OT: Moron Sues Over Roof Jumping

[Fyron]

This is what happens when you circumvent natural selection:

http://www.local6.com/money/4239256/detail.html

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

[narf poit chez BOOM]

I just gotta wonder how long till we see 'Warning: Made to kill' on the side of a gun.

[Aiken]

Why not skyscrapers?? Much more thrill.

[Raging Deadstar]

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif

This just has to be a hoax...

That kid is an honourable mention for the Darwin Awards (http://www.darwinawards.com/) right now.

[Atrocities]

Watch, some day some jerk will sue Malfador because he played SEIV and then went out and glassed an entire planet. "The game made me do it." Its never about personal responsibility any more.

Believe it or not, but at least once every year some idiot thinks up the brillant plan of sneaking into someones house by going down the chiminy. After hours and hours of rescue work they are freed and then later sue the home owner over the ordeal. It happens each year up hear without fail. I ask you how is it that these fools have survived this long without circoming to a trajic and violent accidental death? Easy, warning lables. "Do not use in shower." "My be sliper when wet," etc.

We just really need a natural event that collectively removes the stupid people from our society.

The one big question I have is, why do women find these morons more appealling than I? Is it because they are uber retards - beef cakes, or is it because they have such low standards that idots who make the Darwin Awards seem smart to them? Whatever it is, it needs to be stopped.

[Atrocities]

OMG! 293 people actually think that its the Garages fault and that the garage should be held responsible. Well I guess we know of 293 people who should never be allowed out into public again. (No offense, but they are all most likely trial injury lawyers.)

Choice Votes Percentage of 11600 Votes
The Garages Are Responsible 293 3%
Garage Jumpers Are Responsible 11307 97%

[NullAshton]

Some of this stuff is funny http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[DeadZone]

"I don't think we recognized it before as a danger," Vennero said.



No, of course not, its not like jumping across roofs which are over 80feet in the air is a danger now is it?

I agree with AT about the natural event comment

[NullAshton]

Someone got a million dollars off of McDonald's for phyisical and emotional pain when the coffee burnt their tounge. People do some really stupid things... Coffee is supposed to be hot!

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

Perhaps we should send one third of our population out into a space-ark and tell them they're the second of three arks with alphabetical indicators. And then let's set the ark's systems to be locked into a direct course for the planet surface, so they crash.

I mean, what harm could they possibly do.....?

[Imperious_Leader]

She actually spilled the coffee over her private area.She was driving away with it squeezed between her legs trying to open it up,makes her even stupider.At the time I was managing a fast food joint I vividly remember testing the temp of our coffee and adjusting the temp down so one of the local retards wouldn't try to do the same thing just so they could sue us.I hate cold coffee....I never drank it at work again.

We actually were sued by another woman who's child was injured in our play area. The whole thing is covered in thick padding her little brat got a good long run right into one of the sides of the da*ed thing.Split his forehead open .Wanted 10,000.00 incase he ever needed plastic surgery. We won ,but only because we could prove that she had been reading the newspaper while he ran around the dinning room and then into the side of the play area. What if he had run into one of our walls instead....would she have argued that we shouldn't have had walls everywhere ....just made me sick.

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

That's the one-thirds of the global population I mean.

Just send them away in an ark ship. Tell them it's the second of three, I've said this just a moment ago - the B-Ark.

[NullAshton]

Lets place all these people who do these stupid things on that ark. Once that ark crashes into that planet, the average IQ of the universe will probally go up about 20 points.

[Intimidator]

NullAshton said:
Someone got a million dollars off of McDonald's for phyisical and emotional pain when the coffee burnt their tounge. People do some really stupid things... Coffee is supposed to be hot!





Sorry guys, have to go...............drinking some coffee at mc's ............... oh S**T I life in Holland,
Over here when somebody drives you over with an truck on purpose, you may be happy when at least your clothes are being paid back!!!!!!!!!

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

NA, I gather you have not read the second part of the HHGTTG series, "The Restaurant At The End Of The Universe"?

That ark - the "B-Ark" was on it's way from a planet called Golgafrincham with one useless third of their population (though there were only fifteen million people on that ship - kinda makes you wonder doesn't it) and set to crash-land on a planet somewhere.

They eventually did.

They crash landed in Africa about two million years ago and went on to become the major life form on this bloody planet.

[NullAshton]

Wouldn't that mess up us, the supercomputer?

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

The African proto-human natives were dying out at the time. The Golgafrinchans weren't part of the supercomputer, but I believe that over time we became a part of the computation, or at least partially. This is evidenced by Arthur Dent's creating part of the Question on the planet with self-made Scrabble tiles he was using to try to teach the natives language. Also, before Arthur and Ford got stuck on the Ark, Marvin said he saw the Question printed in Arthur's brainwave pattern.

[NullAshton]

Oookay...

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

Read TRATEOTU, it's explained in detail there - right down to the Captain's wishing they found a soap mine.

[NullAshton]

Only read the first one. Why would the missles turn into a humpback whale and a potted plant O.o

[Caduceus]

NullAshton said:
Someone got a million dollars off of McDonald's for phyisical and emotional pain when the coffee burnt their tounge. People do some really stupid things... Coffee is supposed to be hot!



Interesting case, the woman in question got coffee that was 180 degrees Farenheit from a McDonalds, which spilled in her lap while driving and gave her 3rd degree burns. Now of course one should not be driving, but the thought is why would you give someone coffee THAT hot?

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

Erm..... Infinite Improbability Drive, perhaps? I mean, it COULD happen..... the chances are simply astronomically tiny. But it COULD happen.

[DeadZone]

Over here, if she done that, she would of been fined for being distracted at the wheel, which I'd agree with

[Atrocities]

NullAshton said:
Someone got a million dollars off of McDonald's for phyisical and emotional pain when the coffee burnt their tounge. People do some really stupid things... Coffee is supposed to be hot!



This just proves that even smart people sometimes don't have all the facts. You should research this story more and when you do you will find that this lady was hurt through the neglect of McDonalds and deserved every cent she got.

[Slick]

I agree that people should take the time to read the facts. Another McFact is that her case was successfully appealed by McD and her settlement was lowered to less than $500K.

[Imperious_Leader]

I'm sorry if you take a cup of coffee that says on it caution contents are hot , stick it between your legs and try to take the lid off as you drive you are 100% at fault not 20 % as the jury found.When this all happened the coffee we served was 170F the coffee from McDonalds was 180F we lowered ours to 130F if you were drinking it right then and there that would be fine but if you are taking it somewhere to drink...as she should have been 130F would be luke warm by the time you got there.
If you sit at home and drink yourself into a stupor then decide to go for a little drive wreck your car and lose both your legs do you then sue the company that brews your favorite beer?Come on surely the company that brews your beer knows that if you drink enough of their product you and possibly others are going to get hurt.Thus they should begin to make nothing but non alcholic beer at once.I could honestly find more reason to hold your beer company at fault than McDonalds because your favorite beer is guaranteed to make you act stupid.
It isn't that I feel no sympathy for the woman who burned herself but , it's time that people stop blaming everyone else for their problems or mistakes.She should have been charged with failing to properly control her vehicle because if she was fiddiling with her coffee lid she wasn't giving her full attention to driving.
Oh I almost forgot about all the cell phone companies we know that their product is causing accidents everyday , guess it's time for someone to sue them too.

[Fyron]

In that case, the McDonald's lawyers blatantly harrassed the woman in court. McDonald's deserved to lose money over the issue for that alone, irregardless of who was "at fault" for the hot coffee. Also, I am fairly certain that the woman was in a parked car in the passenger seat, not driving, when it occured. It really is a terrible example of excessive litigous suits...

Here is a web site you should read:

http://www.centerjd.org/free/mythbusters-free/MB_mcdonalds.htm

[Imperious_Leader]

Thanks for the link Imperator.....I stand corrected she was not driving and the car was parked.I checked your link then googled the lawsuit.All the sites I ckecked seem to agree.That said I still don't consider sticking a hot cup of coffee between your legs and poping the lid off to be very bright,though I will admit to having done it[not while driving] , however if I had spilled it on my ....well you know my first thought ...after I stopped screaming would be wow that was really stupid of me not I going to blame someone else for my being stupid.Anyway I feel for her but she still don't deserve a cent .

[Atrocities]

The facts vary, but the linked to sight should be considered the best source for info.

EDITED: No point in reposting the info that the site Fyron linked to did so well.

I challenge any one of you to face the same situation and then NOT sue for pain and sufforing, medical, and emotional distress.

[luke_slovakian]

Ok first how is it 180 degrees? boiling is 100 degrees....oh wait farenhite:-d dumb us temp and their "americain" talk and the ganster talking like, "hey foo, move fool, foo" US US what are we ever turning into

[Imperious_Leader]

Sorry AT on this we'll have to agree to disagree . I simply can not see how anyone myself included can stick a hot cup of coffee between their legs open it up and not accept responsibility for the risk they are taking.After all it is really a question of degree [pardon the pun]do you have a reasonable degree of expectation of not burning your self by taking the lid off the coffee?Answer no.Coffee is hot if she had spilled coffee that was only 120F would she have been burned? answer yes.So did she have a reasonable expectation of not being burned? Answer no.The sevarity of the burn is not relavant.She had no reasonable expcation of not being burned so , in doing what she did she must accept responsibility for the risk.If the coffee had only been 120F and had only caused first degree burns instead of third degree burns would she still have had pain and suffering medical bills? What she did and I and probable most of you have done is not without risk , alot of things in life are not , but if we ignore the risk and do it anyway we shouldn't be rewarded for it.A few years ago someone talked me into going sky diving...Before my first jump I had to sign a ton of papers saying that if I got killed they couldn't be held responsible.I thought it was crazy how could any rational person jump out of a perfectly good airplane and not accept that there was risk involved but they had to cover themselves just incase someone got killed or injured one wouldn't want the greving family to claim that the deceased didn't understand that dropping from 10,000 Ft could cause signifigant injury would one?
As to your question about who wouldn't sue....in a society where no accepts responsibility for what they do but instead blame how they were raised or the violent games they play or the music that was on the raido their mother , father , God ,the devil,or whatever other crack pot excuse they can think up.....most would sue .

[Fyron]

She did not sue them for spilling the coffee. She sued them because it was dangerously hot. There is a _huge_ distinction that you seem to be missing. Coffee that will cause 3rd degree burns in 2 to 7 seconds is way, way too hot to be serving at a fast food restaurant. McDonald's had been warned for 10 years that it was dangerously hot, and yet they chose to do nothing. McDonald's _had_ been negligent in this case, and they deserved to pay her medical bills. This was really all she was after...

[Atrocities]

I agree that you should not be aloud to sue over your own supidity, however in this instance, it is a commonly known and often performed practice of people, especially people who drive cars. McDonalds new that this could happen and did nothing. Therefore they assumed the major portion of the risk.

In contrast, it is not socially accpetable, nor was it even conceivable that people would want to jump from parking garage to parking garage. In that case the garage is not at fault as they could not have concieved that any one would be so stupid.

[Atrocities]

Imperator Fyron said:
She did not sue them for spilling the coffee. She sued them because it was dangerously hot. There is a _huge_ distinction that you seem to be missing. Coffee that will cause 3rd degree burns in 2 to 7 seconds is way, way too hot to be serving at a fast food restaurant. McDonald's had been warned for 10 years that it was dangerously hot, and yet they chose to do nothing. McDonald's _had_ been negligent in this case, and they deserved to pay her medical bills. This was really all she was after...



Thank you Fyron. You explained it very well.

Now if she had dilibrately taken the top off and pured the coffee into her lap, knowing how hot it was, then yes I would have to say that she would have no case. And believe me people did that after this case was filed.

[luke_slovakian]

ok the boiling point in farenheite is 212*, so if the coffee is 180 that makes it hot But not burning hot. Mcdonalds should of not been because it was her fault. I mean i will carry a starbucks drink on a roller coaster with me:p. So i spilled some on me darn darn now ill sue. It is really stupid. And the 180* is maybe 5* hotter than normal coffee

[Atrocities]

Starbucks coffee is on average about 110 to 120. A hell of a lot less hot then hers. Luke read the link Fyron posted about this.

[Joachim]

Imperious_Leader said:
I thought it was crazy how could any rational person jump out of a perfectly good airplane and not accept that there was risk involved but they had to cover themselves just incase someone got killed or injured one wouldn't want the greving family to claim that the deceased didn't understand that dropping from 10,000 Ft could cause signifigant injury would one?




The fall is fine - stopping is the killer.... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

Sorry, had to inject some lame humour....

[Imperious_Leader]

I hope that we're all argueing nicely and that no one is getting all bent out of shape over this , I'm new here so I don't know anyone well enought to know if I'm going to far with this.So for now I will asume that we're all adults here and can freely exchange opinions without any hurt feelings.

That said...Imperator I don't belive I'm missing your point at all , when I said that the sevarity of the burn was irelavant I belive that I was addressing the point you are trying to make.....that in your opinion the coffee was too hot 'dangerously hot' to quote you.So may I ask how hot is coffee allowed to be,obviously you and others belive it should be less than 180F how about 170 F 160F perhapes how many seconds to cause a burn is acceptable? Unless you are buying iced coffee it is reasonable to expect that coffee is going to be hot.How far do you go with this do you legslate how hot coffee is allowed to be?Many psycologists belive that playing violent computer games is harmful to our mental health if asked I'm sure they could produce studies which demonstrate the truth of that.Since we're all here I must conclude that you disagree with them and that if you someday glass your home town you won't sue MM for turning you into a mass murderer.I usually drink capichino which is so hot they double cup it so you won't burn your hand by the time I get to work it's just right if they started making it colder I wouldn't buy it.One of the sites I visited mentioned that in surveys people overwhelming said they wanted their coffee to be hot.At the time of the incident the woman in question had almost no public suport.

AT you raised an interesting point that McDonalds should have been aware of the common practice of people drinking coffee in their cars....to you I would submit that the people who drink McDonalds coffee would have been equaly aware that their coffee was very hot...the way it should bein regards to the case of the garage I'm not fimilar with the case Was it a child or an adult?If it was a child then I'm sure their lawyer will argue that they should have had an expectation that some child might be attracted to their roof....nonsense of course and if it was an adult I hope he had his helmet on and was carrying his sign.He absolutely deserved what he got:)IMO

Therein lies the problem opinions are like elbows everyone's got one.So again I ask at what temp do you legslate that coffee must be.....what is a safe temp?Shall we stop at coffee or do we move on to the rest of the menu....I've never burned myself with their coffee but I have burned myself on their apple turnovers that filling really is hot,oh but wait it says that right on the packaging dosen't it.How hot should a turnover be?

If the woman was a normal inteligent person she knew that coffee was hot if she had had Mc Donalds coffee before she knew it was very hot , she had absolutely no expectation of safty McDonalds was not negligent in the least.... SHE WAS.

Imperator you said that all she really wanted was money for her medical bills...and that may have been true in the begining but when she sued it certainly wasn't...in fact it wasn't even just for medical bills and legal fees but rather it was for 1 million.....I know your going to argue that if they had just paid her in the first place it would have been much less and in fact they had settled other similar frivolus claims out of court,my answer to that is that it was more than time enough to take a stand.We can't all go through life wearing a helmet to keep from hurting ourselves.

The legal standard should be what can we reasonably expect I submit that we can reasonably expect coffe to be hot and that if we dump it on ourselves we can reasonably expect it to burn everything else is nonsense.

On a diffrent note AT I love your mod haven't played the regular game since I started playing yours.I read in someones post that the federation is way too strong I must really be doing something wrong...photon torps suck I might aswell get out and chuck rocks at them.....and if I glass my home town it's all your fault.:)

[Slick]

some approximate relative "hotness" scales for comparison:

the hottest shower or hot tub you have probably ever been in would be around 107 or so,

at around 140, you can briefly touch something but can't stay in contact without serious pain. significant contact can cause 1st degree burns. water at 140 will slightly steam at room temperature/pressure even though it is well below its boiling point

at 180, there is significant steaming, but no boiling yet. this will cause easily 1st or 2nd degree burns if liquid is spilled on the skin

at 212, water boils. this assumes 1 atmosphere of pressure; i.e. at sea level. water will boil at temps less than 212 at higher elevations. contact with boiling water obviously will lead to 2nd degree burns for minimal contact and 3rd degree burns for significant contact

at 1 atm of pressure, once water starts boiling, it will stay at 212 degrees no matter how much heat you put into it. adding heat to boiling water will just make it boil more violently. the steam comes off at 212 degrees as well. this is known as saturated boiling. the temperature of the container won't go over 212 until all the water boils away. There is a rare exception to this which is not normally encountered in everyday life, but you can actually get a pan/pot to exceed 212 if a large enough amount of heat is applied such that the entire surface becomes steam-blanketed. you can see this in small quantities when a drop of water "dances" on a hot griddle. you need at least several degrees above 212 before this will happen. what actually is happening is that the liquid water can't make contact with the griddle because the radiant heat is causing the bottom of the droplet to flash to steam with enough energy to keep the droplet suspended.

there are several stages of boiling water: subcooled nucleate boiling, saturated nucleate boiling, film boiling, and others, but let's not get into a lecture on heat transfer and phase transformation of water.

[Atrocities]

Thanks Imperious_Leader http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Tort reform is needed in this country yes. As for the mod, I am glad that your enjoying it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif over 1500 downloads in four months is a testimate to its appeal. I just hope I can make it even better over the next few months.

[luke_slovakian]

At starbucks coffee in my opinion is cool if not cold. Even the"hot" one. Anyways i'm out of this. This is old news:p

[Fyron]

Yep, you missed the point. Here is an especially relevant quote:


In refusing to grant a new trial in the case, Judge Robert Scott called McDonald's behavior “callous.” Moreover, “the day after the verdict, the news media documented that coffee at the McDonald's in Albuquerque [where Liebeck was burned] is now sold at 158 degrees. This will cause third-degree burns in about 60 seconds, rather than in two to seven seconds [so that], the margin of safety has been increased as a direct consequence of this verdict.” Id.

Hmm... third degree burns in 2 seconds, or third degree burns in 60. I don't see how you can make a case the McDonald's was not at fault for serving coffee that was way too hot. This is especially dangerous when a large portion of it gets sold to people in vehicles... Again, the case was _never_ about spilling coffee, or being stupid, or anything like that. It was about McDonald's serving coffee that was way too hot, hence very dangerous. It is exactly the same as if the toy included in a Happy Meal was a razor blade. It is unnecessarily dangerous. Lawsuits are often the only recourse that a consumer has against a corporation that is selling products that unnecessarily endanger people. Buying coffee should not be an extremely dangerous affair, yet it was at the 180 degree threshhold. At the new 158 degree level, spilling some of the coffee on yourself will only result in minor burns, rather than those that require hospitalization. Purchasing fast food should not result in hospitalization.

Where did legislation come into this? McDonald's voluntarily lowered the temperature of their coffee. There was no law passed or court mandate requiring them to do so.

Get a thermometer and measure the temperature of that coffee you buy. I bet it won't be close to 180 degrees...


Imperator you said that all she really wanted was money for her medical bills...and that may have been true in the begining but when she sued it certainly wasn't...in fact it wasn't even just for medical bills and legal fees but rather it was for 1 million.....

Not true:


Despite these extensive injuries, she offered to settle with McDonald’s for $20,000. However, McDonald’s refused to settle.

She did not want one million dollars, just $20,000 to cover her medical bills.

McDonald's was selling coffee many degrees hotter than other restaraunts, without informing them that it was extremely hot. Many people had been harmed as a result of this, yet McDonald's did nothing. Something had to happen, lest their negligence cause harm to more people.


I know your going to argue that if they had just paid her in the first place it would have been much less and in fact they had settled other similar frivolus claims out of court

As stated above, legal action is all that consumers have to take against companies selling unnecessarily dangerous products. There was nothing frivolous about this lawsuit. McDonald's was negligent in their service, either in serving coffee that was far too hot in the first place or in failing to inform customers that it was as hot as it was.


The legal standard should be what can we reasonably expect I submit that we can reasonably expect coffe to be hot and that if we dump it on ourselves we can reasonably expect it to burn everything else is nonsense.

Causing 3rd degree burns in 2 seconds is most assuredly not part of a resonable assumption that hot coffee is hot. It would be reasonable to expect minor burns and scalding, but not reasonable to expect hospitalization and skin therapy. There is a world of difference.

Once again, this case is not a valid example of a frivolous lawsuit. It was a perfectly legitimate, even necessary, lawsuit.

[Imperious_Leader]

Thanks for the comparisons Slick ,at home I only drink instant coffee which means bringing water to a boil and pouring it....so my coffee at home is aprox 22 degrees hoter than McDonalds...hmmm can you sue your self http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

AT I know I said this at the other forum but I'll say it again here I really only bought the game because of your mod and I'm sure I'm not the only one....for the bussiness your bringing in you deserve at least a beta test seat without having to compeat for it....hope the powers that be see this.....ok it's now 3:10 am my time got to go to bed ....this is almost as addictive as the game....hay wait the game is addictive could I sue....Ok Ok I'll give it a rest....I love a good debate once in a while....wait a sec thats kind of addactive too Ok I'm going to need all your real names and addresses so my lawer can contact you all.

[Fyron]

You could not drink any liquid at 212 degrees. Your body would violently try to expel it. At best, you would get 3rd degree burns in your mouth and throat...

[narf poit chez BOOM]

There's a difference - You know how hot the coffee you make is.

[luke_slovakian]

WOW i just of an idea that would make me a millionare....sell steam coffee no hot or boiling water. Just hotter steam that has the same taste and effects of water:p.

[Phoenix-D]

Imperious_Leader said:
Thanks for the comparisons Slick ,at home I only drink instant coffee which means bringing water to a boil and pouring it....so my coffee at home is aprox 22 degrees hoter than McDonalds...hmmm can you sue your self http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif




Not when you drink it its not. Else you wouldn't have much of a TOUNGE left.

Third degree burns on the inside of your mouth = no taste buds, severely damaged teeth, and probably a tounge and gums that bleed on and off for the rest of your life.

The severity of the burn is relevent. Say I sell you a car. Now, normal cars are have 0-60 times measured in the seconds. This hot rod has a 0-60 time measured in *centiseconds*.

I don't bother telling you this, and when you test drive it the slightest touch sends the car slamming forward into a wall.

Sure, the car performs like a normal car, just much faster. However its STILL my fault because you had no reason to belive the damn thing would do that!

Same here. She public admitted that doing what she did with the cofee was stupid. However the fact that the coffee was that hot made it worse, in that she didn't have any time to fix the mistake and the damage was much worse than it should have been.

[Imperious_Leader]

Ok I just can't get enough .....who needs sleep.

Imperator if your quote about McDonalds lowering their coffee'stemperature is from the same article you linked tgo then I belive that it said that this was just this one McDonalds and was still not the corperate position.

Forgive me but the temperature of their coffee and them giving rasor blades in their happy meals isn't even close to being the same thing there would be universal agreement that razor blades are dangerous there is not universal agreement that coffee should be 158 degrees or anyother number.

As for a reasonable expectation of first degree burns or scalding as aposed to third degree burns ....come on if she thought she was going to spill the coffee on her crotch she wouldn't have put it there.If she could prove that she had never had their coffee before I might be slightly swayed but what kind of warning do you need before you open it right against your crotch it already says on it caution hot or something to that effect WARNING DO NOT OPEN AGAINST YOUR CROTCH

All joking aside your actually a really good debater....you have swayed me .....well maybe just a little.Food for thought...no coffee please I'm giving it up.

[Sivran]

The difference between 212 and 180 is also 32 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

And all I have to say is this:
I agree with Fyron. Therefore, it must be true.

[Imperious_Leader]

Phoenix-D I can see where your coming from....wow your all really good debaters I know when I'm licked.....if your all this good at debating I hate to see how good you all are at the game.....I'm doomed.

[Imperious_Leader]

Wow even my math is no good at 3:30am is there someone I can sue about that lol....well if you and Fyron agree I must then truely be wrong what was I thinking.....perhapes some sleep will help.

[Sivran]

Spilling coffee that is not at such a dangerous temperature is, as Fyron pointed out, no big deal. You stain your pants, you yell, you go on with life. So while you know that you just might spill it, you have a reasonable expectation that if you do you won't be badly burned.

It's not about whether she thought she was going to spill it, or if the thought even occured to her that she *might* spill it. It is not reasonable to expect that spilling coffee on yourself would cause burns severe enough to warrant hospitalization.

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

That wasn't the only time McDonalds got sued lately by some stupid.

A couple of idiots sued the Big M a while ago for.....

making them fat.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

And they would be perfectly in the right...If most food only made you a little fat if lot's of it were eaten.

A society is run on general expectations.

[Fyron]

Imperious_Leader said:
Imperator if your quote about McDonalds lowering their coffee'stemperature is from the same article you linked tgo then I belive that it said that this was just this one McDonalds and was still not the corperate position.

True. Presumably the rest of them did something after the whole affair. Not to mention the copy-cat idiots intentionally spilling it on themselves to make a quick million...


Forgive me but the temperature of their coffee and them giving rasor blades in their happy meals isn't even close to being the same thing there would be universal agreement that razor blades are dangerous there is not universal agreement that coffee should be 158 degrees or anyother number.

It was admittedly hyperbole. Let's replaces it with a toy car that has very sharp edges. When the kid picks it up to play with, it cuts his hands. Would McDonald's not be at fault for providing their customers with a needlessly dangerous toy? When I get a toy car, I don't expect it to cut me. When I buy coffee, I don't expect it to send me to the hospital as a result of a minor accident. Cause pain, yes. Maybe require some minor lotion or something, sure. Require hospitalization and extensive skin transplants, not to mention the horrible pain of *ahem* that area being horridly burnt and scarred, definitely not.

The exact temperature is not the issue. It can not possibly be known just how hot the coffee that the woman spilled was. If Slick's numbers are right, it could have been a bit hotter still... It is the fact that at 180 to 190 degrees (or hotter), the coffee was extremely dangerous. At around 160, it is still quite hot, but won't send you to the hospital over a spill.


As for a reasonable expectation of first degree burns or scalding as aposed to third degree burns ....

Yes, spilling coffee on yourself is stupid. Spilling hot coffee on yourself is quite stupid. However, it is not unreasonable to expect to not need to be hospitalized as a result. With coffee as hot as it was, there was nothing at all she could do. The damage was done extremely rapidly. If McDonald's had acted sooner to remedy the dangerous product, which they knew full well to be dangerous, there would not have been a law suit (from this lady, at any rate). But they did not. They were negligent.


If she could prove that she had never had their coffee before I might be slightly swayed but what kind of warning do you need before you open it right against your crotch it already says on it caution hot or something to that effect WARNING DO NOT OPEN AGAINST YOUR CROTCH

For the record, between the knees is a far cry from against your crotch... Again, it is probably not the smartest thing she could have done, but this is not what the lawsuit was about. It was about a needlessly dangerous product that the company knew to be dangerous but did nothing about.


well if you and Fyron agree I must then truely be wrong what was I thinking.....perhapes some sleep will help.

That was just a silly joke. Pay it no heed. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif


Sivran said:
The difference between 212 and 180 is also 32

I do believe that 180 - 158 = 22, not 32. So the differences are quite different. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif


wow your all really good debaters I know when I'm licked...

Practice makes perfect. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Mephisto]

Boys,
Atrocities brought the McD coffee case up already on January 2004. Growltigga had some very nice posts about the topic in this thread that sumarize it quite nicley:

Link (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showthreaded.php?Number=174725)

Long story short: As an European laywer my point of view is that you can only be sued if you are guilty of neglect. The amout payable can only be as high as the damage (no punitive damage, this is civil law, not criminal law) and of course every one has to stand in for his own neglect. So in the end if you spill anything, may it be hot or not, it is your own fault and no one else. You know that coffee is hot and that you are not supposed to spill it no matter how hot it is. You can't possibly argue that the women would be any more dilligent if you knew that the coffee was 180 instead of 165 degrees. She still knows that both are hot and that she shouldn't spill it. Just because it is more hot then you think doesn't change a thing about the fact that you spilled it, not McD.
Why should McD be required to tell you how hot your coffee is exactly (even if they could tell you the temerature when they serve it which the don't...)? Just don't spill hot stuff!

[narf poit chez BOOM]

If the issue is polarized, it comes down to 'Seller beware' or 'Buyer beware'. Modern capitalism is run on 'Seller beware', because otherwise you can be sold a pig in a poke.

Or so my elementary social studies course said, in one of those grades.

[Mephisto]

I would argue that, Narf. It is of course to some point a seller/buyer beware. But just how silly do you have to take your customers for? Common sence should be the border. Hot is hot, sharp is sharp and a dog or cat doesn't belong in the microwave. Even if the seller didn't told you that's just common knowledge. If someone fails to see this he shouldn't get money from the seller.

[Mephisto]

Imperator, the only influence the temperature has is the amount of time to make a first degree burn (sunlight burn) to a second degree (red skin) to a third degree (black skin/negrosis of tissue). The difference are mere seconds. The coffee served before and past the accident will both burn you.

[Aiken]

Mephisto said:
Long story short: As an European laywer my point of view is that you can only be sued if you are guilty of neglect.

Exactly. Our (russian) law has a good principle, mentioned in the regulative Protection of Consumers Law - "consumer knows or should know ...". This exclude any chances for moronic american "kill yourself and let your widow sue someone" suits.

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

Mephisto said:
Imperator, the only influence the temperature has is the amount of time to make a first degree burn (sunlight burn) to a second degree (red skin) to a third degree (black skin/negrosis of tissue). The difference are mere seconds. The coffee served before and past the accident will both burn you.



Not entirely right.

First degree burn = only the dead top layer of your skin. Can be sunburn, but can also be something else.
Second degree burn = also the underlying layer of tissue.
Third degree burn = a burn all the way down to the deepest flesh. If you have these you'll have to have a skin transplant, if not more - the category "third degree burns" covers everything from just underneath the second layer to burns where your bone itself is blackened and scorched.

[Imperious_Leader]

Good morning everyone I hope you all slept well and are ready to go at it again....I know I am http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Phoenix-D You are quite correct when you say that it would not still be 212F by the time I drank it......but it would be when I poured it and if I were to spill it on myself it would be more serious than coffee at a mere 180F since numerous people drink instant coffee at home it is not unreasonable to expect some coffee to be very hot.Upon some thought I have realized that the only place I have ever burned my toung with coffee is at home so mine is definatly hotter than McDonaslds.

As to your second point about the NORMAL car versus the hot rod I'm afraid that in your on words you have answered your own arguement......the motor vehical industry is highly regulated if I am buying a car from you I have a reasonable expectation of how it will preform ie that it will be a NORMAL car , there is an accepted norm that I can judge it against.....you would be liable...lol and yes I would sue you.There is no accepted norm for coffee or rather since McDonalds sells so much of the stuff I might well argue that they have set the norm.

You say that the fact that the coffee was hot made it worse well yes but what if there coffee was 169F and everyone elses was 150F 169 is less than 180 but more that 150F would you still argue that McDonalds coffee was too hot?

Sivran you are quite right the differance between 180 and 212 is 32 not 22.You say that spilling coffee on yourself that is not such a dangerous temperature is not a big deal I can easily argue that spilling a glass of water on myself is not as dangerous as spilling a cup of coffee that is 158F but what does that have to do with the price of coffee beans nothing it is not a question of how hot the coffee was but her negligance in spilling it .Lets say the coffee is a mild 158F which will cause a burn in what was it 60 sec or something....now I have my fresh McDonalds coffee driving down the freeway at 110 kmh and I spill the coffee on my well you know...I must decelerate and pull off the road to deal with the problem in the time it takes me to change lanes come to a full stop and pull the jeans off I have been burned by your much safer temperature .They knew I might be driving and would not nessarialy be able to pull over right away are they not still to blame and must they now lower the temperature again?

Fyron I realized that your razor blade coment was tounge in cheek however even your second example does not hold up cars with sharp edges would not pass the accepted norm test...the toy industry also has rules and regulations you would have a reasonable expectation that McDonalds would not give children toys which fall beneath the accepted norm....a norm which actually exists.Since there is no norm for coffee you have no such expectations but rather you know its hot and you shouldn't spill it.And if you have ever had McDonalds coffee you know its very hot which really does or atleast should set a norm for what you expect from their coffee.

The exact temperature is not the issue....how can you argue that the coffee was dangerously hot and say that the exact temperature was not the issue. The only to issues are either her negligance in spilling the coffee or McDonalds negligence in having coffee that is"TOO HOT" since you are arguing that it was not her negligance the only issue that remains is the temp of the coffee.....arguing that the temp of the coffee is not the issue is my position as I hold her compleatly responsible.
You said
"Yes, spilling coffee on yourself is stupid. Spilling hot coffee on yourself is quite stupid. However, it is not unreasonable to expect to not need to be hospitalized as a result. With coffee as hot as it was, there was nothing at all she could do. The damage was done extremely rapidly. If McDonald's had acted sooner to remedy the dangerous product, which they knew full well to be dangerous, there would not have been a law suit (from this lady, at any rate). But they did not. They were negligent."
How can you concider it to unreasonable to expect to be hospitilized by spilling very hot coffee on yourself?
The tests of McDonalds coffee after the insident aswell as there operating manual amply demonstrated that McDonalds coffee was and always had been very hot it would be very reasonable to expect to be seriously burned by it if you did not show proper caution.And again I will point out that their coffee is signifagantly cooler than the coffee that I make at home....I use an electric kettle if I spill the water which is boiling on myself would the company that made it be liable.....should they make it heat to some safer temp?If your response is that I would know how hot boiling water is ....well maybe I did back in school but certainly not now and even if I did remember what the temperature of boiling water was how many sec at what temp causes what deg burn that I certainly did not know....what I did know was common sense hot is hot don't pour water from kettle on self.

For the record the coffee was between her legs....prehapes it was I don't recall from the article but if it was between her knees and spilled on her crotch she must have really short legs....hmmm maybe its just that I have long legs.

That Sivran and agreeing obviously made me wrong was just a joke I realized....by 3am I was starting to get pretty silly myself.

Practice makes perfect ....I'm working on it.



http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif




The whole question boils[sorry for the repeated use of puns]down to wheather or not it is reasonable to expect to recieve third degree burns from a cup of coffee I say yes you say no.

[Renegade 13]

It's simple. You spill something on yourself, it's your own fault. Don't try to blame your own stupidity on someone else.

Hey, I got a promotion! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

Congrats, Sir.

I can imagine how it would happen..... it wouldn't open properly so she pulled on it a little harder or in some other way that made the cap fly off, she "started" as the term goes and her legs twitched, the coffee cup toppled and the coffee flew out of it and into her..... ehm..... *cough* guys there are people on this forum too young for that.

[Sivran]

in the time it takes me to change lanes come to a full stop and pull the jeans off I have been burned by your much safer temperature .



No, not unless your jeans are artificially heated. Sixty, even thirty seconds is a lot of time for heat to transfer away. The coffee, now with a much larger area for its heat to escape to, would cool before it could do anything serious. It would not remain at 160F for long enough to burn.

And I never mentioned the price of beans, nor did anyone else... Where the hell did that come from?

Let's play another analogy game. If I open up my computer monitor and stick my bare hands in it, I have a reasonable expectation that--gasp--I might get severely injured (or even killed) by the current running through it. Assuming I lived through it I would have no grounds for sueing anyone.

Coffee on the other hand is a different matter. Coffee is spilled every day, whether we like it or not. Coffee is expected to not cause serious injury, even if spilled. If it does, then either willfully or negligently, someone sold some needlessly dangerous stuff. Remember that this was not an isolated incident with McDonald's: they had been warned, multiple times, that their coffee was dangerously hot. So hot that if spilled, it would burn before cooling to the point where it wouldn't cause a problem.

Can we get back to the roof jumping now?

[kerensky]

Time to open another can of worms.....

I'm not sure if this made t to national levels, but at a local McD here in tidewater, a lady presumably got a chicken head in her chicken nuggets. The odd thing is that she was a dine-in costumer and didn't tell anyone til after she left the store. The only evidence that the head ever existed was a blurry photo, that looked like a rubber chicken, that was mailed to McD. McDonanlds said that they would pay settlments (don't remember how much) if only she would send them the head. She refused and teh whole thing boiled down to nothingness in less than a month.

Some people are just plain stupid...

[Mephisto]

Sivran said:
Coffee on the other hand is a different matter. Coffee is spilled every day, whether we like it or not. Coffee is expected to not cause serious injury, even if spilled.



Well, we here beyond the pond readily expect serious harm by spilling coffee over our body. That may explain our different points of view. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif
Now we can jump of the roof. Yiipeee! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[narf poit chez BOOM]

/me pushes Mephisto before he can jump. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Mephisto]

Never trust a mouse... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Caduceus]

Man, I'm just sorry I brought it up to begin with http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Spoo]

And let's not forget the girls that were sued for giving away cookies. http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=473840&page=1

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Deleted, because, after all, I don't know wether there are additional factors.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

bearing in mind that many people had been injured by the McDonalds coffee. The reason they kept it at 180 is that it was fractionally more profitable because it would stay saleable longer. They had done this a long time. It was cheaper for McDonalds to fight lawsuits in court than it was to chill the coffee. Horrendous, but justified on a business level.

It isn't on the same level as the now-infamous (brought by John Edwards) case where for want of a cheap drain cover a spa had badly mutilated several people. I just ate so I'm not gonna talk about it, but you can probably google it pretty easily.

In this roof jumping case- It wasn't the first time, so the city could be negligent. There's obviously a case that could be argued in court here, so I don't think the standard of frivolous lawsuit applies here. Although this is applied of by association- the main thrust is that the roof jumper and his family are not taking responsibility for his actions. Which to some extent they are not, though many minors undoubtedly engage in the activity. (The article does not make clear whether the injured jumper was a minor or not, and the pic is inconclusive)

But...75% of all bankruptcys are for medical reasons, and given the trends it's increasingly unlikely that insurance companies will cover something like this. I think it behooves the city to at least pay medical expenses and agree to combat the trend of roof jumping actively and passively.

Realistically, there does not seem to be much of a problem with frivolous lawsuits. Most lawsuits are filed by businesses (very few places track this, but those that do in the US indicate that business vs business comprise about 75% of all lawsuits) so personal lawsuits are not cramming the judicial system. Lawsuits which are actually frivolous tend to be thrown out. There is a wide perception of common place ludicrous lawsuits because these stories are often blown all out of proportion and lied about. Any that remotely fit the criteria are often picked up and distributed. For several years I believed in the McDonalds coffee canard- I was horrified when I learned the details of the case.

In my opinion, the whole idea is a stalking horse for deregulators.

But whatever.

[Begather]

Good morning everyone I hope you all slept well and are ready to go at it again....I know I am http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Phoenix-D You are quite correct when you say that it would not still be 212F by the time I drank it......but it would be when I poured it and if I were to spill it on myself it would be more serious than coffee at a mere 180F since numerous people drink instant coffee at home it is not unreasonable to expect some coffee to be very hot.Upon some thought I have realized that the only place I have ever burned my toung with coffee is at home so mine is definatly hotter than McDonaslds.

As to your second point about the NORMAL car versus the hot rod I'm afraid that in your on words you have answered your own arguement......the motor vehical industry is highly regulated if I am buying a car from you I have a reasonable expectation of how it will preform ie that it will be a NORMAL car , there is an accepted norm that I can judge it against.....you would be liable...lol and yes I would sue you.There is no accepted norm for coffee or rather since McDonalds sells so much of the stuff I might well argue that they have set the norm.

You say that the fact that the coffee was hot made it worse well yes but what if there coffee was 169F and everyone elses was 150F 169 is less than 180 but more that 150F would you still argue that McDonalds coffee was too hot?

Sivran you are quite right the differance between 180 and 212 is 32 not 22.You say that spilling coffee on yourself that is not such a dangerous temperature is not a big deal I can easily argue that spilling a glass of water on myself is not as dangerous as spilling a cup of coffee that is 158F but what does that have to do with the price of coffee beans nothing it is not a question of how hot the coffee was but her negligance in spilling it .Lets say the coffee is a mild 158F which will cause a burn in what was it 60 sec or something....now I have my fresh McDonalds coffee driving down the freeway at 110 kmh and I spill the coffee on my well you know...I must decelerate and pull off the road to deal with the problem in the time it takes me to change lanes come to a full stop and pull the jeans off I have been burned by your much safer temperature .They knew I might be driving and would not nessarialy be able to pull over right away are they not still to blame and must they now lower the temperature again?

Fyron I realized that your razor blade coment was tounge in cheek however even your second example does not hold up cars with sharp edges would not pass the accepted norm test...the toy industry also has rules and regulations you would have a reasonable expectation that McDonalds would not give children toys which fall beneath the accepted norm....a norm which actually exists.Since there is no norm for coffee you have no such expectations but rather you know its hot and you shouldn't spill it.And if you have ever had McDonalds coffee you know its very hot which really does or atleast should set a norm for what you expect from their coffee.

The exact temperature is not the issue....how can you argue that the coffee was dangerously hot and say that the exact temperature was not the issue. The only to issues are either her negligance in spilling the coffee or McDonalds negligence in having coffee that is"TOO HOT" since you are arguing that it was not her negligance the only issue that remains is the temp of the coffee.....arguing that the temp of the coffee is not the issue is my position as I hold her compleatly responsible.
You said
"Yes, spilling coffee on yourself is stupid. Spilling hot coffee on yourself is quite stupid. However, it is not unreasonable to expect to not need to be hospitalized as a result. With coffee as hot as it was, there was nothing at all she could do. The damage was done extremely rapidly. If McDonald's had acted sooner to remedy the dangerous product, which they knew full well to be dangerous, there would not have been a law suit (from this lady, at any rate). But they did not. They were negligent."
How can you concider it to unreasonable to expect to be hospitilized by spilling very hot coffee on yourself?
The tests of McDonalds coffee after the insident aswell as there operating manual amply demonstrated that McDonalds coffee was and always had been very hot it would be very reasonable to expect to be seriously burned by it if you did not show proper caution.And again I will point out that their coffee is signifagantly cooler than the coffee that I make at home....I use an electric kettle (http://www.wordsiseek.com/best-electric-kettle-reviews/) ( Stainless Steel Cordless Electric Kettle ) if I spill the water which is boiling on myself would the company that made it be liable.....should they make it heat to some safer temp?If your response is that I would know how hot boiling water is ....well maybe I did back in school but certainly not now and even if I did remember what the temperature of boiling water was how many sec at what temp causes what deg burn that I certainly did not know....what I did know was common sense hot is hot don't pour water from kettle on self.

For the record the coffee was between her legs....prehapes it was I don't recall from the article but if it was between her knees and spilled on her crotch she must have really short legs....hmmm maybe its just that I have long legs.

That Sivran and agreeing obviously made me wrong was just a joke I realized....by 3am I was starting to get pretty silly myself.

Practice makes perfect ....I'm working on it.



http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif




The whole question boils[sorry for the repeated use of puns]down to wheather or not it is reasonable to expect to recieve third degree burns from a cup of coffee I say yes you say no.

Which electric kettle is in your use currently? I need to know because i want to buy one for me because my last kettle got damaged and non repairable. Can you suggest me the best place or website to buy an electric kettle?