Sons of Kaleva, a Kalevala mod

[Endoperez]

This thread is ancient and hasn't aged well. Because of this, I made a new thread for release (version 0.85 and on).

New thread here (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=40388)


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I'm making a mod based on the Finnish epic, Kalevala, and on Finnish mythology in general. At the moment, it's a mismatch of bear tribals, random ideas and heap of national spells. Suggestions are welcome.

Mages everywhere:
Witch: N1E1 / 100 gp, sacred
Wiseman: N1 ?100%WEDN / 120 gp, sacred Holy 1

mages cap only:
Spellsinger: N2E1 ?210%WEDN / 240 gp
Bear Tribe Shaman: N2 ?10%E / 110gp, sacred stealthy



units everywhere:
Bear Tribe Warriors (l.inf. with spear/javelin or hatchet)
Huskarl (med.inf. with spear/javelin, shield or axe/javelin, shield)
Woodsman (l. archer with dagger/shortbow; stealthy)
Hunstman (med.inf. with axe, crossbow, shield; stealthy)
Hakkapelite (light cav with broad sword, lance, hoof, shield)

The idea is a national army low in armor but good in stealth and with high damage-dealing potential. Hakkapelites have def 18 and only cost 15 resources, but they lack special qualities that'd make them rival centaur warriors or vanir.


units cap only:
Vaetti
Vaetti Wolfrider



National spells:

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
Spellsong of the Forest People, N3/9 gems ritual, conj 3
3x "kithaironic bear" with prot 18, att 12, str 23

Spellsong of the Mountain People, E2N1/15 gems ritual, conj 3
Gnome: E2N2 stealthy mage with glamour

Spellsong of the Water People, W2N1/19gems ritual, conj 4
N�kki: W2, 2xWDN magic. Costs upkeep.

Spellsong of the Grave People, N1D1, Thaum 1
national Seven Year Fever

Spellsong of the Wood People, N2, Alt 2
mag.res.negates, AoE 5 version of Aim to be used on archers

Spellsong of the Steel People, N1E1, Ench 3
heals 10 dmg on range 25, AoE 3

Spellsong of the High Heart, N2/1 gem, Alt 0
Fanaticism that costs 1 gem. Nation has no priests that can cast sermon of courage.
</pre><hr />


heroes:
not done yet, but will include Väinämöinen (mage with good E, lesser NWD, low awe and good combat skills), Ilmarinen (mage with good A, lesser F and/or E, forge bonus) and Hiisi (custom moose-riding Troll King with a bit of Nature in addition to Earth) and possibly one or more of the following:
-Louhi, a seithkona/norna type crone that shapechanges into a Great Eagle or Ziz
-Joukahainen, a foolish hero with a bit of magic skill and lots of inherent flashy equipment like a flaming bow, a fiery mount, perhaps sailing ability
-Lemmink�inen, a human hero that her mother brings back from the dead (immortal?)
-small man who comes from the sea and transforms into a hulking giant in bronze equipment (fomorian in full bronze armor?)

------------------
This thread is ancient and hasn't aged well. Because of this, I made a new thread for release (version 0.85 and on).

New thread here (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=40388)

[Edi]

Fire, Endo. You need Fire magic for base mages, though it should be minor. Fire is one of the most important elements in Finnish folklore. It is the basis for all of our myths about house elves/gnomes (haltiat). The original haltia was a fire spirit, which would spring into being wherever a fire was lit and it would have an appearance akin to whoever made the fire.

This morphed into the kodinhaltia when settlements became permanent, but the kodinhaltia was liked to the fireplace of the house. I read a book on our folklore (actual research into it, not just a collection of myths) and within the geographical boundaries of Finland, there are mentions of hundreds of different spirits, with over two hundred names for fire spirits alone.

So just put F1 on the common mages, though the best the nation should get with fire mages is F2 at the most aside from Ilmarinen.

[Endoperez]

I'd really like to keep Earth, but it just has to go. I'd really like to keep Witches and Gnomes, but I might have to give both up. It's very annoying, but Earth just doesn't fit the nation at all. I had themed even Hiisi as a renegade Troll King, but trolls and fire don't work well together. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

What about this kind of a mage roster:

everywhere:
N1 100%FWDN Wiseman, sacred, not priest
N2H1 10%E Bear Tribe Shaman, stealthy
capital:
N2F1 210%FWDN Spellsinger

This way the nation has:
1) cheap, sacred researcher
2) access to a stealthy mage that can buff the stealthy troops, esp. cast Spellsong of the High Heart
3) a mage/priest recruitable everywhere
4) eventually a Nature/Earth mage, that can start summoning Gnomes if given Earth Boots or 30 Earth gems for empowerment

The only problem is that I'd have liked to change Spellsong of the High Heart into N1F1 now that I could have. I can't write here how troublesome it has been to come up with these changes. I really liked Earth, and needed it for the gnomes, and had to change lots of things. It was a really annoying process that can be summed up to "I don't know how experienced modmakers can go through all this more than once! AARGH! This doesn't work either!"

[DrPraetorious]

What era?

b/c even for late era, that is not strong magic - you could give them earth as well, no problem.

[Endoperez]

I'm not sure yet. At the moment, I'm thinking of light armor but good damage potential. I'm also considering all-around mapmove of at least 2 for all units (light and med infantry, stealthy archers, stealthy med inf. with crossbows) and forestsurvival, with perhaps one or more of the other survival types thrown in for even better movement rate. However, I also want crossbows, so Early age is out.

I'd like to add more mages, but I'm out of ideas ATM. Comparing Spellsinger to mages of Middle, it seems he could be made available everywhere without balance problems. Perhaps a bit more versatile with his double random, but not out of line. I'll add a variation of Vaetti hags to the capital, but that's all I have left.

[DrPraetorious]

Let's assume mid-era, as there are a lot of late-era mods already. Don't the Finns have something of a reputation as sorcerers among their neighbors, Kelavala aside?

I'd drop the Vaetti, or make everyone Vaetti.

This is my suggestion for magic paths and special powers.

Witch (everywhere) - EN,{FWE,75%}{FWN,75%},healer 20%,prevent bad events 10%
Spellsinger (everywhere) - F2N2,{FEDN,100%}{FEDN,10%}
Shaman (capital only) - Sacred, turns into a Bear, maybe even a werebear (thugable), E2N2,{FWEN,10%}
Sorcerer (capital only) - D2WFN,{FWDN,100%},{FWDN,10%}

Another option would be to convert some of those heroes into commanders - so the witches could have air magic and *all* turn into giant eagles; the sorcerers could all have forge bonuses.

I sure hope they add more nation slots http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Endoperez]

I made graphics for Hiisi already, so I'm not going to drop them straight away. They'll be goblins, like vaetti and bakemono, but instead of wolves they've befriended moose. They provide the nation cheap stealthy archers and stealthy cavalry. Moose Brothers have one spearmen and one archer mounted on a moose, and after the first 8 damage the archer dies but the spearman stays.

I think I'll go with something like this:

Sorcerer (hiisi) - {FWD 100%}{FDN 100%}, prevent bad events 10%
Wiseman (everywhere) - F1N2,{FEDN,100%}{FEDN,10%}
Bear Tribe Shaman (everywhere) - H1 N2, {E, 50%}{E, 50%}
Spellsinger (capital only) - F2N2, {FWDN,100%},{FWDN,100%},{FWDN,10%}


Also, I'm aiming to make this mod completely replace EA Ulm, slot and all. Someone has to try if it works, eh?

[DrPraetorious]

If they're going to be EA, they should get a *lot* more magic than that.

Let's compare to EA Ermor. EA Ermor, which is pretty balanced, gets a nice military and:
F2SD2{FSNA,110%} on the augur elder
F{FAWEN,100%} on the Flamen

That's F3A1W1E1S2D3N1.

[Endoperez]

They're going to be in MA. I just use up nation slot 2 (EA Ulm) instead of one of the free nation slots, and EA Ulm nametype slots (131, 132) for the heroes.

Unit roster ATM:
Hiisi (stealthy goblin archer)
Moose Brother (stealthy moose infantry/archer)
Bear Tribe Warriors (light infantry)
Huskarls (med. infantry with javelins)
Huntsman (med. infantry with axe, crossbow, shield)
Hakkapelite (light cavalry with broad sword, lance, good def)

possibile additions:
Bear Cult Warrior (med. infantry with battleaxe, perhaps with berserk/sacred/something)




mages:
Same as few posts ago, except for:
Spellsinger (capital only) - F2D1N2, 210%FWDN; they are also somewhat older, and sometimes start with old age (esp. if they got fire randoms)

possible addition:
Myrrysmies (Storm Zealot?) - low-level Nature/Fire/Water mage with good prot, berserker+5, perhaps fire resistance

Here is a Finnish-only wikipedia article about them. Basically, mages who go to a berserk-like trance when doing magic, exorcising spirits with an axe and able to handle weapons from their blades without harming themselves.
http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intomies


Also, I realised that Näkki will make very good thugs. 19 gems for amphibian size 4, 27 hp, prot 6 Water/Death/Earth mage with full equipment slots. They have W2 and three WDE randoms, so can get up to W5, and will have at least W3 or two paths at level 2.

[Edi]

Storm zealot would be a poor translation of myrrysmies. Better to leave it without one, as that term just doesn't translate correctly. English doesn't have the proper words for it without wrecking the meaning. Or you could leave it at myrrysman

[Endoperez]

Zeal is very good translation of "into" of intomies, IMO. "Storm Zealot" isn't good translation of myrrysmies, though. I think I'll go with Myrrysmage or something similar.

The warrior type under consideration (currently named Bear Zealots) are a difficult choice. On the other hand, if I make them sacred they're too similar to EA Ulm Steel Warriors and MA Man Wardens. Especially if I give them two-handed swords. However, there aren't that many two-handed weapons, and giving them two weapons would step on Einhere's toes.
At the moment, the unit is 20 gp, Einhere stats, worse equipment and dies very fast to any kind of missile fire.

[Burnsaber]

I feel kinda silly for posting this same suggestion twice, but have you considered implementing Sampo in any way?

I threw some ideas around in the orginal thread. Sampo would be a kinky unit in the way there really aren't units in Dom3 that are pure support.

It could giving massive supplybonus (the salt and flour grinding). It was also decipted as a bringer of good fortune, so perhaps very nice fortune teller (75? or perhaps even 100!). The grinding of money is a bit tough, since you can't make troops produce gold. The closest interpetation would most likely be to make it produce gems (Fire gems or perhaps 1 of each kind?).

The problem is, that a unit that just sits in your capital isn't really that intresting. Perhaps it could be carried by some handlers so that it can move? A unit that makes sure that your troops don't starve, supplies your mages with gems and protects it from unlucky events could be usefull. When #onebattlespell becomes available, it could perhaps cast a good battlefield buff to encourage using it alongside armies (something like Fanatism?)

The path combination could perhaps be twiddled so that it would most likely be only "summonable" by Ilmarinen or a pretender with the right paths.

[Endoperez]

I can do that. Spreading dominion and generating Fire and Nature gems, having huge supply bonus and the good luck ability of Lady of Fortune... Yes, I could come up with something. Making it Fire/Air would limit it to Ilmarinen quite nicely.

I could start with the Divine Emperor graphics.
With #onebattlespell, I'd give it "Spellsong of the High Heart", which is a 1-gem fanaticism.

[Burnsaber]

Endoperez said:
the good luck ability of Lady of Fortune




There will be most likely troubles with this. If you copystats Lady of Fortune, the sampo won't be unique. In my humble opinion, it should be unique for thematic and balance reasons (Summonable gem producer. Danger Will Robinson! Danger!)

I've also heard that there is a bug when copystatting pretenders. If you copystats a pretender, the unit will appear as pretender choice for all nations. Quantum_mechani knows more about it, he bumped into it while working on WH 1.8

[DrPraetorious]

#nobadevents gives the bad-event prevention power, no need to copystats.

You can also #restrictedgod (insert late era nation), and then only one late era nation is effected. For an EA nation, this is a fix (you don't start LA games with the mod.)

[Endoperez]

As I said, this is going to be a MA nation. The point still stands, though.

Yeah, I hadn't considered uniqueness. I'll have to stay with bad event cancellation unless some unique also has the ability of generating good events.

[normalphil]

What, no Kullervo? A berserker-mage may be hard to use, but he could be one hell of a thug if you plan it right.

[Endoperez]

I won't be able to progress before Christmas, at the earliest. I just spent a week in fever, including what would have been my last *free* weekend before some more fun in the forest, against real tanks for a chance.


I don't know how I could do Kullervo. Human non-mage heroes won't be worth bad events and/or unrest, and making him a spy would be very different from what he did IIRC. Besides, he killed himself. If you have any ideas about him, suggest.

I could make him into a unit of some sort. An dual-wielding infantryman armed with some big melee weapon (axe? sword?) and a magical knife - perhaps Knife of the Damned, or even Dusk Dagger or Blood Thorn.

I'd like to make the Myrrysmages useful thugs. I'm not sure about the paths yet.

I've also considered chaning the summons a bit. Instead of actual bears, the summons make huskarl-type units with special abilities. Perhaps sacred, berserker and half-bear second form, although that'd make them quite similar to Skinshifters and Jaguar Warriors. As an additional trick, I'd like to keep these special units' named "Huskarl", so that the weaker mundane huskarls are bought to keep the number of the summoned ones secret.

[Lingchih]

Ahh, you must include Kullervo. Somehow. He is too important to the story. I would make him an assassin of some sort. Not thematic really, but you have to fit him in somewhere.

[Endoperez]

I don't have to, any more than Illwinter had to include Arthur, Mordred and Merlin for the nation of Man. It has Knights of the Stone, i.e. of the Round Table - but there's no "Arthur the Great King", no "Merlin the Demonbred Sorcerer", or even a sword in the stone. There's nothing like the scabbard that heals the wounds of its user, and I doubt Stone Sword is Excalibur. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

I could take a totally different interpretation of Kullervo, like Tolkien's Turin Blacksword, and use that in my mod. Sword Companion, medium infantry with metal armor and enchanted swords

I could even make it a new Nature/Death item the mod made available. Constr 6 or even 8, armor-negating dagger with special ability of "curse luck" on hit - cancels Luck, makes more suspectible to afflictions and sucks in general. If advanced item modding commands/ "copyitem" were possible, I could make it cursed and/or make it autocurse the wielder.


I won't add Kullervo just to get him added. I don't want too many units or commanders that aren't used, and I don't want to add units that I can't make feel right even to myself.

[DrPraetorious]

Almost any mage is going to be used.

If you give him 18 hit points, high combat skills, nature and astral, and a soul-drinking weapon, he'll be a very effective thug, although you probably wouldn't make equipment for him.

Alternatively, you could make him as a pretender chassis http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif, give him like 25 hit points and a soul drinking sword - with enough special powers (glamour, fear and ethereal, say) he'd be a suitable SC god even with barely above human scale hit points.

[Endoperez]

Having one hero with Astral magic would certainly boost their magic, at least when it comes to thugs. Luck and Amulets of Antimagic are pretty much necessary for proper thugging.

[Lingchih]

Yes, I think a hero is the perfect addition for Kullervo. You don't really want to recruit him, but if he pops up, then all the better. He could also be a Pretender chassis, but I'm not sure who would want to serve under Kullervo http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/redface.gif

[Jarkko]

Endoperez said:
Spreading dominion and generating Fire and Nature gems, having huge supply bonus and the good luck ability of Lady of Fortune... Yes, I could come up with something. Making it Fire/Air would limit it to Ilmarinen quite nicely.


Instead of generating supplies, couldn't it generate income and resources (and be immovable)?

[Burnsaber]

Jarkko said:

Endoperez said:
Spreading dominion and generating Fire and Nature gems, having huge supply bonus and the good luck ability of Lady of Fortune... Yes, I could come up with something. Making it Fire/Air would limit it to Ilmarinen quite nicely.


Instead of generating supplies, couldn't it generate income and resources (and be immovable)?



In the ideal land of rainbows and eternal honey, yes. But making a unit that increases scales is not moddable.

[Sombre]

You can copystats one of the units that increases magic scale,.. or growth scale too I think.

[Endoperez]

However, I can't make it unique if I copystats a non-unique creature for its powers. Lady of Fortune etc luck-increasers aren't unique. The monkey summon that increases magic scale isn't unique. Can't do, sorry.

[HoneyBadger]

How's this mod going, Endoperez? Especially now that we're getting unique tag. Having been introduced to the Kalevala (haven't read it through yet, but I will), I'm interested.

[Endoperez]

Weak. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

I start something, then run out of steam. Both with this, and with the arabian nights mods I was helping with.

I still have my notes, so I could pick up from where I left this... However, I also have notes on two other mods that never got even this far.

I might get a little more progress on this, but we'll see.

[Lingchih]

That is a shame. I was so looking forward to a Kalevala mod.

Such heroes! Kullervo, Lemminkainen, Vainimoinen.

[Endoperez]

Heroes aren't hard, everything but heroes is. I don't know nearly enough about Finnish history to create several different types of semi-historical units.

[Lingchih]

I must confess, you have me there Endo. I know nothing about the average Finnish warrior of that time. I only know about what the Kallevala told me about their heroes.

I would have to guess that the normal Finn troops were somewhat along the lines of Vikings? But perhaps less well-equipped, although having easier access to low level mages (captains)? Perhaps lvl 1 W, or W1 plus A1?

[Endoperez]

I have ideas for the mages, but the basic troops... I don't know anything, so I could just as well use huskarls. Hakkapelite cavalry was later invention, but I also use it; I think I'll also add something like LA Ulm rangers: stealthy foresters with crossbows.

[atul]

If you're using cavalry a'la 30 year war, couldn't you also put in some net-throwers? At least I think I remember reading about troops making heavy use of lassos of sort to dismount riders and then knifing them to death. Net could simulate that.

[Endoperez]

This is the first time I heard about that, but since my father has lassoed me, it isn't too hard to believe... I was sitting in my chair, heard someone open the door and BAM! there's rope around me. He used to take part in the reindeer markings when he lived up north, and had made a sami-style suopunki for his class.

Any way, if I do include it, I'd probably give it to the ranger-types. Net and crossbow could be a powerful combination in close range if they had high enough precision for the whole volley to hit the target(s), even if they had only a dagger for actual melee. How does the net work? Is attack required for the entangle?

[Lingchih]

Do you have Moose in Finland? I've never been there, but it seems like good Moose country. Maybe you could add them in somehow, like Moose Riders.

[atul]

There certainly are moose in Finland, I've personally bumped into two. But if you look for animals more present in mythos, wouldn't bears be the ones to check.

Dunno about the lassos, I think it was something I read in elementary school. Can't find any reference.

[Endoperez]

I actually have both moose and bears included, or planned at least.

Moose is in as hiisi Mooseriders, basically local vaetti. Bears are in as both Bear Tribe Warriors and, perhaps, Bear Cult Warriors.

[Lingchih]

Bump. Nothing useful to add. Just wanted to keep this up top.

[Endoperez]

The constant pestering has started working. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Before I go to sleep, current progress:

Huntsman: 12gp/15res units with axe, crossbow, shield and prot 10.

Hiisi, 9gp/2res stealthy archer with dagger, short bow

Moose Brother: like MA Jotun Moose Rider, except that the first form has moose kick/antlers/light lance/short bow and the second has only moose kick/antlers/spear.

Hakkapelite: 40gp/14res cavalry with knight stats, light armor and broad sword/hoof/lance/shield. Their defence is a respectable 18.

The sacred units I've thought about are already in in some form or another. I considered just copying Marverni Boar Warriors, making them available everywhere and lowering the cost to 23 gp or so.


Mages:
(Hiisi) Sorcerer: 85gp. FWD and WDN randoms. Cheap researchers, recruitable everywhere, at least W2, D2, FN can be useful. W2D1 gives access to Näkki, a national amphibious mini-thug with water and death. I might also make Bogarus Rusalka (W1D1 to summon, W1D1 seducer) summonable.

Bear Tribe Shaman: 110 gp sacred. N2, NE 100% random, E 50% random. These might still change, but the idea is that they can cast a spell that summons a Gnome, with higher earth access. I'm not sure if they should have access to E2 via their innate randoms or not.

Wiseman: 160 gp. F1W1N2 FWN 100% random. Because they have either F2, W2F1 or N3 they'll always be able to do something worthwhile in the battlefield, unlike, say, Golem Crafters of MA Agartha who always wall a little short.

Spellsinger: 270 gp. Currently at F2D1N2, two 100% FDN randoms. They had Water for a long time and might get it back. They're magic beings, recruitable anywhere and have magic resistance 12.

[Lingchih]

Very nice. I like the Spellsinger especially. I think they should definitely get water back, at least as a random, for that price.

[Endoperez]

The thing is, if they get Water, they have less of the other paths, or a total of eight paths. I had them at FDN, FWDN, 50% W randoms. If I calculated that right, half of them would have W1, one in eigth W2.

At the moment, compared to e.g. Black Sorcerers of Machaka, they're 20 gp more expensive, have more magic picks even without water, get to higher levels with just their randoms, aren't vulnerable to old age and are recruitable everywhere. I'm more worried about having to tone them down than about them being too weak.

[Sombre]

The huntsman sounds a bit good. Crossbow melee AND shield?

[Endoperez]

Sombre said:
The huntsman sounds a bit good. Crossbow melee AND shield?




And body protection 11, head 9. Note high encumberance. Shield is in because I took the graphic from MA Man axeman. Still, I could lower the melee stats further.

Vaetti archers (8 gp for size 1 archer) should also be good.

[Endoperez]

I'm not sure about the name, because of the Estonian epic Kalevipoeg means, more or less, son of Kalev, and he's a giant. I think I'll incorporate him as a hero, along with Väinämöinen (great singer and mage) and Ilmarinen (great smith, made the sky). If anyone here happens to know more about Estonian legends, I'm open for suggestions.

ATM, I'm still unsure about the unit lineup. ATM I'm trying to see what kind of military Estonia had in the middle ages, but haven't had much luck.


I'm also starting to think I'll want to add in some magical horses. ATM I'm thinking of a horse with magical hoof that deals extra 6 AP fire damage (fiery horses breathing flames out of their nostrils were mentioned in Kalevala few times). Again, open for suggestions.

[HoneyBadger]

Endoperez, you might try posting inquiries in other game sites where you're likely to find historical military experts-like the Total War forums and the Civilization forums, for example, but I'll try to find out what I can, too.

By the way, I'm assuming this is meant to be *before* Estonia joined the Livonian Confederation? (circa. 1228 ad) and I'll base my research on that, until told differently.

[Endoperez]

I had a great discussion with my father. Some of his ideas were too detailed for even Total War, but it was great nonetheless.

I'd rather add something that would seem familiar to someone from Estonia than something that's historically correct. The problem is that peasant armies are useless in Dominions, and using huskarls feels like a cop-out.



To do:

shield guy; huskarl or pic+stat
Stealthy lasso guy (with entangling one-shot weapon); pic+stat
Removing the shield from stealthy crossbow guy; pic
Moose riders to reindeer corps? (http://besudtour.com/tours.html); pic
Compact description of the flaming hooves of Hakkapelite cavalry; stat
Heroes (Väinämöinen, Kalevipoeg); stat
Heroes (Sage-smith Ilmarinen); pic+stat

Two heroes, all commanders, three summons, few other national spells and about half of the unit roster ready.

[HoneyBadger]

I tend to use peasant armies, actually...if they're supported properly, they deal out some damage, and act as a nice cushion for heavier hitting units to attack without getting slaughtered.
By the way, it's my thought-factual or otherwise-that lasso-men would carry more than one lasso into battle, maybe as many as 3 of them.

Endoperez, if you could transcribe your conversation with your father, (preserve it for posterity?) I for one would love to know the details. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Lingchih]

Please don't leave out Kullervo, the anti-hero,

[Endoperez]

Since Kullervo, all of his family and all of his enemies are dead, I'm not sure what I can do with him. I'm not sure I want to cheapen his death by having him as an undead. Besides, the nation is already going to get four mage-heroes and one thug (possibly multi-) hero, and I'm not sure if any more are needed.

[Endoperez]

I'll release an initial version soon. I'd like to give them some more recruitables, but I hope their existing ones are enough. I want a better name, though. This isn't about Kalevala, but about mythological Finland. I can't use "Sons of Kaleva" either, because that'd refer to giants.

I might use Arnfinnr. It comes from old Norse saying "To do an Arnfinn" - to utterly beat an opponent in every way possible. :D I'd like to release it as soon as possible, so suggestions are welcome. Especially from Finns, and especially if any of the new Finns here happen to be university professors of Finnish language, pre-christian myths and military. :D

[Lingchih]

Well done Endo. I can't wait to play it. Thanks much.

[HoneyBadger]

I'm not Finnish-not very anyway, although there's certainly some old Norse blood in me.

The only thing I can really add, if you're looking for names, is that I often take words from ancient languages, or languages that I don't speak, and name units after words that *might* refer/apply/invoke them. It's hard, without years of devoted study (more than really is necessary just to make a decent mod) to convert any historical society into a Dominions nation, without losing some...reality(for lack of a better word) in the translation. But, as long as you respect your source, to the best of your ability, you can give it a proper homage, without having a degree in the language.

If a Romanian/Dacian/Kurgan linguistics professor ever plays my Cimmeria mod, they'll probably laugh at me, but atleast they'll maybe get the joke.
And I like to think that in some small part, I'm paying tribute to people, their culture and their language, that I'm to helping keep from being forgotten, which is important to me.

For example: 'Rautiainen' in Finnish-as far as I can find out-means "Blacksmith" or "from the family of a blacksmith". So if I were making a Finnish nation, and I had a spot for a commander with forging-or a big strapping soldier unit-I might name them "Rautianen". To further connect the non-commander unit to the meaning of the word, I might give them a small 5% forging bonus, if they were GORed. It's a minor advantage, but it still stays true-on some level, however shallow-to my desire to respect my source.

Fortunately, we've got Endoperez on the job, and I'm sure you can do a much better overall job than I ever could, because you have the motivation of your heritage. But it's always nice to "fill the gaps" with as close as you can get, linguistically, and if you can do that without pulling out all your hair, what's the harm?

[Jarkko]

Possible names:

Singersmiths

Ukkoseppo

Salon herrat or perhaps Salon Herra

Or perhaps Saloseppo

Incidently, you are aware that Lönnroth changed "Veen emonen" to "Väinämöinen"? Thus "Mother of Waters" turned to an old man with a with a funny instrument. Lönnroth had apparently decided it was not good to have a female creator/hero.

[Endoperez]

Incidently, you are aware that Lönnroth changed "Veen emonen" to "Väinämöinen"? Thus "Mother of Waters" turned to an old man with a with a funny instrument. Lönnroth had apparently decided it was not good to have a female creator/hero.

This is the first I've heard of this. There are many poems in which the main character is a male sorcerer, and in which "Veen emonen" wouldn't fit, but Lönnrot could have changed it in few places. Perhaps the creation myth, where Väinämöinen is born from Ilmatar (air-ess, feminine personification of air) and then completes the creation of the world. Female creator-god might have been too controversial in Lönnrot's time.


Thanks for the suggestions.

[Jarkko]

This is the first I've heard of this. There are many poems in which the main character is a male sorcerer, and in which "Veen emonen" wouldn't fit, but Lönnrot could have changed it in few places. Perhaps the creation myth, where Väinämöinen is born from Ilmatar (air-ess, feminine personification of air) and then completes the creation of the world. Female creator-god might have been too controversial in Lönnrot's time.

It is well known and accepted fact that Lönnrot wrote many of the poems himself to make the story "better".

Btw, in the 1950s Martti Haavio, a well known linguistic researched, proved (or "proved", your choice :) ) wrong the assumotion that Veen Emonen and Väinämöinen are the same. It was apparently too controversial even in 50's if it had been proved our beloved figure Väinämöinen was in fact a female originally :) Anyway, the matter has again only recently been brought to light, and it may never be accepted as such.

Michael Agricola in 16th century listed Veen Emonen (or "Veden Emo", as he called her) as one of the mythological figures of Finland, but he did not for some reason list Väinämöinen. Personally I view that as the strongest proof, but then again what I think or don't think doesn't have that much of an impact on the linguistics :)

[Endoperez]

It is well known and accepted fact that Lönnrot wrote many of the poems himself to make the story "better".

Michael Agricola in 16th century listed Veen Emonen (or "Veden Emo", as he called her) as one of the mythological figures of Finland, but he did not for some reason list Väinämöinen. Personally I view that as the strongest proof, but then again what I think or don't think doesn't have that much of an impact on the linguistics :)

Agricola's list mentions Väinämöinen according to Wikipedia article about him (V, not A).

I found a newspaper article from 1820s that mentions Väinämöinen. This is years before Lönnrot had started collecting songs.
http://agricola.utu.fi/hist/kktk/viikkosanomat/TSV1820-11.html

The stories have the same feel as the ones told in Kalevala, except that Joukkavainen (compare to Joukahainen, Youkahainen) is his brother in one of the stories. They still meet and fight in another story. Before Kalevala, there must have been almost as many variations as there were storytellers.

I had written a longer post, but the forum arnfinnored it. I'll make a new thread to release the mod.



EDIT: Please move discussion about the mod to this thread (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=40388), to avoid bumping this one.

[HoneyBadger]

Bump-Endoperez, how are things going on this?

[Endoperez]

Bump-Endoperez, how are things going on this?

I don't think I've done anything since the little update (the mod now uses unitNRs 3800+ and works with worthy heroes/Conceptual Balance) few weeks ago. I might write some descriptions now, but I won't have my own PC (or Dom3, or manual/modding manual, or Gimp) until I have to go back to school next week. Good descriptions are one of the things this mod needs, but I don't know if I can write anything coherent.


P.S. You bumped the wrong thread. :p Here's a link to the new one, with 0.87 available for download, and the latest discussions.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=40388

[HoneyBadger]

Huh...I *thought* you'd come out with a playable version, but there wasn't a downloadable file on this one, so I figured maybe you needed a bump :)

[Endoperez]

It seems I didn't provide a link when I edited the first post... :doh: