Faerun - started

[Boron]

Current IP :
IP: 24.90.74.183
Port: 6999


Aku and me are starting a Faerun game, Aku will be the host.

It will be a special Faerun, we play it with 5 Mods:
-Zen's Scales 1.2
-Zen's Pretenders 2.2
-Zen's Spells 1.8
-Saber Cherry's Unit Rebalance 751
-Zen's Item Mod 1.0

Settings:
-Map:Faerun large
-75% Magic Sites
-VH Research
-9 Independent Strength
-Victory Condition - Default
-Scoregraphs off
-Rich World

At least until turn 50 24h quickhost, we want to keep it on a fast pace until lategame http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

Participating so far are:

Pasha - Arco
Manuk - Man
Klatu - Tien Chi
CUnknown - Vanheim
Hubris - Pangenea
Soapy Frog - Jotunheim
YC - Mictlan
Aku - Abysia
Oversway - Atlantis
Knudsen - Ulm
Dragonfire - Machaka
Reverend Zombie - C'tis
Dimaz - Caelum
Dian - Pythium
Boron - Ryleh
Ribbon Blue - Marignon
CyborgMoses - Ermor

Please claim your nations in this thread, we will start the game as soon as we have 17 players http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[PashaDawg]

Cool. Chris = CUnknown, yes?

[Aku]

correct pasha

[Oversway]

I'll take Atlantis... *gulp*

[Boron]

Oversway said:
I'll take Atlantis... *gulp*


Cool http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.
Atlantis will be definitely interesting in this game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Manuk]

It´s a nice looking map. 17 players will be great.
And for this game i tried the mods against AI. Cherry´s I found that boosts some of the independants. By example, all barbarians gave berserk, and I think that´s fair, otherwise I would almost never consider recruiting one of those. It will be more fun that the regular kind of game.

[GriffinOfBuerrig]

Hola, if there are no problems with that: i am in with Rlyeh!

[YellowCactus]

Hey Cunknown,
I'm pressed for free time these days and won't be able to consistently play every turn. Would you consider sharing Vanheim with me? You as Lord Commander, and myself as advisor and diplomat? I would of-course drop out as Pythium.
-Yc

[Knudsen]

I'll have a go with Ulm

[Soapyfrog]

Looking forward to this one!

[Huzurdaddi]

Why don't I learn? The last game on this map was *insane*.

I'll take Marignon.

[Catquiet]

I'll take Ermor.

Could someone post a link to Saber Cherry's Unit Rebalance 751 , I can't find that mod.

[Boron]

Catquiet said:
Could someone post a link to Saber Cherry's Unit Rebalance 751 , I can't find that mod.


Here http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif : http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=333673&page=0&view=collap sed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1

Updated the players list.
Welcome GriffinofBuerig,Knudsen,Huzurdaddi and Catquiet. Soon we have a full house http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[DragonFire11]

Assuming that I have not been banned for incompetence, Dragonfire would like to play Abysia. Thanks!

[Reverend Zombie]

I'd like to join with C'tis, please.

The latest version of Zen's pretender mod on his web page (http://www.techno-mage.com/~zen/) appears to be 2.00. Where can we find 2.01?

[Boron]

DragonFire11 said:
Assuming that I have not been banned for incompetence, Dragonfire would like to play Abysia. Thanks!


Oops sorry i realized now that i forgot to include you in the initial list. I shouldn't always post at 2+ a.m. (like now again http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif).
Aku has already claimed Abysia, i put you on the list with Machaka, the nation you claimed before. If you want still to change feel free to take one of the other still available nations:).


Reverend Zombie said:
The latest version of Zen's pretender mod on his web page (http://www.techno-mage.com/~zen/) appears to be 2.00. Where can we find 2.01?


Aku sent me 2.01. Atm he is unfortunately not online but when i meet him again (hopefully tomorrow) i will post where to get 2.01 if Aku has not posted the info before already.

[Aku]

I got zens pretender mod 2.01 from this site.

http://www.dominions-2.org/

after clicking downloads is this link

http://www.dominions-2.org/files.htm

go to zen conceptual balance series

[DragonFire11]

OK, my bad. I stick wih Machaka, b/c after all, that sounds just like one of my favorite mexican food dishes. If any of ya'll come to Phoenix, be sure to stop by La Pinata. I've been eating there since I was about 3 months old, and man, their machaca tortilla plate is simply the best.

[The Panther]

Very interesting that, so far, nobody has picked 2 of the 3 strongest nations: Caelum and Pythium! Maybe the mods are the reason? Or maybe because they both start in the middle of the map and the edges are a far better place to be.

Plus, after all the micro-management pain on our current Faerun game, I see that Soapyfrog and Hazurdaddi are both joining this one? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif Some people never learn...

[Shmonk]

I have a question about the preferences that will be used - VH Research and 9 indie strength. It seems with those settings, the expansion at the beginning will be very slow, correct? Like what, maybe every 3 turns a new province is taken, or even longer?

I guess I'm still having a hard time getting used to indie strength of 9, at least in my SP. Makes for a slow start. But maybe that's what this game will be about. Slow start, more national armies maybe (because of VH research), and it will be a while before summons can happen.

[Boron]

shmonk said:
I have a question about the preferences that will be used - VH Research and 9 indie strength. It seems with those settings, the expansion at the beginning will be very slow, correct? Like what, maybe every 3 turns a new province is taken, or even longer?

I guess I'm still having a hard time getting used to indie strength of 9, at least in my SP. Makes for a slow start. But maybe that's what this game will be about. Slow start, more national armies maybe (because of VH research), and it will be a while before summons can happen.


A SC-Pretender e.g. can probably still take 1 province a turn from turn 2-5 on depending on the chassis.
This SC-Pretender will be expensive though and with the new scales etc. it is not as an easy choice as in vanilla anymore http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
But the initial Expansion will be a bit slower of course.
The various Mods and settings shall exactly do what you describe: Give more incentives to build national armies http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[thejeff]

Boron said:
A SC-Pretender e.g. can probably still take 1 province a turn from turn 2-5 on depending on the chassis.
This SC-Pretender will be expensive though and with the new scales etc. it is not as an easy choice as in vanilla anymore http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif



I haven't mastered SC design yet, obviously. Can you give an example of a SC-Pretender design that can reliably take Strength 9 indies with little to no gear or buffs? Or how you'd get enough gear and/or buffs in the first few turns with VH research?

It's not that I don't believe you. I just want to know how to pull it off. My best attempts at SC-pretenders have waited for Alteration-3 and were still only semi-successful. (Immortals took more risks, but weren't really any more successful)

[YellowCactus]

There are no SC's before turn 10 with VH Research that 'Reliably' take ANY Indi province alone.

However....be very carful about your scales on this one. A VQ with good dominions and 5 paths to 3-4 levels each could fly around picking off 'weak' indies in her dominion. Dragons are good with these mods too. (Red dragon F9 for example) I'd recommend a flying pretender if your going SC.

Best of luck fellows. 17 factions will be BRUTAL!

-yc

[Huzurdaddi]

The Panther said:
Very interesting that, so far, nobody has picked 2 of the 3 strongest nations: Caelum and Pythium! Maybe the mods are the reason? Or maybe because they both start in the middle of the map and the edges are a far better place to be.




Pythium gets kind of Borked in this mod. Thurges more expensive, communicants more expensive, troops slightly more expensive. It's pretty watered down.

As for Caelum it's beyond comprehension but they were improved in this version. At least their primary troop: the archer.

A game with this mod and no hoarding restrictions is going to be interesting that is for sure.

I *really* hope that graphs will be off. Graphs being on simply makes the game more titled to hoarders.

[Alneyan]

I would say a rainbow Pretender (of sorts) with Alteration 3 can take any province with independents before turn 10. Alteration 2 may be used to do it earlier, and some nations might have trouble reaching Alteration 3 before turn 10.

I know my Pretender in Song of the Blade (VH research, independents 9) had no trouble clearing up heavy infantry provinces with Alteration 2, and the knights fell easily with Alteration 3 (I did not risk attacking the knights with Alteration 2, but intelligence reports it would have worked quite well). My Pretender would have suffered against anything flying however, like most Pretenders relying on buffs.

The big problem is the feasibility of getting a nice Pretender: Song of the Blade did not use the Scales mod, making it easier to get more points (without crippling your nation in the process). With the Scales mod, I don't think you can get an SC, a Rainbow mage, high-end magic *and* decent scales.

[Huzurdaddi]

Heck, I've never played Caelum in a PBEM game. I'll take it instead of Marignon.

I *know* marignon is amazing. I've tried them out before. Let's see if Caelum lives up to the hype.

And Panther. You are right I never learn. Actually where I work is *very* quite right now, I've never seen a company this "quiet" so I have some time at this exact moment to play a game. However this may change in a couple of months. We'll see. Let's hope we can resolve this game very quickly!

[Shmonk]

So, is VH research the next one up from Normal/Standard research, or is that Difficult Research and VH is the highest of the Research settings?

And thanks for the info. That's what I was wondering, because it doesn't seem to me that even with an SC Pretender, it will be difficult/risky trying to take a Province a turn in the first 4 or 5 turns, what with no spells other that the default and no equipment. But I can see maybe 2 or 3 provinces by turn 10, or 1 every 3 turns. Even with Alteration 2, which would take what, at least 3 turns to get to, even with the pretender researching?

[The Panther]

My dragon (as Machaka) in the Mad-Orania game took level 9 indies all by himself from Turns 2-7. He lost an eye on Turn 2 and lost the second eye on Turn 7 after taking 6 level 9 provinces. Being blinded, he then retired to help with research. I was really pissed that he didn't get tamer afflictions, like a chest wound or battle fright. Admittedly, I did not attack anything dangerous (meaning heavy cavs or knights). It also took a lot of micro management and testing to position him in the optimum square (which depended on the type of enemy indie) and just how many of his long-range breaths he needed to cast before attacking the rear archers (which mostly depended on the Action Points of the enemy infantry). I also built him a bear claw talisman on the first turn (easy for Machaka to do on that particular map), which helped by increasing his archery range.

Then, starting on turn 4, my prophet army began to take provinces easily. But that was helped by the fact that the each player started with a bunch of pre-built sites plus the income from 5 inital provinces, thus kick-starting my non-dragon battles immensely.

On turn 13, I had a lot more provinces (maybe 21 or so) than anyone else but eventually died because Abysia had a built-in 30% blood bonus site, which terribly unbalanced the game.

I must admit I am wondering how Huzurdaddi can hope for the game to be resolved quickly without a victory condition. The only way I know how to do this is to be eliminated from the game!

[Alneyan]

Panther's way requires using a physical Pretender, but works very well, if you feel like taking a few chances. It works fine from turn 1 onwards, and you can perhaps add a couple of magic items to make your Pretender even more fearsome. The biggest advantage of such Pretenders is their very low price, but they will likely be weaker Pretenders in the long run.

The rainbow/SC combination is another way of taking provinces, and starts around turn 5 or so (depending on how quickly you can reach Alteration 2, with your Pretender having at least 20 research points). Even Alteration 2 allows you to do some damage, with spells like Stoneskin, Mirror Image, Personal Luck and the like. Some Pretenders will likely have no trouble taking weak provinces with this setup. Alteration 3 allows to breathe more easily, and can be reached around turn 8: then, most provinces should fall easily to your Pretender. Once you have done your basic research, a province per turn can be taken with your Pretender.

Other setups not relying on a SC Pretender can work well: for example, in another independent 9/Very Hard research game, I went with a bless strategy and started taking provinces on turn 3, if memory serves. This specific example involved Arcoscephale, a Fire-9 Moloch, and a holy-4 Priestess Prophet: ten Heart Companions did very well against most provinces, backed with Fanatism and the Moloch Fire Darts (a great spell when cast by a Fire-9 mage). Weak provinces fell without a loss, while tough provinces (knights) could still be taken with only two or three companions killed. This setup is fairly cheap, and allows for decent scales; it does not give much else besides fast expansion, however.

And you can still do something with regular troops, I think, but I am no expert on national units (I mostly use projectile units these days, with some infantry once in a while, and cavalry once in a blue moon).

Very hard research is the hardest research: researching level X under very hard research is equivalent to researching level X+2 in standard research. For the sake of completeness, level X in very hard research is equivalent to level X+1 in hard research, or level X-1 in easy research. So, for 60 research points, you can go from:
- 0 to 1 in very hard research
- 1 to 2 in hard research
- 2 to 3 in standard research
- 3 to 4 in easy research

[The Panther]

shmonk said:
So, is VH research the next one up from Normal/Standard research, or is that Difficult Research and VH is the highest of the Research settings?

And thanks for the info. That's what I was wondering, because it doesn't seem to me that even with an SC Pretender, it will be difficult/risky trying to take a Province a turn in the first 4 or 5 turns, what with no spells other that the default and no equipment. But I can see maybe 2 or 3 provinces by turn 10, or 1 every 3 turns. Even with Alteration 2, which would take what, at least 3 turns to get to, even with the pretender researching?



VH research is the hardest setting. Alt 2 takes quite a while to reach, even for the high-research nations.

A Fire 9 phoenix can take the easier level 9 indies (meaning militia/LI/HI/archers) with only evocation 1. It may take him 2 tries, though. Once you also get Alt-2, the phoenix can easily take one province per turn, except for a few troublesome types like the big vine tree thingies (whatever they are called).

Also, any of the dragons can take the easier level 9 indies with no research, but he risks taking afflictions and perhaps even dying.

The Vampire Queen can also take provinces without research if you are willing to try a couple of times and have her scripted correctly.

With a power bless effect and sacred troops, you can expect your prophet to begin to take level 9 indies on turn 4, especially with the recruitable balance mods. But this is obviously nation dependent. Pretty much any nation (no matter the pretender) ought to be taking L9 indies from turn 5 on by using an army, probably one province every two turns (with reinforcements/searching in between).

[Huzurdaddi]

The Panther said:
My dragon (as Machaka) in the Mad-Orania game took level 9 indies all by himself from Turns 2-7. He lost an eye on Turn 2 and lost the second eye on Turn 7 after taking 6 level 9 provinces. Being blinded, he then retired to help with research. I was really pissed that he didn't get tamer afflictions, like a chest wound or battle fright. Admittedly, I did not attack anything dangerous (meaning heavy cavs or knights).



That's pretty much how it goes for dragons. They last between 4-12 battles or so. But in the end they get a couple of afflictions that doom them. The chest wound, btw, is a death sentence for a dragon as now a battle with just HI can become death if they do not route quickly. In the faerun game ( which had no hoarding thank god! ) my dragon lasted only 6 battles which irked the crud out of me, since it is on the lower part of the range.



Then, starting on turn 4, my prophet army began to take provinces easily. But that was helped by the fact that the each player started with a bunch of pre-built sites plus the income from 5 inital provinces, thus kick-starting my non-dragon battles immensely.




It highly nation dependent. Certianly nations with good sacred troops can start early if they have a good bless. Turn 4 is difficult for many nations, I find turn 6 to be the sweet spot for many nations.



I must admit I am wondering how Huzurdaddi can hope for the game to be resolved quickly without a victory condition. The only way I know how to do this is to be eliminated from the game




Well I was going to try the marignon strategy that I talked about in the other thread but now I am going for the elimination strategy! It requires *far* less micromanagement!

Anyway the marignon strategy (tm) is far less powerful when hoarding is allowed. But Soapy and I are sure that this game will go to the nation who is most able to hide in the background and hoard like nuts.

But I'm a belligerent *** so I'm not going to do that http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif It will be my undoing.

BTW: Ulm is *s00pa* in this mod. Wowzie. As is Atlantis.

[Jurri]

The Panther said:
On turn 13, I had a lot more provinces (maybe 21 or so) than anyone else but eventually died because Abysia had a built-in 30% blood bonus site, which terribly unbalanced the game.

'Ey Pantha, it wasn't like that! I didn't use the blood30 site almost at all before you were down (a couple HfHs at most); What I did was build soul contracts (yes, at base 160 slaves each) with my blood-cyclops and construction-site and use the resulting devil army to pound you. The bloodsite entered the equation in force a bit later. Also mostly you fell due to diplomacy, I'm afraid to say. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Other than that, I'm with Panther in that you can certainly start taking indies with a suitable pretender from turn 2 onwards on indies 9 - turn 1, even, in certain cases. Also, assassins are a very potent means of expansion for the nations that have them, especially on high indie settings.

[Saber Cherry]

Huzurdaddi said:

The Panther said:
Very interesting that, so far, nobody has picked 2 of the 3 strongest nations: Caelum and Pythium! Maybe the mods are the reason? Or maybe because they both start in the middle of the map and the edges are a far better place to be.




Pythium gets kind of Borked in this mod. Thurges more expensive, communicants more expensive, troops slightly more expensive. It's pretty watered down.

As for Caelum it's beyond comprehension but they were improved in this version. At least their primary troop: the archer.



Pythium did get slightly toned down, but they're still very potent with cheap communicants and cheap, powerful, sacred, holy mages. Also, assassins were improved and cheapened, so they may now be of use to Pythium. I think that people just don't using things that are "nerfed" even if they are still powerful http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif. For example, I was trying to convince someone to buy a Celeron-based laptop (personally, I only use AMD, but notebook computers are one area where Intel still has some advantages). This person had a very tight budget, of around $600... and he was never, ever, ever going to use the computer for anything other than Word, Outlook Express, and Internet Explorer (so he really didn't need anything above a Pentium 100). But he would not buy the Celeron because "he had heard from people that Celeron is worse than Pentium," which is true, but made him pay $100 more on the processor and compromise on things like screen size and RAM, which would have been much more important to him in practice... just to avoid something that was "nerfed" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

As for Caelum - the troop lineup was toned down, IMO, in that magical weapons and flight no longer came "free." Their scouts became more expensive too. The only units that dropped in price were:
Archers, who are essentially unarmored and unshielded and therefore die easily to anything (even soulless or 4g slingers) and also get -1 morale;
and Wingless, who are capitol-only and thus compete with Temple Guards for resources, and are hard to use with other Caelian units because they can't fly.
I'm fairly certain that Caelum was reduced in power, not boosted; considering that the gold cost of the Caelian Archer was dropped by 10% while indy unarmored archers were dropped by 25%, even that unit was weakened in the context of the mod. The only area where Caelum was empowered was in food, as the mod's 60% supply increase is very handy to Caelum (and Jotunheim and Ryleh, for that matter).

Both nations seem (to me) to still be stronger than average, and I think only the "nerf factor" prevents people from jumping on them like in unmodded games http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif But I'll be watching closely to see if I'm wrong...

[The Panther]

Jurri said:
Also mostly you fell due to diplomacy, I'm afraid to say. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif




Heh heh, I almost forgot about that, but I do recall now. I was sorely pressed for time in RL and had entered too many games during the winter. I was very sorry I had entered that particular game (especially after I realized that Machaka is hopeless on that map) and was wanting to get out of it. So, because I hate to quit games, I instead opted for the time-honored 'elimination strategy' and declared war on the entire world. I even attacked the two AI nations next to me to get them to invade also.

It was definitely a blast fighing everybody at once, especially after Cohen gave me nearly 1000 gems right before he died. I surprised the heck out of Ulm with my mass summoning when he thought me mostly dead and gone. The only thing I regreted was that I killed only 80 or so Abysian devils before I died. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

You did have a very nice victory in that game, Jurri, using the (heavily nerfed) Soul Contract strategy. I was indeed impressed with the power of the soul contracts after seeing it used against me.

[Jurri]

And good thing too that Soul Contracts were nerfed, for it would have been silly beyond words otherwise.

But so as not to hijack the thread for a trip down the memory lane (the game was great fun until the nosedive of an end, though), aren't you guys really not going to remove clams and such? Pretty hardcore!

Hey, the next time you (=someone) feel like hosting a massive game, why not the world war scenario with some sensible victory condition? I always wanted to try that one.

[PashaDawg]

So Panther & Jurri - - - you're not joining this game? Just talking about it?

[Huzurdaddi]

Saber Cherry said:
The only units that dropped in price were:
Archers, who are essentially unarmored and unshielded and therefore die easily to anything (even soulless or 4g slingers) and also get -1 morale;




The reason why I said ( perhaps unfairly, we will have to see ) that Caelum was buffed is that the troops I make by far the most of with Caelum is the Archer. Once my research gets moderatly high I then rely upon the glorious casters much more than any troops. We'll see how it goes though.

As for Pythium's cheap communicants IIRC they cost 60 gold in the mod. That's actually quite expensive. A 1S caster should cost slightly less than 60 gold if it has no special abilities and communicants are in many ways less useful than a 1S caster. I still love communion though. It can be frighteningly powerful.

I thought that at 1st you had made communicants 40 gold and thurges 180 gold which I think would have been a decent deal for Pythium. I don't know where I got that crazy thought from though.



Also, assassins were improved and cheapened, so they may now be of use to Pythium.




Oh? Were the stats on Assassins improved? Well now, that could make a decent sized difference! Perhaps I should go back to Marignon ( I generally like them they have all of the toys, although their more expensive crossbowmen are a little bit of a pain ).

One question: Did you Nerf pangaea's White Centaurs over your 1st version? A quick glance still shows the light lance ( did they have that in the stock game ) and decent stats? I thought that many people had been ( rightly ) overrun by these guys in your 1st test game. I don't expect them to be as big of a factor in a Faerun game ( although as his nearest neighbor I may be eating those words! ).

[The Panther]

PashaDawg said:
So Panther & Jurri - - - you're not joining this game? Just talking about it?



Um, no, I cannot think of a game format I would like to play less than this one, except for the same settings with no mods...

Plus, I am not getting in any more games until after my trip to France. And maybe Dom 3 will be out by then and Dom 2 is history.

[PashaDawg]

When do we expect Dom 3 to be out?

[Boron]

Soapy asked me if we want to play with an anti-hoard mod. Me + Aku didn't plan to hoard in this game (it is hard to believe i know http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif) so we didn't think on the issue cause we thought without wish hoarding is not such a big deal. Now giving it a closer thought it is though: A clamhoarder could cast Arcane Nexus and get insane amounts of further gems and then just spam hordes of mech men or banelord thugs etc.. Though not as nasty as hoarding + wishing still quite nasty.
I would personally like to play with an anti-hoard mod also.

So please everybody post what you want and as soon as we have a simple majority (9 of 17 players) we will play with this setup.

P.S.: Huzurdaddi i gave you atm the claim for both caelum and marignon cause i guess you would rather play caelum if we chose to play without an anti-hoard mod and marignon vice versa so that you can decide then http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Edit: Aku suggested that we could disable the forge of ancients. Imho this would be an interesting idea.
Without forge we could leave blood stones as they are and would only need to slightly balance clams and fever fetishes.

So the above poll is obsolete and we start a new one:
Question 1:
Disable Forge of Ancients?
Question 2:
Which Hoard items should be nerfed?

[Aku]

You cant hoard blood or death gems so my vote will just be on clams and fetishes. Wish is disabled in zens spell mod so we cant wish for blood or gems so I think the only concern is clams and fetishes. It also raised vampire lords to 77 slaves to cast.

Faerun is going to be a long game so if we nerf clams and fetishes to lets say 20w10s for a clam and 10f10n for a fetish they would still be feasible to use for a very long term strat but not the only strat to use. Or some other combination of gems to make them whatever someone can think better.

So my vote is:

2/1 and 2/2

I also vote we disable forge of the ancients since that is just a hoarding tool anyway.

[Boron]

Edit:
New vote with the better "poll" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

1. Disable Forge
2. With disabled Forge Bloodstones are hard to hoard.
So only clams+fetishes need to be balanced.
I would suggest clams cost 20w now and fever fetishes 5n and 20f.
The strange fever fetish cost is because first i planned 10n and 5f as cost but this way machaka could do them very easy but no other nation. This would be unfair but with 5n and 20f machaka has to get lucky also with the random and still needs 1 firebooster. So they would still be an investment but would have a longer paybacktime also.

[Boron]

thejeff said:

Boron said:
A SC-Pretender e.g. can probably still take 1 province a turn from turn 2-5 on depending on the chassis.
This SC-Pretender will be expensive though and with the new scales etc. it is not as an easy choice as in vanilla anymore http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif



I haven't mastered SC design yet, obviously. Can you give an example of a SC-Pretender design that can reliably take Strength 9 indies with little to no gear or buffs? Or how you'd get enough gear and/or buffs in the first few turns with VH research?

It's not that I don't believe you. I just want to know how to pull it off. My best attempts at SC-pretenders have waited for Alteration-3 and were still only semi-successful. (Immortals took more risks, but weren't really any more successful)


VQ works always, it is just expensive.
But with alteration 2 you can send her out quite save and with alteration 3 she beats almost any indies.
Alteration 2 should be able to reach even with vh research on turn 4-6,depending on nation.
Jurri's Dracolich is probably the best SC-Pretender-type with Zens mod and should work even better.
With all the other pretenders it is more dangerous since they are not immortal but there is always a not small risk that the pretender dies or at least gets crappy afflictions when fighting.

[Huzurdaddi]

Jurri's Dracolich is probably the best SC-Pretender-type with Zens mod and should work even better.




Crazy powerful. I have to say.

As for your hoarding limitations I have to say that I ( personally ) think that the limits you are specifying are insufficient, but I'll leave it up to your judgement. Although from the numbers you are throwing around I think I may want to go back to Marignon http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I wanted to go with Caelum since:
1) Archers, which I think are the backbone of their early game have been improved
2) I *had* to play a nation which could hoard since hoarding was allowed.

I'll go back to the more tame Marignon if you are nerfing clams and such.

[Huzurdaddi]

Oh and what about graphs?

I liked having to actually scout in the last Faerun game. I think I had a good 60 scouts at one point ( not hoarding but actually scouting! ).

[PashaDawg]

I am fine with Boron's suggestions with anti-hording.

[PashaDawg]

I know that there were various changes to the Faerun map a while back (e.g., making the colors darker). Where is the best place to get the right version of the map?

[Aku]

Here you go Pasha

http://www.dominions-2.org/files.htm

Also graphs should be off, I think Boron forgot to write that in the settings.

[Saber Cherry]

Huzurdaddi said:
As for Pythium's cheap communicants IIRC they cost 60 gold in the mod. That's actually quite expensive. A 1S caster should cost slightly less than 60 gold if it has no special abilities and communicants are in many ways less useful than a 1S caster. I still love communion though. It can be frighteningly powerful.



That's true; I may have been unfair, and should have left Communicants alone while just expensivizing the mages. 60 gold for a non-casting communicant with no magical or normal leadership is much higher than Illwinter's guidelines. However... I'd still buy them like crazy at that price http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Since, after all, Astral-1 mages are super-rare (1 in 4 vaetti hags; 1 in 8 80g sages; etc) and are far, far better than any other level-1 mage (other than blood). Communicants are almost as valuable as Slave Matrices, which are quite pricey.


Were the stats on Assassins improved? Well now, that could make a decent sized difference! Perhaps I should go back to Marignon ( I generally like them they have all of the toys, although their more expensive crossbowmen are a little bit of a pain ).



No stat changes, but they do gain additional armor (Armguards), and a third weapon (throwing knives) that may even allow them to take out indy commanders safely. So by default they are more powerful, though fully-equipped, they are about the same. The price also dropped by 5g. Slayers, OTOH, did not get the extra equipment or price drop, but they did get stat boosts.


One question: Did you Nerf pangaea's White Centaurs over your 1st version? A quick glance still shows the light lance ( did they have that in the stock game ) and decent stats? I thought that many people had been ( rightly ) overrun by these guys in your 1st test game. I don't expect them to be as big of a factor in a Faerun game ( although as his nearest neighbor I may be eating those words! ).



Yes, they are substantially nerfed... and yes, they were used very effectively in the test game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif They keep the light lance, but the defense was reduced and price increased, and thus should be about right now. Black Centaurs, OTOH, get an entangling magical Vine Spear, which is cool... but Carrion Woods can probably never afford very many of them.

[Jurri]

@Pasha: This is certainly far too large a map for me. Soapy and Huzzur, I salute you for your stamina. Iron men walk amongst us.

Bloodstones can be hoarded by Abysia rather effectively, btw. You need but an earth warlock and you're set. There's even a feedback-loop before you start arguing definitions, since every bloodstone yields 10 gold per turn if alchemized and thus pays the upkeep of an apprentice http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif... Come to think of it, using the gems to make dwarven hammers is also a cumulative proposition since every hammer can be used to save 5 slaves or more per turn http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif. Such foolery aside, 15 slaves and 2 earth gems to get 1 earth gem a turn? Dang cheap, if you have the mages (like Abysia does) and ask me.

[Boron]

Jurri said:
Bloodstones can be hoarded by Abysia rather effectively, btw. You need but an earth warlock and you're set. There's even a feedback-loop before you start arguing definitions, since every bloodstone yields 10 gold per turn if alchemized and thus pays the upkeep of an apprentice http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif... Come to think of it, using the gems to make dwarven hammers is also a cumulative proposition since every hammer can be used to save 5 slaves or more per turn http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif. Such foolery aside, 15 slaves and 2 earth gems to get 1 earth gem a turn? Dang cheap, if you have the mages (like Abysia does) and ask me.


Yeah but since we plan to play without forge of the ancients it is hard to get bloodstone forgers.
Abysia and Marignon DF are the only 2 nations who can get them.
But only every 8th Goetic master/Warlock has an earth pick.
Warlocks are capitol only, Goetic masters are difficult to get in masses with forced turmoil 1 for marignon DF.

I slightly nerfed them now too though.

[Boron]

Current Beta of my balanced hoarding mod:

Clam:
3W needed to forge = 20w or 15w with hammer

Fever Fetish:
3F 1N needed to forge = 20f 5n or 15f 3n with hammer

Blood Stone:
4B 1E needed to forge = 40b 5e or 30b 3e with hammer

Soul Contract:
5B 3F needed to forge = 80b 20f or 60b 15f with hammer

Reasoning:
Soul Contract:
6B would be extremely expensive with wish disabled. Payback time would be 160:7 = 23 turns or 17 turns with a dwarfen hammer. A dwarfen hammer is not so easy to get for Abysia + Marigon(earth random, blood stone and earth boots) and extremeley difficult to get for Mictlan, Mictlan needs to trade them or put earth on their god.
This way the Soul contract is still an option but balanced.
Also note that a scouting enemy will see your devils and then do a few flames/blizzards on that province likely.

Blood Stone:
First i wanted to make them earth 10 but then Abysia+Marignon , the only 2 blood nations that can forge bloodstones, would need to empower a guy to earth 2 first in order to forge bloodstones.

Fever Fetish:
First i wanted to make them 10n 5f but this way machaka would be the only nation which could forge them easily and they could massproduce them.

With 20f 5n they can be produced by all the classic fever fetish forgers but need 1-2 fire boosters.
In the long run they are still an investment to consider but they are imho balanced now also.

Clam:
Switched to W3 cause disabling hoarding for caelum, mictlan and jotunheim seemed unfair to me. For 20w clams can still be considered but the payback is 40 or 30 turns with hammer.

This mod is only a suggestion though, if the majority wants no hoarding at all this is easy doable too:

10.3 #constlevel <level>
Level of construction required to forge this item. This
level can be 0,2,4,6,8 or 12 for items that cannot be
forged. To disable a item, set this value to 12.


So i can simply disable them if wanted http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

Just continue telling me your opinions since we have some time now anyways waiting for the last 3 players to join http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Oversway]

With 75 sites on a 400+ province map. I wonder if these nerfs arn't too much... its not like people arn't going to have a ton of gems anyways.

Then again, Atlantis is a good clamhoarding nation so maybe I'm just being selfish http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Boron]

Oversway said:

With 75 sites on a 400+ province map. I wonder if these nerfs arn't too much... its not like people arn't going to have a ton of gems anyways.



Yeah those gems are imho already more then enough http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[mnoracle]

I'd like to take Caelum if possible.

[Boron]

mnoracle said:
I'd like to take Caelum if possible.


Sure. Welcome http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Boron]

Cool we need only 1 more player.
Only still unclaimed nation is pythium.

[Huzurdaddi]

You never have enough gems. Those nerfs look good. They crush my plan of drowning the world in a sea of soul contracts so that's good.



Soapy and Huzzur, I salute you for your stamina. Iron men walk amongst us.




Oh I'm sure it will drive me insane.

[Saber Cherry]

Boron said:
Reasoning:
Soul Contract:
6B would be extremely expensive with wish disabled. Payback time would be 160:7 = 23 turns or 17 turns with a dwarfen hammer. A dwarfen hammer is not so easy to get for Abysia + Marigon(earth random, blood stone and earth boots) and extremeley difficult to get for Mictlan, Mictlan needs to trade them or put earth on their god.
This way the Soul contract is still an option but balanced.
Also note that a scouting enemy will see your devils and then do a few flames/blizzards on that province likely.



Flames / Blizzards can be ignored by the contracted unit, if properly equipped. 1-H weapon, Burning Pearl, Fire Plate, Lucky Coin, Ring of Frost cost 25 gems and protect the carrier from lesser horrors, seeking arrows, ranged spells, and so forth. Abysians only need a Ring of Frost, since high HP and armor should protect them from seeking arrows.

However, 3 fire puts Soul Contracts totally out of reach for Jotunheim, Vanheim, and BF Ulm, simply due to mage paths. I'm not saying that 6B 2F is necessarily better... but 5B 3F in a very large, 75% magic site game seems to restrict Soul Contracts to only Abysia / Marignon / Mictlan, without making the price substantially higher, giving those nations a major long-term advantage.


Blood Stone:
First i wanted to make them earth 10 but then Abysia+Marignon , the only 2 blood nations that can forge bloodstones, would need to empower a guy to earth 2 first in order to forge bloodstones.



Vanheim (IMO) is the primary bloodstone nation, as it can not only forge bloodstones, but strongly benefits from them. Dwarves with a blood random would have a hard time forging high-blood, low-earth stones...

The changes to Clams and Fetishes seem good. Did you consider making Clams 2 paths, so that nobody can make them with normal mages and start hoarding them from turn 2? 3W 1N makes clamming harder by restricting the mages that can do it, and involves 3 discrete gem types.

I'm not participating in the game, just commenting as an interested observer. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif But I will mention one more thing... have you given any thought to nerfing the Soulstone of the Wolves? Since... I think it's bugged. Isn't it supposed to cast Howl only once?

[Oversway]

BTW: Ulm is *s00pa* in this mod. Wowzie. As is Atlantis.




Doing some test games, I don't yet see a big boost for Atlantis, at least not compared to other nations...want to clue me in?

[Soapyfrog]

I would deep-six soul contracts entirely if I were you. Just my opinion. Vampire Lords could be a problem too, you never know.

Actually I would deep-six all gem generators, but I guess in that case you'd have to do something about troll kings, sea kings etc.

But that's just my opinion, the nerfs you presented will probably work out OK, at least until the game goes crazy around turn 70 or so http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Huzurdaddi]

Oversway said:


BTW: Ulm is *s00pa* in this mod. Wowzie. As is Atlantis.




Doing some test games, I don't yet see a big boost for Atlantis, at least not compared to other nations...want to clue me in?



Well seeing as I am your neighbor ... no http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Aww heck ok. IIRC their basic infantry became quite a bit cheaper. Combined with the supply boost this made taking indeps quite easy. At least it did in my trial runs. Maybe it won't work out like that in the real game.

[Oversway]

Yeah the shamblers did drop in cost. I almost never used them, now perhaps I will. But I don't think atlantis is unbalanced, although I hope I'm wrong http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Catquiet]

Soapyfrog said:
I would deep-six soul contracts entirely if I were you. Just my opinion. Vampire Lords could be a problem too, you never know.

Actually I would deep-six all gem generators, but I guess in that case you'd have to do something about troll kings, sea kings etc.




I vote for no gem generators also. Give Devils, Vampire Lords, and Vampires a hefty gold cost so players can't afford the upkeep for large armies of them.

[Boron]

Catquiet said:
Give Devils, Vampire Lords, and Vampires a hefty gold cost so players can't afford the upkeep for large armies of them.


This is a bit difficult though cause then we would need to do this with all the other stuff also. If we would make Devils cost upkeep we would need to do the same for Mechanical Men, Tartarians, Vine Ogres etc. etc. . And we would need to do it with SCs/Thugs as Banelords,Devils,Tartarians and Uniques also.

[The Panther]

Actually, the best solution is for all troops to cost upkeep and then to raise the income levels to compensate.

Either that or have no troops (other than commanders) to cost upkeep.

[Catquiet]

Boron said:
This is a bit difficult though cause then we would need to do this with all the other stuff also. If we would make Devils cost upkeep we would need to do the same for Mechanical Men, Tartarians, Vine Ogres etc. etc. . And we would need to do it with SCs/Thugs as Banelords,Devils,Tartarians and Uniques also.



Mechanical Men, ect cost gems and then get used up in battle. With Soul Contracts you can invest some blood slaves and then pump out one devil per turn for the rest of the game. Vampire Lords can pump out flying immortals.

[Reverend Zombie]

I would like to see how the game plays with the mods but no additional nerfs.

There have not been too many games (if any) played with this particular configuration of mods. It would be good to see how they affect things without adding too many additional variables to the mix.

[Oversway]

Yeah! Considering how heavily modded this game is and the extreme settings, who knows how it will play out?

[Saber Cherry]

It will play out with lots of clams and devils http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Boron]

Oversway said:

Yeah! Considering how heavily modded this game is and the extreme settings, who knows how it will play out?


Your just saying that cause you are Atlantis http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif.

[Manuk]

I will play out with lots of militiamen

[CUnknown]

One option is my crazy-psycho 9 province start idea from that game a while back. It can jump-start things, giving armies a head-start on gem-generators. Of course, the gem-generators will catch up, it's not much of a head start, but it's something.

Another idea along the same lines is to greatly lower indy strength, like to 4-5. Then people will be up in each other's faces faster, making investment in gem generators more risky.

Also, given the huge gem incomes everyone will have anyway (just from the 75% sites thing), gem generators are diluted somewhat and are of less value. i.e. It's better to take a province rather than build a clam under these settings. Of course, everyone will just be doing both, but hey.

[Soapyfrog]

I agree with Saber Cherry.

Boron, if you think about it, if you just get rid of soul contracts completely (and the game WILL be better for it!) you just need to worry about Vampire Lords generating armies of vampires. Giving vampires and VLs upkeep costs is actually somewhat thematic, and it will help control the problem of the mile-wide-mass 'o vamps on defence that will surley crop up as the game goes into the later stages.

I think they are (apart form Soul Contracts) really the only other super abusable free summons. No one is really worried about enormous armies of wolves, for example.

As for a 9 prov-start and "diluting" hoarding with 75% magic sites, this is just a slight delay of the problem.

However I will not twist anyone's arm on the subject.

[Huzurdaddi]

I don't really think that Vampires are super abusable. They generate a steady stream of revenue but it is very small ( ~ 2 blood slaves per turn ). This gives them a ROI of something like 30 turns which is in line with other gem producers.

CUnknown the reason why gem producers are good even with 75% sites is that this is an FFA. If there were only 2 sides going at it then generators would not be a huge deal. However generators allow the player who does not get into conflict to gain far more than those that go for conflict ( unless there is a very quick resolution, which really does not happen that quickly ).

I have no problem with gem producers in small tight games with 2 players or heck with 3. But as the number of players increases the desire to hoard increases rather dramatically.

We'll see what happens. I think that Boron's 1st crack at stopping Hoarding was decent. But I can live with Hoarding at full power ... I suppose. I also have not checked out Zen's latest spell mod but I bet he does not nerf battlefield spells anywhere nearly as much as they were nerfed in the last Faerun game. So that will be interesting. Warthful Skies are here again!

[dian]

Hi, guys. Can i play with Pythium? If possible, i'll do it.

[PashaDawg]

Welcome, Dian!

[Catquiet]

Huzurdaddi said:
I don't really think that Vampires are super abusable. They generate a steady stream of revenue but it is very small ( ~ 2 blood slaves per turn ). This gives them a ROI of something like 30 turns which is in line with other gem producers.




Vampire Lords can also summon one vampire(flying, immortal, ethereal, stealthy, life drain) each turn, that's the abusable part. So... no gem-generators, no soul contracts, and add upkeep to Vampires and Vampire Lords.

[Reverend Zombie]

Catquiet said:
Vampire Lords can also summon one vampire(flying, immortal, ethereal, stealthy, life drain) each turn, that's the abusable part. So... no gem-generators, no soul contracts, and add upkeep to Vampires and Vampire Lords.



So far I see two votes against additional nerfing (Oversway + me).

Others seem to be in favor of something, but there is no agreement so far that I can see on exactly what form the additional nerfs should take.

I think we have 17 players now.

Time to put it to a formal vote?

[Saber Cherry]

Most undead should never, ever need upkeep. However, Vampires - and possibly Liches / Demiliches - are different. Vampires like to live in the lap of luxury, and have all the normal human desires... moreso even than humans.

How do these numbers sound?


Scheme 1: Low costs, solely to prevent mega-abuse.

Vampire: 25g
Vampire Count: 75g (Cheap, as BF Ulm's specialty)
Vampire Lord: 180g


Scheme 2: Costs in rough accordance with unit power.

Vampire: 30g
Vampire Count: 100g (Cheap, as BF Ulm's specialty)
Vampire Lord: 280g


Scheme 3: High costs to reflect the exorbitant lifestyle and tastes of Vampires.

Vampire: 40g
Vampire Count: 140g (Cheap, as BF Ulm's specialty)
Vampire Lord: 380g

[PashaDawg]

Vote! Vote!

[Boron]

Welcome Dian.

So now lets definitely vote.

First just a simple vote for one of the 3 choices:

-No additional nerfs
-"Balanced" Hoard items
-extremely nerfed Hoard items

If the majority votes into one direction then we will do this direction, if it doesn't and we don't get a simple 50% majority for something then Aku the host decides.

So happy voting http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Huzurdaddi]

Catquiet said:

Huzurdaddi said:
I don't really think that Vampires are super abusable. They generate a steady stream of revenue but it is very small ( ~ 2 blood slaves per turn ). This gives them a ROI of something like 30 turns which is in line with other gem producers.




Vampire Lords can also summon one vampire(flying, immortal, ethereal, stealthy, life drain) each turn, that's the abusable part. So... no gem-generators, no soul contracts, and add upkeep to Vampires and Vampire Lords.



It's the summon allies which I was exactly addressing. The summoning of a vampire ally is ~= to 2 maybe 3 blood per turn. That makes it a 25-30 turn ROI which is more than fine. Using vampires lords to summon allies is a VERY sub-optimal way to use them and gives returns far below any other gem generator even post nerf.

It is *not* a strategy that I would use.

However I *would* normally summon VL's as they are excellent summons. Putting maintainace on them would pretty much crush that.

I'm for nerfing Soul Contracts as they are too efficient ( and I think Boron's Changes are fine, in my mod I put them at 160 blood but that was due to the game being played in 2.15 where stealthy units could not be killed by horrors in 2.16 this is fixed ). However I'm not for maintainace on vampire lords. They are one of the few mass producable leaders that blood has. Blood needs them badly. Zen's mod already nerfs them rather badly.

[Boron]

According Vampires we need no nerf at all imo:
Zens Spell mod raised the price for them to 77 Blood.
And with Zen's Spell mod there is no wish.

So even Abysia should have big troubles getting a higher blood income then 500 blood per turn until very lategame.

And in very lategame you can do anti-blood strats like plague etc. .

[Huzurdaddi]

I vote that your 1st attempt at balance was fine:



Current Beta of my balanced hoarding mod:

Clam:
3W needed to forge = 20w or 15w with hammer

Fever Fetish:
3F 1N needed to forge = 20f 5n or 15f 3n with hammer

Blood Stone:
4B 1E needed to forge = 40b 5e or 30b 3e with hammer

Soul Contract:
5B 3F needed to forge = 80b 20f or 60b 15f with hammer




I would personally punish clams a little more since they have no draw back ( unlike contracts and fetishes ) like by adding 1N to them. But to each his own.

[Aku]

I agree also. It will be rough to do in game but doable.

[Catquiet]

Huzurdaddi said:
It's the summon allies which I was exactly addressing. The summoning of a vampire ally is ~= to 2 maybe 3 blood per turn. That makes it a 25-30 turn ROI which is more than fine. Using vampires lords to summon allies is a VERY sub-optimal way to use them and gives returns far below any other gem generator even post nerf.

It is *not* a strategy that I would use.

However I *would* normally summon VL's as they are excellent summons. Putting maintainace on them would pretty much crush that.

However I'm not for maintainace on vampire lords. They are one of the few mass producable leaders that blood has. Blood needs them badly. Zen's mod already nerfs them rather badly.



Would you object to a 30 gold cost(2 upkeep) for Vampires, and 0 upkeep for Vampire Lords?

[Manuk]

OK nerf them a little, but let it be clear.

[CUnknown]

I'm not convinced we should nerf anything. If we nerf clams to 3w, only Atlantis has an easy time using them. Before we nerf anything, we should consider the very minor changes I've suggested:

1) 9-prov start (I wish you could go higher)
2) 4-5 strength indies

I wish you could make items cost more, but not require a higher magic level to produce. Then I'd be all in favor of having clams cost 20 gems, as long as they still only took a 2-w caster to make.

[Huzurdaddi]

Catquiet said:
Would you object to a 30 gold cost(2 upkeep) for Vampires, and 0 upkeep for Vampire Lords?



Yes quite strenuously.

Actually to be clear: I would object if they were the only summon handled in this fashion. If all summons were to have upkeep I would have no problem what so ever.

[Boron]

Huzurdaddi said:
Actually to be clear: I would object if they were the only summon handled in this fashion. If all summons were to have upkeep I would have no problem what so ever.



Damn this is difficult http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.
If we give all Summons Gold Upkeep then probably nobody builds national armies any longer in lategame once again http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif.

I personally don't think vampires are so dangerous though they are much weaker then devils and can be killed quickly with various mass desctruction spells like wither bones, holy pyre or wrathful skies.

[Reverend Zombie]

My vote: no nerfs whatsoever! (Still!) I'm also against the 9 province start.

I think everyone should limit themselves to the options Boron outlined and quit proposing alternatives at this point: with everyone proposing their own nerf ideas, the pro-nerf vote is going to be very fractured.

[Catquiet]

Huzurdaddi said:

Catquiet said:
Would you object to a 30 gold cost(2 upkeep) for Vampires, and 0 upkeep for Vampire Lords?



Yes quite strenuously.

Actually to be clear: I would object if they were the only summon handled in this fashion. If all summons were to have upkeep I would have no problem what so ever.




Do you also object to clams being nerfed unless all magic items are nerfed? This a 17 player FFA, we don't need to balance summons or magic items, we need to balance hoarding.
All hoard items should be nerfed, that includes clams, fever fetishes, blood stones, soul contracts, and vampires.

Anyway some summons already have upkeep : trolls, sea trolls, and black hawks IIRC

[Catquiet]

Boron said:
I personally don't think vampires are so dangerous though they are much weaker then devils and can be killed quickly with various mass desctruction spells like wither bones, holy pyre or wrathful skies.



Yes, but you have to fight them over and over again, they are immortal and they can fly across the map allowing them to protect a large area.

[Aku]

The map is very large...vampires when they die go to the capital and this isnt a wrap around map so it will take quite some time to get back to the front line. Vampire lords got put to 77 blood in zens mod...I dont see a problem.

[Manuk]

I vote for no nerf. Clams at 3w, it will be atlantis only.

[Knudsen]

Reverend Zombie said:
My vote: no nerfs whatsoever! (Still!) I'm also against the 9 province start.

I think everyone should limit themselves to the options Boron outlined and quit proposing alternatives at this point: with everyone proposing their own nerf ideas, the pro-nerf vote is going to be very fractured.



I agree. Less talk more action

[CUnknown]

I vote no nerf on anything. I would like to see indies lowered, however.

[Aku]

Yeah screw the nerfs. If someone tries to hardcore hoard they will get killed by the expansionist anyway with these settings. Boron the reason we put 75 sites was to balance hoarding and expansionism. We dont need a hoarding nerf mod. We have 17 players already, hopefully we start this by tomorrow night with uploading our pretenders.

[PashaDawg]

I vote for no nerfs. Let's just enjoy the 3 mods.

[Resok]

My vote is also for no nerfs... let's see how it plays out.

Resok

[Catquiet]

Looks like the no nerf vote is going to win. Let's get the game started.

[dian]

What's about commander's renaming? Will it be allowed?

[Oversway]

I'll vote no nerf http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

HoF will be 15 slots?

[Aku]

yeah HoF 15 slots

It looks like everyone wants no nerf mods so after doctors appointment I will check back to see if any changes in the thread then start the game up for uploading pretenders.

[Aku]

SERVER IS UP FOR PRETENDER UPLOADING!!!

IP: 24.90.74.183
Port: 6999

Post if any problems connecting. I reboot the computer I am using the server for once a day so if it is down more than five minutes then there is a problem. Otherwise I am rebooting. Enjoy.

[Oversway]

I cannot connect. I can't ping 24.90.74.183. However, I am checking to see if its a firewall issue on my side.

[Boron]

Oversway said:

I cannot connect. I can't ping 24.90.74.183. However, I am checking to see if its a firewall issue on my side.


Is probably your firewall. I was able to connect just fine http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

[Oversway]

Stupid office firewall. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/mad.gif I'll have to connect from home.

[PashaDawg]

Ok. Will work on my pretender tonight.

[Manuk]

Pretender uploaded. Nobody has to press start game until everyone has uploaded pretenders and until Aku gives the word.

[Oversway]

Atlantis pretender is on the server

[PashaDawg]

Arco on server.

[Reverend Zombie]

C'tis is up!

[Resok]

Can't connect to the server... "Connection Failed".

Also I can't ping the IP address... status of the server?

Resok

[Resok]

err... there it goes... uploading Pangaea pretender now.

Resok

[Dimaz]

Hi guys
I've had trouble registering on the board, so I asked mnoracle to hold a place for me. So I will be playing Caelum instead of him. And Caelum pretender is already uploaded.

[Boron]

Dimaz said:
Hi guys
I've had trouble registering on the board, so I asked mnoracle to hold a place for me. So I will be playing Caelum instead of him. And Caelum pretender is already uploaded.


Hi Dimaz http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif. Welcome and good luck and have fun with Caelum http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Soapyfrog]

To be clear: We are not using any anti-hoarding mod whatsoever?

It says in the first post we are but I can't find the download.

[Boron]

Soapyfrog said:
To be clear: We are not using any anti-hoarding mod whatsoever?

It says in the first post we are but I can't find the download.


Corrected it now http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.
No we are not using one now since the majority voted for no additional mods (much to my dislike http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/evil.gif).

Seems only you, myself, Huzurdaddi and Catquiet were voting for nerfs to hoard items while about 7 or 8 guys voted for no nerfs.

[dian]

Pythium's pretender is uploaded

[Soapyfrog]

Jotunheim is uploaded!

[DragonFire11]

Machaka is a go!

[Boron]

Only Ryleh Aka Griffin is missing http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

[Boron]

Griffin please upload your God that we can start the game.

[PashaDawg]

I just sent him a PM. Hopefully, that will get his attention.

[Boron]

Seems Griffin lost interest http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/fear.gif
We are seeking for a replacement now.
So Ryleh is open to the public again.

[Knudsen]

Too bad about the delay. But I hope it takes a few days to find a replacement as I'm away until early sunday (CET) and would hate to miss the first turns.

[PashaDawg]

Griffin has not responded to my PM to him. Hopefully, he is ok. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[Boron]

Knudsen said:
Too bad about the delay. But I hope it takes a few days to find a replacement as I'm away until early sunday (CET) and would hate to miss the first turns.


It will take until sunday most likely to find a new Ryleh anyways http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

[YellowCactus]

Boron.
I'll take Ryleh. Do me a favor though. Go ahead and make the god and scales.

-Something like.... order 3, sloth 3, death 3, cold 3, magic 3.

-The underwater archmage/sage with 4 death magic and 2-3 of everything else. No astral.

-Five or six dominion is fine.

-Feel free to modify these scales and god for max. efficiency.

Upload the pretender and start the game. I'll be home tonight to play my turn. You'll have to send me the game and pretender files I think.

-Yc

[Boron]

Cool that you are in YC http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

Knudsen wrote he is away until early Sunday so there is plenty of time to design your god yourself http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.
Because i have unfortunately no experience at all with Ryleh (QM crushed me in 5 turns in our Atlantis-Ryleh fun Urgaia-Blitz http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/evil.gif /threads/images/Graemlins/Envy.gif).
And not playing the god you designed yourself is crazy imo.
You will hate me then because i did another design as you had in mind and i don't want to risk that http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif.

[YellowCactus]

Okay. Looking at Dominions now.....
I've never played Ryleh either..hehe
-Yc

[Catquiet]

YellowCactus said:
Boron.

-Something like.... order 3, sloth 3, death 3, cold 3, magic 3.

-Yc



Keep in mind that the mods make the sloth and death scales slightly more unpleasant. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[YellowCactus]

Right right.
Well. I'm just in for the fun of it anyway. Will probably stale a few turns in any event.
-Yc

[Manuk]

Don´t stale, please

[YellowCactus]

OH, don't you worry Manuk, this will be a fun one. All my favorite Dominions players are here and will keep you entertained. If only Cainehill were playing too...
-Yc

[Aku]

THE GAME IS UP!!!!

All pretenders were uploaded finally lol so now the game is started.

It has no host timer on it since its the first turn...want to make sure everyone knows its up. After everyone does the first turn I will set it to 24 hour quickhost.

Enjoy!

[PashaDawg]

Cool! Arco's turn is done.

[Huzurdaddi]

Looks like we are playing on a Rich settings. That was not part of the 1st post.

Wish I had known that when I was selecting nations. I suppose it's ok though.

[Huzurdaddi]

Wow. After playing around with rich settings wish I was playing Atlantis, or R'lyegh, or Caelum ( although they have a "problem" that you don't see too often, they can't make leaders fast enough at the start ).

[Aku]

Sorry about that, the rich world should of been part of first post but boron and i intended for the game to be rich world for more national troops.

[Boron]

Sorry about forgetting the rich world.
At least it is not as bad as if i would have forgotten to state that we play with vh research.
Since the effect of rich world is for every nation the same because it is just a simple multiplier (gold+resources x1.5) it luckily doesn't do much damage imho http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif.

Now happy killing,slaughtering and murdering at all http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/mad.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Catquiet]

Boron said:

Since the effect of rich world is for every nation the same because it is just a simple multiplier (gold+resources x1.5) it luckily doesn't do much damage imho http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif.




Except to the Ermorian utopia, where we have abandoned capitalist greed and recycle old troops instead of stripping the land of its precious resources. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif

[Huzurdaddi]

Boron said:
Sorry about forgetting the rich world.
At least it is not as bad as if i would have forgotten to state that we play with vh research.
Since the effect of rich world is for every nation the same because it is just a simple multiplier (gold+resources x1.5) it luckily doesn't do much damage imho http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif.

Now happy killing,slaughtering and murdering at all http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/mad.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif



That's not correct. It screws blood nations somewhat badly, actually. Blood hunting is a method of converting gold into a type of gem ( blood ) which is then converted into ( generally ) some type of troop.

This changes the ratios.

Oh and let me add Abysia to the list of nations I wish I was playing. Yes I know that they are a blood nation and thus somewhat screwed. However SC's mod really buffs them ( a total suprize to me ) and with the Rich settings they can take total advanatge of this buffing. HC provinces are no match for them by turn 3 ( regardless of pretender, you can take a Rainbow and still be crushing HC on turn 3, yokies).

[Jurri]

I always thought blood nations benefited immensely from a rich setting. Consider: you need less provinces producing gold to support the same amount of blood hunters, therefore you can field more of them. (Generally, a province used for blood hunting gives much more benefit than one used for gold, right? Maybe not under Cherry mod, though.)

[Huzurdaddi]

Jurri,

In short you are wrong. As I explained blood hunting converts gold into gems. Now it costs more gold to buy a blood slave.

The only way to blood hunt efficiently in a rich world is the Mictlan way, ie: 100% taxes with heavy patrolling. However most nations are not setup, ie: do not have access to cheap patrollers, to patrol efficiently. Blood hunting with 0% taxes is much less effecient on a rich setting. The end result is that I would not have played a blood nation had I known that we were going to play a rich map.

On and one more note wrt. to Boron's note that it affects all nations equally it doesn't. The nations I noted above have a number of troops with a high gold/resource ratio. This allows them to take advanatge of the rich settings right away. There may be other nations that can do it as well I have not gone through them all.

[Huzurdaddi]

Zen is releasing his new mods today, including the item mod. I don't know what's in them, but we could restart the game with these mods.

[CUnknown]

Huz-

Just deal with it, it doesn't hurt you that badly. Besides, we're playing with all the factions anyway, so someone has to be your race.

And, sure, Rich World makes the cost of blood slaves higher, but as a percentage-wise it's exactly the same! You have %50 more money in the bank, and your slaves cost %50 more. What's the big deal? It's not something that's going to cost you the game. If you play well, you still have an equal chance of winning as does everyone else. Stop being such a wuss. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[YellowCactus]

This game isn't perfect. There will be exploits. Personally, If I can take down CUnknown, this game will be a win for me! It's even greater the victory when betrail of the Cunknown is involved!
-Yc

[Huzurdaddi]

Cunknown,

I'm going to bite my tounge here and be as nice as possible.

Who, exactly, are you to pass judgement that it does not hurt me "that badly." I have explained at far greater length than I should have needed to how it hurts blood nations.

I do not think that being upset about one of the most important parameters in the game being set by the host without the knowledge of the players in the game is being a "wuss" by any stretch.

[CUnknown]

And I explained to you why it doesn't hurt you that badly. It may be more costly to blood hunt, but you have more money. So, it's pretty much a wash. Money is less valuable per gold piece when playing on a rich world. It's irrelevant that blood slaves cost more gold pieces.

[Boron]

We are going to restart the game soon. Zen just announced his new Itemmod for today/tomorrow and also a new Pretender Mod.

I will update the settings later today, hopefully this time i don't forget any special setting http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif.

[Huzurdaddi]

CUnknown said:
And I explained to you why it doesn't hurt you that badly. It may be more costly to blood hunt, but you have more money. So, it's pretty much a wash. Money is less valuable per gold piece when playing on a rich world. It's irrelevant that blood slaves cost more gold pieces.



Did the prices of what you guy with gold suddenly go up? No. Did the prices of what is bought with slaves go down? No. All that changed was the exchange rate. Thus if the decision used to be 8 crossbowmen or 1 devil it is now 16 crossbowmen or 1 devil. Thus, blood was heavily nerfed.

[Jurri]

Huzurdaddi said:
In short you are wrong. As I explained blood hunting converts gold into gems. Now it costs more gold to buy a blood slave.

Well, yes, but that doesn't change the fact that with a rich world blood nations can get blood slaves faster. More initial capital and more income means that more provinces can be hunted earlier, as the necessary mages can be recruited at a higher frequency than normal. Also, the labs and the castles are relatively cheaper so mage-production can be further enhanced (for those nations with non-capital-only hunters) Now consider a non-blood nation. It won't see a significant increase in gem income, since money doesn't translate into gems other than in the form of site-searchers, and usually the amount of these used won't differ much no matter the richness setting. And it isn't a function of research either.

Now, at an early point of the game the value of gems and slaves start to soar. In a rich world even faster, since research is faster. (This is because more money equates to more forts and hence more mages.) Thus blood nations gain a significant advantage with regards to magic in a rich world.

Well, that wasn't a particularly clear explanation, but I hope it conveys my point. In any case it's just my opinion and by no means will I be saying how you should play the game, please don't be offended.

[PashaDawg]

Where do I get the new mods?

[Boron]

PashaDawg said:
Where do I get the new mods?


Zen will publish them soon.

[Huzurdaddi]

Jurri,

I have to disagree with you. More money for most nations means more mages which means more site searching ( at least for me ).

Anyway, if the whole group want to keep going I'll live with it. Although it's bad form to not announce this change.

[DragonFire11]

Thanks pashaDawg for the mods notice -- I don't check in here as much as I should.

[Aku]

The mods zen put up in his thread.

http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=296181&page=0&view=collap sed&sb=5&o=&fpart=25&vc=1

Zen pretenders 2.2 and his new mod...items 1.0!!!

The item mod is very interesting...i am still looking at the file.

Dont worry we will give time for everyone to look over the files before we restart the game.

Notable changes ive seen are dragons going from 23 prot to 19 prot and life drain wpns and hoarding getting nerfed.

[PashaDawg]

Dragonfire and I are playing a practice game right now with the new mods so we can sharpen our claws before going up against all you thugs and rats!
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif /threads/images/Graemlins/icon04.gif /threads/images/Graemlins/icon04.gif /threads/images/Graemlins/icon04.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Saber Cherry]

Aku said:Notable changes ive seen are dragons going from 23 prot to 19 prot and life drain wpns and hoarding getting nerfed.



Good, Dragons were pretty insane http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I wonder if Vampire Queens changed?

[Manuk]

why are we not using the scales mod?

[Huzurdaddi]

I've tried out the new Dragons and they are not nearly as powerful as they used to be, which is a good thing I guess. They filled their role a little too well.

The item mod is swell. The nerf to life drain weapons works *perfectly* imo. There are now scads of AOE 1 melee weapons which makes for nice anti-infantry weapons, the ranged weapons are better which is nice, and there are anti-thug weapons too. It's a nice mix.

The hoarding items were nerfed somewhat. I don't know if it is sufficient nerfing but it is a start.

The problem is: now that dragons are nerfed what the heck is going to be my default pretender choice?!

[PashaDawg]

Manuk said:
why are we not using the scales mod?



We are! We're using all 4 zen mods now, together with Saber Cherry's mod.

[CUnknown]

Did the prices of what you guy with gold suddenly go up? No. Did the prices of what is bought with slaves go down? No. All that changed was the exchange rate. Thus if the decision used to be 8 crossbowmen or 1 devil it is now 16 crossbowmen or 1 devil. Thus, blood was heavily nerfed.



This is flawed reasoning. Increasing the value of provinces does not nerf blood in any way, so long as the % income devoted to blood stays the same. Imagine if all provinces gave you 1000x more gold than they do now. Would you be scared to play a blood race? Hell no you wouldn't! Would it matter that blood slaves now costed an absolutely rediculous amount to get, costing you what would in other (normal) games be your whole -game's- worth of income??--of course not.

The thing is, if all provinces gave you 1000x more gold than they do now, you -won't freaking care- that you're losing tens of thousands of gold to blood hunting. You're going to have more gold than you can spend anyway!

That is the extreme case, but it scales back as well. It's all about % of gold devoted to blood hunting. Increasing the inflation of the game does just that -- gold is worth less than it was before.

[Aku]

Only the pretenders got a new version and we are adding the items mod from zen.

So its:

Pretender mod 2.2
Magic mod 1.8
Scales mod 1.2
Item mod 1.0
Saber Cherry mod 7.51

[Huzurdaddi]

CUnknown,

I don't honestly know if you are joking or not. I guess I have to assume that you are not.

The game decision is as follows. There is a given province that you wish to blood hunt and assuming that you wish to manage the unrest via setting the tax rate to 0.

In game ( a ) this province yeilds 40 gold at 100% taxes. This could be converted into 4 crossbowmen.

In game ( b ) this province yeilds 60 gold at 100% taxes. This could be converted into 6 crossbowmen.

In both cases the number of blood slaves yeiled is the same, let's say 9, enough for one devil.

Clearly there is more incentive in game ( a ) to blood hunt than there is in game ( b ).

I hope this was clear.

[PashaDawg]

So, I assume that we are uploading new pretenders, yes? Because I want to change mine. I got inspired last night.

[Manuk]

The blood discussion should be over since we are making pretenders again.

[Oversway]

I will upload my new pretender tonight

[Boron]

Oversway said:
I will upload my new pretender tonight


Wait a bit longer Alynan just discovered Typos in Zen's Itemmod might be likely that there will be a new version in 1-2 days with the Typos/Bugs fixed.

[The Panther]

On the subject of blood hunting. I certainly understand both sides of that argument. So, I will mention my own experience on the subject.

I am playing a Faerun game using Soapy's mods, which (among other things) made the growth scale 0.5% per point. Taking growth 3 was like playing on a rich world, probably even more so after Turn 50 or so. I am playing Atlantis.

Now, Atlantis is not a good blood hunting nation because the King of the Deeps cost a lot of gold, can only be built in the water, and only 1/8 are blood 2 random. Combined with the fact that you cannot blood hunt in water, Atlantis is clearly one of the lesser blood nations. Only R'lyeh and those themes that cannot get a blood random mage are worse at blood hunting than Atlantis.

However, beacuse of the extreme growth scale in that map, I have unlimited gold income on Turn 125. I noticed earlier this week that I went past 20,000 gold per turn. Totally insane. I am building and losing shamblers (30 gold each!) by the thousands just to spend my gold. They are starving all over the place and I don't even care. I even put 90 PD in several key provinces just to hold them for a few turns!

So, what about the blood?

Well, I am blood hunting like crazy! My blood income is rising far faster than my gem income. I am blood hunting in provinces with 10K population and 80 gold income because I simply don't care about gold anymore. I am even using only 2 blood hunters per province at zero tax rate just to minimize the micro-management. In the past few turns, I have sent probably 600 blood slaves to my Man ally who is getting overrun by the lizard juggernaut.

And C'tis (a much better blood hunting nation than Atlantis) has far more blood income than do I on this very rich Faerun world. Of course, C'tis has more provinces (maybe 220 to my 130) so this is also part of the equation.

So, by my own behavior in this one game, I would have to say that a rich world does not hurt blood hunting at all.

[Boron]

The Panther said:
Now, Atlantis is not a good blood hunting nation because the King of the Deeps cost a lot of gold, can only be built in the water, and only 1/8 are blood 2 random. Combined with the fact that you cannot blood hunt in water, Atlantis is clearly one of the lesser blood nations. Only R'lyeh and those themes that cannot get a blood random mage are worse at blood hunting than Atlantis.



Ryleh is a better Bloodhunter as Atlantis http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif because the Starspawns have 2 randoms so you get about 1/4 with blood 1 random.
So Ryleh gets more bloodhunters than Atlantis and the Cost for a Starspawn and a Seaking is about the same.
With a SDR a blood 1 Starspawn is almost as good as your blood 2 Seaking for bloodhunting.

And you will also have a lot of spectres with blood random and once the blood flows you can summon a few fallen angels or similiar for further speeding up the bloodhunting.


I wonder if you get some kind of Overflow in your game soon.
There should be a maximum population per province and that might turn into a gamecrashing error in your game soon.

[Alneyan]

Don't worry about maximum population, the limit is *high*. Very high. The theorical number would be 650,000 inhabitants or so, but I haven't tested the exact value.

If you go above the limit, you will go into negative numbers instead, so the game won't crash due to that: in a silly test game, I had about -32,000 blood slaves, after having put too many mages on monthly Wish for Blood Slaves. I am not sure where the limit is here too, but again, 65000 is the usual suspect.

[Catquiet]

Sorry to cause trouble but I have an objection to zen's item mod. Clams now require 2 water 2 astral to make. This will pretty much stop Ermor from doing any hoarding while other nations (mainly Rlyeh and Atlantis) can still hoard very effectively. I don't enjoy hoarding much but if it is in the game, I need have the same access to clams as other nations. Ermor lives and dies by gem production.

There are three basic solutions that I can see.

Ban all gem producing items
Or don't use zen's item mod
Or let me switch over to Ryleh where I can hoard to my heart's content.

[Oversway]

I don't enjoy hoarding much but if it is in the game, I need have the same access to clams as other nations.



You mean you need to have the same access to clams as Atlantis and Rlyeh, yeah?

Should we also give all nations should have an unkeep free recruitable undead to put fever fetish's on?

Edit: well I don't really want to start another argument. As atlantis I'd like to have clams so that I can get a better than 2 for 1 conversion from all the water gems I'll have, but I'll just let everyone else decide what is fair, and deal with that.

[Catquiet]

Oversway said:
Should we also give all nations should have an unkeep free recruitable undead to put fever fetish's on?



The upkeep of those "upkeep free" undead is 100% of the gold Ermor would have gotten from having a population to tax.

[CUnknown]

I have to voice my disapproval of the Item mod, too. I vote we don't use it. The changes to lifedrain weapons are totally rediculous, imo, and I don't like the hoard item changes either, although in such a large game as we're playing it may be a decent idea.

[Huzurdaddi]

CUnknown said:
The changes to lifedrain weapons are totally rediculous, imo



if by ridiculous you mean awesome then I totally agree. They are now for use on heros with exceptional strength. Perfect. Thematic.

[The Panther]

If you want to clam hoard as Ermor under Zen's mods, you can! If you want the extra income from a rich world as Ermor, you can!

No problem at all. Just pick the Broken Empire theme, and you can have both these things very easily.

In fact, I would NEVER consider taking anything but Broken Empire on a map as large as Faerun for the following reasons:

1. Because of the zillions of troops you will have if you are AE or SG and survive to the late game, the micromanagement of trying to shuffle those wimps to the front lines would be horrid. Your best bet would then be to try to get eliminated early to avoid this insane problem.
2. Your neighbors know where you start on Faerun. If you take a 10-dominion population-killing Ermor theme, they WILL gang up on you to try to get rid of the nastiness as soon as possible. At the very best, they will try to contain you from all sides. Especailly since you will be building temples much faster on a rich world than normal.
3. Your living neighbors will have lots more troops than normal, thus taking away a big advantage of AE or SG. Those Ermor themes will not be generating troops any faster on the rich world, but they will be.


If I were you Catquiet, I would take BE and announce that fact to the world. I did that in slugfest and my neighbors treated me as a normal nation. I even spread growth into Mictlan's territories and he was vey happy about it.

If you want some advice on BE, just ask as one cat to another. Broken Empire is not a bad theme at all. Probably less strong that the pop-killer themes, but it is FAR more enjoyable to play than those time-consuming themes...

[Catquiet]

The Panther said:
No problem at all. Just pick the Broken Empire theme, and you can have both these things very easily.

In fact, I would NEVER consider taking anything but Broken Empire on a map as large as Faerun for the following reasons:




Human nations don't hold much attraction for me. It's like playing D&D and rolling up an accountant as your character.

[Boron]

Panther is right.
AE/SG get more gems from their starting site but no other boni.

As Panther said your neighbors will realize soon that you are AE/SG Ermor. They will team up against you.
You might get killed until turn 30-40 probably because ppl exactly know what to do vs. AE/SG Ermor.
Should be very difficult to survive that.

And if you survive you might get affected by the Unitlimit against which AE/SG Ermor can do nothing.

So taking BE Ermor would probably be a good idea http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[CUnknown]

Lifedrain weapons may still be useful in very unusual cases (your ice devil or tartarian with heroic ability: increased strength), but for the vast majority of cases, they are completely worthless. Hell swords especially: 40 blood slaves and 10 fire gems for a -10 damage weapons? What was Zen smoking?

And even in those unusual cases, I'd bet that a standard sword of sharpness might still be the better choice given the cost difference. Basically Zen made lifedraining weapons the absolute worst weapons in the game. If he hated them so much, why not just get rid of them completely?

I think a more reasonable change, such as increasing the cost to 20 death gems/blood slaves and/or reducing the damage to 4-5 instead of 9 would have been the way to go. Zen's choice was far too extreme, especially when combined with Cherry's mod--armies will own the map under these settings, and will be impossible to stop without an army of your own. Perhaps that's what people want, though.

[CyborgMoses]

Personally, I would get a kick out of playing D&D as an accountant. While everyone else is plotting and scheming to rob the dragon of his treasure hoard, I just audit him. What's that? You don't pay taxes!? CALL IN THE ARMY! Captured by bandits? A little creative bookkeeping, and I have a small fortune to bribe the guards with! There are so many more possibilities to work with than the "hit things with swords" guy.

[Dimaz]

CUnknown said:
armies will own the map under these settings, and will be impossible to stop without an army of your own.



I think this particular game (set of mods) is just about it.

[PashaDawg]

CyborgMoses said:
Personally, I would get a kick out of playing D&D as an accountant. While everyone else is plotting and scheming to rob the dragon of his treasure hoard, I just audit him. What's that? You don't pay taxes!? CALL IN THE ARMY! Captured by bandits? A little creative bookkeeping, and I have a small fortune to bribe the guards with! There are so many more possibilities to work with than the "hit things with swords" guy.



Hardy Har Har. I can't give you a gold star, so: /threads/images/Graemlins/icon43.gif /threads/images/Graemlins/icon43.gif

[Manuk]

Bogus and his band will complain of this changes.

[The Panther]

On the subject of life drain weapons, they are MUCH too cheap in the base game. The reason is not so much the life stealing as the fatigue stealing! You never get fatigued when using life drain but the enemy trops get fatigued very quickly. That makes life drain far stronger than the mere damage it delivers. Dropping the strength of the weapon thus does not fix this mistake.

Zen nerfed them because all the top players built mostly life drain weapons for all their SCs and even mini-SCs. Making the weapons more expensive would open up a lot more options for other weapons, just as it should be.

Ever notice that Gaap is the best Ice Devil simply because he comes with a Hell Sword? And the guy with the no hand slots (can't remember his name) is not very good because you can't give him a Blood Thorn? I have...

I am pretty sure the devs will correct this problem in Dom 3.

[Soapyfrog]

Yeah if life drain weapons didnt steal fatigue, they'd be fine.

[Huzurdaddi]

I'm going to bow out. The combination of rich setting and the super buff to Abysia are too much of an advantage.

I am glad that the game was set to rich though. I never would have tested some of the nations ( Abysia in particular ) unless something like that had happened.

[Catquiet]

I'm going to bow out also. I don't think I could stay interested during a long game playing BE Ermor.

[The Panther]

This map is just too big for these settings. Even if you can find 17 people willing to start the game, I would predict that at least 8 will drop out by elimination or quitting before Turn 50. It always happens that way on big maps when the game becomes tedious.

[Huzurdaddi]

I would hope that at least 8 people would be eliminated by turn 50! Turn 50 is pretty late into the game.

[The Panther]

Huzurdaddi said:
I would hope that at least 8 people would be eliminated by turn 50! Turn 50 is pretty late into the game.



Not on Faerun! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

I seem to recall in our Faerun game that the only the people eliminated by turn 50 were the ones who had quit. Heck, even Graeme Dice survived longer than that despite being ganged up in a 3 on 1. Ulm lasted to almost turn 80 despite going AI around turn 40. Marignon lasted even longer than that as an AI. You yourself lasted past turn 50 with two different nations!

I am currently in a game on Inland with 9 players full of rich diplomacy where nobody is eliminated as yet on turn 49. And this is despite the game being full of endless bloody wars! But inland is wraparound and you can always find an ally somewhere to maybe help you against any random enemy, no matter where they are located.

Faerun is a horse of a different color, for it encourages extended peace plus lots of mass hoarding.

[Manuk]

I find boring that people quit on the first difficulty. If we play 17 players there cannot be 17 winners. I don´t mind if i lose if I can get the fun of fighting epic battles.

Man has been nerfed too, so what? I beleive I have a chance.

[Huzurdaddi]

The Panther said:

Huzurdaddi said:
I would hope that at least 8 people would be eliminated by turn 50! Turn 50 is pretty late into the game.



Not on Faerun! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

I seem to recall in our Faerun game that the only the people eliminated by turn 50 were the ones who had quit.



Actually I had destroyed 2 nations that were being played ( Arcosphale and Mictlan ) by turn 50! Further I had taken out or was in the process of taking out T'ien Ch'i, Abysia, and Jotunhiem ( although all 3 has just started to stale around that point ). I think all of them were gone by turn 55. Although I'm not exactly sure.

I can not take all of the credit for the Mictlan conquering though. He had been weaken by the constant attacks of Matchaka and then when their war was over I swooped in and took his lands.

C'tis in that game got almost all of it's gains through war and has been at war since ~ turn 25. It's been a bloodbath!

[RibbonBlue]

I have not read the whole thread, but I would be interested in taking marignon if this spot is for a NEW game, not a empire of a player who left.
If this is a new game, I would like to know the settings, and any mods that are being used and what map it is on.
Also, this would be my 2nd multiplayer game if you don't mind though.

[Boron]

RibbonBlue said:
I have not read the whole thread, but I would be interested in taking marignon if this spot is for a NEW game, not a empire of a player who left.
If this is a new game, I would like to know the settings, and any mods that are being used and what map it is on.
Also, this would be my 2nd multiplayer game if you don't mind though.


Sure Welcome RibbonBlue.
All settings and mods are listed on the first page.
We are starting the game again so you design your own god.
Hf in your first faerun, it will be a nice experience most likely http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[PashaDawg]

I am not worried about the epic size of this game... I never make it past turn 25, because my evil opponents usually don't take kindly to my defensive-totally-justified police actions into their territory.

[RibbonBlue]

Just looking at the settings, armies are gunna be awesome in this, especialy blessings.

[Soapyfrog]

We could always play with an AI ermor if no-one steps up...

[Aku]

If we need to play with Ermor on AI do we put it on difficult or impossible setting?

Also Zen is publishing another version of the item mod...i assume 1.1 and also a nation mod within next few days. I talked to Boron and we would be using the updated mods and the nation mod to replace saber cherrys mod. So it will be a full entire zen modded game!

[Boron]

Soapyfrog said:
We could always play with an AI ermor if no-one steps up...


Good idea we will do this if nobody shows up.

We are waiting for Zens Nation mod now, Zen said that he will probably finish the Nation mod this weekend. Since this mod will be incompatible with SCs Unit Rebalance Mod we will replace it with Zens Nation mod then.

[Oversway]

Sounds cool, zen deluxe set! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

If we play ermor ai, would it be better to give them difficult/impossible or design the nation (all bad scales but luck and magic, dominion 10, good sc pretender) and set them to AI the 1st round?

[The Panther]

All righty, I will offer to take Ermor (Broken Empire) for a few weeks and get it off to a good start before turning it AI (or maybe even finding a sub) on June 16 when I go to Europe on my vacation. That way the normal bad scales spreading like wildfire under 10 dominion (which would result from a death theme Ermor) won't skew the game in the north. As I think everyone knows, the AI plays nasty tough as AE/SG Ermor on the impossible setting because it can easily handle all the micromanagement.

[Boron]

How long are you in vacation Panther?
If it is not too long we could pause the game until you are back, that is if you want to continue faerun at all.

On a sidenote are you visiting Germany too?

[Soapyfrog]

Well you dont really want Ermor to be an easy rollover, or someone will be getting a nice boost...

[The Panther]

I will be leaving June 17 and returning on June 28. I will spend most of the time in France with a little daytrip to Geneva in Switzerland. Germany is not on the list this time.

My daughter is an exchange student at the same school in France that Alneyan attends. She is now fluent in French and wants to be my tour guide. It is going to be quite a lot of fun, I predict. I think of it as a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, though the monetary cost is going to be $$$$$$.

So, no Dominions at all while I am gone. For my current games, I will either:
find a sub or
stale or
go AI or
resign.

As for playing Ermor in this new game of yours, I will not be doing that. I cannot conceive of the immense time required to play this game past Turn 70 or so on these settings. I am not going to be investing that kind of time this summer, as I have a lot on my plate until my life settles down.

One thing my current Faerun game taught me is that I will never again be playing an MP game on that map, for it is much too big. I put a semi-humorous post on this subject on the Quarter to Three Forum yesterday.

Probably the best thing for you guys is to find a new permanent Ermor player in this game. Alternatively, you can put in an impossible AI, who will likely pick AE and really hurt his neighbors bad. Cruel, yes, but effective! The idea of selecting the Pretender and turning it AI will not work very well since you cannot force it to be an impossible AI by doing that, I believe. And you can't use the extra Pretender points the computer receives on the more difficult settings.

Anyway, good luck to all the masochists playing in this game! It will be a heck of a lot of fun, I predict, based on how much I have enjoyed my own (one-and-only) Faerun game. If I was retired from work already, I would be joining this game in a heartbeat.

[Alneyan]

The Panther said:
The idea of selecting the Pretender and turning it AI will not work very well since you cannot force it to be an impossible AI by doing that, I believe. And you can't use the extra Pretender points the computer receives on the more difficult settings.



You can force the game to host using impossible AIs, if you are in full control of the dom2.exe used to run the turns (or can setup the command line of the .exe yourself). At least, the command switches doc says so; I have never tried it myself.

It will not help with the extra Pretender points however, though you could work around that, by giving Ermor a special nation-only Pretender. This Pretender would have a cost of 0 and as many freebies as you need to reach a "cost" of 250 points (Dominion 8 or 9 perhaps); all the other stats of the Pretender would be similar to the chosen Pretender. That would give a 500 points Pretender having 250 free points, as many points as Impossible AIs get, and with better choices.

[Oversway]

I like Alneyan's idea. I think just doing an impossible ai is a bad idea.

Personally I think even a 'normal' 500 point well designed pretender is better for the ai compared to the pretender that it may generate.

[Gandalf Parker]

You can also do it thru map and/or mod. Ive built huge gods for AI's. Things not allowed in the game to be used as gods. Also given them spell boosts, extra castles, extra starting units, magic items, additional sites. Providing allied AI's can help also. I have a WEvsTHEM scenario where Ermor, Rlyeh, and Atlantis all start with sibling gods who are allied. All by commands added to the .map file

Anything you feel makes the AI weak can be fixed for one game.

Gandalf Parker

[CyborgMoses]

I'd be willing to take a shot at this. I have three games going right now at various stages, though, so you should probably take that into consideration if someone else is available. Also, I've never seen this map. Hey, I suck.

I do keep wishing that there were more turns available for me to play, if that matters. People play so slowly, especially when they're about to get eliminated.

[Aku]

Sounds like Cyborgmosses is going to be our Ermor player!

Are we waiting for zens nation mod or going ahead with saber cherrys mod? Just let me know when to start the server up for uploading pretenders.

[PashaDawg]

I am easy on which mods to use. Just let me know.

[Manuk]

lets start how we are now

[Aku]

Boron left me a message that we will start the game for uploading pretenders tomorrow. If Zens nation mod isnt published by then we will use saber cherrys mod.

[Soapyfrog]

And so?

*taps foot impatiently*

:p

[RibbonBlue]

So do we upload?

[Aku]

Sorry for the delay...I am setting it up now. Will post with info when its ready in like 5 minutes.

[Aku]

IP: 24.90.74.183

Port: 6999

Pretenders 2.2
Scales 1.2
Magic 1.8
Item 1.0
Saber Cherry 751

You can upload pretenders now, make sure you have the zen mods and saber cherrys mod enabled when you create your pretender and the current dominions patch 2.16.

[RibbonBlue]

K Marignon Is in.

[Boron]

Ryleh uploaded

[Manuk]

Man is in

[PashaDawg]

Acro's in!

[YellowCactus]

MMmmictlan!
-yc

[CyborgMoses]

Ermor is up.

[Dimaz]

Caelum ready

[Oversway]

I'll upload atlantis tonight

[YellowCactus]

Hey!
I just noticed that my wonderful, immaculate, supreme /threads/images/Graemlins/Lips.gif FOUNTAIN /threads/images/Graemlins/Lips.gif isn't producing the +2 astral gems each turn under the new pretender mod. No worries, but was wondering if this was a fix or a bug?

You will all die.
-yc

[Aku]

I looked at the pretender 2.2 file and it should be producing the gems. It has to be a bug. But I am not an expert at looking at the mod files so I will have Boron take a look at the Oracle also in zens mod pretender file when I see him online.

Anyway, do you want to change your god YC or still keep it?

[Knudsen]

Ulm is ready. I'll be away friday through sunday though - so no hurry.

[Boron]

YellowCactus said:
Hey!
I just noticed that my wonderful, immaculate, supreme /threads/images/Graemlins/Lips.gif FOUNTAIN /threads/images/Graemlins/Lips.gif isn't producing the +2 astral gems each turn under the new pretender mod. No worries, but was wondering if this was a fix or a bug?

You will all die.
-yc



It is a bug.

The syntax is correct though :

#gemprod 4 2


It could be though that this is causing the trouble :


-- Oracle
#selectmonster 158
#gemprod 4 2
#hp 20
<font color="red"> #clearspec </font>
#startdom 4
#pathcost 30
#gcost 0
#inanimate
#immobile
#neednoteat
#itemslots 61440
#descr "The Oracle is a powerful spirit inhabiting a sacred spring. The spirit possess a girl to serve as the instrument. The instrument is blinded and rendered unable to do anything but speak the will of the Oracle. At the age of thirteen, she is sacrificed and replaced with a new girl, born the day the previous girl was made the voice of the spirit. The Oracle is immobile and cannot leave the spring it inhabits. It can possess willing targets to perform tasks such as forging items for enchantment. The Oracle is tremendously strong in it's Dominion and magically powerful. Within it's sacred waters heavenly light gathers forming two Astral pearls each season. The spring can be destroyed, but not easily."
#reinvigoration 4
#end



Not sure but either putting clearspec in the first line or just leaving it out fully might solve the issue.

[RibbonBlue]

I can't remeber but I think I took oracle too, that or moloch, but im pretty sure it was an oracle.

[YellowCactus]

It's of no consiquence. I'm drunk and happy to play!
-yc

[DragonFire11]

I loaded my god just now. I too am in no hurry since, like Ulm, I will be gone until Sunday afternoon. Internet connection at my destination is questionable.

[Oversway]

good then I don't feel so bad about forgetting to upload my pretender last night http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Resok]

Sorry I haven't uploaded my pretender yet... time has been bad for me since I've been working long hours to make up for Monday (stupid non-paid holidays http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif ).

I'll upload my pretender when I get home tonight.

Resok

[Aku]

No rush Resok since we have people gone until Sunday. It looks like the first turn of the game wont be until Monday.

[Soapyfrog]

Jotunheim uploaded.

[Oversway]

atlantis is in

[Aku]

Hopefully everyone will be uploaded by Sunday night so we can start the game up Monday morning.

[Aku]

Pythium and Pangaea still need to upload so we can get started.

[YellowCactus]

Some ambitious player should PM them!
-Yc

[Boron]

Pythium hasn't uploaded yet nor responded to my pm.
If someone wants to participate as Pythium he is welcome http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

I can understand though that there is no love for pythium with SC's mod, so if we find no new pythium player within the next few days we will probably set pythium on difficult AI.

[dian]

Sorry, for delay. I had a crazy work on my holiday.
Pythium pretender has just aploaded now. (2 mins before i've red this topic =) )

[Oversway]

so thats it? game on?

[PashaDawg]

Yeeeehaww! Let's get this mule out of the stable! &lt;Wack... Wack!&gt;

[Aku]

Game is up. It will go on 24hr quickhost after the first turn is done.

[Boron]

Resok didn't upload his pretender but we found a replacement. Hubris is now taking Pangenea and the game has started (finally http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif).

Now let's have some nice bloodbaths and extreme fights http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif