING, THE'RE SPREADING! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">How could you! I thought it was our secret! He's a Borg too, we are in leagues together! My mission is to steal all your pLastic bags so you have to go back to paper; his is to steal your cheese so you have nothing to go with your wine!

[narf poit chez BOOM]

i'm NOT a borg. i have never refered to myself as 'we'. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif and how dare you accuse me of stealing cheese? how can it be called 'stealing' when the humans use such ridiculous traps? i mean, if they really didn't want us to have it, they'd use something better. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[narf poit chez BOOM]

on a side note, none of my arguements, today or yesterday, have been serious. i just wanted to argue. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

it can be fun. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[tesco samoa]

Steve Walmsley is he from Ireland...

If so I am related to him... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Find out.... for me

[Paul1980au]

Dunno if you are related but would be interesting.

[Growltigger]

This is the Starfire mod discussion, and therefor should be a borg free zone.

Anyone holding discussions about borg will be assimilated, bugger, I mean thrown off the thread

PES, what'cha gonna do with (i) overload dampeners, (ii) shear planes and (iii) tractor beams (they need to be more useful than they are in SEIVG, at least I have never used them)

[gregebowman]

Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
Cloaking planets can be done- see the Devnull Space Monsters for an example. In the next patch it'll be easier, too. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Are you talking about a Devnul mod patch? I'd like to see that, especially since I still haven't gotten around to playing it and I'd like to get the patch before I start.

[President_Elect_Shang]

I just had a new idea that I need some input on from you beta testers.

If I create all missile types as drones I can create the launchers with them to more closely mimic the SF setting.

The good: You will need to build ammunition, do ammunition load outs, use supply trains to transfer fresh ammunition to ships, and I will be able to more closely mimic the warhead types. I.E. (AM), (AAM), (SCW#), etc. multi-shot missile launchers (two shots per turn) will be possible.

The bad: Sprint type missiles will still try to ram a ship after the missile has fired, and I can not predict the effect this will have on game play. All cargo, including troops, populations etc, will need to be moved around in Mg. I could still create a cargo component however the AI would choose the larger cargo capacity for their ships. In other words it would not only be redundant but also give the AI and Non-Cannon players an unfair advantage. If I make the cargo component smaller than the Mg the fact still holds true.

This is merely a small “hiccup” that I could live with if you agree that it is worth the trade off. One another note this will set me back as I will need to create these components again.

Finally I will need experienced input as to this, if a ship is loaded with two or more types of drones I am not sure if the game will allow you to choose which ones you want to launch, and even if it does drones in tactical combat have no range limit that I am aware of.

Thoughts?

[tesco samoa]

P.S. my post

Steve Walmsley is he from Ireland...

If so I am related to him...

Find out.... for me

was directed at the Prez....

[DemoMonkey]

Shang

Suggestions

Missiles: Design 4 types of Missile Launchers. All should have the same cost, size, and damage resistance and are learned at the same tech level.

Missile launcher: Fires standard missiles (per SEIV)
AFHAWK Launcher : Fires every turn, the missiles have fighters/seekers as their target type.
Sprint Launcher: Direct Fire weapon with the same damage as a comparable missile but 1/2 range.
Capital Missile Launcher: Reload time increased by 1 or 2, damage increased by 50 to 100 percent, 3x the damage resistance to simulate it's toughness vs PD.

Since multi-function weapons can't be done, this allows you to simulate a ships varied missile load out by designing it with more, or fewer, of these components. The components are identical in size, cost and weight so that you can do a quick refit with a mobile space yard without having to redesign your ship, simulating changing your "ammo". You might want to up the component repair value on Space Yards and Repair Bays to facilitate this.

Your drone idea is excellent, but if I may, I think it's actually the perfect way to simulate Strategic Bombardment Missiles and SBMHAWKS, rather than "standard" missile types.


Hidden Warp Points: Umm, why not just use an empty space" bitmap for them?


I just finished the 4 Weber\White books, so I'm very keen to play this mod when it's done.

[President_Elect_Shang]

I have a few minutes between classes, let me see if I can bang out an answer, I am not use to this school computer so forgive any type-o's

The 4 launchers:
As I have it now there are two launchers, Sprint and Non-Sprint. So that part is covered.
The Weber books are great but they do not go into deapth on what the technologies are. The AFHAWK is actually two systems. The AF is a missile type and the HAWK is a guidence system that can not be simulated in SE4G. The AF (Anti-Fighter Missile) has already been added to the Mod. The Capital Missile Launcher can not be designed as you suggest because it would diverge from cannon too much. The actual Capital Missile can be fired from a Capital Missile Launcher but one is developed before the other and when the Launcher is developed it would over ride the early Missile Launchers since by cannon it is really just a larger Non-Sprint Launcher that can also do Sprint function in some cases (depends on the missile fired). Once more the drone option appears to be best.

Hidden WP will not work as Fyron pointed out, all the player has to do is click on the map untill they find the WP.

Edited in: As a Last thought the technologies you mention above all come about at diffrent levels, are reflected in cannon by diffrent sizes and costs, and I would like to stay as close to cannon as possible.

[ January 29, 2004, 18:09: Message edited by: President Elect Shang ]

[President_Elect_Shang]

tesco: Got word back from Steve, North-West England.

[DemoMonkey]

Shang

I don't know enough about how drones work to dispute that; I never use 'em. Personally I'd rather build fighters and ships than overpriced submunitions.

I still think all the missile launchers should be the same cost and size for ease of swapout. You may be right about them being at different tech levels, but they should all be the same tech branch at least.

As an aside, you could do XO racks by having parallel Versions of the normal racks, slightly cheaper and smaller, with the "Destroyed first" limitation of armour. (Mounts would be better, but I'm not sure you can give that limitation to mounts as opposed to components, and it really is the key limiter.)

And finally, a "canon" question: Capital Ship launchers ONLY fire Capital missiles, correct? So they don't supplant normal launchers so much as supply a different set of options. I think that's right, it's been a long time since I actually moved little cardboard counters across a hex map.

Thank you for responding to my suggestions. As I said, I look forward to this eagerly.

[Phoenix-D]

Originally posted by gregebowman:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
Cloaking planets can be done- see the Devnull Space Monsters for an example. In the next patch it'll be easier, too. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Are you talking about a Devnul mod patch? I'd like to see that, especially since I still haven't gotten around to playing it and I'd like to get the patch before I start. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, I'm refering to the next SE4G patch.

As for the mod: drones always have unlimited range, you can't choose which type is fired, and you can't lower the rate of fire to less than 1/turn. In addition if you do drones all launchers will be able to fire all types of ammo.

[Geckomlis]

Originally posted by DemoMonkey:
And finally, a "canon" question: Capital Ship launchers ONLY fire Capital missiles, correct? So they don't supplant normal launchers so much as supply a different set of options. I think that's right, it's been a long time since I actually moved little cardboard counters across a hex map.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Capital Missile Launchers (Rc) fire Capital Missiles (CM). Technically, the can also fire a Basic Missile (BM) or a Standard Missile (SM).

This leads to the question: What to do about Gun/Missile Launchers (W and WA)? They fire two different munitions.

[President_Elect_Shang]

I had to split the gun missile launchers; I could not get them to do double duty. That is to say fire in sprint and non-sprint mode. Your comment about the capital missile launchers is correct. They can fire most of the earlier generations of ammunition. I should also mention that according to the UTM 1.1 (Unified Tech Manual) which I am using to create the components there are many types of launchers (at higher tech levels) capable of firing capital type munitions.

About the drones, I would not need to drop the fire rate to less than one per turn. I could mod the launchers to fire two or more per turn, sort of like attacking the problem from the other side. This of course would create another imbalance. Ok so toss that idea out and I will stick to the two types I have now, Sprint and Non-Sprint launchers.

The problem with XO racks has been solved in my Mod; I think that the beta testers will be very surprised at how they work. The ammunition for them will need to be manufactured, but then again in SF (StarFire) you must manufacture, load out, and ship munitions. This is one of the more enjoyable aspects at least to me and to one of the other beta tester in the group. All of that aside it was also the only way I could get the XO racks to work.

DemoMonkey are you one the Beta Testers, I don’t think I got an email from you, but then again some of the beta testers came to me from other places than this forum. Either way keep the thoughts coming in; they are giving me food for thought.

Mod Status: Feeling a touch of the flu coming on but I am up to HTL 15 out of 16, some known bugs.

Beta Testers can you do a plug or two here to help me out some? I may be laid out with some medicine tonight and tomorrow, besides I would just like to have your thoughts on the great Posts placed here so far.

[ January 29, 2004, 21:10: Message edited by: President Elect Shang ]

[President_Elect_Shang]

Making better progress than I thought; Beta testers start emailing me with the address you want to receive the zipped beta at. Also I use WinRAR to zip (creates a ???.rar file), If this is a problem and you do not feel like getting the software for free than tell me in your check in email that you do not want it zipped.

Progress: HTL15 complete, HTL 16 is small, known issues. Next is vehicle file and 90 percent of that is already done.

[Growltigger]

President Elect Shang, dont know all the gobbledygook you are talking about with the zipped file and all that. I have just discovered fire so it may take me some time to get to understand all this zipped file stuff.

Personally, I think we are getting a bit too excited about sprint and non-sprint missiles.

As I recall, the whole thing about "sprint" weapons was that they could not be stopped by any point defence ergo they were short ranged super fast weapons. In the earlier Versions of starfire, the sprint missile launcher was referred to as a gun ie a linear accelerator chucking out effectively shells.

To avoid getting bogged down in the drone issue (and here I believe that having to build all your submunitions may be a right royal pain up the backside), why dont you simply redesignate the DUC as a sprint missile launcher, tweak its abilites to match starfire cannon, and bob's your uncle. Has the same effect, kind of looks the same, super fast missile that hits at short range, can be built in a capital Version (more damage etc or use the mount bases) and cant be stopped by PD?

You can then concentrate on the missile launcher types for everything else.

Re AMBAAMS, SBM etc I think you drones for this

[DemoMonkey]

(Disclaimer: I already made this post once, but it seems to have vanished. If you've read it before, my apologies.)

"DemoMonkey are you one the Beta Testers, I don’t think I got an email from you."

Nope, not a tester, just a run of the mill SEIV fanatic. The idea of a SF mod lured me out of lurkerdom.


Idea for closed warp points (cwp). If you can't change the rules, change the interperetation...

Assume that there are cwp galore, they're just all closed on both ends. (Yeah, yeah, I know, just go with it.) We can't say they are in any given place - of course, we can't say they AREN'T in any given place either.

Lower the tech level required for the component that opens warp points. We want people to have use of it, even in the midgame. Require it to also have a level in Scanners, as well as Stellar Manip. Rename it to "Advanced Warp Point Detectors". Or "Science Labs". Whatever.

So you build one, use it, and presto! You haven't ripped a hole in space and time, you've just "located" a warp point that was there all along.

Lower the numner of allowed wp per system from 10 to 4 to keep players from creating hub systems (yeah yeah, I know about Alpha C., let that slide too) and take the component that destroys warp points out entirely.

Net result? While it's not EXACTLY the same as cwp's in "canon", it does provide the same strategic risk of having the enemy suddenly pop up in your core systems. And it doesn't require any new mechanics.

I know this is a wordy description, but the change is actually quite simple. Simple enough that even I could make it, and when it comes to modding I need a drool cup and a helmet.

Hope that gives you some more food for thought.

(Chatty for my first week, ain't I?)

[President_Elect_Shang]

Man do I feel miserable, I hope to shake this flu soon. In the mean time I have an idea that I want to run past you beta testers.

I want to start all players at HTL zero (IND2) as opposed HTL1, I will adjust the Commercial Engine to become a HTL zero (IND2) system. This is a house rule that I played with and it always worked out pretty good. All other systems for building ships exist at the HTL zero (IND2) stage and I would like to keep this house rule in the Mod.

Thoughts, Ya, Na?

Growltigger: That is how I have them now; I will be keeping them that way, majority vote rules.

DemoMonkey: The problem with the WP idea is that in SF WPs can not be made they are all fixed and only closed WP can not be located until used from the open side. If I moded a component that allowed them to be created that would effectively eliminate WP defenses and along with that an entire line or two of technologies that evolved out of the defense and assault of WP. You are free to ask the beta testers to vote on the subject and I encourage ideas like this. I however am not too fond of the idea. Still majority rules.

Chatty for your first week? No keep the good ideas rolling in.

DemoMonkey I give you 5 stars for your thoughts and ideas, thank you and keep posting.

[ January 30, 2004, 15:54: Message edited by: President Elect Shang ]

[Dan Kochheiser]

Originally posted by President Elect Shang:
I want to start all players at HTL zero (IND2) as opposed HTL1, I will adjust the Commercial Engine to become a HTL zero (IND2) system. This is a house rule that I played with and it always worked out pretty good. All other systems for building ships exist at the HTL zero (IND2) stage and I would like to keep this house rule in the Mod.

Thoughts, Ya, Na?
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">As a house rule, that is interesting, but for Starfire, this would make IND-2 races more useful than they are in cannon.

I'd prefer that the Ic and I stay at HT-1.

Also, is Alkelda Tech going to be used?

[DemoMonkey]

Shang

Hope you feel better soon.

Yep, I know my idea doesn't work EXACTLY the same way. But ask yourself the tough question - would you rather have something that has the same game effect as cwp's (ie, the potential for unexpected attacks and rude surprises) even if it's not identical, or have nothing? Which is worse, a game where cwp's don't operate exactly as they do in the source material, or a game without them entirely? Which is more heretical?

"If I moded (sic) a component that allowed them to be created that would effectively eliminate WP defenses "

Ummm, isn't that exactly what makes cwp's so nasty in the first place?

And as for not "making" them, look at it this way. When you use one of the suggested components, you are NOT making a new warp point. You are "finding" the open end of the warpline that's already there.

[President_Elect_Shang]

Right Dan, I follow just what you are saying. I did not intend to include this house rule in the Mod however it struck me that unlike SF in SE4G IND-2 would not be present. I would have to modify them in as neutrals, even then unlike the rules they would be able to develop HTL1 fairly quickly. I could not mod the AI non-neutrals in as IND2 or that would give the human players far too much of a head start. My point for suggesting the change is that I really couldn’t see any practical application for IND2 at all. I feel that a change would be best, if we do not give HTL Zero (IND2) an engine of some sort than I feel we should at least combine all HTL Zero (IND2) and HTL1 systems into a single unit.

Feedback?

Forgot to address your question. No AD at this time; if this Mod works out I may look into adding it at a later point as an update.

[ January 30, 2004, 17:39: Message edited by: President Elect Shang ]

[President_Elect_Shang]

I also forgot to include that with the change to HTL Zero (IND2) I will need to adjust the tech level at which ships are developed. My Suggestion is:

Ships: EX/ES/CT
Bases: BS0/BS1
Freighters: FT0/FT1/FT2

Move down to HTL Zero (IND2), or we can do the alternative (stated below) and combine IND2 and HTL1.

[Fyron]

You could always just use racial traits to control what sort of building each race can do, based on whatever those options mean. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[President_Elect_Shang]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
You could always just use racial traits to control what sort of building each race can do, based on whatever those options mean. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Good suggestion but it does not apply here.

[ January 30, 2004, 18:32: Message edited by: President Elect Shang ]

[Dan Kochheiser]

Originally posted by President Elect Shang:
Right Dan, I follow just what you are saying. I did not intend to include this house rule in the Mod however it struck me that unlike SF in SE4G IND-2 would not be present. I would have to modify them in as neutrals, even then unlike the rules they would be able to develop HTL1 fairly quickly. I could not mod the AI non-neutrals in as IND2 or that would give the human players far too much of a head start. My point for suggesting the change is that I really couldn’t see any practical application for IND2 at all. I feel that a change would be best, if we do not give HTL Zero (IND2) an engine of some sort than I feel we should at least combine all HTL Zero (IND2) and HTL1 systems into a single unit.

Feedback?
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If Ind2 doesn't have a real impact in the mod, does Ind1 and PreInd?
Iff they don't you might just combine them all into HTL-1. Most players prefer facing these techs or higher anyways, because they are finally a threat.

[President_Elect_Shang]

IND1 and Pre-IND I left out as they have no bearing in SE4G.

So the vote is:
a) Combine HTL Zero (IND2 in SF) into HTL1 and start all players out at HTL1
b) Adjust Commercial Engine (Ic) and the below list of hulls into HTL Zero (IND2 in SF) and start all players at HTL Zero (IND2).

I really wish that 0 did not look like an O, it kills me to type Zero each time but…

I have one vote for A. Beta Testers I need some input and fast, also need you to email me with the address you want the Mod sent to. So far I only have one response.

Mod Status: Components file: 100% known issues
Vehicle Mounts file: 100%
Vehicle file: 100%
Tech Area file: 5%

Edited with Mod status

[ January 30, 2004, 21:05: Message edited by: President Elect Shang ]

[clc19k30]

I vote A.

[Fyron]

If you would like more input from those that have not played Starfire before, I suggest you write up a post with definitions of these terms you are using that are specific to the game Starfire. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[President_Elect_Shang]

I think Fyron has a very good point; I will start here and as people ask just add to this one post rather than creating a dozen. If I miss some please feel free to point it out. These will just be short answers but should be good enough to provide a working definition.

Pre-IND = before the industrial revolution
IND1 = Industrial revolution up to Computer Revolution
IND2 = Computer Revolution to Intersystem Exploitation (In the Mod this is HTL Zero)
HTL1 = Extra Solar Travel on up.
3rdR = StarFire 3rd Edition
AD = Alkelda Dawn Expansion (not in Mod)
Ic = Commercial grade engine
I = Military grade engine
WP = Warp Point
UTM = Unified Tech Manual (Currently v1.1)
UTR = Unified Tech Rules, book soon to be released that will consolidate all 3rd
Edition rules into one easy to reference manual.

ISF = Imperial StarFire, rule book covering command and control of an empire at the strategic level of play.

[ February 07, 2004, 17:56: Message edited by: President Elect Shang ]

[Fyron]

I suggest a different abbreviation for Starfire than SF, as it overlaps with Starfury, MM's newest game, so might lead to unnecessary confusion down the line.

[President_Elect_Shang]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
I suggest a different abbreviation for Starfire than SF, as it overlaps with Starfury, MM's newest game, so might lead to unnecessary confusion down the line. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I understand your point; however for us SF was StarFire for over a decade before StarFury. I think we will stick with that meaning; it should not take to long (given the threads name) for others to figure out what we mean. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

The SF comment was actually to keep non-StarFire and StarFire players alike from getting this Mod mixed up with StarFire 4th Edition anyway. This Mod is not based on StarFire 4th Edition; allow me to point that out one more time.

[ January 30, 2004, 22:55: Message edited by: President Elect Shang ]

[Dan Kochheiser]

Originally posted by President Elect Shang:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
I suggest a different abbreviation for Starfire than SF, as it overlaps with Starfury, MM's newest game, so might lead to unnecessary confusion down the line. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I understand your point; however for us SF was StarFire for over a decade before StarFury. I think we will stick with that meaning; it should not take to long (given the threads name) for others to figure out what we mean. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

The SF comment was actually to keep non-StarFire and StarFire players alike from getting this Mod mixed up with StarFire 4th Edition anyway. This Mod is not based on StarFire 4th Edition; allow me to point that out one more time. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">then why not use 3rdR since this is being based on that ruleset plus UTM, from what I can tell so far.

3rdR is the Starfire 3rd Edition Revised
UTM is the Unified Tech Manual

Dan

[Growltigger]

President Elect Shang, I vote A, my gut feel is A, combine it all, A rules etc.

OK, you should now have my e-dress for sending the beta to. Look forward to kicking things off.

Re the sprint mode missile thing, oh bugger, oh well, what are you going to do with DUC's anyhow?

Get well soon

[President_Elect_Shang]

Following Dan’s suggestion I have changed the below post of abbreviations/working definitions you may see used in this thread.

Choice A or Choice B? The A’s have it, all IND2 will be combined into HTL1, Mod HTL Zero (IND2 3rdR) will be combined before release of the Beta and all players and AI will start at HTL1. HTL Zero (IND2 3rdR) will be dropped completely.

Good morning Growltigger and get back to work! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
I have your info added and shot back a reply, my mind is running a little slow, DUC?

[Growltigger]

President Elect Shang, I have already been hard at work for 7 hours whilst you were tucked up in your wickle bed!

DUC's - SEIV standard depleted uranium cannon, which I thought would make good sprint missile systems and which you dont.

I wondered what if you were using DUC's in your mod, and if so, what they were going to be in the Starfire universe

[President_Elect_Shang]

You got me there; I had to get out of bed to get the kids off to school so I wonder if that counts for anything? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I must have misunderstood your question earlier, or maybe I just didn’t explain enough, DUC’s are what I am using for sprint weapons, they really do look just like they are portrayed in the books and rule description don’t they; coincidence? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif

[Growltigger]

President Elect Shang (crikey, that is a long monicker, can't I just refer to you as "Chuck" or "Wubbles"?)

Case of crossed wires then, I had the thought that DUC's make good sprint weapons, you have had the same thought and have built it into the mod, ergo, no worries, great minds obviously think alike - no problemo etc.

What'cha using for force beams and energy beams?

[President_Elect_Shang]

Wait to see, he-he-he. you can just call me PES.

[Dan Kochheiser]

Originally posted by President Elect Shang:
Wait to see, he-he-he. you can just call me PES. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Cool! I'm talking to a PEZ Dispensor!

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[narf poit chez BOOM]

President Elect Shang (crikey, that is a long monicker, can't I just refer to you as "Chuck" or "Wubbles"?)
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes! Wubbles The Borg!

[Paul1980au]

Yes some interesting tech adjustments to the mod in this mod - looks interesting some ideas for MM to implement for the actual unmodded game Version say Version 1.9 realise.

[President_Elect_Shang]

Originally posted by Paul1980au:
Yes some interesting tech adjustments to the mod in this mod - looks interesting some ideas for MM to implement for the actual unmodded game Version say Version 1.9 realise. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I wrote to Aaron about the possibility of adding in an adjustment or two so that the Mod would be more “fluidic”, he was very kind and considered them for possibly a future update however it is to late for this next patch. What ideas did you find interesting? Speaking of ideas did anyone here read the thread about different engine types? Man will they be surprised if this mod gets off the ground and they see commercial and military grade engines, yes that is right, I got them working now I need to test them.

No progress on the beta this weekend. My time was spent preparing for a class that I have tomorrow (had to read 5 long and boring chapters) and preparing to send out a care package to my wife. I expect to pick back up by Wednesday however this may push the beta test back. Speaking of which I have only had four beta testers check in so:

Beta testers send me an email for the address you want to receive the beta file at. If it is all the same to you four I would like to open the floor back up for more volunteers, not that four is a bad number but at least five would be good. I had originally wanted ten, but tough luck as they say.

[Magnum357]

Hey guys, its been a loooonnnng time since I have played any SE4 and was pleased too see some people actually trying too make an Starfire mod. I have been a long time Starfire fan and I would like too help out in anyway I can too make this mod possible.

First though, I must ask, what is this UTM? I only have SF 3rd edtion and a few other expansion maunuals so can someone give me a little insite on this? Also, I keep hearing over the Internet that they made a 4th Version, is this Version a lot different then the 3rd? I heard it had a lot simpler rules for Strategic play.

I really don't have any rule suggestions for this, but I would like too make a suggestion about implementing Ic into Tech Level IND2. how about making a Lower grade Ic (maybe call it Ice where "e" means "Early") where it has severe limitations on movement compared too other engines in the game. Not sure how too do that yet though.

The only other thing I could help out at is Ship artwork. I use a 3D program called Milkshape 3D that I use extensively and I always thought about making Starfire ships with it. Granted, we don't really know what the ships in Starfire look like, but what I could do is make some Generic looking vessels where all races have the same style, but each race would be differentiated by Logos/Color Stripes too represent a different race of ships. Kinda like how Homeworld has their ships in that game. Any opinons about this?

[Dan Kochheiser]

Originally posted by Magnum357:
Hey guys, its been a loooonnnng time since I have played any SE4 and was pleased too see some people actually trying too make an Starfire mod. I have been a long time Starfire fan and I would like too help out in anyway I can too make this mod possible.

First though, I must ask, what is this UTM? I only have SF 3rd edtion and a few other expansion maunuals so can someone give me a little insite on this? Also, I keep hearing over the Internet that they made a 4th Version, is this Version a lot different then the 3rd? I heard it had a lot simpler rules for Strategic play.

I really don't have any rule suggestions for this, but I would like too make a suggestion about implementing Ic into Tech Level IND2. how about making a Lower grade Ic (maybe call it Ice where "e" means "Early") where it has severe limitations on movement compared too other engines in the game. Not sure how too do that yet though.

The only other thing I could help out at is Ship artwork. I use a 3D program called Milkshape 3D that I use extensively and I always thought about making Starfire ships with it. Granted, we don't really know what the ships in Starfire look like, but what I could do is make some Generic looking vessels where all races have the same style, but each race would be differentiated by Logos/Color Stripes too represent a different race of ships. Kinda like how Homeworld has their ships in that game. Any opinons about this? <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">UTM is the Universal Tech manual which condensed all techs but Alkelda Techs into one rulebook.
There is a 4th edition of Starfire called Galactic Starfire or GSF.
3rd has had SM#2 come out which revised the game to streamline the strategic game and cleared up some other rules. Currently in production is the URD, or the Unified Rules Manual which is condensing and clarifying all rules from all sources into one book for 3rdR.
Their is a website for Starfire at www.starfiredesign.com (http://www.starfiredesign.com)
From there you can learn about all of the products, order new ones and join the mailing list for Starfire.

As for having additional Beta's, the more the better for testing purposes.

Dan K

[Growltigger]

Wubbles, I am going off on business for a couple of weeks. I will have access to my laptop, so will check into the forums when I am bored (about every 15 minutes), but dont have SEIVG set up on the laptop, so wont be able to beta test for a couple of weeks.

Gives you time to get all your DUC's in a row (geddit? geddit?)

Sayonara Mr Wubbles

[President_Elect_Shang]

Originally posted by Growltigger:
Wubbles, I am going off on business for a couple of weeks. I will have access to my laptop, so will check into the forums when I am bored (about every 15 minutes), but dont have SEIVG set up on the laptop, so wont be able to beta test for a couple of weeks.

Gives you time to get all your DUC's in a row (geddit? geddit?)

Sayonara Mr Wubbles <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I will miss your colorful insight but I understand. Have a safe trip; you know that your spot is always guaranteed reserved.

I get it,
Mr Wubbles Out.

[Growltigger]

Mr Wubbles, that name has now stuck - you should change your sig and member name.

Off topic but here is a warning to having nicknames - at university, I went through a stage of being called "Nippy the magical duck" (it is a very long story and yes, it does involve beer).

I recently was doing a deal in London, the room was full of lawyers, accountants, businessmen etc all screaming at each other. Yours truly took the floor and called for silence, to give his worthwhile opinion and advice on a point of law. One of the accountants was with me at university, to help me, he hushed the meeting up and with the words "let's see what Nippy has to say on this".

I still have not lived it down, and my clients are sending me faxes and emails addressed to "Nippy". ANd when they found out about the magical duck bit, bugger bugger bugger

Cheers Wubbles, be in touch

[President_Elect_Shang]

Before I run off to my classes I just wanted to share a thought. It seems to me that we are getting a pretty good balance here, allow me explain. We have:

Dan K: Bringing heavy 3rdE experience to the Beta.

Growltigger and Myself: Bringing a roughly balanced level of experience in 3rdE and SE4G.

Magnum (If he decides to join): Bringing heavy SE4G experience.

Shaping up nicely if I do say so myself. Not that I am against more joining mind you, but I could not have hoped for better symmetry.

PS: If Mr. Wubbles does stick than I will consider changing it, but then again I would need a new avatar. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Edited in:
Magnum: Let me address your point about the Ic, I would have liked to do some adjustment myself however the majority vote (3 for option A, 1 for option B) won out. So IND2 will be combined with HTL1. I could have done something close to your suggestion by making the IcE (as you called it) larger, but not much else.

[ February 03, 2004, 14:32: Message edited by: President Elect Shang ]

[Growltigger]

Here is a Crie de Cour to all Starfire Mod posters and lurkers.

As a matter of a monicker for Galactic domination, we surely must all agree that "President Elect Shang" is just, SOOOOO yesterday.

I hereby move the beta testers to vote for PES to formally change his name to MR WUBBLES.

If he does that, I shall change mine to MR FLOPPY. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Dan Kochheiser]

Originally posted by Growltigger:
Here is a Crie de Cour to all Starfire Mod posters and lurkers.

As a matter of a monicker for Galactic domination, we surely must all agree that "President Elect Shang" is just, SOOOOO yesterday.

I hereby move the beta testers to vote for PES to formally change his name to MR WUBBLES.

If he does that, I shall change mine to MR FLOPPY. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I second that!

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[narf poit chez BOOM]

as the contributer of the second half of the moniker, ie., 'The Borg', i get an automatic vote and third that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[President_Elect_Shang]

Fair enough than, two more votes and you will be Mr Floppy and I will be Mr Wubbles. Man will we have a hard time explaining that one. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Fyron]

I vote in favor of the Wubbles!

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Vote For Wubbles The Borg In 2004!

[President_Elect_Shang]

Originally posted by narf poit chez BOOM:
Vote For Wubbles The Borg In 2004! <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You can't vote twice! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

[narf poit chez BOOM]

i'm not. i'm campaigning!

Vote For Wubbles The Borg In 2004!

[Magnum357]

First of all, I have too say I like how this Starfire discussion is going. I'm sorry too say I will be too busy too participate in any Beta Testing (too many other projects too do) but I will work on the ship sets as I have some unique ideas that I would like too try out. Lets just say if I pull this off, the ship sets will look similar too the Table-top counters in the board game, but will also look futuristic-like the PC game "Homeworld".

But I do have two questions for you guys about this mod. First, what are you going too do about the "Missile Interdiction" rules? If I recall, if a doesn't have any Propulsion Feild Drive going (ie. All Ion Engines Destroyed) then a Nuke can cause 10X more damage then if the Feild was established. I can't see anyway this could be modded into SE4G unless someone here has an semi-solution too make this work.

Second question. One thing I liked about Starfire is the ability too customize ship configuration anyway you want. A race could have several different classes of the same type of hull and systems, but arranged differently in its DAC chart. Since SE4 doesn't have any type of DAC too speak up (basically random chance too hit all components) I propose an alternative idea in order too create a similar concept. In one other mod I was reading a while ago, some of us came up with the idea of using an "Inner/Outer" hull idea for components. Inner Hull components would be basically the components you see in SE4 where you just place them inside your ship, but Outer Hull components would be components in SE4 that have "Armor" capability and thus would be damaged before Inner Hull components take damage. So when you design your ship, each tech system could have an "Inner Hull" component and an "Outer Hull" component with Armor capability that would get damaged first. Granted, this would mean more work creating more components, but would also allow you too make more unique designs with ships, and it would give importance too Primary Beams in the mod. If I recall, Primary beams skip certain systems in SF. Having Primaries skip the "Outer Hull" componets (Armor Tech system in SE4 terms) would give the Primary Beams their SF capabilites (somewhat) in the mod.

What do you guys think? Would the "Inner/Outer" hull concept be a semi-solution that people could except?

[Fyron]

Leaky armor is great, and done well, adds a lot of strategic variety to ship designs! Keep in mind it needs a lot more hit points than most other "internals" to have a good chance of being hit first. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Originally posted by narf poit chez BOOM:
i'm not. i'm campaigning!

Vote For Wubbles The Borg In 2004! <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Wubbles The Borg! Wubbles The Borg! If He Couldn't Blow Bubbles He Wouldn't Be Wubbles The Borg!

[Growltigger]

Originally posted by narf poit chez BOOM:
[QUOTE]Wubbles The Borg! Wubbles The Borg! If He Couldn't Blow Bubbles He Wouldn't Be Wubbles The Borg! <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hmmm, evidence of the hysteria that always seems to attend any election campaign being organised by Americans. Someone please take Narf Poit Chez Boom out, preferably with a bullet to the head.

Missile interdiction, gosh, I had forgotten about that. It would be wonderful if you could mod that into the beta, but I do suspect that it will not be possible.

Damn it though, the only time I came across this rule is when my opponent developed "Pursuit Cruisers" armed with the missiles which blow your engines. He chased one of my damaged superdreadnough divisions, blew their engines and then laughed at my amazement when his missile volleys vaped my ships. Snikkin' frakkin' rikkin' rakkin' anyway, I wiped out his fleet at the Battle of Deneb so ho hum. Wubbles, can you confirm or deny whether or not missile interdiction is possible? can you make a missile that does ten times damage if it hits a target with no engines? (it would have to exclude bases, PDCs etc).

Turning to the inner outer armour concept, I agree with you that one of the things that is slightly depressing about SEIVG is that so far as I can tell, the only effect of your components on the list is the order in which weapons fire. I like your idea, I really do, again, Wubbles, is this something you can do in the Mod?

[Dan Kochheiser]

Missile interdiction, gosh, I had forgotten about that. It would be wonderful if you could mod that into the beta, but I do suspect that it will not be possible.

Damn it though, the only time I came across this rule is when my opponent developed "Pursuit Cruisers" armed with the missiles which blow your engines. He chased one of my damaged superdreadnough divisions, blew their engines and then laughed at my amazement when his missile volleys vaped my ships. Snikkin' frakkin' rikkin' rakkin' anyway, I wiped out his fleet at the Battle of Deneb so ho hum. Wubbles, can you confirm or deny whether or not missile interdiction is possible? can you make a missile that does ten times damage if it hits a target with no engines? (it would have to exclude bases, PDCs etc).[qb][quote]

Can something like this be done?

[quote][qb]Turning to the inner outer armour concept, I agree with you that one of the things that is slightly depressing about SEIVG is that so far as I can tell, the only effect of your components on the list is the order in which weapons fire. I like your idea, I really do, again, Wubbles, is this something you can do in the Mod? <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">How are sheilds being modeled?

Dan K

[President_Elect_Shang]

Well I was having a great debate with my History professor so I need to change gears, however let me address these questions.

Magnum: Sorry to hear that you can’t beta test but by all means tackle the ship sets. Send an email to the address I provided and I will send you a list of the updated ship hulls, I have the feeling that you are working off of the pre-UTM hulls. Also should you enlist any other aid let me know so that can give proper credit. If you do get aid from others than I will trust you to act as the “Lead Designer” and follow your recommendations (it will save you from having to ask me for guidance) unless it is something far out of lines with the StarFire motif, but I seriously doubt that will be the case as you are really working unrestricted already. *Motif? Define StarFire motif?*

Inner and Outer Hull: This is a fair idea but I can see too many complications with it:

First is the damage. If I where to increase the tonnage structure of a component that sits on the Outer Hull I would have to increase the damage of all weapons so that a single hit could still destroy that system, this would mean that a single hit could destroy multiple Inner Hull systems.
Second is the AI factor, I can’t say for certain but it would seem to me that the AI would have a hic-up applying the actual armor component to a ship that has components with armor traits. Let’s say that I set the AI to create ship A with two points of armor and it adds two components with the armor trait, now it has no need to add actual armor as it has just satisfied the requirements.
Third it would still be random, if you have two components with the armor trait (component A and B in that order) it can not be guaranteed that A will be damaged and destroyed before B. The sought after effect is still missing.
Fourth: I could increase the tonnage structure of Inner Hull components to make up for the lop-sided effect of the Outer Hall, yet still is the fact that anything with the armor trait is fair game for damage. In other words it would be nuts to loose your “Outer Hull” missile launcher before all of your armor is gone. Then again I could increase the tonnage structure of all armor, and then I would have to increase the damage of all weapons that hit armor, then that would be too much damage on internal scores, increase their tonnage structure… See the dilemma?

So “Leaky Armor” just won’t work in this mod and still keep a balance. Now on to the Last item, I saved it for Last on purpose. The issue of the interdiction field, I may have an idea that will work however that is something I think should be addressed “off forum”. Once I create the outline and an explanation as to the idea I will email my proposal to the addresses you have provided me. Mr. Floppy at what address should I contact you, or would you prefer a private message for ease?

Almost forgot, shields, they are modeled just as normal shields in SE4G. I could not see any difference between the two except that 3rdE shields interdict scanning and that was easy to add in. I can not say for certain that it will work and there is no way to avoid scanning a ship once combat has started. Other than this one “flaw in application” it should by all rights work just as in 3rdE, beta testing needed of course.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Hmmm, evidence of the hysteria that always seems to attend any election campaign being organised by Americans. Someone please take Narf Poit Chez Boom out, preferably with a bullet to the head.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm Canadian. That means i'm a North-North American. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

*picks up a sign that reads 'Shoot The Tiger!' and starts marching* http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ February 04, 2004, 16:53: Message edited by: narf poit chez BOOM ]

[DemoMonkey]

Re: Missile Interdiction.

It's possible to have a weapon do multiple damage to shields. Is it possible to have a weapon do normal damage to shields and multiplied damage to everything else?

If so, set up missiles to do that. Then, add a small shield generating function to engines. Not much, 10 points per engine regenerative. The end effect; if you knock out the shields and the "drive field", the missiles slam home for massive damage.

Yeah, yeah, the engines will still be there. Life's imperfect.

Glad to help.

[Fyron]

It's possible to have a weapon do multiple damage to shields. Is it possible to have a weapon do normal damage to shields and multiplied damage to everything else? <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes. Multiply its damage by 4 and give it the 1/4 damage to shields type. This gets the exact same effect, in that it will do "normal", expected damage to shields, and 4x to everything else. There is also 1/2 damage to shields, and 2 times damage to shields.

[ February 04, 2004, 19:56: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[DemoMonkey]

Excellent. Do that thing he said.

Thank you Fyron.

[President_Elect_Shang]

I have given it very careful thought and the interdiction effect of the I and Ic will not work. The [obvious] problem that I see with Fyron’s suggestion is that even after all engines are destroyed the interdiction effect would continue until the Last shield generating component was destroyed. If that is the case then it is no longer the interdiction effect that you know of from the books and we 3rdE’rs know of from cannon.

[Fyron]

You can not have a weapon with 2 damage types. So, you can not have "shield generators" damage and "1/4 to shields." 1/4 to shields means that it does 1/4 the damage to the shield points, not the shield generators themselves.

[President_Elect_Shang]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
You can not have a weapon with 2 damage types. So, you can not have "shield generators" damage and "1/4 to shields." 1/4 to shields means that it does 1/4 the damage to the shield points, not the shield generators themselves. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes I know, but I do not see where you are going with this comment, it has nothing to do with what I just posted so I am assuming this is based on an earlier comment? Can you explain your point some more, it may lead to yet another line of thought.

[Fyron]

I now think that DemoMonkey was hoping for some sort of combined 1/4x to shields and engine damaging weapon, given the nature of your (second to Last) post. I am not sure though, but better safe than sorry. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Dan Kochheiser]

Originally posted by President Elect Shang:
I have given it very careful thought and the interdiction effect of the I and Ic will not work. The [obvious] problem that I see with Fyron’s suggestion is that even after all engines are destroyed the interdiction effect would continue until the Last shield generating component was destroyed. If that is the case then it is no longer the interdiction effect that you know of from the books and we 3rdE’rs know of from cannon. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, by cannon, the sheilds AND the DF have to be down for the nukes to multiply thier damage. So as a mechanic, it would work as long as Engines and Sheilds are the only things with this attribute.

Dan K

[DemoMonkey]

To clarify what I was going for: A weapon that does massive normal damage, but only 1/4 damage to shields,

AND

Engine components themselves generate a small amount of shields.

So when the normal shileds and the "drive field" (the small amount of shields generated by the engines) have been knocked out, the weapon will gut a ship like a fish.

Shang (or is it Wubbles the Borg now?)

Please allow me a respectful criticism.

By not accepting any suggestions that fail to conform perfectly to the source material, you are yourself, in fact, not conforming to source material. Engine interdiction DOES exist in the source material, so by not putting ANYTHING in to represent it, you are ignoring your own canon.

At the risk of repeating myself from the closed warp point discussion - a compromise solution that preserves the flavour and metagame effect of something is better than just pretending it isn't there at all because you can't get it to work perfectly.

Of course, as the person in charge of the project these things are, of course, your call. However if your position is "It must work EXACTLY the same as the source material or it will be left out entirely, no matter how important it is to the strategy and tactics" then please say so and I can stop wasting your time.

I still, of course, support the project and look forward to it's completion.

Thank you.

[Growltigger]

DemoMonkey,

Good post my man, but I must say in Wubbles' defence that as a general point, I do not believe any of us are setting out a policy whereby if a suggestion is non-canon, it is ignored.

I think the thrust of Wubbles' point is that it may be next to impossible to accurately reflect the interdiction field with the limitations of the mod, so what we are trying to do is find a solution which is (a) workable and (b) if not canon, then a suitable compromise on canon.

That is why I think Wubbles asked you if you could recall whether the damage multiplier for nukes applied if both shields and the interdiction field were down.

NB It is years since I looked at the 3rd edition rule book (I found it in the loft over the weekend, hidden between my wife's pony rosettes from when she was 15) but, I seem to recall that shields operated outside the interdiction field, therefore you had to thrash the shields, and knock down the engines, before you got multiple damage.

If this is the case, then what I think Wubbles is saying is that this could be modded.

The problem is that if we decide we want an interdiction effect, then we need to work out how best it can operate between SEIVG and SF canon.

The whole point of this exercise is to set up a group of people with both SEIV and SF experience to try and batter out a workable compromise.

Keep the suggestions coming as you seem to have more of an intuitive feel for the Starfire system than certainly I do. And my eyes glaze over when you start getting technical on the damage multipliers. Me just want mod on plate.

[DemoMonkey]

"So when the normal shileds and the "drive field" ..."

Of course, first we have to mod the game to include "shileds"...

[Growltigger]

Actually, that is a good point. What happens in the Mod if Wubbles turns out to be a bit dyslexic, so that the rest of us have to build "lihgt curisers" armed with "forec bemas" and "poont defuns"?

Could drive everyone madder than badgers http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[President_Elect_Shang]

Ok this Friday as a release for the Beta just is not going to happen, as I sat down Last week and decided on Feb 6 it seemed a really good date with plenty of margin for error. However those real world events can often sneak up on you and since Saturday I have been running around putting out one fire after another. So as I sit here today and look down range I think that I can safely say that Friday the 13 is a good date. HA-HA-HA, maybe I should change that now…

Demo: I got a little lost with your comment, although I appreciate the criticism I have to point that although I may have forgotten about the interdiction effect who can blame me, I have created this mod from scratch and by using the few elements that could convert over from the first Version of it. When you pointed out the interdiction effect I immediately recognized it and started to work on including it into the mod. When I lost sight as to how it could be done reasonably I asked others for help. This can be seen in my below Posts, in particular the one to Dan K pointing out that the shield effect remaining after all drives are knocked out may not be of consequence.

I really do thank you for all that you are suggesting, and also for volunteering to work on the ship sets, but you must keep in mind that if the proposed idea to the mod strays to far, no matter who thought it up (i.e. my idea about adding an engine at a lower tech level), than it won’t get added. Your point about the interdiction field is great, if Dan K is right about the shields AND drive field comment than hope is alive and it should be doable. But if he is wrong (I hope not) than what you are proposing wonders to far off cannon and I could not agree with adding it in. On the other hand there is always the vote of the beta testers that can override me.

This is lengthy so let me sum up my point, I don’t want you to feel that I am ignoring your comments or anyone else’s and I don’t want you or anyone else to feel or think that I hold “ultimate power” over this mod. I try to stick to cannon, once the beta is done and tested non-cannon features can always be added, till then non-cannon features could be added but I would need to be convinced or the majority of the beta testers would need to request it. Finally cannon features maybe missing, because I have done a lot of work so far and I am human I am bound to forget, just remind me.

The comment about the warp point is also one that I did not ignore; it just can not be done. If I add it in than for what good or reason? The AI will not be tricked into looking for it, as Fyron pointed out the path-finding AI can not be modified, and a player need not search for it, just click on the map until the left panel pops up and says (in effect) here is a warp point. So I hope you can see that I did not ignore you. It just can not be done in a way that would work. Keep in mind that I am constrained by the limits SE4G places on me.

[President_Elect_Shang]

Good thoughts MR Floppy and thank you. I also want to include the interdiction effect into the Mod. That is why I am asking for help on this one, maybe I should explain how I understand the interdiction effect as working and this may help out others to point out my error:

1) It is an “effect” not a “function” likes shields. A unit that has powered down or has no engines may raise shields but will not get the “benefit” of the interdiction effect.

2) Any unit that does not have a drive field and thus does not have the interdiction effect suffers x10 damage from any missile with a warhead of: Nuclear, Anti-Matter, Advanced Anti-Matter.

3) Some "units" get the interdiction effect due to station keeping drives.

Is this right?
3rdE Revised rulebook P#19 rule 03.11.07: “A starship which shuts down (deactivates) all of its engines has a 360 degree field of fire but loses the missile interdiction of its drive.”

So nothing about shields, thus my point (the reason my spirits got crushed) is that to mod in the Interdiction Effect we would need to (1) use a SE4G ability other than shields or (2) accept that the interdiction effect will not work as it should and push ahead (now that I have a new deadline I think it can be done) or (3) let the idea go (as it means wondering too far off cannon to accomplish), maybe not for good, but at least for now.

Edited in:
Mr Floppies I just wanted to touch on your comment about the shields and the interdiction effect. The drive field that provides the effect extends past the point of the shields. Remember that the interdiction effect is not a “shield”; all it is doing is “shorting” out the missile guidance and “fooling” it into detonating the warhead early. If shields extended past the drive field than to play the game you would first have to apply the missile damage at x10 against shields then reduce damage until the Last engine is destroyed, then increase damage back to x10.

[ February 05, 2004, 16:41: Message edited by: President Elect Shang ]

[President_Elect_Shang]

Originally posted by Growltigger:
"poont defuns"? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hay I like to point at deez buns, they are so shapely and every one should look at deem! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Dan Kochheiser]

Originally posted by President Elect Shang:
Darn what a shame, I had actually belt up anticipation over night thinking that you were about to introduce the problem from a new angle. What a shame, well short of any other ideas I remain with the position that the Interdiction Effect can not be replicated.

But then wait Dan K appears on the horizon, are you sure about drives AND shields? I have to call you on this one, what page and book? <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm sure. And it's in the game since 2ndEd of the game. If you go by the latest rules, then you will need to look up the 3rdR book and look under damage rules. I don't have my book here at work so I'll get the page to you once I'm home.

Also further look at the shield description. I'll come up with all this data once I have researched the books at home.

But for a basic explination, the Shields sit outside of the DF, not inside it.


Dan K

[ February 05, 2004, 17:12: Message edited by: Dan Kochheiser ]

[President_Elect_Shang]

In the 3rdR by the "SDS" it states:

3rdE Revised rulebook P#19 rule 03.11.07: “A starship which shuts down (deactivates) all of its engines has a 360 degree field of fire but loses the missile interdiction of its drive.”

Also in 04.04 pp1 it says "Drive field interdiction is lost when the Last drive field fails." It then goes on to say that ""Shields Down" allows special weapon effects" one of which is not x5 damage from missiles. Also in the same rule (04.04) look under #1 “Weapons with warheads” you will notice here that it clearly says this effect is caused by the drive field and not the shields. It is also worth noting that the damage is x5 not x10, that was the old 2ndE Rules, if the drive field is outside the shields or vice-versa is all interesting but not the point, Mr Floppy I can not answer for sure where the heck it is, I know that you are asking for just the sake of knowledge but I don’t want us to get bogged down here.

All rules aside, guys can we do this and still accept it as a worthwhile compromise, Beta Testers should we vote?

A) Pursue the option
B) It can not be done close enough to warrant the variation from cannon.

Also keep in mind that I have HAD TO vary from cannon to get this far in the creation of the Mod, we can always shelve this until later and that is what I would like to do.

[Dan Kochheiser]

Originally posted by President Elect Shang:
In the 3rdR by the "SDS" it states:

3rdE Revised rulebook P#19 rule 03.11.07: “A starship which shuts down (deactivates) all of its engines has a 360 degree field of fire but loses the missile interdiction of its drive.”

Also in 04.04 pp1 it says "Drive field interdiction is lost when the Last drive field fails." It then goes on to say that ""Shields Down" allows special weapon effects" one of which is not x5 damage from missiles. Also in the same rule (04.04) look under #1 “Weapons with warheads” you will notice here that it clearly says this effect is caused by the drive field and not the shields. It is also worth noting that the damage is x5 not x10, that was the old 2ndE Rules, if the drive field is outside the shields or vice-versa is all interesting but not the point, Mr Floppy I can not answer for sure where the heck it is, I know that you are asking for just the sake of knowledge but I don’t want us to get bogged down here.

All rules aside, guys can we do this and still accept it as a worthwhile compromise, Beta Testers should we vote?

A) Pursue the option
B) It can not be done close enough to warrant the variation from cannon.

Also keep in mind that I have HAD TO vary from cannon to get this far in the creation of the Mod, we can always shelve this until later and that is what I would like to do. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Because I said I would do this...

The exact quote to look for in SF3rdR page 22 rule 4.04 section 1 3rd paragraph it says "If, however, a starship, BS, or SS loses it's drive field, it also loses the drive interdiction effect. Thus any missile, gun hit, or mine that inflicts non-shield damage on a unit without a drive field inflicts five times normal damage."

See the inmportance here is that the the damage has to be NON-SHIELD and the DF has to be down for the 5x damage to occur.

Dan K

[President_Elect_Shang]

Ha-Ha! I don’t think I have been this happy to be wrong in a very long time, have a beer on me Dan K you earned it! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

So it can be done, all we need to do is figure out what to do about that “other” problem we have been discussing?

[President_Elect_Shang]

Darn what a shame, I had actually belt up anticipation over night thinking that you were about to introduce the problem from a new angle. What a shame, well short of any other ideas I remain with the position that the Interdiction Effect can not be replicated.

But then wait Dan K appears on the horizon, are you sure about drives AND shields? I have to call you on this one, what page and book?

[Dan Kochheiser]

Originally posted by President Elect Shang:
Ha-Ha! I don’t think I have been this happy to be wrong in a very long time, have a beer on me Dan K you earned it! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

So it can be done, all we need to do is figure out what to do about that “other” problem we have been discussing? <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well folks, I think we did it. The Interdiction Feild will be in the Mod. Wubbles wanted me to announce it. Thanks for DemoMonkey for the original idea to base the effect. And Wubbles for figuring out the technical stuff. I just played the small part of idea initiator for the end result.

And Wubbles, Uncle says "One more thing..."
I realized that Tug designs will have a very interesting new capability.

Dan K

[Magnum357]

Ok, if Shang does want too add Feild Interdiction rules, how about this proposal.

How about making SF Sheilds "Phased Sheilds" and make the Ion Engine sheilds "Normal sheilds" in SE4G? Instead of worrying about making Missiles 1/4 damage values, just make "Phased Sheilds" (SF sheilds) worth 1 hit value and make the Interdiction Feild (Normal sheilds) worth 5X value. At the mean time, have all beam weapons use the "Sheild skipping ability" too by-pass the Ion Engines sheild effects so that they are not effected. This would unfortunetly make Lasers loose their SF's "Sheild by-pass" effect (because they wouldn't by-pass the Phased sheilds) but this solution would be close (unless their is an ability in SE4G that allows you too by-pass Phased sheilds aswell). Couldn't this solution work?

Shang, will you still please consider the "Inner/Outer" hull concept? You don't have too work on it now, but perhaps later after Beta Testing is underway or after Beta Testing is over. I would really like this Mod too have some ability too make unique Classes of ships like in SF.

[Phoenix-D]

If any shields on a ship are un-phased, they ALL end up non phased.

[Dan Kochheiser]

Originally posted by Magnum357:
Ok, if Shang does want too add Feild Interdiction rules, how about this proposal.

How about making SF Sheilds "Phased Sheilds" and make the Ion Engine sheilds "Normal sheilds" in SE4G? Instead of worrying about making Missiles 1/4 damage values, just make "Phased Sheilds" (SF sheilds) worth 1 hit value and make the Interdiction Feild (Normal sheilds) worth 5X value. At the mean time, have all beam weapons use the "Sheild skipping ability" too by-pass the Ion Engines sheild effects so that they are not effected. This would unfortunetly make Lasers loose their SF's "Sheild by-pass" effect (because they wouldn't by-pass the Phased sheilds) but this solution would be close (unless their is an ability in SE4G that allows you too by-pass Phased sheilds aswell). Couldn't this solution work?

Shang, will you still please consider the "Inner/Outer" hull concept? You don't have too work on it now, but perhaps later after Beta Testing is underway or after Beta Testing is over. I would really like this Mod too have some ability too make unique Classes of ships like in SF. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Magnum357 we went a different route with the effect, and I think it will do better at modeling it than your suggestion. But thanks for the input. The way we are doing things should allow us to keep the shield skipping effects of lasers.

Dan K

[ February 06, 2004, 03:55: Message edited by: Dan Kochheiser ]

[Fyron]

unless their is an ability in SE4G that allows you too by-pass Phased sheilds aswell <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yep. "Skips Normal Shields" skips non-phased shields. "Skips All Shields" skips all shields, regardless of phasing.

But, as P-D said, 1 point of non-phased shields will make the entire shield layer non-phased.

[Growltigger]

Great, I knew that there was something in the rules about non-shield damage only incurring the non-interdiction field penalty.

This brings back memories.

Oh, I remember what it was, I used to play SF against one of those people who never enter into the spirit of the game, but play the game to a point of principle tighter than a gnat's chuffer in accordance with the rules. For me, the majesty of Starfire was designing your own ships, naming them, building and empire and then the excitement of interstellar wars, where the other side never knew what you were doing! With a good space marshall (and ours was good), the nervousness of what ever warp tranit would bring was just delightful.

I would get excited when one of my Agamemnon class cruisers defeated one of his Kalbacun class cruisers, I would be happy as a ferret if he defeated me in a battle. I could picture the firestorm raging between battlelines, the myriad explosions in the dark of space etc etc etc

He, on the other hand, liked to quote rules, he just wanted to win. I never knew about the interdiction field until he quoted it at me the little sod. So hey ho, the next thing I am facing are missiles which home on to your engines and blow them up.

The next thing this little turd pulls out of the tech tree (and I still dont know where it came from) was some damn missile that causes your shields to collapse so, not only are your capital ships sitting ducks with no engines, but they have no shields, and hey ho, any nuke is going to waste them!!??!

Still, I managed to beat the little swine at the Battle of Deneb.

Back to reality, glad this got sorted. Wubbles, I think you just get on with the beta. There is going to be quite a lot coming out of the testing that will mean to you need to tweak it. Stick to canon as much as you can, and if you cant, so be it.

[President_Elect_Shang]

Originally posted by Dan Kochheiser:
And Wubbles, Uncle says "One more thing..."
I realized that Tug designs will have a very interesting new capability. Dan K <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Crap, I didn't think about that, could pose a small problem in terms of an unfair advantage against the AI, but who amongst us needs an unfair advantage against it anyway?

[President_Elect_Shang]

Originally posted by Magnum357:
Shang, will you still please consider the "Inner/Outer" hull concept? You don't have too work on it now, but perhaps later after Beta Testing is underway or after Beta Testing is over. I would really like this Mod too have some ability too make unique Classes of ships like in SF. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sure we can work on it but how would propose getting around the damage factor?

[President_Elect_Shang]

"Still, I managed to beat the little swine at the Battle of Deneb."

I just did a quick cut and paste rather than a quote, I am glad you did beat him, sounds to me that the “swine” was using a mix of AD tech with his standerd tech.

Memories…

The Tal-Re Republic was the leader of the Star Alliance. Don’t get me wrong we had a very low Racial Militancy but once you hit us we never gave up, and we were advanced. I remember how I brought my exploration ship up to the unexplored WP and made the jump. Nerves pounding as they always do, entering the unknown. We found “them” on the other side; my peaceful ways caused me to sit still as he brought his weapons on-line faking communication attempts with me. That started the war, and this war would end up crushing two of the four Star Alliance members. Just me and my soon-to-be partner who could only be accessed by a single WP in my home system; he did loose his few colonies and the Tal-Re Republic was on the brink of collapse. In the end it was something like what happened with the Arachnids, he (I think his name was Tom) was so convinced of impending victory that he stretched his lines to long and thin. The battle of ? (can’t remember name now) broke his battle line and (by coincidence) at the same time my partner finally agreed to commit his few remaining reserves. The outdated reserves with new construction from my yards and his allowed us to gain the initiative. AND WE HELD IT!

[Dan Kochheiser]

Originally posted by President Elect Shang:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Dan Kochheiser:
And Wubbles, Uncle says "One more thing..."
I realized that Tug designs will have a very interesting new capability. Dan K <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Crap, I didn't think about that, could pose a small problem in terms of an unfair advantage against the AI, but who amongst us needs an unfair advantage against it anyway? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thinking about further, the tug advantage comes at cost that is greater than just buying shields directly. Economically, it's not a feasable choice. But in certain situations, I can see it being used for gaining a slight advantage. So I don't think it would get abused to terribly. And the AI shuldn't suffer from the lack of this 'knowledge'.

Dan K

[President_Elect_Shang]

Now that I really think about it I am not sure that tugs will work the way they should, there is actually no option or use for tugs in the SE4G setting that I am aware of. Maybe one of the more experienced players could shed some light on this.

[Fyron]

What do you want a "tug" to do? Is it related to a tugboat that moves large ships through a harbor?

[Dan Kochheiser]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
What do you want a "tug" to do? Is it related to a tugboat that moves large ships through a harbor? <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Basically, yes. In Starfire, tractors are used to 'grappel' two ships together. This chain of ships adds their hull spaces together and look at the class size one less than this. Then all units total thier engines and divide by the engine power for the figured hull and this gets your speed. Tugs would normally cary extra engines above those of useful for attaining max speed in one large room called the tug engine room. Tugs extra engines give them the ability to attain higher speeds during towing than thier small sizes would normally indicate.

[Magnum357]

Yes, I'm curious about this aswell. I am not aware of "Tugs" in Starfire. I only have mostly 3rdE rules, was this a new rule added later? Or are these ships equiped with Tractor Beams?

[Fyron]

Originally posted by Dan Kochheiser:
Basically, yes. In Starfire, tractors are used to 'grappel' two ships together. This chain of ships adds their hull spaces together and look at the class size one less than this. Then all units total thier engines and divide by the engine power for the figured hull and this gets your speed. Tugs would normally cary extra engines above those of useful for attaining max speed in one large room called the tug engine room. Tugs extra engines give them the ability to attain higher speeds during towing than thier small sizes would normally indicate. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">There is really no way to implement this in SE4. You can not move another ship with a tug ship or anything. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[Dan Kochheiser]

Originally posted by Magnum357:
Yes, I'm curious about this aswell. I am not aware of "Tugs" in Starfire. I only have mostly 3rdE rules, was this a new rule added later? Or are these ships equiped with Tractor Beams? <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes tugs use tractor beams. It's a common term but not expressly used in the rules. And the rules descrition I gave before is from the UTM 1.1.

To be 'up to date' in 3rd Ed Rules you need the UTM, 3rdR rulebook, ISF rulebook and SM#2. The 3rdR URM (Unified Rules Manual) is undergoing construction, refinement and review at this moment.The URM is going to consolidate and update all the rules into one book. Hopefully we will get it out here in the next month or two. All of these things can be gotten from the SDS website.

Dan K

[President_Elect_Shang]

Will the UTR include the rules from ISF? My ISF is copyrighted 1993 with credits going to David [Weber] himself! Needless to say it is an old and cherished “Artifact” in my collection; I even have a 2nd Edition (?) SF rule book with the same copy right info, I bought them both on the same day. Point is I need a replacement for the ISF book.

[Magnum357]

Where is this "SDS" website? Can this new material be purchases Online? I have been out of the "Starfire" gaming loop for a loooooonnnng time now (since 96-97) and would like too know.

[President_Elect_Shang]

Check out the new thread Magnum.

"OT - Too Cool"

Follow the links that appear after the intro.

[Dawn Falcon]

Heya.

Looks like the project's doing fairly well.

[clc19k30]

Sorry been occupied elsewhere. Black holes are a @#$ch to escape!!!!

[President_Elect_Shang]

So after a long week of busting my butt at school and home with the kids I finally get some down time. It goes without saying that I have spent that time to work on the Mod, so here is the status:

Component Enhancement File: 100%
Component File: 100% (One known issue, waiting on Dan K)
Tech Area File: 100%
Vehicle Size File: 100%
Facility File: 100%

Culture File: On Hold
Intelligence File: On Hold
All AI Files: On Hold

Edited In: Status Update as of 8-Feb-04.

That leaves Culture File and Facilities File, I will work on the facilities file next and maybe work on the culture file, but for that I will most likely have to task out for help (Dan K and Mr Floppy), the point is that it is no big deal to me for the beta testing. If I did not mention a file it is because I did not feel it needed any work right now. Speaking of Beta Testing here is the list of people that have contacted me, if your name is not on the list and you feel it should be than send me a private message or email me.

Dan K
Mike (Not a Forum Member)
Mr Floppy (should the “r” in mister be caps, do you have a preference?)
CLC

Taxes are done, more school reading and one assignment, I think Friday the 13th will be a good release day; anyhow I was never one for superstition (where the heck did I put that salt?).

[ February 09, 2004, 02:00: Message edited by: President Elect Shang ]

[President_Elect_Shang]

Wow, what a feeling it was to actually see this Mod start. There was the inevitable flaw or two that had to be corrected but it was truly great. It is actually ready for beta testing now, but I will hold on to it until the 13th anyway. This will give me a chance to knock out some of the bigger bugs. One that I found is in the Ic. I can not figure out a way to make the Ic work and keep the I. In light of this I will have to drop the Ic out. Sorry to say it, however I knew when I started this project that there was bound to be flaws that would require some give and take. Suggestions?

[Magnum357]

Hey Shang, could you tell us what specifically makes using the Ic impossible too do in the mod? Is it because the AI can't understand why too put it on Civilian ships compared too Military?

[President_Elect_Shang]

The (I) generates full power in combat but only about half system cruising speed, relative to its combat speed that is. The (Ic) generates a higher system cruising speed but provides no combat movement bonus. The problem I am having is in keeping the (Ic) from using the (I)’s combat bonus. If I put the combat bonus on the (I) than the larger ships do not get the correct combat movement so I have had to put it on the hull.

[Dan Kochheiser]

Originally posted by President Elect Shang:
Will the UTR include the rules from ISF? My ISF is copyrighted 1993 with credits going to David [Weber] himself! Needless to say it is an old and cherished “Artifact” in my collection; I even have a 2nd Edition (?) SF rule book with the same copy right info, I bought them both on the same day. Point is I need a replacement for the ISF book. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes. All the rules in one book.

Dan K

[Dan Kochheiser]

Originally posted by Magnum357:
Where is this "SDS" website? Can this new material be purchases Online? I have been out of the "Starfire" gaming loop for a loooooonnnng time now (since 96-97) and would like too know. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">www.starfiredesign.com (http://www.starfiredesign.com) is thew SDS website mainpage. You can order from there and learn how to get on the mailing list and get errata. As well as links to SA program and such.

Dan K

[President_Elect_Shang]

Clc came over this morning to take a look at the Mod. In the process of checking it out we discovered a new bug. It seems that you can only have “x” amount of “items” attached to one tech area. Through the process of elimination I found that I could tie all component enhancements, vehicles, and facilities into having a “HTL” requirement for their development. But if I tried to tie any components (even one) into the “HTL” line it would not work. This apparently would not be a problem if you wanted to start out at HTL 1 and work your way up; in this case you can develop HTL2 etc just fine. But if you want to start at the “medium” or “high” technology at the start up screen than forget it, you start with HTL at level one instead of 18. I have contacted Malfador about this issue to see what Aaron has to say. I will keep you updated as I get word.

“Items” are anything from components to vehicles.

[President_Elect_Shang]

I could have deleted the below message but I do not like to hold back any info, I got it working and everything is back on track. It turns out that the colony component can not be tied into the HTL tech area line, once I dropped that out and made it a stand alone all started working again. I am having two new problems that I would like to shot down before the Beta goes out.

1) Sometimes the computer starts me on an “other-than-oxygen” world; I do not want that to happen.

2) No matter how I toy with the “combat movement” setting I can not seem to break speed 7.

[Fyron]

1) Sometimes the computer starts me on an “other-than-oxygen” world; I do not want that to happen.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Are there moons orbiting those starting planets? Sometimes SE4 will select an available moon as the HW. But if it does this, the HW gets transfered to the "planet" in that sector instead, but the planet does not get changed to the appropriate atmosphere and planet type. So, if you have medium moons and select an average planet start, it is possible that SE4 will select that medium moon as the HW and instead use the planet it is orbiting. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif The way to fix this is to make it so that systems with medium, small and large moons can not be used as starting systems. Or, if you have, for example, small moons everywhere, just make it clear that you should not take bad planet starts, as you will hit this bug. Such as in FQM.

2) No matter how I toy with the “combat movement” setting I can not seem to break speed 7. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This one is really hard to help without seeing the data files.

Colony techs are selected in a special process that ignores start and raise levels. SE4 finds either the first or Last component that has the colony ability in the components file that matches your HW type and that also can be available based on racial areas of the tech reqs, and then assigns its tech reqs to you. You do not get any other levels of those tech reqs to start with.

[ February 09, 2004, 18:43: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[President_Elect_Shang]

Thank you Fyron for the answer to question #1, it does not happen often enough and I tried to reproduce it but could not, I am sure that this is what is taken place.

About #2, they are working just fine, it turns out that when modding you should always make sure you have enough sleep and that you press the save button before testing the change. Also make sure that you have enough sleep.

I will be back later tonight with the update on the Mod status, heck forget that, DanK sent me the info I needed and all major bugs that would prevent the testing of the Beta are done and gone.

We have all green lights; let the countdown begin…“T minus 4”.

[Fyron]

About #2, they are working just fine, it turns out that when modding you should always make sure you have enough sleep and that you press the save button before testing the change. Also make sure that you have enough sleep.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">LOL you have no idea how many times I have done that! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[President_Elect_Shang]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana"> About #2, they are working just fine, it turns out that when modding you should always make sure you have enough sleep and that you press the save button before testing the change. Also make sure that you have enough sleep.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">LOL you have no idea how many times I have done that! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I forgot to mention: DO NOT have an Uber-Colada before Modding! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[President_Elect_Shang]

All is still a green to go for the 13th. Growltigger had helped me to resolve the PDC issue but I had forgotten to Mod them in, that was a quick fix and they are now there. I could not think of a way to create the PDC hostile\desolate and extreme so I left them out. Also there may be an issue with the PDC’s themselves, but we can resolve that when the beta is tested. I am sure there will be other issues that will need to be addressed but then it is a beta. Make sure that you are patched with the “se4goldpatch3.exe”, you can get it at the below link, just click on "patch download".

http://www.malfador.com/se4.html

T minus 3 and counting.

[ February 10, 2004, 14:09: Message edited by: President Elect Shang ]

[Growltigger]

Errr what is an uber colada? I assume it is like a turbo shandy which it basically the liquid equivalent of being whacked round the head with a half brick wrapped in a sock

[DemoMonkey]

Step 1) Mix a Pina Colada.
Step 2) Pour it into a clean pLastic 4 gallon pail.
Step 3) Repeat steps 1 and 2 until the pail is full.
Step 4) Drink the pail.
Step 5) Mod.
Step 6) Profit!

[President_Elect_Shang]

Originally posted by DemoMonkey:
Step 1) Mix a Pina Colada.
Step 2) Pour it into a clean pLastic 4 gallon pail.
Step 3) Repeat steps 1 and 2 until the pail is full.
Step 4) Drink the pail.
Step 5) Mod.
Step 6) Profit! <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Heavy on step 5, works better than calgone...Take me awayyyyyyyyyy

[President_Elect_Shang]

So far so good, I have run into one or two small issues dealing with components but so far all that called for was changing a number to the correct value. There is an issue with play balance and the shipyards, but again this is something that I feel should be addressed by all of us.

On another note I have decided to go to Home Depot and buy one of those 10 galleon orange buckets. With it I will try to make a Mega Uber-Colada. Why do I feel like a power ranger?

Missile damage will need to be looked at for balance.

[ February 11, 2004, 03:55: Message edited by: President Elect Shang ]

[Growltigger]

Mr Wubbles, sounds positive.

I have re-read a bit more of my starfire rulebook (do you know, I managed to find my first edition rulebook!! I wonder if that is worth anything on Ebay!).

Questions as follows:

1) have you managed to duplicate shear planes? although I beleive the effect of tractor beams in SEIVG is of less than in Stafire cannon;

2) what have you done on overload dampeners?

3) how on earth have you dealt with XO racks?

4) what are force beams, and what are energy beams?

[President_Elect_Shang]

1) Unfortunately there is no way to duplicate shear planes in SE4G, and since the tractor effect in SE4G is instantaneous a shear plane would not actually work.

2) Overload dampeners: I am pleased to report are in the Mod, I think that once you see it you will understand why I moded it the way I did. In other words it does not follow the “cannon” effect perfectly, however this is one of the components that I managed to capture the “spirit” of, and very well at that.

3) XO Racks: Even if this Mod comes out of the Beta stage DOA I think my solution to the XO rack is a legacy that will live on. I don’t want to say too much about it here as I am still looking forward to the surprise factor.

4) Force beams and Energy Beams: I wanted to keep some of the SE4 flavor so that those uninitiated to StarFire would find a connection back to SE4G un-moded (other than the graphics and interface) and not feel to “alienated”. I have split most all beams up into two categories, energy stream weapons and energy pulse weapons. For a little preview of the Mod here is an excerpt from the Tech Area text:

Energy Stream Weapons: The most powerful energy weapon family, but must smash shields and armor first.

Energy Pulse Weapons: A weak family of energy weapons that can skip shields, armor, or both.

I am sure this does not fully answer your questions; however you only have two days to wait now. I will be back later to give an update as to the status. I am still toying with the missile and interdiction field as they are not operating very well, more later have to run now…

[Growltigger]

Ooooh, you is a smug person aren't you Mr Wubbles - look forward to seeing if the Beta is as grand as you are promising - expectations are running rather high!

[President_Elect_Shang]

The problem I ran into is when I brought two missile armed corvettes together to fight; the regenerative ability of the interdiction effect prevented either one from damaging the other. I have a possible solution but I will accept suggestions.

Keep those expectations up as I have a fairly good “hunch” that you will not be disappointed. Also keep in mind that this is a Beta Version, look for problems no matter how pleased you are.

[Growltigger]

Nah, I am just going to run off with the beta, play to it my enjoyment, make sarcastic remarks and bare my broad buttocks at the lot of you.

I am certainly not going to help.

Hmmm, not sure what to suggest about the interdiction field regenerating. My immediate thought was to turn off the regeneration ability, but then that wont work if other weapons can knock down the shields attributed to the engines.

Let me have a think.

As to the sheer plane, not bothered that you havn't included it, as I dont think I ever designed a starfire ship that had it....

Brilliant

[President_Elect_Shang]

I have just had my first major fleet action, both sides involved were HTL1 and I must say that I was rather pleased. How many of you have tried to role play against yourself and with no less than 5 empires? It is the craziest thing I have ever done, I have role played in the past (D&D, etc) but this is something else. The new solution I implemented for the interdiction effect seems to be working good enough. I have unfortunately run across a new problem that I think will have to be accepted as a “necessary evil”. Even after all of the engines where blown out on one of the destroyers it still had combat movement. This is because I moded the combat movement onto the hull as it would not have worked on the engine. Comments, questions or concerns?

Yummy, buttocks!

[Dan Kochheiser]

Originally posted by President Elect Shang:
I have just had my first major fleet action, both sides involved were HTL1 and I must say that I was rather pleased. How many of you have tried to role play against yourself and with no less than 5 empires? It is the craziest thing I have ever done, I have role played in the past (D&D, etc) but this is something else. The new solution I implemented for the interdiction effect seems to be working good enough. I have unfortunately run across a new problem that I think will have to be accepted as a “necessary evil”. Even after all of the engines where blown out on one of the destroyers it still had combat movement. This is because I moded the combat movement onto the hull as it would not have worked on the engine. Comments, questions or concerns?

Yummy, buttocks! <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Is there a way to use the hull engine power to be divided/multiplied into the engines used? In this way, as engines are lost, speed would reduce.

Dan K

[President_Elect_Shang]

Actually Dan it is doing that now, unfortunately there is a limitation to this effect. Namely that it does not apply to any “abilities”. To give the ships their extra speed in combat but keep there cruising speed down I had to add in the “combat movement” “ability”. As the engines are lost the ships are loosing speed, but this is only to the extent of the natural speed (the non “ability” speed) provided by the engines. Let me give you an example (not from the mod).

You have a ship with 6 engines and the hull of this ship has the ability “combat speed” set at 2. Out of combat the ship will move at speed 6 (assuming 1 engine per movement point). In combat it will move at speed 5. Formula:

Out of combat: 6 engines at 1 point each = 6 movement points.
In combat: 6 engines at 1 point each = 6/2 (all non-combat movement is halved) = 3 + 2 combat movement = 5.

So when all engines are destroyed if the combat movement is added to the engines the ship stops. If however, as is the case here, if the combat movement is added to the hulls the ships keep moving but at a reduced speed as it is no longer getting the first portion of the In Combat formula:

As above:
In combat: 0 engines (all destroyed) at 1 point each = 0/2 = 0 + 2 combat movement =2

Did I just confuse you? The upside to this is that a ship with one or more working engines can out run a ship with no engines even though the ship without engines can still move, and once combat is done the ship is “dead in the waters”, you will not be flying it home for repairs. The downside to this is that you still can move and thus ramming takes on a new light. I could reduce or even eliminate ramming damage to offset this, if I do reduce/eliminate the Sr will still work as it does damage on top of any caused by the ramming attack.

[Fyron]

You could build the combat movement bonus into the engines. It would not be reduced until all engines are out, but it would prevent ships from being able to move once their engines are down. Of course this leads to the problem that it can not be tied to ship size. So, you can add a special engine with nominal strategic move and the combat movement bonus, and make it really big. Then use scale mounts for each hull size to get it to be the appropriate size for each hull. It would take up a bit more space on each larger hull, thus simulating a reduced effectiveness on larger, more massive hulls.

[President_Elect_Shang]

I could overcome this by making multi-class engines. For example:

A class 1 engine would only work on the EX and ES
A class 2 would only work on the FG and DS

Something along those lines, I would have to pull out the UTM 1.1 to see how it would actually divide up; but you can get the jest of the idea from the above. Should we take a vote?

A) Play test Beta as engines are now, knowing the below problem.
B) Create (for lack of a better term) “Multi-Classed Engines” and Beta test them.

I will not be voting on this one, I can do either before Friday, heck one is already done!

I posted this after Fyron, but it is basically the same principal that he is talking about.

Edited in:
There is no such setting as a negative “combat movement” bonus. If we go with option B above than we will have to accept that freighters can move at the speed of warships in combat or I can reintroduce the commercial engine, however we will NOT need multi-class Versions of it. No one said this would be easy or perfect. Thus I will introduce part 2 of the vote.

If you choose B above than do you want to:

1) Accept warship speed on freighters in combat.
2) Re-introduce the Commercial engine (Ic).

[ February 11, 2004, 20:31: Message edited by: President Elect Shang ]

[clc19k30]

Actually thinking about the engines being blown and the continued movement caused me to regress to high school physics. No friction in space, ergo no slowing down. So the engine problem is not a real concern. Not blowing the crap out of the other guy is. Must fix so death can be dealt. I say go with what we have and fix problems as they occur. Hey that is why it is a Beta Test.

[President_Elect_Shang]

Originally posted by clc19k30:
Actually thinking about the engines being blown and the continued movement caused me to regress to high school physics. No friction in space, ergo no slowing down. So the engine problem is not a real concern. Not blowing the crap out of the other guy is. Must fix so death can be dealt. I say go with what we have and fix problems as they occur. Hey that is why it is a Beta Test. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Clc you raise a very good point, however in StarFire (cannon) a ship only moves because of the inertial field generated by its engines. So when a ship losses its engines (once again by cannon) it comes to a sudden and often violently damaging halt. Dan K will be able to explain it much better than me, he should drop in tomorrow. Dan can you fill us with a little high quality explanation please?

Also clc as to your point of “going with what we have got” that is true, except when all of you beta testers where at work today I was here creating an alternate Mod using the B2 selection below. It came out to 7 Versions of the Military engine and 1 Version of the commercial engine. As a fact I am play testing the alternate B2 Version right now and I must say that I am very happy with it. So it is up to you beta testers which you would like to try out.

[Fyron]

Originally posted by clc19k30:
Actually thinking about the engines being blown and the continued movement caused me to regress to high school physics. No friction in space, ergo no slowing down. So the engine problem is not a real concern. Not blowing the crap out of the other guy is. Must fix so death can be dealt. I say go with what we have and fix problems as they occur. Hey that is why it is a Beta Test. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Unfortunately this is impossible to model in SE4. The ships would still be able to turn and decrease their velocity with no engines, which is physically impossible (without some sort of tractoring from other ships of course).

[Dan Kochheiser]

Wubbles: as for the engines, I can hang with option B and add in Ic. It be closer to cannon.

clc: The Starfire physics of the engines is basically this: They create a field that spreads the inertia of the ship over the surface of this feild. This inertia is so spread out that it becomes nearly meaningless as it is spread over many miles. When the drive field 'collapses' the inertia of the object is immediately imparted back to the ship in an instant.

Dan K

[President_Elect_Shang]

Ok now that all of you have patched to the latest Version of SE4G it is time to patch some more, with the Image Mod! Just follow the below link and there you will see a list of sites to download at, I suggest selecting the link to “Imperator Fyron’s Mirror #2”. It is almost always reported as being “offline” but do not let this fool you. Once you click on it you will want to download, unzip, and copy and paste into your *root* SE4G directory the following files:

Facilitiespack11 ====== Full
Planetpack9 =========== Full
Eventpack2 ============ Full
Componentpack22 ======= Full
Combatpack10 ========== Full

You could get the patch only file and save some download time, but I would play it safe. Finally I can send you the Mod in one of two forms: zip or rar, just IM or PM me with your choice, once contacted I will start the final list and add your name with your preference, if your name is not on the list you can still add yourself but it may not be in time to meet the Friday release.

http://www.geocities.com/hohoho611ca/imagepack.html

*Root* Unless you changed it at installation your root SE4G directory should be:

C:\Program Files\Shrapnel Games\Malfador Machinations\Space Empires IV Gold\Pictures\???

Where ??? indicates the corresponding folder, answer “yes to all” when asked if you want to over right, copy over, oh you will know what I mean when you see it.

So I have 1 vote for B2…

All green still counting… T minus 2

If I have not said it enough let me say it again, thanks to all of you for your work, input, and patience; especially you Floppy and Dan K too.

[Fyron]

Once you click on it you will want to download, unzip, and copy and paste into your *root* SE4G directory the following files: <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I strongly suggest that you do not unzip those to the pictures directory! They have no inherent folder structure, so you will get 1000s of images in the pictures directory. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif Instead, download them to there. Then, unzip each pack into the approriate folder, which is the same name as the pack. So ComponentPack22 gets extracted into the Components folder, for example. Create no new folders!

[Magnum357]

But Fyron, what if you still want too keep an unmodded SE4G on your system? I plan too have unmodded and the Starfire Mod both on my system and interchange from each one if I wish by changing the .exe path.

Hey Shang, I vote for Plan A because you have already started it that way, and I don't mind ships still having some combat movement speed (I would consider it as auilary Feild Generators kicking in too componsate for the main ones being destroyed) which would allow you some limited movement abilities for a short while (at least for a few hours for combat purposes). I was thinking about voting for Plan B, but with all those engines for each hull size, that might be difficult too code into the AI files effectively.

[Fyron]

My post was only about installing the Image Mod, not SF mod. Shang was directing you to install the images into the stock folders already, but he assumed that they would have a path info built in and get extracted to the appropriate folders automatically, which is not the case.

The Image Mod (not really a mod) does not replace any stock images. It just adds (tons) of new ones. You will still be able to play unmodded SE4 just fine, even in multiplayer, with the Image Mod installed, and there will be no difference what so ever. The point of placing the Image Mod into the stock picture folders is so that you do not have to have more than one copy of the images if you use two or more mods that use the Image Mod (most mods use it these days).

[ February 12, 2004, 07:06: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[President_Elect_Shang]

Actually Fyron I was not saying to download and unzip into the root directory, thus I said to “download, unzip, and copy and paste INTO your root directory” notice the commas. Why would I ask someone to copy and paste something from a directory back to itself? Then below that I go on to explain the path and that ??? indicates the corresponding directory, what I did not say and what does not need said was that you would want to put the combat pack into the combat folder etc.

Magnum: Do not worry about adding this [the Image Mod] into your base SE4G game, it does not change any of the play factors; it only adds more pictures that other mods may call for. Otherwise you could get a nasty little error message. So in essence your SE4G game will still be unmoded. Does this mean you have had a change of heart and want to beta test? I thought that you were busy… it isn’t too late I just need your file preference [*.zip or *.rar]. *raspy voice* “Magnum…You are my son…Join me.”

Wasn’t that how it goes, it has been a long time since I watched it. So moving on, do not worry about the AI aspect although I am glad that someone brought it up. The AI will always check for mounts as that is hard coded into the game, they should not have a problem using the engines.

Edit In:
Two more things:
1) The *.zip file is looking about 1.19 MB in size, the *.rar file is about1.02 MB.

2) Magnum: considering the work you have volunteered to do for this mod I think that more than entitles you to a copy of the Beta without feeling the need to actually “test” it, but I would still need your file preference.

[ February 12, 2004, 13:10: Message edited by: President Elect Shang ]

[President_Elect_Shang]

Beta Testers who have checked in:

Dan K = File format “StarFireMod.rar”

[Magnum357]

Hey Shang, I'm honored that you would really like me too be a part of the Beta test crew. But again, I must decline because I'm putting my full concentration the ship sets (which is fairly time consuming) and I have other projects that I need too take care of too.

I still vote for option A on this, but option B is not bad etheir. I'm glad that you can code in the AI too understand option B.

[President_Elect_Shang]

Here we are; I must admit that I am somewhat nervous. I should also admit that I am prepared for the worst, that this Mod sucks and should be shot and dragged around the forum to be laughed at. Ok, all of my concerns aside here it goes, as they say Last call for alcohol:

Dan K = StarFireMod.rar
Clc = ???
GrowlTigger = ???
Mike (not Forum) = StarFireMod.rar

T minus 1

[ February 13, 2004, 02:53: Message edited by: President Elect Shang ]

[President_Elect_Shang]

I am off to bed but I just wanted to post that I tested the XO weapon tonight in combat and… HA-HA-HA I love this thing!

[Growltigger]

Hmmm, Wubbles, I think you are bordering dangerously on the realms of self-abuse

[President_Elect_Shang]

BLAST OFF! Beta testers enjoy! Mr Floppy read your message.

Read the new one.

[ February 13, 2004, 15:48: Message edited by: President Elect Shang ]

[Dawn Falcon]

If you sent it to me by email earlier today, probly have to resent. I lost about 10 emails to a bug.

[President_Elect_Shang]

Dawn Falcon I shot you a message.

[President_Elect_Shang]

I just wanted to bump my own thread and take a moment to put out some info. The beta testing is going well and we have advanced some ideas (thanks Dawn Falcon) that should bring the game closer to cannon and at the same time increase the fun of playing.

Thanks again to everyone who is pitching in and of course to any who are on the sidelines cheering us (Dan K and myself) along to a successful completion and launch of the non-AI Version. Terrain C and Magnum how are you two doing?

[Dieter]

Fellow members (and others) of the Starfire Mod for SE4G ...

Let me introduce myself ... my name is Dieter and I am (unfortunately) a bit of a late-comer to this little group of "testers" ... personal issues (including work) have prevented me from joining this Forum until now ... hopefully I have not missed too much ...

I'm an old-timer to Starfire, still owning the original "pocket" Versions of the game (and all the revisions/expansions since then) -- but I am rather unfamilar with the SE4G gaming system, something I hope to remedy in the near future ... in preparation for this little venture, I down-loaded the "demo" Version of SE4G a couple of weeks ago and then played a half a dozen "scenarios" or so (not sure what to call a 100-turn max game) ... then recently acquired a full blown Version which has been loaded, but not yet cristened (sp?) ...

I do have a couple of quick questions, to make sure we (especially me) are all on the same page ...

I realize this is an attempt to make SE4G look/feel like Starfire ... at least within the limitations presented by SE4G ...
And from scanning the current 10+ pages of Posts for this Formum, I gather that we are using the 3rdR Version of Starfire, as modified by the UTM ...

Question #1 ... how far are we going to attempt to take the testing ??? (i.e. to what tech level)
Question #2 ... are there at this time any items that are going to be excluded from the testing (i.e. because they are impossible to emulate )

I hope to get all the "mod" patches installed by this weekend and be able to start posting valid remarks soon there after ... in the mean time, it sounds (from the current Posts) that things are coming along nicely ...

(appologies for the rather lenghty post)

-Dieter

[President_Elect_Shang]

Welcome aboard Dieter and I am glad that you have made it. Let me start by saying there is a vote out for the Beta testers (all the details are in the ballot) and I will send it to you as soon as I get this post up. Just answer the best you can on the parts you are able to. Now for your questions:

1) The Mod is set up to take us to HTL18, please note that due to the limitations of SE4G the levels of Pre-IND and IND1 have been eliminated. The IND2 tech level has been combined into HTL1. I have converted over as much of the systems from the UTM 1.1 that I could.

2) Yes, unfortunately not all items could be converted and it would be easier for me to send you the Mod when you are patched up than to list them here. Included in the Mod is a “For information Only” text that lists all of the systems that have been included.

Once again welcome on board and I am happy to see you. If you need any help just reply to the email address in the letter I am about to send you. And remember the point of the Mod is to catch the flavor, not be a perfect mimic.

[Dan Kochheiser]

Welcome aboard Dieter!

I have been around Starfire for that long too!

What's your name on the SF list? I think You'll recognize mine if you have been around it for ANY length of time...<BG>

I also am checking out SEIV for the first time. So don't think you can't add much. Apparently my lack of knowledge lets me think in diferent directions.

Dan K

[President_Elect_Shang]

Originally posted by Dan Kochheiser:
Welcome aboard Dieter!

I have been around Starfire for that long too!

What's your name on the SF list? I think You'll recognize mine if you have been around it for ANY length of time...<BG>

I also am checking out SEIV for the first time. So don't think you can't add much. Apparently my lack of knowledge lets me think in diferent directions.

Dan K <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">LOL... I would not put it that way.

[Dan Kochheiser]

Hey Wubbles,
There are some that say that I lack enough common sense to to think normally...let alone abnormally! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Dan K

[Dieter]

Hiya Dan ...
Yes ... I have been around the SF list almost from the beginning, and yes I do recognize your name ... you are one of the more "prolific" members on the list (that's a good thing by the way) ... on the list, I use my Yahoo Id which is drohfleisch ... and unfortunately, I have not been very active there either -- again due mainly to work ... mostly I've been limited to just reviewing what goes on ...

And I would agree with our leader of this here little group ... from my scanning of the forum so far, your contribution has so far has been significant ... hopefully, I will soon be able to follow in your foot-steps ... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

-Dieter
Originally posted by Dan Kochheiser:
Welcome aboard Dieter!

I have been around Starfire for that long too!

What's your name on the SF list? I think You'll recognize mine if you have been around it for ANY length of time...<BG>

I also am checking out SEIV for the first time. So don't think you can't add much. Apparently my lack of knowledge lets me think in diferent directions.

Dan K <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

[ February 20, 2004, 01:33: Message edited by: Dieter ]

[President_Elect_Shang]

I wouldn’t call myself the leader, which would imply sole control. Dan K is my co-author; did you get the ballot in the email? I have not received it back yet. I will send out a reminder to those who have not replied.

[Dan Kochheiser]

Originally posted by Dieter:
Hiya Dan ...
Yes ... I have been around the SF list almost from the beginning, and yes I do recognize your name ... you are one of the more "prolific" members on the list (that's a good thing by the way) ... on the list, I use my Yahoo Id which is drohfleisch ... and unfortunately, I have not been very active there either -- again due mainly to work ... mostly I've been limited to just reviewing what goes on ...

And I would agree with our leader of this here little group ... from my scanning of the forum so far, your contribution has so far has been significant ... hopefully, I will soon be able to follow in your foot-steps ... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

-Dieter
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You are who I thought you were. And thanks for the 'kind' words.

And Wubbles, you started this! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif That makes you the closest thing to a leader we have!
Enjoy!
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Dan K

[President_Elect_Shang]

Yes this project is still alive; I am almost finished with and about to release Beta Build 2. Unfortunately there are far too many changes to mention here, I just wanted to bump the thread and let anyone who is interested know what the status is.

[DemoMonkey]

Are you having any compatability problems with V1.91?

[President_Elect_Shang]

None, and I am happy to say that Build 2 is ready to roll out for testing. I am just waiting on one final suggestion to be reviewed.

[Dieter]

For the "newbies" (that's me, myself, and I) can you either send or post detailed instructions on what needs to be done to implement the new Build when it is available ... I'm no computer slouch, but I still need instuctions for my first attempt ...

(yes ... I am going against my "macho" tendencies and "asking for directions" ... my wife will NEVER believe it)

-Dieter
Originally posted by President Elect Shang:
None, and I am happy to say that Build 2 is ready to roll out for testing. I am just waiting on one final suggestion to be reviewed. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

[President_Elect_Shang]

So first of all let me announce the launch of my first website. It is dedicated to my family and to the games StarFire and SE4G as well as my Mod. Take a few moments to browse it and give me some feedback. If I may say so myself it is not bad for a person that as of two days ago could not tell you what a parent or child page was. In that short of a time I went from knowing nothing to getting my first site up and running. As time goes by I may add some more to it but for now I think that I am done.

I have included a page for the status of the StarFire Mod but to give the Beta testers a little more info here is what is happening. All of the major revisions are done; the hold up for the release of Build 2 is that with the changes implemented for point defense weapons I decided to have a second look into the missile type weapons. From there I have brought them much closer to cannon. So now the new missile weapons need to be added in. You will also notice that before you were getting some of the special warhead types free of charge, forget it! With Beta Build 2 you will have to research and add them onto the new launchers and PAY for them! As a Last note to avoid some of the confusion that happened Last time, when I released Build 1, you will need to download the Beta Build 2 from my site. I will still send out patches for the build over email, this is only because like Last time, I will not bother to accumulate several fixes before I put out a patch. Unless it is a minor fix I will make every effort to keep all of you up to date.

And don't worry Dieter, I will make this as easy as pie! Sorry it took me so long to reply. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ March 10, 2004, 02:51: Message edited by: President Elect Shang ]

[DemoMonkey]

Shang

An excellent first site. Much better than I could do.

Now get back to work on the mod! Those of us who aren't Beta testers are waiting!

[President_Elect_Shang]

There you go; StarFire Mod Beta Build 2 is ready for download from the download page of my website. Make sure you have patched to the latest Version of SE4G (patch 4) from the Malfador website. Also I use WinRar as my compression tool so I have included it for download. There are simple instructions beside the link but should you need more detailed ones my address is at the bottom of the download (and most every other) page. I have also decided to open this for anyone who wants to try it out, I feel that I am close enough to finalizing the Mod as Version 1 and want a wider audience. Link to my website is below in my signature block. Enjoy!

How was that for turn around time DM?

[Fyron]

You can always add the 50 KB SFX module, so that people will not have to download WinRar. They should still do so, but it is not strictly necessary. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[President_Elect_Shang]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
You can always add the 50 KB SFX module, so that people will not have to download WinRar. They should still do so, but it is not strictly necessary. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I do not know about this, can you feel me in please?

[ March 10, 2004, 20:28: Message edited by: President Elect Shang ]

[President_Elect_Shang]

Just in case someone downloaded it already, please go back and do it again. There was a hic-up that I did now about. This new download works fine.

[ March 10, 2004, 22:48: Message edited by: President Elect Shang ]

[DemoMonkey]

Shang

Downloaded the mods and winrar. Extracted the file, and it created a "Starfire Mod" folder. Cut and pasted the folder into my SEIVG folder. (I am using Vi,91). Launched the "SEIV Launcher" utility and picked the Starfire Mod. Game loads and begins normally.

BUT...

it's a "vanilla" game of SEIV. Nothing changed, no modifications of any sort.

Help?

[DemoMonkey]

This is all after you fixed your "hiccup".

[President_Elect_Shang]

Hum, I followed the exact same steps that you outlined below and it worked just fine. The problem must be in the Mod launcher. I am using Version 2.25. Are you sure that yours is Vi,91 or did you mean V 1.91. The older Version had some problems and this might be one of them. Let me know and I can always add Version 2.25 to the “Downloads” page.

Also since we are on the subject there is one patch to fix a minor but irritating problem, I will update the site later tonight. You will find the patch on the “SE4G Page” when it is ready. Sorry it took so long to get back to you, I will try to get more regular about checking the Forum. In the future you can always use the email address at the bottom of the “Downloads” page to reach me quicker.

[Imperial]

Heh great first site--like the pics of the kids-- always cool to see a proud family man show off http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[President_Elect_Shang]

Originally posted by Imperial:
Heh great first site--like the pics of the kids-- always cool to see a proud family man show off http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thanks, I appreciate the positive feedback, but I would like negatives too, helps me to improve.

[DemoMonkey]

Shang

I applied the "Windows" fix. Shut everything down, rebooted, and started over. Surprise, now it works.

Could we get an idea of what ISN'T currently in the mod? I don't want to start bringing up "bugs" when it's actually just features that haven't been implemented yet, or are still being worked on.

Though it does seem surprisingly easy to win. What with the AI never building any ships, and all.

[President_Elect_Shang]

Originally posted by DemoMonkey:
Shang

I applied the "Windows" fix. Shut everything down, rebooted, and started over. Surprise, now it works.

Could we get an idea of what ISN'T currently in the mod? I don't want to start bringing up "bugs" when it's actually just features that haven't been implemented yet, or are still being worked on.

Though it does seem surprisingly easy to win. What with the AI never building any ships, and all. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">LOL, I bet it is! If you head over to my web site and click "SE4G Page" then click "StarFire Mod" you will see a chart with the current status, that will also tell you why you are always winning unchallenged.

In short the AI has not been implemented yet, I can’t until I am ready for Version 1.0.

[ March 12, 2004, 15:32: Message edited by: President Elect Shang ]

[President_Elect_Shang]

Sigh It seems my Beta testers have disappeared, I am left to work on this alone. Oh well, I will finish it. At least I still have help with the Ship sets, knock on wood. However I have not received word back about the splash screen… Sigh

[TerranC]

Originally posted by President Elect Shang:
However I have not received word back about the splash screen… Sigh <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">When would you like it?

[ March 23, 2004, 21:46: Message edited by: TerranC ]

[Atrocities]

I can help beta test it if you like. No garrentees that I any good at it though. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[The Canuck]

id also be happy to help beta test... but i cant find the d/l for the mod

[Fyron]

Originally posted by President Elect Shang:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
You can always add the 50 KB SFX module, so that people will not have to download WinRar. They should still do so, but it is not strictly necessary. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I do not know about this, can you feel me in please? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Open an archive, in WinRar, click on Commands menu, then select Convert Archive to SFX. SFX stands for self extracting. This will create an executable instead of the .rar, which will have the necessary algorithms to extract itself. It can still be opened in WinRar (or nearly any non-WinZip archive utility) like a normal archive.

[abc]

Hi

I would like to help test the mod, too.

I downloaded it some time ago. Here are some points I noticed:

-Supplies:
I think the supply usage is too low. My ships can explore the whole universe without resupply.

I tested the supply usage of fighters with fuel pods yesterday. The range of my fighters was much higher than 12. They used 3 supply points per turn, iirc.

-Events:
No medical bay component and a plague event is a baaaaad combination http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

-Suicide Fighters:
No warhead component for fighters?? Why not? Suicide Gunboats and Shuttles sound like a good idea http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif (yup, I read the books)

-PDC:
There are no Life Support or Living Quarter componets for PDCs (at least in my data files)

That was all I can remember right now. I found a few errors (a size of 2kt instead of 20, for example), but i can't remeber the exact component right now

[ March 24, 2004, 10:42: Message edited by: abc ]

[President_Elect_Shang]

TerranC: You can do the splash screen also? You ARE the MAN! I didn’t want to ask you for it as I still feel guilty about having you do the ship sets by yourself. I am still trying to digest that DOGA file you sent. My hat is off to you and all of the ship set makers, I never realized how much work goes into creating even one ship until you sent that file. I will take it as soon as you can get it out.

Atrocities: Please do if you have the time. I want this Mod to be playable and fun for the non-initiated, if it is not than I have come up short and need to adjust it. Note: read the Last comments below.

The Canuk: If you click the link in my signature you will see a button for the ‘Downloads’ page, mid-way down on it you will see the Beta Build 2. After installing it click over to the ‘SE4G’ page and there you will see the first patch, install it and you are ready to play. Note: read the Last comments below.

abc:
Supplies: This was a hot issue during the revision to Beta Build 2. By [StarFire] cannon you can explore the whole galaxy without having to return to base. Your ships are considered refilled by the Commercial Freight Network (CFN) of your empire. It works well in the game but there are many other factors that affect it but can not be duplicated here. The other argument was that even in SE4G you could research the Quantum Reactor and do the same thing, mmm? There is a flaw in that logic…

Fighter Fuel Pod: Ack! What the heck? I put supplies in twice, thanks! Since my co-author and I are running campaign games we have not gotten fighter tech yet to test that one out. Good catch. It is fixed now and should provide speed 12 with an endurance of 2 without rest or refuel.

Medical Bays: Here is something known as Intrepid Explorers Disease. In the old SF it was an optional rule that could wipe out an entire colony. A microbe that was not considered harmful at first mutates into a deadly illness. I left the medical bays out to test players feelings on this, but I can add it back in at a later date.

Suicide Fighters: In the books, shuttles (many types) and gunboats where the main weapon of choice in this tactic. I could not Mod them in, in such a way to justify their expense as only ramming craft compared to the XO weapons. As for fighters they rammed but it was their missile load and the force of moving at a good portion of c that did the damage. I chose to leave them (fighter suicide weapons) out as the preferred tactic, even in the books, was to expend all ammo and then ram.

PDC: I did what? Again! Actually this is one of those minor details that slipped past during the change to Build 2. In the first Build they where not needed, then again there was only one size of PDC. I will fix that with the next patch.

2kt: That should be one of the Point Defense weapons, it is not a mistake. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Ok my fingers are getting tired so let’s wrap this up. By tonight I should have the next patch at my website. If you are already in a game and your favorite test empire is about to kill over take heart, this patch will break the game. You may have noticed that the “Box Missile Launcher” is an unbalanced component; it was left untouched as I had other plans for it that needed working out before implementing the changes. The next patch (vb2_2) will make these changes and should be out at my website tonight sometime.

[ March 24, 2004, 14:49: Message edited by: President Elect Shang ]

[President_Elect_Shang]

The latest patch for the StarFire Mod is out. Just follow the link in my signature and click over to the SE4G page. You will not need to download the first patch as SF Mod vb2.2 includes the first one. If you need the base game you will still need to click over to my Downloads page to get it then install the latest patch. Have fun and thanks for giving it a test run.

[abc]

I checked my notes for the tonnage error. It is still there in Patch 2.2

Name := Missile Box Launcher
Description := May fire up to 3 capital type missles.
Pic Num := 620
Tonnage Space Taken := 20
Tonnage Structure := 10

Name := Improved Missile Box Launcher
Description := May fire up to 4 capital type missiles.
Pic Num := 620
Tonnage Space Taken := 2
Tonnage Structure := 1

Check the PDC Box launcher, too. Same situation.

The enhanced drive missiles have point-defense as weapon type, but ships/planets as target. The weapon target should probably be seekers.

[ March 25, 2004, 08:48: Message edited by: abc ]

[abc]

Originally posted by President Elect Shang:
Supplies: This was a hot issue during the revision to Beta Build 2. By [StarFire] cannon you can explore the whole galaxy without having to return to base. Your ships are considered refilled by the Commercial Freight Network (CFN) of your empire. It works well in the game but there are many other factors that affect it but can not be duplicated here. The other argument was that even in SE4G you could research the Quantum Reactor and do the same thing, mmm? There is a flaw in that logic…<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">How about increasing the supply usage of engines? Ships can still explore the whole galaxy, but they'll have to stop to resupply once in a while.

[President_Elect_Shang]

Good catch abc, I got that fixed and the patch name is still the same on my website but with the designator (a) after the patch number. Also I learned how to do the ***.exe file to make it extract itself to the correct location, assuming that you did not change the default path of installation for SE4G.

The EDM is designed to help a ship by providing extra point defense it can’t mount, the target type is ship/planet to force the player to fire on one target and follow the missile in to that target or lose the protection. If I had set the target type to seekers than a player could launch a fleet of them at the start of the battle and just let them run around the map for the full 30 turns shooting away. As I am sure you can see not much fun.

[President_Elect_Shang]

Actually in my test game so far I do have to stop long enough to let the CFN recharge me. I need another 15 minutes to post the patch, problems connecting to server.

Patch up now.

[ March 25, 2004, 14:34: Message edited by: President Elect Shang ]

[President_Elect_Shang]

This post has no other purpose than to:

Thank abc for the great bug reports.

TerranC for all his hard work. (I am looking forward to that splash screen, put your John Hancock in one of the corners please)

Dan K: For being a great co-author and helping me to overcome many small and large errors!

Dawn Falcon: For some really great suggestions. I beat him up pretty hard for one or two of them, but damn if they arn't in the Mod today.

I thank all of you for the fine job and helping to give me the desire to see this project to its end.

[ March 25, 2004, 19:40: Message edited by: President Elect Shang ]

[Growltigger]

I am back for a brief while, real life has hit me with a vengeance, and I have been out of circulation (and the country) for a good few weeks, and I leave again on Monday.

I will try and instal the MOD and all patches this weekend, and give my initial feedback then

Sorry Wubbles

[President_Elect_Shang]

Mr Floppy: Welcome back, sort of, take your time. I said that I would keep your seat warm (La Grrrrrrrrrrr). Build 2 is a big change form the first one.

abc: It could be different ships, you are right.

Supply usage: Right, SJ is correct, but in StarFire engines do not require supplies, only regular maintenance for wear and tear. Still lets test this out some more, I have had two people comment on the supply issue and I am willing to Mod it back in. Keep in mind that the re-supply issue is a SE4G aspect, not a StarFire one. Also you should test the supplies in a ship armed to the teeth with missile weapons after a major combat. One way or another I see that this needs some serious looking into, good job!

Commercial Engine: Yes they give a higher strategic movement, and should be doing so in the Mod had I remembered to add the ability back in. One of those pre-move to Build 2 tests I ran. The military engines give a much higher combat movement and I would not suggest building a warship with commercial engines, but it has been done in past StarFire games. Have you played the game?

Spelling error: good catch, at least I got all the letters in there. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Plague: I don’t know as I am still apprehensive about having it in there in the first place. Part of me wants to take it out all together and I keep telling myself to just wait and see if the testers like it and what they want to do. So if that is your suggestion than I will mark one vote for upping the deadliness. None of the present games I am in use the rule and the new text books do not even mention IED. Sad as I really liked it, “Will my big butt colony that is the foundation of my Empires economy suddenly start dieing off”? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Colony Ships: Really? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif I can get the Class III Military Engine on mine? Check that one again and let me know how it turns out.

I can’t wait to get your feedback on the new Box Launchers; I must check the forum about 2k times a day to see your comments. I will wait till later tonight and put out a patch for the type-o and the commercial engines. It will not break a saved game.

[gregebowman]

Originally posted by President Elect Shang:
The latest patch for the StarFire Mod is out. Just follow the link in my signature and click over to the SE4G page. You will not need to download the first patch as SF Mod vb2.2 includes the first one. If you need the base game you will still need to click over to my Downloads page to get it then install the latest patch. Have fun and thanks for giving it a test run. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm having trouble on your site to get to the d/l. All of the buttons on the left side are blank (actually, they show up as boxes), and the little hand symbol doesn't show up when I go over them with the cursor. Is there a trick to accessing your site?

[President_Elect_Shang]

Really, wow that is the first I have heard of this problem. Let me run over and check it out. Strange looks fine to me, the curser will not change to a hand, you just click. I need to figure out how you get it to change to a hand, which would be cool. Give it another try, if that does not work than I will send the base and the latest patch to the email address you have listed in your profile. Note that there will be another patch put out tonight.

[Dan Kochheiser]

Originally posted by President Elect Shang:
Really, wow that is the first I have heard of this problem. Let me run over and check it out. Strange looks fine to me, the curser will not change to a hand, you just click. I need to figure out how you get it to change to a hand, which would be cool. Give it another try, if that does not work than I will send the base and the latest patch to the email address you have listed in your profile. Note that there will be another patch put out tonight. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I know that the hand thing has to do with the Mouse Over command. So you might want to look at that. I made a mouse over once that just changed the buttons from blue to red....

Dan K

[President_Elect_Shang]

Dan K, this isn't the problem you were having right? It was worse.

[President_Elect_Shang]

I am only 2027 Posts behind Atrocities Star Trek Mod thread, come on guys! We can do it! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Dan Kochheiser]

Originally posted by President Elect Shang:
Dan K, this isn't the problem you were having right? It was worse. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Correct. My problem is MUCH worse. IE shuts down ALL web windows and gives an error that IE experienced an error.

Have fun!
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Dan K

[gregebowman]

Originally posted by Dan Kochheiser:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by President Elect Shang:
Really, wow that is the first I have heard of this problem. Let me run over and check it out. Strange looks fine to me, the curser will not change to a hand, you just click. I need to figure out how you get it to change to a hand, which would be cool. Give it another try, if that does not work than I will send the base and the latest patch to the email address you have listed in your profile. Note that there will be another patch put out tonight. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I know that the hand thing has to do with the Mouse Over command. So you might want to look at that. I made a mouse over once that just changed the buttons from blue to red....

Dan K </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Just tried it again, and got the same result (or lack of, in my case). I can't get anything to click. As far as the mouse over, how do I change that? Everything on the Shrapnel site works fine. It's only on President Elect Shang's site am I having the problem.

[President_Elect_Shang]

Ok GB, I will email your address tonight with the Mod, it will be up-to-date so you won’t have to worry about the patches. I have a friend who is good with web pages and I will ask him if he can advise me on what the heck is going on with my page. I wish I knew more, or could at least see the problem for myself. The email will come from StarFireMod just so you know.

[Dan Kochheiser]

Originally posted by gregebowman:
Just tried it again, and got the same result (or lack of, in my case). I can't get anything to click. As far as the mouse over, how do I change that? Everything on the Shrapnel site works fine. It's only on President Elect Shang's site am I having the problem. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Mouse over is a html code thingy. Not something you can set but something Mr. Wubbles can set.

Dan K

[President_Elect_Shang]

HTML code? Crap, maybe I won't do the mouse thingy after all.

[abc]

Originally posted by President Elect Shang:
Actually in my test game so far I do have to stop long enough to let the CFN recharge me.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Maybe we are talking about different kinds of ships. In my patch 2.2 test game, my explorers moved for 10 years without running out of supplies. (ok, i forgot about them from time to time, but that shouldn't make a difference)

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
The supplies used by your engines is the sum of the individual supplies used, multiplied by the number of times you use them (# of sectors moved)...
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That means a ship with 4 engines (a corvette, engine per move =1) uses 4*1*4=16 supplies per turn. A single supply hold regenerates 20 supplies per turn (in a normal star system with one sun)
The ship can move forever without running out of supplies.

A Monitor with an engine tuner V and only one supply hold is going to run out of supplies fast, of course. No surprise http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

The books gave me the impression, that commercial engines provide a higher strategic movement than military ones? Am I wrong? There is no reason to use commercial engines here. They are 60% cheaper, but twice as large!!!


Small spelling error:
PDC Crew Quarter:
Area of a PDC where crew adn troops spend off-hour

Plague:
Maybe you could change the severity of the plague event to high or even catastrophic.

Colony ships:
I noticed that colony ships can only use commercial engines(unlike freighters) in v2.2
I don't know if that is intentional.

Now I'm off to test the new Box Missile Launcher http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[abc]

Originally posted by President Elect Shang:
Supply usage: Right, SJ is correct, but in StarFire engines do not require supplies, only regular maintenance for wear and tear. Still lets test this out some more, I have had two people comment on the supply issue and I am willing to Mod it back in. Keep in mind that the re-supply issue is a SE4G aspect, not a StarFire one. Also you should test the supplies in a ship armed to the teeth with missile weapons after a major combat. One way or another I see that this needs some serious looking into, good job!

Commercial Engine: Yes they give a higher strategic movement, and should be doing so in the Mod had I remembered to add the ability back in. One of those pre-move to Build 2 tests I ran. The military engines give a much higher combat movement and I would not suggest building a warship with commercial engines, but it has been done in past StarFire games. Have you played the game?<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">nope, i read In Death Ground and The Shiva Option. All my knowledge about StarFire comes from the two books.

The supply issue was a thing I noticed because my explorers could fly across the whole universe, no something I am accustomed to from other SE4 mods http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I tested the enhanced drive missiles yesterday. With ships/planets as weapon target they ignored enemy sekker/drones and rammed the enemy ship. With sat/seeker/fighter/drone as target (and fighter(one shot) as strategy) they reacted to the enemy drones (meaning the EDMs shot at them when the enemy missiles moved) on their way to the enemy ship, which the EDMs still rammed as soon as possible.

I think that behaviour is the one you want http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

colony ship: I'll check it out again, maybe I simply missed the military engine mount.


I can’t wait to get your feedback on the new Box Launchers<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I didn't have much time yesterday to test the Box Launchers. My solution to problems is "more capital missiles" at the moment, so I'm going to like them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[President_Elect_Shang]

abc: The supply issue is good, don’t write it off, I don’t want you too. Just keep testing it and we can go from there after I get more feedback.

EDM: If they don’t work than I will need to put more thought into them, considering the advantage they give in battle I may have to toy with them some more by providing them with less movement (or even no movement) in battle and setting them to target seekers. They should not be able to fire on a fighter, which is the Defense Pod’s job, so write that idea off (fighters) when you are toying with the targeting type. However just to make sure tell me again, they would ram the ships and fire on the seekers with a target type of what?

More Capital Missiles: Ha, welcome to StarFire, I need to get you fully introduced to the game as you obviously have the right mind set.

Books: “In Death Ground” and “Shiva Option”, they where good but after having read them all I think they where the worst of the serious. If you like them, than you need to read “Crusade” (my personal favorite) and “Insurrection” which takes place after the Arachnid War but Weber wrote the book before the Arachnid War.

Finally if you get into the game, the 3rd Edition Version of it anyway, you can purchase non-novel books that will let you recreate all of the above wars and some other ones that Weber and others dreamed up but where never made into novels. And if that isn’t good enough there is a community of us 3rd Edition players that have games going. I am in two play-by-email games right now, and the software to run those games is easy to learn and best of all FREE! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Come over to the StarFire side, you know you want to, you can feel the real emperor inside you calling to get out, the one that never feels satisfied when wiping the crap out of an AI. My email (use the SF Mod one) is over at my web site, and I have ICQ if you prefer the faster method of chat, even emails are a little slow.

Operators are standing by. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[President_Elect_Shang]

EDM: Yes I think Seeker/Drone targeting is good, I will toy with the idea of satellites and mines also, but that is not there function as there are other weapons to do that. I will include this in the next patch.

XO Missile: You should have set the strategy to ram, try this and they should fire before making contact then move in to ram. With the strategy set to optimal fire range they will want to move away (what happened in your test) until the weapon reloads, but it will not [reload] in that combat phase.

Wow! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif Need to decrease the cargo hold! Let me make a note of that for the next patch, suggestions on size? I think 200 should do the trick very nicely and keep proportions to other cargo holding components. The XO Auto-Loader will also need adjusted.

XO Auto Loader: Good point, this is a home made component and not from cannon. I decided not to give it the armor ability for three reasons. (1) The way I envision it is as an internal component that feeds the XO racks by a system of rails, which alone would take away any armor trait. (2) The XO racks have the armor ability and if they get destroyed than the Auto Loader is doing nothing but soaking up damage and eating space. (3) When you develop the Box Launchers (if I don’t change them back to there old form) it would really piss people off to lose all of there ammo when the Auto-Loader gets blown away before there armor is even breached; http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif which could happen if it has the armor ability.

Colony Ships: It would be very easy to miss the Class III mount if you are testing with all techs given, the weapon mounts would push the Class III mount down so you have to scroll to see it.

Sun: What sun, I see nothing but clouds! And I wanted to take the kids to the park today. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[abc]

I'll think about the supply issue some more.

EDM: I simply copied the fighter/sat/seeker/drone target type! There were no fighters or sats present during my test. Set the target type to seeker or seeker/drone and they'll leave fighters and sats alone.

Btw, i tested XO Sprint Missiles in the simulator yesterday. I set the strategy to drone attack(optimal firing range/ram), but the drones moved to the edge of the map after firing! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif Has anybody an idea what i did wrong??

Cargo holds: Maybe you could decrease the cargo capacity of cargo components. A level 4 freighter has a capacity of 7500 (1.5 billion population)
And you can build it almost at the start of the game. A level 10 freighter can probably load a homeworld's complete population!

Another suggestion: give the XO Autoloader the armor ability. It reloads XO racks and should be damaged first, too!

Colony Ships: I can use military engines, too. Probably just missed it.

Playing a real StarFire game sounds really interesting http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I'll send you an e-mail tomorrow...the sun is shining, that is even more interesting http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[abc]

Originally posted by President Elect Shang:
XO Missile: You should have set the strategy to ram, try this and they should fire before making contact then move in to ram. With the strategy set to optimal fire range they will want to move away (what happened in your test) until the weapon reloads, but it will not [reload] in that combat phase.

XO Auto Loader: Good point, this is a home made component and not from cannon. I decided not to give it the armor ability for three reasons. (1) The way I envision it is as an internal component that feeds the XO racks by a system of rails, which alone would take away any armor trait. (2) The XO racks have the armor ability and if they get destroyed than the Auto Loader is doing nothing but soaking up damage and eating space. (3) When you develop the Box Launchers (if I don’t change them back to there old form) it would really piss people off to lose all of there ammo when the Auto-Loader gets blown away before there armor is even breached; http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif which could happen if it has the armor ability.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sprint missiles still don't work correctly. They fire and then move off http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif

Auto Loader: If you decrease the cargo capacity, you'll need real cargo holds anyway. With XO Rack V, a ship can fire 20 XO missiles in two turns!

Weapon ranges: I noticed that there isn't much difference between the range ofenergy/sprint weapons and seekers on higher tech level. Maybe you could create three distinctive weapon ranges: XO Missiles, normal missiles(range 20) and energy/sprint weapons(range 10)

[President_Elect_Shang]

Sprint XO Missile: I don’t know what the h#@l is going on here. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif I tried it and the drone moved in and rammed without ever firing. I will take a closer look into this and see if I can figure out what the problem is. The default strategy I have for drone attack is ram/maximum weapons range. When I flipped them around the XO Sprint Missile fired but did not ram, then again it did not flee to the far edge of the map.

Auto Loader: That would be true except for two things. One the auto loader only takes up one hull space so it is great for filling in those extra spaces. And two, I just changed the price of the Cargo Hold so that ten auto loaders cost the same as one cargo hold. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Now ten auto loaders not only take up the same space but cost the same. Either way the player will not get an advantage but can still us both effectively.

Weapon ranges: Yes I understand just what you are saying, but without having the texts to refer to you probably don’t realize how big of a problem that is. The true difference in ranges becomes apparent at more than 20 sectors. The daddy of the combat field should be the Heavy Bombardment Missile at a max range of 60 sectors. To mimic this I would have to cut all weapon ranges by one third. Not that I am against doing that but I would need some feedback on it from my co-author? Dan K what do you think? If I do this it will also mean that ship combat speed will need to be looked at. First however I think that the range issue should be addressed and tested, once that is done than the ship speed can be looked at.

Supplies: I am thinking that supplies should be cut back to around 10 points per star instead of the current 20, thoughts and feedback?

With all of the detailed testing that you and Dan are doing I feel that I can relax on my testing. This will finally give me the break I have been looking for to start working on the other as yet unfinished files. First though I would like to see you and Dan K start a dialogue here that I can follow, and the bumping of StarFire and Non-StarFire heads should lead to some good results.

[President_Elect_Shang]

I got the Sprint XO Missile to fire and the deciding factor here seems to be the range. After which it moved in and rammed. I can’t understand what is taking place in your situation abc, except that I would suggest trying again with the drone attack strategy set as I outlined it below. Let me know what happens when you do this. If it still does not work than start a new game and try that. Also if you go to the Version_History.txt and scroll down you will see what Build you are using, check to make sure that it says Build 2 below the Build 1 entry at the top. Sorry but I forgot to update that part of the ReadMe.txt or I would just ask you to check there.

I double checked myself by testing this same thing in the base Version of the game. Here to it fired then moved in to ram even though it could have fired again. This tells me that I will need to adjust the speed of the XO weapons. I will take a closer look at them later today and see if I can get away with cutting the speed of only those that are direct fire type however, in all likelihood I will need to adjust almost all of them to maintain a balance.

[abc]

Supplies: 10 point per star sounds good! Let's try it and see how it works out.

Missiles: Can you change the HBM to a drone warhead??

Drones: I'll test them some more, too. there has to be a way to make them work correctly+

Auto Loader: It's really a minor point. The auto loader reloads XO Racks, so it should be exposed to enemy fire, too. But one or more damaged components won't make a difference after a battle. With the new box launchers, ships will need more cargo capacity(multiple cargo holds) anyway.

[President_Elect_Shang]

Supplies: I think the main concern in supplies (correct me if I am wrong) is the fact that with this mod you do not have to return back to a re-supply depot. We can keep the topic open but in Atrocities Star Trek Mod you can add the Bussard Collector (there are other items) that has the same effect. As I mentioned before I think that I will leave the supplies alone.

[Dan Kochheiser]

Originally posted by President Elect Shang:
Sprint XO Missile: I don’t know what the h#@l is going on here. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif I tried it and the drone moved in and rammed without ever firing. I will take a closer look into this and see if I can figure out what the problem is. The default strategy I have for drone attack is ram/maximum weapons range. When I flipped them around the XO Sprint Missile fired but did not ram, then again it did not flee to the far edge of the map.

Auto Loader: That would be true except for two things. One the auto loader only takes up one hull space so it is great for filling in those extra spaces. And two, I just changed the price of the Cargo Hold so that ten auto loaders cost the same as one cargo hold. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Now ten auto loaders not only take up the same space but cost the same. Either way the player will not get an advantage but can still us both effectively.

Weapon ranges: Yes I understand just what you are saying, but without having the texts to refer to you probably don’t realize how big of a problem that is. The true difference in ranges becomes apparent at more than 20 sectors. The daddy of the combat field should be the Heavy Bombardment Missile at a max range of 60 sectors. To mimic this I would have to cut all weapon ranges by one third. Not that I am against doing that but I would need some feedback on it from my co-author? Dan K what do you think? If I do this it will also mean that ship combat speed will need to be looked at. First however I think that the range issue should be addressed and tested, once that is done than the ship speed can be looked at.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If we are trying to stay close to cannon then the ranges are important to keep. Part of what makes Starfire what it is is the arms race that occurs with weapons and ranges. As the Higher Tech weapons get longer reaches and increased damage. THe speed remains a relative constant through out the Tech levels so Speed and Turning is something less of an issue as the biggest issue is getting range.

Supplies: I am thinking that supplies should be cut back to around 10 points per star instead of the current 20, thoughts and feedback?<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What is the issue with supplies? In Starfire cannon, the only time you fall out of supplies is when that fleet gets cut off from the empire. Rare enough event in itself. Commerce raiding is real difficult because of the nature of warp points. So far, my fleets have been unable to run out of supplies, but also been unable to fully restock every turn. Though not strictly cannon, it does seem to work close enough to get the 'feel' of Starfire.

With all of the detailed testing that you and Dan are doing I feel that I can relax on my testing. This will finally give me the break I have been looking for to start working on the other as yet unfinished files. First though I would like to see you and Dan K start a dialogue here that I can follow, and the bumping of StarFire and Non-StarFire heads should lead to some good results. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm game... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Two disparete views generally will produce a more 'even' product.

Dan K

[Lighthorse]

Just downloaded your starfire mod. Very interesting ideas. The problem I have is the unknown values errors Messages for all the ai races, cannot load research, weapon, this, and that, etc. Is it because I updated my copy of SE4 gold to 1.91 and this mod was design for 1.84?

Lighthorse

[ March 31, 2004, 04:32: Message edited by: Lighthorse ]

[abc]

I think we can drop the supply usage issue.
I am not against unlimited supplies, i just noticed that supply wasn't a problem from the start of the game!
But we are working on a StarFire mod, so that's not a real problem.

BTW, do we really need the resupply depot?Maybe we can give the resupply ability to the shipyard (and/or the spaceport). Spaceports with resupply ability should represent the CFN nicely.
Comments?

[President_Elect_Shang]

I can transfer the ability to the Planetary Shipyards, or even the Space Port. I would prefer to avoid adding it to any kind of ship component, such as the Ship Yard or Medium Ship Yard. The question I have to ask you two is this: After a big fight where your missile ships have sucked your supplies to just about nothing where do you want to go to refuel? If you are putting a Planetary Shipyard on every planet fine but some of those planets are damn small. There is no point in putting the ability with the Space Port, unless you are happy with only one planet per system acting as a refuel depot, building more than one spaceport per system is a waste of money and planetary space. Also keep in mind that new construction does not automatically start out refueled, nor do ships freshly un-mothballed.

If you want my opinion I think that it should go to the Planetary Shipyard, what are the chances you are going to spend lots of time and money to build an orbiting shipyard (Space Station or whatever hull type) and not have some kind of planetary unit below to back it up?

[Dan Kochheiser]

Originally posted by President Elect Shang:
I can transfer the ability to the Planetary Shipyards, or even the Space Port. I would prefer to avoid adding it to any kind of ship component, such as the Ship Yard or Medium Ship Yard. The question I have to ask you two is this: After a big fight where your missile ships have sucked your supplies to just about nothing where do you want to go to refuel? If you are putting a Planetary Shipyard on every planet fine but some of those planets are damn small. There is no point in putting the ability with the Space Port, unless you are happy with only one planet per system acting as a refuel depot, building more than one spaceport per system is a waste of money and planetary space. Also keep in mind that new construction does not automatically start out refueled, nor do ships freshly un-mothballed.

If you want my opinion I think that it should go to the Planetary Shipyard, what are the chances you are going to spend lots of time and money to build an orbiting shipyard (Space Station or whatever hull type) and not have some kind of planetary unit below to back it up? <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Canon answer to your question...the CFN. Merchants bring everything to you. If the CFN won't go there then you have your Imperial freighters and your Mobile yards bring it to you. And you have the SHipyards build the missile because it's cheaper.
In starfire, when the ship rolls outit is automatically topped off on all stores, ammo and fuel. And this condition NEVER changes unless the CFN cannot get to you. If planed for, you will have lots of extra maintenance stored on board or in resupply ships in the fleet.
So having it in SHipayrds would do a great deal of simulating the CFN.

Dan K

[ZeroAdunn]

Hey, Diggin the mod, if you produce some competitive AI's it will probably become one of ym Favorites, however, one question: Do you eventually get tech to cure plagues. (Homeworld slowly dying sucks)

Oh, and you have no primary or secondary bitmap pics for your weapons platforms.

[ March 31, 2004, 23:28: Message edited by: ZeroAdunn ]

[Dan Kochheiser]

Originally posted by Lighthorse:
Just downloaded your starfire mod. Very interesting ideas. The problem I have is the unknown values errors Messages for all the ai races, cannot load research, weapon, this, and that, etc. Is it because I updated my copy of SE4 gold to 1.91 and this mod was design for 1.84?

Lighthorse <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">AI's are not active in the mod yet, Lighthorse. So turn off AI's till further notice and your errors should go away.

Dan K

[Dan Kochheiser]

Originally posted by abc:
BTW, do we really need the resupply depot?Maybe we can give the resupply ability to the shipyard (and/or the spaceport). Spaceports with resupply ability should represent the CFN nicely.
Comments? <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's not a bad idea. SY's and SYM's are what all materials are routed through to build everything. Resupplies being done at those bases would do a good job of supporting the feel of Starfire if we gave SY's, SYM's and Planetary yards all the resupply ability.

[TerranC]

Wow, haven't seen you in a long time ZA. Where have you been?

[abc]

Originally posted by ZeroAdunn:
Hey, Diggin the mod, if you produce some competitive AI's it will probably become one of ym Favorites, however, one question: Do you eventually get tech to cure plagues. (Homeworld slowly dying sucks)

Oh, and you have no primary or secondary bitmap pics for your weapons platforms. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">At the moment, a vote is going on about the plague event. As far as I know, one of one vote is for increasing the severity to catastrophic.


Medical Bays: Here is something known as Intrepid Explorers Disease. In the old SF it was an optional rule that could wipe out an entire colony. A microbe that was not considered harmful at first mutates into a deadly illness. I left the medical bays out to test players feelings on this, but I can add it back in at a later date.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

[President_Elect_Shang]

Originally posted by ZeroAdunn:
Do you eventually get tech to cure plagues. (Homeworld slowly dying sucks)<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">There is another thing I am not to happy about, that it could happen anywhere. Then again who is to say that it was not transported to the “old” colony (or even home world) by someone from the “new” colony that is on vacation?

Oh, and you have no primary or secondary bitmap pics for your weapons platforms.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Holy crap Batman! And no one else caught this? Thanks I will fix that in the next patch. Speaking of which there will be a small delay before it comes out. RL problems, nothing big, just time consuming.

[Dan Kochheiser]

Originally posted by President Elect Shang:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Oh, and you have no primary or secondary bitmap pics for your weapons platforms.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Holy crap Batman! And no one else caught this? Thanks I will fix that in the next patch. Speaking of which there will be a small delay before it comes out. RL problems, nothing big, just time consuming. [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I wouldn't know where to look for those...haven't used them yet.

As for RL...take your time. RL is more important than the game...(I know. Blasphemy! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif )

I know around the Last week of Oct I will have my own RL to deal with...expected birth of my first child. SO be forwarned... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Dan K

[President_Elect_Shang]

Originally posted by Dan Kochheiser:
I know around the Last week of Oct I will have my own RL to deal with...expected birth of my first child. SO be forwarned... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Dan K <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Are you going to name him/her UN or Zombee? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Originally posted by Dan Kochheiser:

I know around the Last week of Oct I will have my own RL to deal with...expected birth of my first child. SO be forwarned... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Dan K <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Congratulations to your wife and you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Dan Kochheiser]

Originally posted by President Elect Shang:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Dan Kochheiser:
I know around the Last week of Oct I will have my own RL to deal with...expected birth of my first child. SO be forwarned... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Dan K <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Are you going to name him/her UN or Zombee? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I tried angling for a Lord of Hell's name...but the Fiancee has so far opposed any cool names...She wants something more normal like Emma or Daniel... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif

[Dan Kochheiser]

Originally posted by narf poit chez BOOM:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Dan Kochheiser:

I know around the Last week of Oct I will have my own RL to deal with...expected birth of my first child. SO be forwarned... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Dan K <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Congratulations to your wife and you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thanks, but we are only engaged. And this will be her third child. The other two live with us, both boys. The oldest has the mkings of a gamer, the younger not so much. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Dan K

[President_Elect_Shang]

Dan K: Insert Darth Vader's breathing sounds: You must work with the younger one, he can be turned to gamer side!

To everyone: Due to a few problems, and my general unhappiness with the old site, I have launched a new one. Done by hand, line by line! Check it out and give me some feedback?

http:home.satx.rr.com/frananded

[narf poit chez BOOM]

took a quick look. your email and your news date are on the same line on the first page.

[President_Elect_Shang]

Originally posted by narf poit chez BOOM:
took a quick look. your email and your news date are on the same line on the first page. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I can fix that, what browser do you use?

[Dan Kochheiser]

Originally posted by President Elect Shang:

To everyone: Due to a few problems, and my general unhappiness with the old site, I have launched a new one. Done by hand, line by line! Check it out and give me some feedback?

http:home.satx.rr.com/frananded <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I can now access the site from home. But the SEIV page's has a very dark background. It is hard to read anything on that page.

Dan K

[President_Elect_Shang]

I will make the font lighter as the background is supposed to look like a star field. I found a major blunder in all of the pages so I will remake them again and make the change to font at that time. Hay what can I say? No one is teaching me this stuff, just me and this book! Keep the suggestions rolling in. This site is to support my wife's morale so I will be working on it for the next few days, after I am done I will turn back to the Mod full force.

[ZeroAdunn]

If you had to settle on something, maybe a limited ability to cure plagues, or maybe a facility (expensive one that prevents plagues).

Again, I have never played starfury now would I know where to get the books.

Also: I keep getting errors when using fighter weapons and pd in combat.

[President_Elect_Shang]

Fighter weapons and point defense in combat? I will look into that but can you give me a little more info?

StarFire… just go into any bookstore and ask for help to find books by David Weber. He also writes the Honor Herrington Series. You are looking for: Crusade, In Death Ground, Shiva Option, and Insurrection. Those are the only four written so far. I personally recommend Crusade out of the four.

To pick up the rule books than you should email me so that I can keep you from getting confused between StarFire 3rd Edition, what this Mod uses, and Galactic StarFire.

[President_Elect_Shang]

Ok, the website is now updated and working great. I have some business tomorrow but I will start back to work on the Mod this week, I should have a patch out by Thursday before I leave town.

Dan K: How are you doing with that project? Do you think you will be done so that I can include it in the next patch?

Website: http://home.satx.rr.com/frananded

Click over to the SE4G page and you will see the patches when they come out. Click once more for the StarFire Mod page and you can see the progress and any future plans. Click over to the Downloads page and you can get the base build 2 of the Mod. Enjoy!

[ZeroAdunn]

Actually, a big fan of weber, that is why I have been interested in finding out about starfire for some time. I am currently reading the shiva option and am about halfway through the honor series.

I would be interested in learning more about starfire 3rd ed. but I haven't been able to find in on shelves anywhere and the starfire sites ordering section is a little confusing.

As for the bugs I was talking about, I will reproduce them tonight and post the info.

[ZeroAdunn]

Never mind on the combat error, I have found the issue, it was with my imagemod download.

Found a minor bug though: You know you can add multiple fuel pods to fighers? This produce some ludicrously fast fighters.

[abc]

Shaped Charge 1: The mount decreases the range of drone warheads to 0 (or -9).

Engine Governor: There is no difference between engine governor I and II. The second Version only costs more, but doesn't provide a better protection.

Engine Tuners: These things are powerful! They increase the speed of a monitor from 2 to 7 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Oh, and the engine tuner 2 provides 2 bonus movement points, engine tuner 3 4 movements points. I don't know whether that is deliberate or not.

Btw, has anybody gotten the sprint xo missiles to work correctly yet??

[Dieter]

Ahh ... the wonders of the internet ...
I've been out of town on business and needed a Starfire fix and was able to get to the Forum and from there to your new web page ...

Went to the "Downloads Page" ... figured I could get some "testing" in during my "spare" time ... but find that the links on the page (not Navication) do not seem to work ... specifically the "Space Empires 4 Gold Downloads" link ...

Am I doing something wrong ???
Are the downloads actually somewhere else ???
Or is this a possible "glich" in you new web site?

-Dieter

[President_Elect_Shang]

Been out sick with one of the kids, very sick!. I will be back later to have a longer look at the issues.

Sorry for the delay,
PE Shang

[President_Elect_Shang]

Test post for new avatar.

[President_Elect_Shang]

That will work for me, thanks TerranC. Sarcasm (not directed at TerranC) edited out. This one will work just fine.

I am looking forward to the new splash screen also TerranC. Any word on how it is coming?

[ April 09, 2004, 03:57: Message edited by: President Elect Shang ]

[President_Elect_Shang]

Second test post for new avatar, tweaked.

[TerranC]

Originally posted by President Elect Shang:
That will work for me, thanks TerranC. Sarcasm (not directed at TerranC) edited out. This one will work just fine.

I am looking forward to the new splash screen also TerranC. Any word on how it is coming? <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Coming along not as quickly as I would like it to be, but I think you'd agree with my putting off finishing the splash screen until after I finish a shipset, wouldn't you? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif .

And if that sarcasm pertained to the lack of news concerning the graphics, I'd have to say I agree with you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Edit: Forgot to mention this before I pressed the post message button; with easter, now I've got 4 days of free time which I plan to mostly devote to making and finishing most of the Terran shipset. I guess we'll be having a chat soon, eh? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ April 09, 2004, 04:36: Message edited by: TerranC ]

[President_Elect_Shang]

No, the sarcasm had nothing to do with you; I don’t want to get into too much detail.