Better Independents v2.1

[Edi]

I recall making some threats about restoring an improved version of the Better Independents mod, so I figured right now would be a good time to do it.

The Better Independents mod aims to improve the SP experience against the AI by reducing the hordes of chaff the AI tends to amass, forcing it instead to rely far more on national troops and some of the better quality independent units. This goal is achieved by artificially limiting the selection of units available and eliminating the undesirable ones as an option so they cannot be recruited.

There three variations of this mod:
The first one eliminates units by increasing their gold cost to 9000 and resource cost to 800.
The second variant only increases the gold cost of affected units.
The third variant only increases the resource cost to 800. This mod has reportedly had problems with the AI not being deterred by the resource cost and ending up with queues of units that take forever to clear unless canceled.

The mod file itself has a section of comments in the beginning, so it is advised that you read those to see if the mod is what you are looking for.

This second version of the BI Mod is a tad less drastic than the earlier one, which eliminated virtually all independent units. After reading several forum discussions and playing some games with the mod (BI Gold), it became clear that not quite such draconian measures are called for. The original mod limited EA nations the most because nearly all archers were disabled. Archers being important to also augment heavier troops, this has been changed.

All archer units are once more enabled in Better Independents v2, as well as some marginally useful units from other poptypes (such as the tribals). This means that there will be AI hordes where independent units still play a role, but it is much reduced. Archer hordes will be very prominent, though, but this is not a bad thing, because it helps the AI more than hinders it. It also makes EA games more tolerable, because otherwise there would be no independent missile units available.

Ryo Akashi was kind enough to provide me with mod code that copies these units to other slots and resets the recruitment of affected nations so the indies can be disabled. I have used a modified version which disables the independent slinger (50) and the light cavalry. Militia 30 is only disabled via increased resource cost because it can appear from events, so a gold cost disabling would bankrupt anyone who got the regular militia event.

This bit of code uses the currently unused unit numbers 1454 (Unused Ancient One), 385 (Lady of Fortune) and 601 (Daughter of the Land).

The old thread is here (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=518972)

Any feedback and observations of the pros and cons of this mod are welcome.



UPDATE!

Version 2.1 enables the standard independent commanders and also enables Jaguar Tribe Warrior, which turned out to be an even more useful unit than the Jaguar Tribe Slinger, though that usefulness depends on the nation you play and is often situational.

This means that if you can recruit units out of a province, you can also recruit a commander out of that same province. Barbarians and Horse Tribe are the only poptypes where nothing can be recruited (though some indies with a bad combination of militia, light infantry and heavy infantry (the weakest type) only allow commanders.

Version 2.1 is also compatible with Worthy Heroes. Version 2.0 was not because they both used the Golden Naga for different purposes, but that conflict has been resolved.

Version 2.1 attachment is included and replaces the v2.0 attachment previously attached to this post.

[Meglobob]

Thanks for this Edi, I will try to do some testing.

[MaxWilson]

Thanks, I've used BI extensively and found that it really helps the AI. I'll give this one a shot.

[hunt11]

thanks for updating the mod, the only problem i see is that in a few provinces some of the units have their original cost

[Endoperez]

So... how good results do you get from this? Does it help AI in the early game, or does the benefit continue to middle game?

[QXel]

Thanks Edi.

A quick download, and I will try it at once!

I'm back home, I have diner, and it is evening gaming time ...

Let's try it.

[Edi]

I am officially a bonehead. I've reuploaded the attachment. The mod has banner pics, but I'd moved them to a subfolder, then forgot to include it in the zip file. That's been corrected now. Sorry about the hassle.

[Alderanas]

the only problem i ever had was when i played as lanka the little tiny monkies destroyed my economy when they joined my army bankrupting my nation in one turn.

[Alderanas]

im not sure if what i just said is for this mod or the no independant mod

[Edi]

Alderanas said:
the only problem i ever had was when i played as lanka the little tiny monkies destroyed my economy when they joined my army bankrupting my nation in one turn.


Monkeys are no longer modded in this version for precisely that reason.

[Agrajag]

Thanks for the mod, will try it out later http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[MaxWilson]

Endoperez said:
So... how good results do you get from this? Does it help AI in the early game, or does the benefit continue to middle game?



I'm not sure what you consider the "midgame" but I was doing pretty well in a recent game as Helheim against 4 or 5 AIs. I had researched up to Cloud of Death and was winning my wars against Lanka and one other nation when Ulm declared war on me too. "Poor little Ulm!" I cackled and got ready to lay some Cloud of Death down on their little MR-less troops. And then they started raining down Steel Maidens on me--I had forgotten how good they are for their cost. After a year or so of warfare I think I was stalemated--I could have turtled and gone for SCs and still eventually won, but I decided I had made a strategic mistake by not paying proper attention to geography and national borders and I conceded defeat and started a new game. I don't always lose to the AI(s) but it happens fairly frequently if I don't take a humongous lead in early expansion. I don't know if that's just because I'm a poor player, but I don't think it used to happen before I started using the NI/BI mods.

So yes, I think it improves the AIs in midgame. I think if Ulm had been raining militia and barbarians on me I would have annihilated them quite easily.

-Max

[Ballbarian]

I plan on giving this a spin in my next game. Thanks Edi!

(Oh, and in case I don't catch you before hand: Enjoy your well earned vacation!)

[DaveCG]

Many thanks for this Edi, I loved (and still use) BI and too noticed that the AI was much improved, as in no more hordes of death monkeys, anyway thanks!

[Edi]

Thanks for the feedback guys. Keep it coming! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

MaxWilson, EA Ulm with BI is brutal, precisely because it seems to prefer Steel Maidens and Warrior Maidens to the other stuff and has a decent smattering of Iron Warriors mixed in for heavy hitting. I'm fighting it now in a co-op hotseat game where I play Abysia and the attrition is chewing up my infantry at a pretty good clip. That's with somewhere around 12-15 Salamanders and 2-3 Rhuaxites per army raining fire down on the AI, no SCs. I had one smaller army almost obliterated because they just kept on coming. Without large squads of E9F6 blessed Burning Ones I'd be looking at a whole different picture. Ulm actually chewed Fomoria up and rolled over it like it wasn't there. If the map approaches to my territory weren't through only two bottlenecks, I'd have been history long ago.

[hunt11]

It is so refreshing to not need massive armies, SC or massive spells to actually win against the AI

[Edratman]

I scanned the dm files and it looks very well thought out. The indies you left are pretty much the ones I recruit.

I'm at the 45 minute/turn portion of my current game, which is about my limit, so tonight I'll start a new game with version 1.

[Edratman]

OOPs, double entry deleted. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif

[HoneyBadger]

Great work, Edi, as usual.

To balance out the theme, does anyone have any suggestions for units to add in, to help the AI, rather than taking away units which don't?

[MaxWilson]

Okay, my assessment after playing with v2.0 for a week or so and spying on the AI armies fighting each other:

I think allowing archer indies improves AI armies significantly, precisely because missile troops scale well. I just watched EA R'lyeh attack MA Jotunheim, for instance, and get smeared because there were about 70 deer tribe archers mixed in with the Jotun PD + troops. At the same time, you don't see armies composed ENTIRELY of deer tribe archers--the nationals are used where they make sense, and EA Ulm doesn't really use indies at all (preferring the Ulmish archer-maidens instead). So yeah, I think this improves the AI further.

I don't know if it's necessarily more *challenging* because allowing archer recruitment helps me out significantly too. I may (or may not) go back to No Independents on thematic grounds[1]. However, BI was conceived as an AI booster and on that level v2.0 is a definite improvement. Nice work!

-Max

[1] I have mixed feelings about having squads of Woodsmen and Deer Tribe archers mixed in among my Human Slingers and Bashanites. On the one hand, I *did* conquer those lands and conscript the inhabitants, and arguably that's more logical than me building a castle there and suddenly having a pool of Rephaim to conscript in that province. On the other hand, it papers over a weakness in the nation that I should perhaps have to live with (slingers have poor range and have a nasty habit of advancing practically into melee range of one or another enemy group if you leave them scripted to anything but "fire closest").

[Edratman]

After a couples days of playing I changed all indy commanders back to standard costs because I was having troubles ferrying good indy troops and assumed the AI would have the same difficulty. AI seems to expand slightly better now.

[Alderanas]

I was playing a game last night in LA. I was a mod nation named theran the reign of the vampiri if you know it. I was fighting against LA abysia and got smashed when i attacked an army containing crossbowmen and archers because they held my vampirir hoards off with heavy abysian infantry while they peppered me with arrows and bolts. I love 2.0 it works great in my oppinion.

[DaveCG]

Going great so far, been playing a hotseat game with a friend and LA utgard seems to like the hev inf and crossbow men, and mixed in with it's giants are pretty damn strong, so far so good, shame that the silly sods still keep charging his LA man army of defenders and longbow men with out the mages, ah well, can't have everything.

A.I seems to be expanding fine on mine, everyone's got lots of provinces, the only thing (nothing to do with BI) is that my friend went with a 10 dom SC and is basically dom killing all the A.I's, shame they don't do anything about it.

[Zeldor]

Heh, I try playing with that + CBM + WH on and it seems it is also affected by some bug. I have full BI version on but there is also resource change for indies, so AI still recruits them... Without WH it is fine [and well, WH are included in CBM anyway]

[Edi]

That depends on what order it loads the mods in. The mod manual does say rather explicitly that different mods should not modify the same units or unpredictable results will happen.

In this case, the BI mod works correctly only if it loads last, because changes are applied in loading order and if there are conflicting orders in different mods (e.g. one sets #rcost 800 and the other #rcost 8), only the last to load is applied. If the two mods change different aspects of the same unit (e.g. one changes resistances and the otehr changes magic), there is no problem.

[Zeldor]

Oh yeah, I think I turned off BI for a whole and turned it on again in my last attempt.

[DakaSha]

can somebody tell me why independent units in one province will have their normal cost and the mods cost in the province right next to it?

i really want to try this out because the AI pisses me off but something doesnt seem right. i turned off cbm to make sure its not that.

btw how do i get BI to load last? just rename it to ZBI?


edit: im sorry i forgot that militias arnt changed. i feel like an idiot http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[DakaSha]

no wait..

seriously im playing a game right now and in SOME provinces the miltia are 9k + 800 rec and the other units are normal priced

and in other provinces the militia are normal price and thje other units are 9k + 800 rec

im not kidding. am i doing somthing wrong? id really like to use this mod

edit: ok i checked the .dm
i guess certain units like militia and light infantry have different versions.. i wasnt even aware of this as i dont use those type of independents.

so i guess the militia is sometimes expensive and sometimes normal because there are two types and the one that is left unchanged is the one u recieve in events.

and i suppose its intentional that units like the light infantry with the javelin are left unchanged?

[Edi]

The light infantry with the javelin is left unchanged because it's a decent unit that can be useful. It is better than some similar national units (peltast for Arco, for example).

I would love to turn off that one militia type that is currently recruitable, but unfortunately that is impossible. There is an event that gives militia to a nation, so if I modded them to cost 9000 gold, they would have an upkeep of 600 each and getting 60 of those guys via event would mean instant bankruptcy.

The point of the mod is not to turn off all independents, but to leave the better, more useful units in the game. If they crappy ones are unavailable, the AI is more likely to recruit national troops instead of hordes of chaff.

I hope that helps. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[DakaSha]

yeah i played a game and the computer owned me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

and yeah the reason i chose this over NI id because i think independents add alot of flavour

and it was soooooo cool to get my *** kicked by jotuns and goblins instead of kicking (more) militia and light infantry ***. the nations actually use their units. alot more fun heh.

also the ai is harder now. its still insanly stupid of course but now itll at least win when it does attack with 300+ units

it even taught me how insanely strong a horde of archers can be http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

anyways thanks for the mod its made SP alot more fun

[Zeldor]

Fomoria still owns me every time I try to play with that mod in EA http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Edi]

Try playing against Hinnom... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

Seriously, I ran into an AI Hinnom with mostly positive scales (including growth) and until I managed to crush his main armies, I was in serious trouble. The chariots were brutal. I was playing Abysia and it was the E9F6 Burning Ones and absolutely massive fireball spam that carried the day. If I'd had just one other nation attack me at the same time, I'd have been done for. And that was in an allied game.

[Edratman]

This is a great mod and I use it all the time.

I have found that the AI seems to perform best when I set both gold and resources to 200 or higher. (I have not done all the increments or combinations below 200.)

What settings do you think work best?

Also I have changed the mod a little by returning all commanders to normal gold/resource costs.

[Edi]

I'm planning on updating it so that normal commanders will be normal price, but Horse Tribe Chief and Barbarian Chief will stay unavailable like their units. That way you can always recruit a commander wherever you can recruit units.

[llamabeast]

Could you change the graphics of the affected units to point to an empty graphic, so that they are not even visible on the recruitment screen?

[llamabeast]

Sorry, that was an idle thought, not a request! Could be cool though.

[Edi]

I suppose I could. That's an easy thing to do. Good idea, llamabeast! Great idea, in fact! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Zeldor]

Edi:

Nah, don't enable indy commanders. AI recruits more mages or stronger national commanders that way.

[DakaSha]

is there a way to turn off the militia event?

[Edi]

No. I actually requested that a new militia unit be made for the generic militia event (which some nations get, some others have their own militia events that actually give useful units, like LA Abysia), but that did not happen. It was a fairly low probability feature request anyway, but it would have made it possible to completely eliminate recruitable militia from the game.

[Edratman]

Zeldor said:
Edi:

Nah, don't enable indy commanders. AI recruits more mages or stronger national commanders that way.



Fallacies with this:
1. Assumes that the AI does not recruit at castle because it recruited an indy commander.
2. The AI would have to spend precious turns with castle recruitable commanders picking up scattered good indy troops.
3. Minimizing commander count is not good. I can't count how many battles I have lost because I only used one commander and he was slain.
4. The AI can spend turns recruiting mages at castle instead of mundane troop commanders. (I do not know AI commander recruiting priorities, but if nothing else the probablity is better for a mage.)
5. Mundane indy military comanders have respectable to good stats.

[Endoperez]

llamabeast said:
Could you change the graphics of the affected units to point to an empty graphic, so that they are not even visible on the recruitment screen?



While an interesting thought, that'd also affect them in battles.

[Edratman]

Good thinking Endo. The units will still be available to indy provinces.

[Edi]

Endoperez said:

llamabeast said:
Could you change the graphics of the affected units to point to an empty graphic, so that they are not even visible on the recruitment screen?



While an interesting thought, that'd also affect them in battles.


Ah, damn. Invisible attacking hordes that spit javelins and become briefly visible when they attack. Though I might try that one just for kicks to see what it looks like... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[llamabeast]

Ah, poo.

[Edi]

Just found out that Better Independents 2.0 has conflicts with Worthy Heroes 1.8 and later, because WH uses the Golden Naga unit (334) as a Patala hero. The current BI mod copies light acavalry 26 to the 334 slot and uses it to replace the national recruitment light cavalries.

I've attached an updated version to the opening post that removes this conflict. The fixed version uses #1454 instead, the Unused Ancient One. Full changelog added to the OP.

[Edi]

I've made sure the attachment is updated to the latest spec. The version number is not changed, but the mod now shows up as the correct version in the list. The Golden Naga conflict with Worthy Heroes has also been checked to be fixed.

[Loren]

Got a big financial problem here: It's not as bad as the militia but it ran my expenses up to 25k/turn (I have Gift of Nature's Bounty up, I could just barely afford it) before I figured it out.

I haven't pinned down the offending unit yet but I suspect it's a knight. I was using an army of seraphs to take some provinces the AI had lost to indie monsters. Seraph = S4 mage = Enslave. I ended up with some of the random event monsters in my army.

I am not sure that that's the only culprit as I'm still at 18k and trying to drown as many pests as I can. (I am at peace in that part of the world, I can't just suicide them against the neighbors.)

[SlipperyJim]

Got a big financial problem here: It's not as bad as the militia but it ran my expenses up to 25k/turn (I have Gift of Nature's Bounty up, I could just barely afford it) before I figured it out.

I haven't pinned down the offending unit yet but I suspect it's a knight. I was using an army of seraphs to take some provinces the AI had lost to indie monsters. Seraph = S4 mage = Enslave. I ended up with some of the random event monsters in my army.

I am not sure that that's the only culprit as I'm still at 18k and trying to drown as many pests as I can. (I am at peace in that part of the world, I can't just suicide them against the neighbors.)
And that's why I use the Resource-Only version of the mod. Edi made three versions available with the mod. One version leaves gold cost alone, but it increases the resource cost of all "junk" indy units by 800. That way, the AI won't ever recruit the junk ... but I won't go into bankruptcy because of a lucky Charm spell or some other occurrence.

As far as I can tell, the Resource-Only version of the mod works great. I'm fighting against national troops, reinforced by the occasional indy missile troop. (The AI really seems to like tribal archers.) It's made the game a lot more interesting ... and a bit more challenging.

[Edi]

Got a big financial problem here: It's not as bad as the militia but it ran my expenses up to 25k/turn (I have Gift of Nature's Bounty up, I could just barely afford it) before I figured it out.

I haven't pinned down the offending unit yet but I suspect it's a knight. I was using an army of seraphs to take some provinces the AI had lost to indie monsters. Seraph = S4 mage = Enslave. I ended up with some of the random event monsters in my army.

I am not sure that that's the only culprit as I'm still at 18k and trying to drown as many pests as I can. (I am at peace in that part of the world, I can't just suicide them against the neighbors.)
The event militia aren't cost altered. Most chaff indies are. Knights are normal price, but the worst of the three heavy cavalry costs a lot. If you have any non-archer tribals, any light cav, those are bad. Check the mod file to see what's modified, then check all the indies the seraph got for you.

The resource version was made specifically to address astral nations and Enslave Mind so the spell can be used without instant bankruptcy.

[Loren]

Got a big financial problem here: It's not as bad as the militia but it ran my expenses up to 25k/turn (I have Gift of Nature's Bounty up, I could just barely afford it) before I figured it out.

I haven't pinned down the offending unit yet but I suspect it's a knight. I was using an army of seraphs to take some provinces the AI had lost to indie monsters. Seraph = S4 mage = Enslave. I ended up with some of the random event monsters in my army.

I am not sure that that's the only culprit as I'm still at 18k and trying to drown as many pests as I can. (I am at peace in that part of the world, I can't just suicide them against the neighbors.)
The event militia aren't cost altered. Most chaff indies are. Knights are normal price, but the worst of the three heavy cavalry costs a lot. If you have any non-archer tribals, any light cav, those are bad. Check the mod file to see what's modified, then check all the indies the seraph got for you.

The resource version was made specifically to address astral nations and Enslave Mind so the spell can be used without instant bankruptcy.

I have confirmed it's not knights. I just drowned one and my support didn't go down. I still haven't found the unit. I'll get the resource-only version of the mod.


???? I would have thought it would be in this thread but I don't see it. Where is it?

[Edratman]

Loren,
Go to Llama'a sticky "Map and Mod Browser".

It is a wonderful resource.

[Edi]

Got a big financial problem here: It's not as bad as the militia but it ran my expenses up to 25k/turn (I have Gift of Nature's Bounty up, I could just barely afford it) before I figured it out.

I haven't pinned down the offending unit yet but I suspect it's a knight. I was using an army of seraphs to take some provinces the AI had lost to indie monsters. Seraph = S4 mage = Enslave. I ended up with some of the random event monsters in my army.

I am not sure that that's the only culprit as I'm still at 18k and trying to drown as many pests as I can. (I am at peace in that part of the world, I can't just suicide them against the neighbors.)
The event militia aren't cost altered. Most chaff indies are. Knights are normal price, but the worst of the three heavy cavalry costs a lot. If you have any non-archer tribals, any light cav, those are bad. Check the mod file to see what's modified, then check all the indies the seraph got for you.

The resource version was made specifically to address astral nations and Enslave Mind so the spell can be used without instant bankruptcy.

I have confirmed it's not knights. I just drowned one and my support didn't go down. I still haven't found the unit. I'll get the resource-only version of the mod.


???? I would have thought it would be in this thread but I don't see it. Where is it?

First post. The attachment there has all three versions of the mod. Or it should, seeing as I just checked and it was fine.

[Loren]

Loren,
Go to Llama'a sticky "Map and Mod Browser".

It is a wonderful resource.

What should I be looking for?

[Edratman]

As Edi pointed out, the mod is in the very first post of this thread.

Llama's list, which is both maps and mods is accessible also in the very first post of the sticky.

[Loren]

As Edi pointed out, the mod is in the very first post of this thread.

Llama's list, which is both maps and mods is accessible also in the very first post of the sticky.

I figured it out now--I was looking for a separate mod, I didn't realize they were all part of the same thing.

[Edi]

As Edi pointed out, the mod is in the very first post of this thread.

Llama's list, which is both maps and mods is accessible also in the very first post of the sticky.

I figured it out now--I was looking for a separate mod, I didn't realize they were all part of the same thing.
I like packaging things in bundles if they are related. :)

[JimMorrison]

Not sure if this has been mentioned before -

I've seen references to the potential problem with the Resource Only version of BI. It occurred to me that if the gold costs were reduced to "1" for all troops effected by the mod, then it wouldn't really hamper the computer very much if it filled up all of its queues with forbidden units.

[Edi]

Not sure if this has been mentioned before -

I've seen references to the potential problem with the Resource Only version of BI. It occurred to me that if the gold costs were reduced to "1" for all troops effected by the mod, then it wouldn't really hamper the computer very much if it filled up all of its queues with forbidden units.
Then it WOULD fill up those queues with the chaff at every opportunity instead of just sometimes, so no go.

[JimMorrison]

That's my point, though. At difficulties above normal, 100g/province is nothing to the AI. The filling of the queues is not a problem in and of itself, it's the gold that is tied up that is the problem. At 1g per unit, the "problem" should effectually disappear.

< shrug > Maybe I'll just give it a test (when I can pry myself away from Fallout to do Dom3 SP), and let you know.....

[Edi]

That's my point, though. At difficulties above normal, 100g/province is nothing to the AI. The filling of the queues is not a problem in and of itself, it's the gold that is tied up that is the problem. At 1g per unit, the "problem" should effectually disappear.

< shrug > Maybe I'll just give it a test (when I can pry myself away from Fallout to do Dom3 SP), and let you know.....
Yes, it would then recruit nothing BUT the unrecruitable chaff and end up with no troops, which is the problem I'm talking about.

[JimMorrison]

That's my point, though. At difficulties above normal, 100g/province is nothing to the AI. The filling of the queues is not a problem in and of itself, it's the gold that is tied up that is the problem. At 1g per unit, the "problem" should effectually disappear.

< shrug > Maybe I'll just give it a test (when I can pry myself away from Fallout to do Dom3 SP), and let you know.....
Yes, it would then recruit nothing BUT the unrecruitable chaff and end up with no troops, which is the problem I'm talking about.


What would it do with all of its extra money then? Queues are limited to 100 units, which is the mechanic I am banking on here. Once saturated, the AI should shift to more accessible units as long as it has gold, no?

[Edi]

That's my point, though. At difficulties above normal, 100g/province is nothing to the AI. The filling of the queues is not a problem in and of itself, it's the gold that is tied up that is the problem. At 1g per unit, the "problem" should effectually disappear.

< shrug > Maybe I'll just give it a test (when I can pry myself away from Fallout to do Dom3 SP), and let you know.....
Yes, it would then recruit nothing BUT the unrecruitable chaff and end up with no troops, which is the problem I'm talking about.


What would it do with all of its extra money then? Queues are limited to 100 units, which is the mechanic I am banking on here. Once saturated, the AI should shift to more accessible units as long as it has gold, no?
Read the damned mod file before making pronouncements. There are disabled chaff and recruitable units mixed in the poptypes, which means that when it gets a choice, it will go for the cheaper but unproducable unit over the normally priced, unmodified unit if gold is weighted too much. If you're so curious about it, then run a test on it yourself and tell me the results.

Bottom line: I am NOT interested in making your suggested alterations. The reason for that is that the mod as it currently stands works well enough. So I'm not going to waste any more time on it.

[JimMorrison]

Woah, easy on the blood pressure there, Edi. <3

I did state a few posts back that I'd probably just get in there and try it myself, and let you know. ;) But you kept discussing it. :P

I haven't played that much with BI, but from what I saw, it seemed like there weren't entirely that many pop-types that had disabled units mixed with un-modded units. I just thought (from what I saw) that the problem for the AI was that it filled the queue with the cheap units anyways, which then dumped 1000+ gold per province that it did so in, which then directly impacted their ability to field large forces at all.

Maybe I haven't seen enough to judge clearly, but all I know is that personally (I love Enslave Mind), I don't find the Full/Gold versions acceptable, so I was just brainstorming on what could be done with the Resource version to avoid the problems that I and others had seen.

But again, you don't need to worry about it, when I get the time to do so, I will experiment a bit more with the current version, and then some with a modified version, and I will let you know how they compare in performance.

[Xietor]

I am playing a sp game, and forgive me for not reading the entire thread. It looks great so far, but I am going to post any suggestions I have as I run across them.

Lizard warriors can be a good unit at times, due to their above average mr, morale, strength, low resource cost and 2 attacks.

They are good against Ryleh because they are fast, have good mr, and kill stuff quickly when they reach them. Good to tear down walls because they are str 11 and you can get tons of them quickly.

However, they are not good in the front lines charging into missile fire-and that may be how the AI uses them. And that may be why they are disabled. It does handicap the player to not to be able to use them, but that does make for a better challenge.

But it is a great idea on improving sp, and i am looking forward to seeing how the game progresses. Thanks Edi.

[SlipperyJim]

I haven't played that much with BI, but from what I saw, it seemed like there weren't entirely that many pop-types that had disabled units mixed with un-modded units. I just thought (from what I saw) that the problem for the AI was that it filled the queue with the cheap units anyways, which then dumped 1000+ gold per province that it did so in, which then directly impacted their ability to field large forces at all.
I've played several SP games with the Resource-Only version of Better Independents, and I simply don't see the problem you're describing. The Mighty AIs all fill their armies with national troops and the "decent" independents, and they still seem to field massive armies. It seems to work exactly as advertised.

But feel free to run your own tests. Too much data can't hurt. :)

[Foodstamp]

I ran into the same Problem Jim did in the past using this mod. When units are modded to being resource heavy, the AI still tries to make them.

This creates a situation where when the AI builds a new fortress, he fills it up with units he will never be able to create. In the end, he can only build units from his capital.

Overtime I found the AI easier to play against using the different variations of this mod because the AI force was so limited. True it fields national troops, but not a lot of them and exclusively from the capital once it fills up satelite fortresses with independents it cannot produce.

[iceboy]

I ran into the same Problem Jim did in the past using this mod. When units are modded to being resource heavy, the AI still tries to make them.

This creates a situation where when the AI builds a new fortress, he fills it up with units he will never be able to create. In the end, he can only build units from his capital.

Overtime I found the AI easier to play against using the different variations of this mod because the AI force was so limited. True it fields national troops, but not a lot of them and exclusively from the capital once it fills up satelite fortresses with independents it cannot produce.

Would this be corrected by using only the increased gold version of this mod?

[SlipperyJim]

Yes, the Gold-only version of the mod would fix that problem. However, the Gold-only version can lead to the earlier problem, in which using Charm (or whatever) to steal units can cripple you with upkeep.

Honestly, I have not seen any problems with the Resource-only version of Better Independents. I wonder what the difference between my games and these other games could be?

[iceboy]

Well darn it seems that the gold version bankrupts the AI and the resource version clogs up the AI build que with units it cannot produce. Im assuming the combined version does both? Hmmm this sounds like this mod hinders the AI more than it helps! :(

I wonder if there is a way to fix any of this?

[Edi]

I have never experienced either problem with the current version of the mod. Usually I have a devil of a time repelling the hordes of quality troops the AI throws at me.

I am also finding it curious that the AI gets bankrupted by the gold troops unless we're talking about heavy astral nations using enslave mind, or R'lyeh in the EA.

I've never seen the problem behavior, but if the people who have can think of a workaround, I'd be interested in hearing it.

[iceboy]

I have never experienced either problem with the current version of the mod. Usually I have a devil of a time repelling the hordes of quality troops the AI throws at me.

I am also finding it curious that the AI gets bankrupted by the gold troops unless we're talking about heavy astral nations using enslave mind, or R'lyeh in the EA.

I've never seen the problem behavior, but if the people who have can think of a workaround, I'd be interested in hearing it.

Hi Edi which version of the mod do you use?

[Edi]

The one that's behind the download link on my home pages, 2.1

[iceboy]

The one that's behind the download link on my home pages, 2.1

Oh sorry I meant resource, gold, or both?

[Edi]

I've used both of them, no problems, as well as the combo one.

[Loops]

I really like this mod and the idea behind it. Removing these suboptimal choices ahead of time is a great way to make the AI perform better.


I've never seen the problem behavior, but if the people who have can think of a workaround, I'd be interested in hearing it.

Right now modded units have a couple of worrisome potential/theoretical issues. If you (or an AI) somehow acquires them, the upkeep on 9000 gold units is ruinous. Similarly, the AI is feared to be (or perhaps demonstrably) foolish enough to clog its queues for practically forever with 800 resource units, if given the opportunity.

This probably isn't a new idea, but another approach to this mod, that removes these concerns I think, would be to remove the bad independent choices by turning those units into clones of a unit effective enough to stay unchanged currently. This means all of the choices would be available everywhere, but none of the units would be totally ill-advised options for AI to pick.

This wouldn't have to be some super creative balance mod to work. For example, just make all the lousy guy-with-a-stick variants into copies of the reasonable Light Infantry w/Javelin. Tribal and light cavalry variants could all turn into cataphracts or good heavy cavalry.

This solution isn't necessarily any better than what you have already. It would change the look and difficulty of a lot of the independent poptypes significantly. Game balance as a whole would change more, since good (or at least ok) units would be recruitable everywhere. Although on the bright side, you wouldn't have to worry about the possibility of clogged AI recruitment queues or bankrupting yourself with enslave.

Anyway, you asked for ideas so I thought I'd throw it out there. :)

[Snacktime]

So having become weary of the AI recruiting hordes of ridiculous independents, I added this mod. But it doesn't seem to work right for me. No matter which of the three mods I use, none of the independents in the territory are available at all, either at the amped up gold and resource costs or otherwise. The recruiting page is just empty of options in all non-castle territories. What gives? I'm using version 3.23b of the game (which is the latest patch) and 2.1 of the three mods (gold/resources/both). Kinda stumped!

[Snacktime]

Also I have no other mods so that's not it.

[Burnsaber]

You sure that you're not playing a "no-independents" map? Those have the independents eliminated by map commands.

[Edi]

You sure that you're not playing a "no-independents" map? Those have the independents eliminated by map commands.
This seems to hit the problem right on the nose, Snacktime. There are two ways of removing independents: By this mod, which restricts their availability via prohibitive cost, or by map commands (which requires a specific map file and eliminates ALL independents by assigning invalid poptypes to all provinces).

[sevenwarlocks]

This is the first mod I've downloaded, and it seems to work very well. I'm using the "gold" version, and the AI has been far more aggressive than before.

In the first game I played, Pythium was attacking me every turn by the end of the first year, with armies in the hundreds, sometimes in two or three places at once.