Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM. Game Over. Noobs Triumph!

[Septimius Severus]

Thanks for your input Cleveland. I like your map and I like your placement suggestions. If everyone is ok with these, let us use it and be done with it.

Hoplo, while your suggestions are good and appreciated, the irregularity of normal or random maps introduces placement issues that I just don't want to be bothered with this time. Having some water does provide some interesting strategic options even for land only nations. Symetrical maps probably make equi-distant and equally spaced placements (without regard to surrounding terrain and other biased factors) much easier and thus reduce the chance of any charges of unfairness or other such things.

Both teams (particularly the vet team) shall have the right to review the nations I place in these starting locales as suggested by cleveland and/or to specify which of their nations once assigned goes where. I hope this will be satisfactory for all.

Edit: the two centermost vets seem to be a bit off center though, I might shift them 1 province south, to make everything a bit more even and it may be best to move the noob out of the center and have 6 noobs north and six south. But otherwise everything else looks fine to me. But those are just my suggested revisions. If people don't want them, we can just go for Clevelands original placement.

[Hoplosternum]

Well fortunately we don't need as many starts as Cleveland has on his map so there would only be one noob at the back. We will just have to support the guy in the centre :p

[TheDemon]

I like both your suggestions Sept, especially if you're not comfortable putting one guy in the center. Whether you move him north or to the extra south position is up to you, if he goes north putting him at 231 places him in the north without crowding the starts already there. If he goes south there's the extra start that you could use.

[Septimius Severus]

Ideally, in a perfect world, with a perfect map, I'd like to have every nation x number of spaces from every other nation on their side and y number of spaces from the enemy, and so forth. So many spaces from the coast, etc. Mathematical as it were. No possiblity of unfairness. I think this is a good map because the left and right sides are mirror images of each other.

Hmmm, there are some issues with a nation or two on the noob side being in the rear, something I'd prefer not to have, but they'd still have access via water or I could shift arround the noob land starts for more land access. Still I think this map is the best compromise.

[namad]

i think that it is important that one team does not know where the other teams nations are... this is an important part of dominions3


however if you mean each team will be allowed to review their own placements or select their own placements that sounds cool... (with the start location public knowledge but the location of which nation is where not being so?right?)


no noob will be on the back line on this map... the place that looks like a back line is really just the waterfront!

[Septimius Severus]

i think that it is important that one team does not know where the other teams nations are... this is an important part of dominions3


however if you mean each team will be allowed to review their own placements or select their own placements that sounds cool... (with the start location public knowledge but the location of which nation is where not being so?right?)


no noob will be on the back line on this map... the place that looks like a back line is really just the waterfront!

That is correct namad, the general start locations of the noob and vet teams will be public knowledge (something which can be easily guessed anyway), but neither side will know which of the enemies nations is in each particular spot. Though I did want to place the vets to be in the center encircled by the noobs instead of the Cleveland's opposite side suggestion. Would the vets object if I came up with that sort of arrangement? It would mean the vets would not have immediate direct access to the water though and may cut out an important strategic element. I suspect the vets will be better at getting into the water (and staying there) than the noobs are anyway. :D

[cleveland]

I fixed it...Vets in the center :D
8361
If you put the Vets in the center of the landmass, the sea becomes irrelevant. And impossible for the Vets to capture late-game.

Well, while you are traveling, be sure to put the finishing touches on your much-anticipated MA Man guide. :)

Damn bourbon, always getting me to obligate myself to things I've no time for! We'll see...;)

[DrPraetorious]

My proposal would be - give each team one part of the map, and assign a captain to pick a start province for each nation/player, which is then not shared with the other team.

Or, if you don't want to give the vets an advantage in that the noobs might mess this up somehow, you could just assign starts to the noobs and then let the vets fiddle themselves around.

I fixed it...Vets in the center :D
8361
If you put the Vets in the center of the landmass, the sea becomes irrelevant. And impossible for the Vets to capture late-game.

Well, while you are traveling, be sure to put the finishing touches on your much-anticipated MA Man guide. :)

Damn bourbon, always getting me to obligate myself to things I've no time for! We'll see...;)

[TwoBits]

How about having the Vets in something of a line from north to south, with a bulge in the middle - something like this, perhaps:

--------------V
--------------
--------------V
-----------V-----V
--------------V
--------------
--------------V

Noobs could be dispersed in two crescents of 6 members each to the east and west. The Vets would have water access, and hopefully no Noob would get stuck in the rear, or in the middle of a s**t sandwich. Anyway to make that work?

[Raiel]

I very much like this suggestion of TwoBits on this map... it leaves very few provinces uncontestable and, if placed properly, could allow a little extra time before first contact.

[atul]

I'm so rooting for Cleveland's suggestion, it beautifully solves the problem in vet team in the middle, i.e. the water being left behind noobs. Exact positions can be fiddled with, but thus far I'd say it's the best suggestion.

I see a fatal flaw in TwoBit's suggestion, the crescent noob position is really weak in some regards. Rather wouldn't see that one.

[chrispedersen]

Your current setup gives the vets a huge advantage. I don't say you should alter it necessarily, but everyone should be aware of it.

A vet sea capable nation, like agartha or ermor has central access to water, a huge number of water provinces. Newb nations, even if sea capable would have vastly diminished access.

I would suggest using dead seas, giving virtually no advantage to owning those territories. (no recruitables, no income, no resources, no sites).

[Raiel]

Your current setup gives the vets a huge advantage. I don't say you should alter it necessarily, but everyone should be aware of it.

A vet sea capable nation, like agartha or ermor has central access to water, a huge number of water provinces. Newb nations, even if sea capable would have vastly diminished access.

I would suggest using dead seas, giving virtually no advantage to owning those territories. (no recruitables, no income, no resources, no sites).


This is one of the reasons I prefer TwoBits' suggestion.

The setup suggested by cleveland allows the vets to expand toward us, stifling our expansion, while saving that huge circle of uncontestable provinces for later.

TwoBits' suggestion requires/allows the vets to decide how to pursue this war rather than setting them up for an obvious approach.

Frankly, I suspect the noobs would be better served to set up like this:

---N
----
----N
-----
-N---N
-----
----N
----
---N

With a mirrored approach on the right side of the island. But that would hand us the HUGE backyard I just belly-ached about the vets having... :o

[atul]

A vet sea capable nation, like agartha or ermor has central access to water, a huge number of water provinces. Newb nations, even if sea capable would have vastly diminished access.

Excuse me, but I was wondering...

Wasn't skill difference between teams like, the point of the game? Hence the 2-to-1 outnumbering?

And still, putting up a noob nation distribution with far-away points is a bad idea. "Why" is left as an excercise to the reader.

[TheDemon]

Your current setup gives the vets a huge advantage. I don't say you should alter it necessarily, but everyone should be aware of it.

A vet sea capable nation, like agartha or ermor has central access to water, a huge number of water provinces. Newb nations, even if sea capable would have vastly diminished access.

I would suggest using dead seas, giving virtually no advantage to owning those territories. (no recruitables, no income, no resources, no sites).

That's true in a way, but what you're saying is that the vets will benefit from the sea more than the noobs because of their experience or because they're better players. In which case, isn't that the whole point? Under Cleveland's plan, both teams have equal access to the seas, and the noob team has much better access to the north/south parts which under this map have dozens of connections due to the polar cap. If the noobs aren't able to exploit or failing that raid 0-PD seas, improving their access won't help that at all.


Two-Bits suggestion is pretty good, but if the point is to balance the number of "uncontestable" provinces, then its pretty much a must that the noob team be placed in two crescents. I don't think it solves the seas problem either, the vet team still has access to the poles and we can place our amphibs there and have easy access to the oceans anyway. I can't see Raeil's suggestion being balanced for the reasons he mentioned. A formation (like a circle) that removes vet access to the seas is unbalanced because we don't get access to the seas. I don't see an easy solution to that particular issue.

[TheDemon]

How about these starts? Both teams are in semicircles, the noobs semicircles are bigger, both teams have a very small backfield. Both teams are forced to expand towards the center and towards each other. There's no weakness of a crescent formation, which is bad for the guys on the tips. I understand the less people have a position away from the front the better, but if you leave some space in between the two outer guys, your team should be able to get them to the front with some coordination. If we place all the caps in a semicircle, then you'll have too big of an uncontested area.

All I really did was adjust the starts in Cleveland's version backwards a little. The noob starts near the center appear close together but due to the prov connections they're actually somewhat separated. I included alternate starts in yellow if you want more separation between capitals.

[chrispedersen]

It seems the vets and newbs are set, so I'll back out. Thanks and good luck!

[namad]

what are the goals? what are the problems? if you don't want people fighting too soon you could always remove a line of neighboring connections between the rings... and force all combat to a) go through the middle or b) go through the sea?

or wait? what are the goals? what are the complaints? all these suggestions seem really similar? i have no idea what's really being discussed i guess... but hey i commented!

[TwoBits]

Hm, two semicircles for the Noobs leaves at least 4 players far behind the action - sure, allies can leave a 'tunnel' of territory toward the front, but that's pretty convoluted, probably causes dominion problems, and can be easy for the Vets to interdict (you can block that 'tunnel' anywhere along the length, cutting access to the front, or forcing the player to fight his way through allied territory).

The original 'hour-glass' formation is no good either, or at least it's certainly no good for the Noob in the middle of the hour-glass - he's certainly doomed right off the bat. Plus there's still the issue of Noob players stuck in the backfield.

I still think my 'linear-bulge' formation for the Vets is the most sensible way to go. It's the only set-up that gets everyone in the action without "tunneling" and other awkward strategies. And sure, the 4 Noobs at the 'horns' of the two crescents are in somewhat more vulnerable positions, but remember, they'll have teammate directly opposite the Vet they'll be facing to take some of the pressure off.

I'm not sure what people are talking about regarding the water 'poles', but if they (whatever they are) seem to be too much of an advantage for the Vets to exploit, the Vets can be deployed horizontally instead of vertically (or heck, diagonally for that matter).

[Unoptimized]

Huh, I thought I posted before, but my internet must have gone silly. Anyway, I'll happily play Shinuyama, and I'm sorry about all the delays. My return trip was slightly nightmarish.

[namad]

what backline? there is no backline only a waterfront... the backline can swing around the polar cap and attack from behind? i mean there is no way to arrange things on this map and not have a backline..... the only way to totally avoid backlines is with a map like zeldor's... with a highway system that reroutes the backline straight to the frontline and on zeldor's map this highway is "caves" on clevelands map it is "waterbased polar icecaps"


so...yeah... ?hrmm?

[TwoBits]

What do you mean by backline? Is that the same as 'backfield'? OK, sure, with a wraparound map, there is no hard back-line border. And sure, if you're playing Vanheim, or some other sailing race, you might be OK (although where can you sail to? the only land you can probably reach would be your teammate across the 'polar cap').

But if we go with TheDemon's set-up, if you're one of those 4 Noob teams 'stuck' behind your teammates (yes, in a land-centric view), you have to do a lot of awkward maneuvering to reach the front via land, or somehow get into the water, and then circle 90 degrees around the map, to get at the enemy - how long is that going to take? never, if you're say, Abyssia).

My 'linear-bulge/two-crescents' set-up is the nearest thing we're going to get to the ideal 'vets in the center of a circle of noobs' set-up with this map. No noob has to sit out of the action early on (or resort to difficult, complicated, and easily thwarted 'tunneling'), and the vets still get sea access (granted, with only two nations, but they can just put their strongest water/sailing powers at either end of the line).

Hey, just my two cents, but I know I would not like to be one of the 4 noobs who has to snake his way to the front, or sit on his thumbs staring at the water until he's forged/summoned an aquatic force.

[namad]

if the vets get a line down the center... and the noobs are not all placed along the sea that would end up giving the noobs a giant central location totally surrounded only by their own nations ... so...

the only way to even consider making the vets a central line would be to make all the noobs coastal... which would result in every noob being far away from every vet.... this would however limit the nature of having 4backline noobs but.... on a team of 12v6 4backline players is not that bad especially since they can make attempts to cross the ocean and aren't literally blocked in... i guess either or is fine with me though... it's just if i was on your team i'd want some backline players intentionally

[TheDemon]

Its not just the water polar caps, the southern ones are half land as well.

Anyway, here's the crescent starts. Like namad says, the noobs basically have to be all coastal, or else you're going to have to explain why an inland position is in any way fair. Could be workable. The two vets in the center are kind of close though, I'd like them to be farther apart as pushing back allied dominion is never fun.

You could also invert the formation I proposed, attached as well. That would get each noob onto the frontline, more or less.

[TwoBits]

That's why I suggested that the Vet's line "bulged" in the middle, with something akin to a diamond shape.

Yeah, I had some thoughts that it might be wise to have some 'production' nations in the rear, supposedly out of harms way. But the consensus was that that would lower the odds for those who had to slog it out on the front - with say 4 noobs in the rear, at the front the odds would only be 3-2 instead of 2-1.

[Septimius Severus]

It seems the vets and newbs are set, so I'll back out. Thanks and good luck! Still could use ya as vet alternate if you don't mind.

[Septimius Severus]

I'm glad to see everyone weighing in on this placement issue, even Dr. P had a word or two to say. Both TwoBits and TheDemon have valid arguments. TwoBits, what do you think of TheDemons last two thumbnails? Both of which lets us bring all our nations forces to bear via land routes.

[TheDemon]

Namad proposed something like this on IRC, and I'm inclined to agree. Less dominion-induced suicide for the vets, and more provinces in contention as the vets don't get a big interior. The offset starts aren't symetrical, but I think they're fairer.

The one attached to this post gets my vote.

[Septimius Severus]

TheDemon, repost that last thumbnail side by side with the second thumbnail from the previous post. Thanks.

[TheDemon]

Asymetrical Starts, Vets in Center (my vote):
http://i43.tinypic.com/10xrqqe.jpg

vs

Symetrical Starts, Noobs in Center crescents, Vets in Outside semicircles:
http://i43.tinypic.com/fx6p2c.jpg

I'm told at least one member of our team really opposes the 2nd one because they feel it gives the noobs too many uncontested provs.

[Septimius Severus]

Unoptimized has picked Shinuyama, we now await a final decision on placement and the vet team needs to PM me their list of nations.

We've a new noob alternate, Kietsensei.

[namad]

The 2nd version gives the noob team like four times as many uncontested provinces as the vet team in my estimation(didn't count). According to our counting the first version gives the noob team about 30uncontested land provinces to the vets 20or so while also giving the noobs much much better access to the sea provinces.


obviously I vote for the 1st version as it's what i suggested to thedemon on irc... also the 1st version has as was mentioned... fairly reduced risk of teammate domkills. Although I haven't personally verified the distances and neighboring counts of all the provinces I've checked many of them in this regard.

[Kietsensei]

Hello everyone,

I am looking forward to join the team. I hope there will be a spot to fill before the game start :) Otherwise I am ready to sub anyone in the noob team!

[Septimius Severus]

If you mean uncontested, as in more provinces in closer proximity to noob caps, we must remember that the noobs have twice as many players and require twice as much space to expand, and that might nullified by the noobs teams likely slower expansion rate.

I must say though, TheDemons two proposals look good at first glance, I must confer with my fellows and take a closer look at the map. Good work by all.

Version 1 puts more noobs in proximity to the water and there seems to be more space between friend and foe (one of my objectives). However version 2 does seem to follow the contours of the left/right symetry better and does seem to provide more room for noob expansion.

My objectives for placement are btw:

1. Maximum distance between friend and foe.
2. Equi-distant placement of starting locations.
3. Noob team can bring all 12 nation's land forces to bear on the vets.

Noobs, take a look at those two suggestions by TheDemon and let me know what you think. Thanks.

[Lavaere]

Here is a wild suggestion for the last game...
we don't go with preset but instead just place 18 starts. and have it random who gets what

[Hoplosternum]

My objectives for placement are btw:

1. Maximum distance between friend and foe.
2. Equi-distant placement of starting locations.
3. Noob team can bring all 12 nation's land forces to bear on the vets.



Well if those are the objectives then we would be better off with a random map and three parallel lines of Noobs / Vets / Noobs. Like I suggested earlier :p

I don't really see what the wrap around or the large amount of sea in Cleveland's (otherwise excellent) map adds to this game. As long as you don't give the edge powers large safe hinterlands behind I don't think the wrap around will be an issue here as in a normal mp game where it favours those powers at the edge.

If the worry is my square map suggestion has ally dom kill issues then just make the map not square. A roughly 15*24 (= 360 provs) would give more space between the Capitals in each row. And you could zig zag the rows of Capitals slightly if you are really concerned.

If you look at Demon's central version it is similar to what I propose but by using Cleveland's map some of the Noobs are very close to the Vets at the start and there is very little that can be done to prevent this if you want all enemies to have easy direct access to each other (if you didn't you just have Noobs hidden behind other Noobs - but I don't think this is very desireable.

We are already going to have to get someone to manually place the starting position (unless we adopt Lavaere's proposal). So why not just use a random map? It really is very simple to do :angel

I would post some examples but don't know how to get a decent screenshot of the map. How are people doing that :confused:

[TwoBits]

Hm, TheDemon's first 'revised' map seems possible, but as Hoplosternum mentions, the Noobs at the 'corners' of the crescents are much closer to vets than others.

Was there a problem with having the 4 center vets in a diamond formation like this?:

-----v
-----v
---v---v
-----v
-----v

Is there a dominion-fratricide issue with that set-up? Matched with that, the noob-crescent could be modified, with the 2nd and 5th noobs inset a little from the coast, sort of fitting slightly into the 'pockets' of the vet's diamond. Crap, did that make any sense?

----n---v---n----
-----------------
--------v--------
----n-------n----
-----------------
n---------------n
-----v-----v-----
n---------------n
-----------------
---n---------n---
--------v--------
-----------------
---n----v----n---

Well, that's a very, very rough and ugly approximation of what I'm talking about. I wish I was better and things graphical and computery, but I'm pretty much no better than a trained monkey at these things :D


Um, so why not a random rectangular map, as per Hoplo's suggestion?

[Ironhawk]

Out of curiousity: why are the noobs so against having a backfield player? Is it that the boredom of that position outweighs its value, for you?

[TwoBits]

Out of curiousity: why are the noobs so against having a backfield player? Is it that the boredom of that position outweighs its value, for you?

Well, I think that's part of it, but only a small part. To have a certain amount of players to accept a 'support' role would always be difficult, but I think it would be especially so in a team of "Noobs", who, for the most part, have never played together, and, by definition, lack experience.

I mean, that kind of willing team sacrifice would be the mark of, well, a veteran player, folks who have played a lot, interacted a lot, and know each other reasonably well.

That's quite hard for us Noobs to coordinate. Plus, there are some valid strategic concerns, like if you have 4 Noobs in the "backfield", the odds at the point of conflict (the "front" as it were) are much reduced, from 2-1 to 3-2.

Yeah, theoretically the Noobs could make that up, and then some, with whatever the "backfield" nations were producing, but that's kind of hard to coordinate. I suppose if you gave us noobs a couple of months or so(!!!), after the map and all the races have been chosen, to get to know each other, maybe game out a bunch of scenarios, we might be OK with such a set-up ;)

In the absence of that, I think we need to go with our strength - 2-1 odds, and press that advantage from the get-go.

That's how it seems to look to me (and I did volunteer for a support role when I joined this game).

[Septimius Severus]

Here is a wild suggestion for the last game...
we don't go with preset but instead just place 18 starts. and have it random who gets what
Just to clarify, I was planning on placing 18 starts anyway so it is just a matter of where. I'll have to check the map/mod manual but I believe specstart will overide the no-start terrain masks that Cleveland has set up for most of the provinces, or I can just uncheck em in the editor. If TheDemon's turn out to be the ones already pre-set, hey that is fine too and makes it even more unbiased and less likely that an error in judgement will be made.

As in TheDemon's screenshots, both teams will know all the start locations (something which is easy enough to guess or locate via scouting). But, and here is the beauty, each team will have discretion as to which of their nations goes where. The start locations being public knowledge, removes any possiblity of partiality and thus the need for a third pary. And with the ability to decide which of the alloted starting locations your team's nations will reside in each team will have a measure of control. Everyone is happy!

True, following Hoplo's idea (see thumbnail below) we could eliminate water provinces entirely and create a random rectangular map, and place noobs in parallel lines opposing a center line of vets. This would give us more space between the opposing lines and thus much more time before hostilities break out. However, the distribution of provinces just looks uneven and unqual to me. Can starts be placed evenly and equally distant throughout such a map as easily as with Cleveland's? Could we then get a third party to place starts that would satify both teams? How much time do you guys want to spend with this? Don't we want some water for strategic options, certain nations? And it just looks terrible. I suppose a perfect grid if possible would be what I'd want, but that would look even worse. :)

I think we should stick with Planet Rorschach, check TheDemon's placement bias (there won't be any except Cleveland's if some or all of them are the preset ones), and if desired enact an NAP. But I will go the way of the majority if I deem it will move us along faster and solve most of the problems.

[Septimius Severus]

Looking at Thedemon's placement suggestions in version 1. I see only one or two things that I have questions about.

1. Noob starting locations 232,233 have 3 land neigbors and 1 water neighbors. The vet's centermost two positions have 4 land neighbors. Will having that 4th province a water neighbor result in any economic disparity between the two pairs of starts?

2. The vets starter at 25 would be right next to polar province 11, which has like 15 neigbors (many of them water provinces). Would a fort here owned by the vets result in an economic or naval powerhouse?

Perhaps moving the two nearby polar vets toward the center, to say like 229 and 158, as twobits suggested, would resolve the second issue and also lessen the pressure on the crescent tips.

[Hoplosternum]

I will try and attach a couple of JPEGs that I have made from quick random maps I've just made.

360 Provinces - 2400 * 1500 pixels and between 2-4% sea

Yellow dots = Vets
Red Dots = Noobs

All starts have at least 4 and usually 5 neighbours. And are usually 3+ provinces between team mates. Some only have 2 but with a bit of zig zagging / more careful placement this could be increased.

At least 4 and usually 5 provinces seperate all Noob & Vet capitals. You could guarantee at least 5 with more careful placement.

[namad]

If the vets are along a central line then the vets have to be near the polar caps this is just a fact. One extra mapmove away makes little to no difference. If this is an issue one can simply remove some of those neighbor connections? Or maybe flip things so the southern polar cap is water as well as the northern? Theres nothing in this era to recruit underwater anyways. Also if a start location only has 3neighbors it should probably be moved one square in a direction giving it 4neighbors.

The random map would probably be fine... It feels like we're putting too much effort into arguing this and it's been way too many days of deliberation to me.

[Lingchih]

I'm still here, and still reading the posts. Just not posting anything. Just waiting for someone to tell me which nation I am to play.

[atul]

So, has team noob compiled their nation list? I think we're waiting for them to say so so we can get the nation selection done.

And as to the map, I hate anything that puts teams in a line, as there's little support ability from other teams to the point guys. But can and will play, lets just get it over with.

[atul]

1. Noob starting locations 232,233 have 3 land neigbors and 1 water neighbors. The vet's centermost two positions have 4 land neighbors. Will having that 4th province a water neighbor result in any economic disparity between the two pairs of starts?

2. The vets starter at 25 would be right next to polar province 11, which has like 15 neigbors (many of them water provinces). Would a fort here owned by the vets result in an economic or naval powerhouse?

1. I don't see a great effect as the quality of neighbouring provinces has an effect too.

2. Water province resources won't transfer to land forts and vice versa.

But, fiddle around, and lets get this started.

[Septimius Severus]

The noob team nation list is ready to go.
Vet team, I am waiting for you to PM me your nation list.

[rdonj]

So, has team noob compiled their nation list? I think we're waiting for them to say so so we can get the nation selection done.

I was just about to prod you guys about this, but I see I don't have to. The faster this gets done the better, because the noobs seem to be having some second thoughts about the nation lineup, and are planning to go through the selection process again once they know what all nations they're getting. So that might take a few more days.

Seems it's been about a month since this thread was created. This game seems to be going for the record on longest amount of time spent organizing a game.

[Septimius Severus]

That is correct rdonj. I applaud everyone though for the time and effort. I've just been reviewing all proposals.

Hoplo, your idea will work, but I don't see much difference in the front line spacing and if there is water on a random map, it is really not possible to control where it will appear.

I've thus made a decision to use Demon's version 1 and we will move the noob provinces at 232 and 233 inward by 1 prov. We must get going.

[Septimius Severus]

Wow, almost 300 messages and over 6,000 views, and we haven't even started yet. This thread may surpase artifacts in visits and posts.:D

What is the verdict on an NAP? The noobs so far seem to think we would be best served without it. I know my settings tend toward quicker hostilities, but I've my heart set on em.

Hmm, the only other way to delay hostilities would be to use an even wider version of Hoplo's map, with starts very, very, very, far apart. But the having the water does provide an interesting strategic element for capable nations such as Ermor, Agartha, or Shin. So onward!! We've done the best with the map we can, onward towards a very action packed game!

[Lingchih]

Yeah, I think dispense with the NAP.

[TheDemon]

Yeah, sorry about those starts I didn't check them for prov connections. 4 land neighbors is enough, 3 is too few, land<->water connections don't generate resources.

Let me check our forums and I think we have a list ready to go.

[DrPraetorious]

I'd very much like to have our exact capitals secret? Would it be possible for us to just pick our capitals wherever we want in that center band of 3 provinces? I realize this will take an extra day-at-least, but it prevents some early nastiness that can be done if you know someone's capital.

[Hoplosternum]

I have no problem with Dr Praetorious's suggestion. But can't we just get a neutral to set the capitals? And therefore move them a little if this is important?

There were plenty of people who were interested in the game but for whatever reason did not decide to play. Maybe someone who played in a previous game could be asked to do this?

Or, while agreeing to have no actual NAP, perhaps we could have a prohibition on anyone moving forces (Pretenders, armies etc.) or casting spells on to the capital of an enemy nation for say the first 5 turns? Or would this crap the Vets style too much :p

[Septimius Severus]

While I respect Dr. Praetorious suggestions, I'm inclined toward some sort of NAP as Hoplo mentioned to prevent any sort of early nastiness. We've slaved over setting up these start locations for fairness and directness, I frankly don't want anyone tampering with em, moving anything around, or any such thing.

Ideally we noobs would like a no vet first attack NAP, prohibiting them from any sort of first attack. That would calm jittery noob nerves. Let us expand with molestation, and when we are ready strike the first blow. But Somehow I don't think the Vets would care for this. :)

Failing that, Hoplo's idea of a hand's off capitals for x number of turns is fine with me. Frankly, though I don't think we noobs will be risking too much. But a hand's off captitals should sooth any anxious nerves!

[Raiel]

I think we need to address this issue... to be honest, when I saw Cleveland's initial starting suggestion with several opposing capitals I immediatly began testing first/second turn SC flying pretenders against capitols of nations the vets would most likely choose. Vicious, yes... but I assumed the vets would use the same strategy.

[rdonj]

I'm going to go on record as stating I think the rest of the settings should be kept as normal as possible to keep this like a regular mp game. It is better to have learned and lost than never to have learned at all. Or something like that.

[Septimius Severus]

Intelligent debate, I thank everyone for it.

Now my friends it is time for nation assignment, the moment has come.

Here are the ranked team lists in the interests of full disclosure (minus Ashdod and Shinuyama):

Noobs
1) Pythium
2) Abyssia
3) Vanheim
4) Jotunheim
5) Bandar Log
6) Pangaea
7) Ermor
8) Ulm
9) Arcoscephale
10) Marignon
11) Mictlan
12) Eriu
13) Agartha
14) C'tis
15) Caelum
16) Machaka
17) Man

Vets
1. Vanheim
2. Ermor
3. Pythium
4. Eriu
5. Mictlan
6. Jotunheim
7. Marignon
8. Pan
9. Abysia
10. Caelum

Here are the results:

Noobs: Pythium, Abyssia, Jottunheim, Bandar Log, Pangaea, Ulm, Arcoscephale, Agartha, C'tis, Caelum, Machaka, (+ Shinuyama)

Vets: Vanheim, Ermor, Eriu, Mictlan, Marignon, (+ Ashod)

Either team may swap nations with the opposing team or request one of the unused nations (Tien'Chi or Man). First come first serve on those two. But lets keep the squabbling if any down to a minimum.

Next two things I need done.

1. I need each team to decide which player is playing which nation (I need this info to update the opening post).

2. Next I need each team to decide which of their nations goes in their alloted starting positions (I'll post the starts, if demon doesnt, tonight).

We are then ready to begin pretender uploads. I will create the game on Llama very soon.

Thanks.

[rdonj]

What? Baalz didn't take T'ien Ch'i? I thought that was a shoo in after he wrote the guide. The other vets vote him down?

I have to say I'm surprised the vets took both van and eriu. I knew one was coming, but both? Slight redundancy there. But great for raiding I admit.

My picks for what you guys would want to pick for this game: pythium, either one of caelum/van/eriu, abysia, tien chi (baalz), pangaea (figured lingchih would want to return to them for the last game), and ermor or jotunheim.

[namad]

given the way the list system works if you want to get one and only one nation out of a sublist of two nations well.... you are **** out of luck...

we were 80% sure you would pick vanheim #1 and were treating that pick as almost a dead pick we had no chance at

[atul]

Yeah guess the nation selection was all about the Department of Redundancy Department striking again.

Good guesses Rdonj, but your list is quite low on astral for the off-chance that noobs put Pyth first. And I'd be so bold as to assume denying us them was major reason for them being highest?

And absolute NO for any kind of antisymmetric NAP. And would rather not have any artificial restrictions either. But if you're so scared about 3rd turn capital sieges, the I'd guess NAP for first 5 turns would enable people to expand enough it wouldn't be that big a thing. Last game showed how bad it was with a longer sleeping period.

[rdonj]

Yeah, that was one of the biggest reasons for having pythium so high.

With ashdod you do at least have one nation with high astral. But I had this feeling that you should really have bandar log, for the high astral, ease of clamming and powerful astral summons. But again, with ashdod on the team, how many astral summon nations do you need. I guess that goes double with marignon on the vet team.

[Hoplosternum]

Well what about no NAP but no attacks on Capitals for the first 5 or 6 turns (or however long you think is necessary). That stops any early capital raid as we all know where they are, but allows fighting to start as soon as we find each other?

[atul]

Yeah well, BL was mentioned once or twice, but at least I didn't stress that nation. Guess noobs have got the real astral heavy-hitters then, we'll see how painful it gets. But, with Ashdod, Ermor and Marignon on the vet team, I'd say astral is well taken care of.

And I really hope this game won't last long enough for clams to pay off. :p

Edit: no attack on caps for 5 turns is fine by me, dunno about others in my team. Not talking for everyone.

[TheDemon]

I think no attacks on caps for X turns is fine. I'm against asymetrical NAPs, they're kind of silly.

[Lavaere]

I think no capture of Capital castle all game sounds good, or atleast against my capital.

[Lavaere]

Also I was kinda hoping that the vets had Caelum, that way I would of pestered the noob team to give me Bandar Log so I could have a rematch of last game.

[Septimius Severus]

I am sure everyone will be ok with a 5 turn, no hostile actions against capitols NAP, if that will soothe the fears of any who are worried about that sort of thing. Caps can be pretty easily located/guessed at anyway, as long as you know the general area of the enemy. It won't necessarily nix the need for scouts early on either, as they will still be needed to monitor territory, discover new forts, armies, etc.

[Septimius Severus]

Here are the start locations corresponding to those shown in the map image.

From top to bottom and left to right:

Nob-Vet
336-361
337-304
296-230
299-157
225-82
226-25
153
153
84
85
36
37

This post will be available via link from the opening post.

[Septimius Severus]

Looking at the terrain modifiers in more detail in the chosen map, I don't really have any issues with the choices made, aside from possibly 296 and 299 being swamp, which can easily be fixed if it turns out to be a detriment to any of the noob nations. Other than that, I'm not going to fool with connections or any other terrain masks, as I want to retain the look and feel of Cleveland's excellent map as much as possible.

When the players/nations have been assigned, team captains please post them. Thanks.

[Septimius Severus]

Also, when the nations have been placed in starting locations, team Captains (or at least the vet team Captain), please PM them to the admin(s).

[atul]

Province type of the capital doesn't matter, other than being the backdrop of battles fought there.

I think we're just waiting to hear from Baalz, whether he's okay with stuff...

[DrPraetorious]

It also matters for summon animals!!!! There are a couple of other effects (send wolves) that notice forests, etc.

[Septimius Severus]

Province type of the capital doesn't matter, other than being the backdrop of battles fought there.

I think we're just waiting to hear from Baalz, whether he's okay with stuff...

Well then I probably won't need to make any adjustments on those two.

Ling, tell us, with Mysterio having been assasinated, will there be a son of Mysterio or something else in this game? Or is the line ended for good?:p

[Hoplosternum]

It also matters for summon animals!!!! There are a couple of other effects (send wolves) that notice forests, etc.

And as summon animals is going to be the cornerstone of my strategy what am I likely to get in Swamps? :p

[namad]

if you are truly serious you can always trade start locations with a fellow noob player can't you?


also... how does one edit a map to give their nation a specific start location? i want to do some testing with proper locations...

[atul]

Either team may swap nations with the opposing team or request one of the unused nations (Tien'Chi or Man). First come first serve on those two. But lets keep the squabbling if any down to a minimum.

Team vet switches Mictlan with T'ien Ch'i.

Lineup coming up momentarily.

[atul]

1. I need each team to decide which player is playing which nation (I need this info to update the opening post).


Here are the heroes or the villains, depending on the team you root for:

Ashdod - namad
Eriu - Baalz
Ermor - Lingchih
Marignon - TheDemon
T'ien Ch'i - DrP
Vanheim - atul

[Septimius Severus]

also... how does one edit a map to give their nation a specific start location? i want to do some testing with proper locations...

Open the .map file with wordpad or similar program and at the bottom of the text file add the text below for each nation you want to specify starting locations for:

#specstart [nationnmber] [provnumber]

Example:

#specstart 1 241
(specifies that EA Ermor is to start in province number 241)

Note: nation numbers for each era can be found in the mapedit.pdf in the doc directory.

I believe #specstart will overide any terrain masks such as no-start that some maps use to indicate starting/no starting provinces, but if so you can either go in the editor and uncheck no-start or find the province in the terrain list and remove the "512" terrain mask. Be aware the map editor will erase any specstarts you add to a file, so if you make any changes via the editor, be sure to go back and add them.

[Septimius Severus]

Either team may swap nations with the opposing team or request one of the unused nations (Tien'Chi or Man). First come first serve on those two. But lets keep the squabbling if any down to a minimum.

Team vet switches Mictlan with T'ien Ch'i.

Lineup coming up momentarily.

Got it. Available unused nations are now Mictlan and Man.

Vets only need now to PM which of their nations they wish to start in the pre-assigned vet locations.

I expect the noob nation assignment and placement will take a bit longer due to the number of team members but it should be coming soon.

[DrPraetorious]

Wait, the noobs can have Mictlan now b/c I took T'ien Ch'i? Mictlan is not such a valuable nation for us (we have plenty of people to whom we can funnel money) but will be quite useful and easy to play for noobs.

/me writhes.

Er... I guess I still want T'ien Ch'i.

[melnorjr]

The noob list of nation assignments is as follows.


Shinuyama - Unoptimized
Abysia - Viccio
Bandar Log - Lavaere
Pangaea - Septimius
Ulm - Joelz
Pythium - Twobits
C'tis - Raiel
Agartha - Pelthin
Caelum - Skinu
Machaka - Lumen
Arcoscephale - Melnorjr
Jotunheim - Hoplosternum

[rdonj]

Well, looks like it's about time to create the game. Finally. Good luck to all, ye vets and noobs.

[Septimius Severus]

Yep, once the vet placements are in, I can upload a working map. I'll create the game tonight and pretender uploads can be started at that time as well.

[Lingchih]

Ling, tell us, with Mysterio having been assasinated, will there be a son of Mysterio or something else in this game? Or is the line ended for good?:p

Mysterioso, the bastard son of Mysterio, decided to forget about the family vendetta, and left the land of the giants. He came to Ermor, where the people saw his greatness and proclaimed him to be their God.

[Lavaere]

Would this Mysterioso be five foot nothing, and wear a mask?

But more importantly. I've been told I can't go feeding my monkeys, Kentucky Fried Caelum. Would someone on the vet offer ideas for a new balance diet. Perhaps something not as tough and stringy this time.

[namad]

uhm no way man! an ancient tomb contained mysterio's remains and through a ritual conducted in the nation of ermor he has risen once again! to wreck havoc and do all the stuff he would feel like doing!

[Lingchih]

uhm no way man! an ancient tomb contained mysterio's remains and through a ritual conducted in the nation of ermor he has risen once again! to wreck havoc and do all the stuff he would feel like doing!

Yeah, actually that sounds better, Namad. We'll go with that.

[chrispedersen]

Would this Mysterioso be five foot nothing, and wear a mask?

But more importantly. I've been told I can't go feeding my monkeys, Kentucky Fried Caelum. Would someone on the vet offer ideas for a new balance diet. Perhaps something not as tough and stringy this time.

Darling,

Don't you know everything tastes like chicken? With the possible exception of Ermor, later.

[atul]

Orcs taste like chicken.

[Lingchih]

I need a map with fixed positions, so I can test it. Not sure why theDemon has not submitted the nation choices. We finalized them today.

[Septimius Severus]

I have nation assignments and placements for both teams.

Thank the gods, we now enter the final phase of organization:

Pretender design/upload.

Ling, I believe one of your cohorts was working on a test map for you guys.

Some of you have been extremely quiet, where's the trash talking and all that good stuff?

Can I assume everyone is OK with/wants a hands off capitols for 5 turns NAP? Dr. P?

[DrPraetorious]

NAPs are for sissies, but if that's what everyone wants I won't object except to point out how weak and stupid our opponents are.

If they wish to prolong their agony for five months with some mewling NAP, that's fine by me.

[Hoplosternum]

It's not a NAP :) It's just a no attacks on capitals before Turn 6 rule. If you Vets agree. You can fight anywhere else before then....

[TwoBits]

Some of you have been extremely quiet, where's the trash talking and all that good stuff?

NAPs are for sissies, but if that's what everyone wants I won't object except to point out how weak and stupid our opponents are.

If they wish to prolong their agony for five months with some mewling NAP, that's fine by me.

Now that's the spirit! :D I can't think of any good riposte right now though - any good comebacks, fellow Noobs?

[atul]

There's a game at llamaserver.

Does that mean we can start uploading pretenders there?

[Baalz]

NAPs are for sissies, but if that's what everyone wants I won't object except to point out how weak and stupid our opponents are.

If they wish to prolong their agony for five months with some mewling NAP, that's fine by me.

Maybe we can fight amongst ourselves for awhile Dr P, just to pass the time until our opponents can field an army.

[Squirrelloid]

Not really interested in playing a huge MP game yet, but I did want to comment on how you assign nations.

The most fair way to do it would be to have each player submit a ranked list from 1:n where n is the number of nations available. You then minimize the sum of squared rankings for nations awarded across all players. This is actually a remarkably simple thing to do - one way to accomplish this is if you think of it as a player : nation matrix where the elements are the jth players rank of nation k, you're looking for an ordering of the columns (nations) to minimize the sum of the diagonal (row k gets assigned column k). There are n! possible orderings, so you don't want to actually brute force it for 24 players, but there are clever things you can do. (For example, an heuristic search would get you an approximate best answer, a principle coordinate analysis would tell you who's rankings are similar to each other and let you break the problem into sub-problems in most cases, and I'm sure someone better at math than I am can figure out something truly clever to do to arrive at the actual solution).

[atul]

...

As my professor in System Analysis and Operations Research used to say: "Usually the best solution to a problem is the one that gets done in time."

Interesting concept, but I feel we spent enough time with this as it is already. :)

[namad]

the flaw in a solved system is that players can change their lists in order to exploit the formula and increase their chances of getting that one nation they really really want... if you were to use a solved system the lists would have to be kept totally confidential... additionally with only two players (two teams) in the game there is no reason at all for something like this... the forming of the list itself became a game in which players attempted to take into account what they thought the other player's list would be....

the system we used ended up being almost entirely optimal we left the team that picked first the vets get pick1 and4 but gave the other team pick2and3 and then alternated throughout

[Septimius Severus]

Some of you have been extremely quiet, where's the trash talking and all that good stuff?

NAPs are for sissies, but if that's what everyone wants I won't object except to point out how weak and stupid our opponents are.

If they wish to prolong their agony for five months with some mewling NAP, that's fine by me.

Now that's the spirit! :D I can't think of any good riposte right now though - any good comebacks, fellow Noobs?

The hands off capitals for 5 turns was only suggested by Hoplo because Dr. P seemed to have an issue regarding the capitals being known beforehand. And since, I didn't want to change this, I also proposed it as measure to reassure the vets and calm their fears. I also reminded everyone that actual nation locations would not be known by either side until contact is made.

We noobs are certainly no sissies and I'm sure we can do without it just as much as the vets. Generally I would encourage everyone though to make smart decisions early on and refrain from taking risks that might backfire. With the capitals being known, it only makes sense that people would take precautions to protect it. That being said, I am sure our noobs are eager to give the vets what is coming to them, therefore the vets should not expect any mercy!

[Septimius Severus]

There's a game at llamaserver.

Does that mean we can start uploading pretenders there?

Yes. You can upload whenever you are ready. I'll be uploading the map with the modified starts very soon.

[Septimius Severus]

Maybe we can fight amongst ourselves for awhile Dr P, just to pass the time until our opponents can field an army.

Yes, Baalz. The vets may attack each other at will. We noobs shall not interfere.

[DrPraetorious]

So to be clear - is it hands-off capitals for the first five turns or no?

[Septimius Severus]

Not really interested in playing a huge MP game yet, but I did want to comment on how you assign nations...
Thanks for the input. Ahh, I always get excited when I see a potential fresh green noob for our game. Have no fear though,I'd like to have you as a noob alternate, this may give you a chance to sample a team game, without commiting yourself the whole game.

[Septimius Severus]

So to be clear - is it hands-off capitals for the first five turns or no? If you can speak for all your teamates and say that you do not want it, then I will see what our team thinks. Probably the best way is to have the noob captains speak for their team. If either team's captain says yes, then we will do it, otherwise we shall not. Fair enough? I'm sending out a PM to them now.

[atul]

What the... noob team captains? As in plural? Singular team and plural captain, or plural team and singular captain per team? Or plural team and plural captain for No Noob Left Behind?

Out with their identities, so we know who to slay first for maximum morale effect!

[atul]

Yes. You can upload whenever you are ready. I'll be uploading the map with the modified starts very soon.
To go where no pretender has gone before. Father of Gods has been submitted.

[DrPraetorious]

Personally, I would've prefered to have the actual capital locations hidden from the other team - and let use choose whatever province #s we wanted in a certain band.

As is, it'll take more than 5 turns to get to a capital anyway, even with a flyer - so the rule strikes me as pointless but harmless.

[TwoBits]

Ah, I smell a Greek tragedy in the making. Something about hubris...

[atul]

Greek tragedies, like Shakespearean, usually ended just by everyone who mattered dying.

Pride cometh before the fall is a bit more christian thing, at least that's my impression.

[Septimius Severus]

As is, it'll take more than 5 turns to get to a capital anyway, even with a flyer - so the rule strikes me as pointless but harmless.

Right, pointless but harmless, so lets let the two team captains decide and post. If they want it longer, well then so be it. You, me, and everyone else, can concentrate on other things in the meantime.

[Septimius Severus]

Ooops, seems I duplicated a start for the noob team, after 153 should be 154, not 153. The following post replaces the current start location post.

[Septimius Severus]

Here are the start locations corresponding to those shown in the map image.

From top to bottom and left to right:

Nob-Vet
336-361
337-304
296-230
299-157
225-82
226-25
153
154
84
85
36
37

This post will be available via link from the opening post.

[rdonj]

As to team captains, there is only one noob team captain. And that is [censored]. :p

By captains he was referring to the noob team captain and the vet team captain, which septimius has been assuming is TheDemon.

[TheDemon]

We run things by committee, but I don't think anyone objects to a 5-turn no cap attacks NAP. Let's institute it.

[Lavaere]

We run things by committee, but I don't think anyone objects to a 5-turn no cap attacks NAP. Let's institute it.
Bandar Log objects, vehemently. We propose that none be allowed to attack there capital ever. And that all should offer some food as sacrifice.

[Septimius Severus]

Very well. Once the game begins, both teams will refrain from any hostile actions upon the other team's capital for a period of 5 turns.

Rdonj, some have asked whether you'll be hosting/admining a Noobs vs. Vets: Graduates game(s) in the future, featuring small teams of noob alumni matched up with equal numbers of vets. 4vs4, or 5vs5, etc. If such a game happens, I'd recommend a map with the opposing capitals spread very far apart to enable proper development and buildup prior to the epic clash. All other setting though, I'd assume would be normal of course.

[rdonj]

Hmm, I don't know. I could do that, but I think it would be best to wait on such a thing for a couple months at least. Most of the vets from this series of games are a bit burnt out on them it seems, so I think such games would get a better response if there was a bit of a cooldown period.

I'm also thinking it might be better to go with the suggestion stretch had of a game with vet team captains and one or two noob allies, they would make for great learning games for noobs vs vets alumni, and probably be quite fun to play.

If someone else wanted to create another noobs vs vets game though I would be happy to admin it for them.

[atul]

So...

When are we starting? I see 4/6 of vets have uploaded pretenders and none of the team noob. Sept, maybe some deadline for pretender uploading would be a good thing to get this thing going? After all, the game settings have been set and people have known their nations for sure for days now.

[Pelthin]

I think I have mine, but need to make sure it is okay with TEAM NOOB. :)

[Septimius Severus]

So...

When are we starting? I see 4/6 of vets have uploaded pretenders and none of the team noob. Sept, maybe some deadline for pretender uploading would be a good thing to get this thing going? After all, the game settings have been set and people have known their nations for sure for days now.

The noobs are taking their time, practicing, testing, and so forth. I'd like to begin by Saturday though. I myself have some tests I need to run, having spent most of my time in simply organizing everything.

If you vets would like something to do in the meantime, you may post your planned strategies here, tell us what your pretender builds will be, and issue us guest passes to the vet forum.:D

[Septimius Severus]

Hmm, I don't know. I could do that, but I think it would be best to wait on such a thing for a couple months at least. Most of the vets from this series of games are a bit burnt out on them it seems, so I think such games would get a better response if there was a bit of a cooldown period.

I'm also thinking it might be better to go with the suggestion stretch had of a game with vet team captains and one or two noob allies, they would make for great learning games for noobs vs vets alumni, and probably be quite fun to play.

If someone else wanted to create another noobs vs vets game though I would be happy to admin it for them.

Yes, I'm burned out myself, hence my planned retirement from hosting. Though, the vets who might participate would not necesarilly have to have played in the other games. It is to see how much noob alumni have learned and how well they could stand in a 1 on 1 competition.

The second idea works of course, and would certainly be very enriching, though I'd think it might be more aptly named "Noobs and Vets".:eek:

[atul]

If you vets would like something to do in the meantime, you may post your planned strategies here, tell us what your pretender builds will be, and issue us guest passes to the vet forum.:D

Oh, sure.

My pretender will be imprisoned Great Enchantress with domstr 10 and A10E1S1D9. The plan is to rely on 80% airshield bless on my Vans so that they can close in and kill stuff with DEATH WEAPONS! Cool, isn't it? The Vans will just flip and kill EVERYONE with DEATH WEAPONS!

Unfortunately this takes a lot of points, but no worry. My modest scales, turmoil 3 productivity 0 heat 0 death 3 misfortune 3 drain 3, will ensure that no attacking noob army will be unharmed by raiding barbarian forces. Even the lands I own will soon lose all value thanks to the constant plaque events, so there will be no reason for noobs to attack me. That enables me to aim for research victory and be a excellent support for my teammates.

[Ironhawk]

I just found the Ultimate Gateway in my capital!!

[TheDemon]

That Marignon pretender that's currently uploaded isn't mine. Could you delete it?

[atul]

Just send in your own, and it should get rewritten?

[TheDemon]

Doesn't it lock the pretender to the email address? I'll try anyway, but I think it'll just give me an "already taken" mail.


edit: yup

[Unoptimized]

I'm sorry guys, but from the looks of it, my laptop can't send or receive files from the internet. I'm trying to fix this problem, but I can't reliably send my god untill wend. If you guys want to wait, that would be excellent, but if not I will do my best to find a sub

[namad]

you can just tell someone what pretender you want to use and have them fashion it themselves and then have them email it in (explain this request on the private noob forum).... then you can have the admin change the email address to whatever email address you want... i do not think it would be reasonable to wait until july to submit pretenders

[Septimius Severus]

That Marignon pretender that's currently uploaded isn't mine. Could you delete it?

Deleted.

[Septimius Severus]

I'm sorry guys, but from the looks of it, my laptop can't send or receive files from the internet. I'm trying to fix this problem, but I can't reliably send my god untill wend. If you guys want to wait, that would be excellent, but if not I will do my best to find a sub

Unoptimized, we will move you to alternate for now, and bring in Kietsensei or Stretch to play Shinuyama in the meantime. If you can get back up, we can switch you back in.

[Hoplosternum]

So we are down to 3 Vets and 1 Noob with Pretenders in....

[atul]

Well it's still 3/6 to 1/12 in our favour in case you're keeping score. :p

[Joelz]

Could someone explain how to upload my pretender? Do I just send the pretender file to Septimius?

[atul]

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showpost.php?p=529316&postcount=2

More specifically:
" E-mail the file to: pretenders[ at ]llamaserver[ dot ]net
- Crucially, you must have the game name in the subject line of your e-mail"

So, email pretender file to that address with subject NoobsvsVetsIII_Revolution

[Septimius Severus]

Thanks Atul, I was going to repost that info again. Also important for the greener noobs amongst us (and sometimes for me :)) is the second post of the thread on playing your turns when the game starts:

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showpost.php?p=529317&postcount=3

Remember also, that everything you need to play is posted in the opening post of this thread including the CBM mod, the Planet Rorschach Map, and an image and list of the starting locations. You'll also find links to both team forums, information on game status, settings, current players, etc. It is a veritable supermarket of info! Maybe I'll add a link to the Llamaserver FAQ as well.

[Lingchih]

Umm, you want to get this thing on the ball Sept? Half your noobs are not in. I thought we wanted to start Saturday. If Namad can ever get his thumb out of his ***, the Vets will be ready to go.

[namad]

fine i submitted... i've been done with the concept for like 3or4days i just felt like stalling since no one else was sending them in... but i can always resubmit if i feel like....


i think we definitely need some form of deadline our team is 100% in and yours is 33% in and like ling says we've all known now what nation we'd have for a week? almost a week?

some form of deadline would be a decent goal... if people are MIA just have alternates take over?

[DrPraetorious]

Well, the game was supposed to start on Saturday, I recall...

[Septimius Severus]

Right Saturday is supposed to be the deadline. The noob team though is also currently trying to find a replacement for unoptimized and soon otherwise the start will be delayed.

[Squirrelloid]

Not really interested in playing a huge MP game yet, but I did want to comment on how you assign nations...
Thanks for the input. Ahh, I always get excited when I see a potential fresh green noob for our game. Have no fear though,I'd like to have you as a noob alternate, this may give you a chance to sample a team game, without commiting yourself the whole game.

Uh, sure, I suppose I could be an alternate (sorry, had jury duty yesterday so i was a little slow seeing this).

I'll have to go check out how fast you expect us to take turns, but I'll warn you that weekday evenings are actually better for me than weekends at the moment, so hopefully if/when i have to step in we're at 1 turn/day or something.

[Septimius Severus]

Not really interested in playing a huge MP game yet, but I did want to comment on how you assign nations...
Thanks for the input. Ahh, I always get excited when I see a potential fresh green noob for our game. Have no fear though,I'd like to have you as a noob alternate, this may give you a chance to sample a team game, without commiting yourself the whole game.

Uh, sure, I suppose I could be an alternate (sorry, had jury duty yesterday so i was a little slow seeing this).

I'll have to go check out how fast you expect us to take turns, but I'll warn you that weekday evenings are actually better for me than weekends at the moment, so hopefully if/when i have to step in we're at 1 turn/day or something.

Glad to have ya on board, I think you'll find our turn times quite leisurely. Though we may need ya sooner than I had anticipated as we need a starter for Shinuyama at present. If I don't hear back from our alternates soon, you might need to step in.

[Squirrelloid]

Thanks for the input. Ahh, I always get excited when I see a potential fresh green noob for our game. Have no fear though,I'd like to have you as a noob alternate, this may give you a chance to sample a team game, without commiting yourself the whole game.

Uh, sure, I suppose I could be an alternate (sorry, had jury duty yesterday so i was a little slow seeing this).

I'll have to go check out how fast you expect us to take turns, but I'll warn you that weekday evenings are actually better for me than weekends at the moment, so hopefully if/when i have to step in we're at 1 turn/day or something.

Glad to have ya on board, I think you'll find our turn times quite leisurely. Though we may need ya sooner than I had anticipated as we need a starter for Shinuyama at present. If I don't hear back from our alternates soon, you might need to step in.

Hmm.. i guess i should try a SP game as Shinuyama to see what that entails...

The time per turns - 32 hours / first 10 turns. That's 32 hours per turn? I think I can handle that.

[rdonj]

Uh, sure, I suppose I could be an alternate (sorry, had jury duty yesterday so i was a little slow seeing this).

I'll have to go check out how fast you expect us to take turns, but I'll warn you that weekday evenings are actually better for me than weekends at the moment, so hopefully if/when i have to step in we're at 1 turn/day or something.

Glad to have ya on board, I think you'll find our turn times quite leisurely. Though we may need ya sooner than I had anticipated as we need a starter for Shinuyama at present. If I don't hear back from our alternates soon, you might need to step in.

Hmm.. i guess i should try a SP game as Shinuyama to see what that entails...

The time per turns - 32 hours / first 10 turns. That's 32 hours per turn? I think I can handle that.

Hey, squirreloid, welcome to the game. Since it seems likely that you will be playing for unoptimized rather than subbing this game, you should probably head on over to the noob forum (http://teamnoob.forumotion.net/forum.htm) and sign up. You will initially not be able to see anything interesting. After I see that you have signed up I will enable you to see the planning forum for this game. There's quite a lot of discussion in there now, so if you want to read it all it may take a while. I don't think anyone expects you to read all of that, but you will need to post there at least when nations start filling out so there is no inter-team bumping. Of course, they would prefer more.

[rdonj]

You're in.

[Squirrelloid]

Ok, I'm sort of assuming I'm in for Unoptimized. Could you confirm Septimius?

Also, I've never played a MP game before - how do i get you my pretender file?

[atul]

Look into your dominions directory. There should be a directory named savedgames and in it, directory newlords. If you create a pretender in the game with Game Tools -> Create pretender, that file is saved into directory newlords as a .2h file with name of the nation you've created a pretender for.

If you've got only one pretender created for that nation, all is fine. If you have several pretenders, you need to remember pretenders are saved in chronological order (mid_shinyuama_0.2h, mid_shinyuama_1.2h, the last being the latest), UNLESS you've deleted old pretenders before.

[Septimius Severus]

Ok, I'm sort of assuming I'm in for Unoptimized. Could you confirm Septimius?

Also, I've never played a MP game before - how do i get you my pretender file?

Your in for Unoptimized. A link to the Llamaserver FAQ is now included on the opening post of this thread, though Atul has covered what you need to know in previous posts I believe as well.

[DrPraetorious]

We're still waiting for 3 people.

What do we do if there are other n00bs who signed up and have since simply vanished? Could everyone who has not sent in a God check into the thread to verify that you're still alive?

[Raiel]

Well... I have three legit copies of the game. I could sub for someone else! :mean:

[melnorjr]

Yes. You can upload whenever you are ready. I'll be uploading the map with the modified starts very soon.
To go where no pretender has gone before. Father of Gods has been submitted.

Fenriri, named after the wolf that will slay Odin(the all-father) During Rangarok, has been submitted.

[atul]

To go where no pretender has gone before. Father of Gods has been submitted.

Fenriri, named after the wolf that will slay Odin(the all-father) During Rangarok, has been submitted.
Ha.

That's a challenge, then.

[Septimius Severus]

Most noobs have been accounted for and I've taken pains to ensure no one on either team had died :rip: before the game started. That being said, it looks like this game is about ready to begin. We now are waiting only for Skinu (Caelum) and myself of course. I am now sending in my pretender.

[rdonj]

Skinu is most definitely alive and as of today was discussing pretender options on the noob forum. So you can be assured he is alive and will hopefully be submitting a pretender soon.

[DrPraetorious]

Since he's having trouble, we'll submit one for him:
Mr Pibb, the Sky Lord
Awake Wyrm, Domstr 10, 5E4D4N, Turmoil 3, Prod 3, Cold 3, Death 3, Misfortune 3, Magic 1.

The earth, death and nature boost his protection, fear and regeneration (respectively).

[Pelthin]

To go where no pretender has gone before. Father of Gods has been submitted.

Fenriri, named after the wolf that will slay Odin(the all-father) During Rangarok, has been submitted.
Ha.

That's a challenge, then.

Well my Pretender is: Dwyn

The Celtic god of love.

So does that mean that you are going to send me flowers?

[atul]

http://www.nuklearpower.com/2009/06/25/episode-1144-pyrrhic-for-some/

"Hate is a kind of love"

[Septimius Severus]

I've just recieved an e-mail from Lingchih who has asked me to pass it on to the vets:

"Vets, it's me Lingchih. I'm having some trouble with my computer and have lost most of my passwords, including my password for the Shrapnel Forum and the Noobs vs. Vets Team Vet Forum. Can you guys please give Septimius my Vet Forum password and login information so that he can send it to me. Thanks. Sorry for the inconvience. I hope to be back on soon. Go vet team, go!"

[atul]

Erm, no-one can see that information except him. Not even admins. You know, basic security stuff?

Just tell him to log in with different login.

Or come to "the usual place" to chat, he'll know.

Or contact me on messenger, he has my contact information.

Sept, seriously?

[Septimius Severus]

Erm, no-one can see that information except him. Not even admins. You know, basic security stuff?

Just tell him to log in with different login.

Or come to "the usual place" to chat, he'll know.

Or contact me on messenger, he has my contact information.

Sept, seriously?
Umm, err, umm, yeah, seriously. So, like PM me his info right away and/or tell me what "the usual place" is and where and I'll be sure to pass it on to him! Of this you can be sure. You have my assurance on this matter. I guarantee it. Realy and truly. Most assuredly. In all honesty. Yea and verilly, tis the truth.

[atul]

What's holding Caelum's pretender? Lets get rolling.

[LumenPlacidum]

Game started!

Good luck everyone!

[Lingchih]

Shameful attempt Sept. Really shameful.

[Septimius Severus]

Shameful attempt Sept. Really shameful.

Sometimes I wonder if I have any shame.:D

[atul]

Seriously. Jokes of that kind aren't funny nor kosher when you're wearing the game admin hat. Even if you use comic sans.

But, game is on, good luck to everyone!

[Septimius Severus]

Seriously. Jokes of that kind aren't funny nor kosher when you're wearing the game admin hat. Even if you use comic sans.

But, game is on, good luck to everyone!

I accept your admonishment. But even us admin's deserve a laugh from time to time. No harm done.

Yes, good luck and may the best team prevail. Don't forget the trash talkin', TwoBits was right, it is quite enjoyable!

[Morpf]

Hey, i'm new here.
I have registrated for the game this week (marignon) and i did not know that i have to report here.
Now i have read that there is still the possibility to join as a alternate player. what do i have to do?

[atul]

Only waiting for Shiny now...

[rdonj]

Wow, that's one heck of a research pretender on eriu. 42 research on the first turn? Your scales must be a shambles.

[melnorjr]

Wow, that's one heck of a research pretender on eriu. 42 research on the first turn? Your scales must be a shambles.

Well, yeah with an awake great sage rainbow pretender with moderate dominion and low income.

[Baalz]

Nothing to see here, move along.

[archaeolept]

that's a bit of a push, but eriu does well w/ a heavy mini-bless. 42 just seems a bit excessive :)

[Septimius Severus]

Hey, i'm new here.
I have registrated for the game this week (marignon) and i did not know that i have to report here.
Now i have read that there is still the possibility to join as a alternate player. what do i have to do?
We were wondering where that pretender came from. Yes, we've just begun, but you'll probably get a chance to play as an alternate. I'm putting you in as a noob alternate, welcome.

[Squirrelloid]

Nothing to see here, move along.

I see Baalz has mastered the art of being ominous.

Of course, even a stale turn from him would be ominous.

[Morpf]

Hey, i'm new here.
I have registrated for the game this week (marignon) and i did not know that i have to report here.
Now i have read that there is still the possibility to join as a alternate player. what do i have to do?
We were wondering where that pretender came from. Yes, we've just begun, but you'll probably get a chance to play as an alternate. I'm putting you in as a noob alternate, welcome.

Thank you, i would be glad if it worked.
Sorry for the question (i am really a noob^^), but what do i have to do next? do you want me to send my pretender again? and when may i expect to start playing ?:)

[namad]

An alternate is like the 6th man on a basketball team. You don't have a starting position of your own, but if someone who is playing has to sit on the bench you might be asked to play for them.

Already unoptimized went MIA and someone else had to begin playing shinuyama for him on turn1... of course this means you do not have to send in a pretender.

[DrPraetorious]

Phase 2 is complete.

Phase 3 Checklist:
* Moxibustion (CHECK)
* ??? (CHECK)
* Profit! (CHECK)
* Eradication, Humiliation of All Enemies (on Schedule)

[Septimius Severus]

What was phase 2?

Moxibustion? :confused:

[Squirrelloid]

So, for those of us living in the US, this coming weekend is a holiday weekend. In particular, I will be traveling late thursday night and not be back until sometime sunday - which takes me away from my computer. So, I'd like to request the possible delay of an appropriate turn until Monday. (If I get a turn file on thursday early enough to look at it, i'll try to get that turn submitted, so then it'd be the next one I'd want delayed). It may work out that no turns need to actually be delayed, but better safe than sorry.

I'll post again on thursday before i leave with more accurate information about which turn likely needs to be delayed.

[Raiel]

So, for those of us living in the US, this coming weekend is a holiday weekend. In particular, I will be traveling late thursday night and not be back until sometime sunday - which takes me away from my computer. So, I'd like to request the possible delay of an appropriate turn until Monday. (If I get a turn file on thursday early enough to look at it, i'll try to get that turn submitted, so then it'd be the next one I'd want delayed). It may work out that no turns need to actually be delayed, but better safe than sorry.

I'll post again on thursday before i leave with more accurate information about which turn likely needs to be delayed.

Sadly, I feel compelled to second this request. I will also be travelling the exact same days; I do expect connectivity, but I've learned the hard way that nothing is certain.

[Septimius Severus]

If no one else requires a delay, the noob alternates may be available to sub, if not, we will delay approriately.

[Squirrelloid]

If no one else requires a delay, the noob alternates may be available to sub, if not, we will delay approriately.

Well, I can certainly give detailed instructions on what to do. What I need is an automated script to hand out my orders. Heck, I could probably just send my turn file to another n00b player with instructions if you're unwilling to grant the delay. What I really don't want is someone else making decisions that mess up what I'm doing, and I think I'm a lot more comfortable with my units' capabilities than someone who didn't do a bunch of 1st year run throughs will be.

[DrPraetorious]

I think that I'll be able to do my turns over the break - as I expect uninterrupted access while traveling.

However, safest thing to do would be just to shut off the timer over the weekend, and let people QH if available. If the game lags, get alternates to do sub turns for those who haven't submitted turns.

[LumenPlacidum]

delaying over the weekend seems reasonable to me. I'll be out of town myself on the 4th. It's only what, an extra 24 hours?

[Unoptimized]

Hey guys, sorry for being out of contact. My computer has received a nasty virus (system security is the DEVIL), and I am reduced to posting in safe mode. I would offer to find a sub, but my internet access is sporatic at best. I'm really sorry about this, and incredibly frustrated at present. When this is all over, I'm excited to play in future games.

[Squirrelloid]

Hey guys, sorry for being out of contact. My computer has received a nasty virus (system security is the DEVIL), and I am reduced to posting in safe mode. I would offer to find a sub, but my internet access is sporatic at best. I'm really sorry about this, and incredibly frustrated at present. When this is all over, I'm excited to play in future games.

You have a sub (me). Don't worry about it - I get to find out just how awesome Shinuyama is.

[Septimius Severus]

If no one else requires a delay, the noob alternates may be available to sub, if not, we will delay approriately.

Well, I can certainly give detailed instructions on what to do. What I need is an automated script to hand out my orders. Heck, I could probably just send my turn file to another n00b player with instructions if you're unwilling to grant the delay. What I really don't want is someone else making decisions that mess up what I'm doing, and I think I'm a lot more comfortable with my units' capabilities than someone who didn't do a bunch of 1st year run throughs will be.

No problem. I can understand how you feel. We will delay appropriately over the weekend. If you, or anyone else who'll be absent most of the weekend feels comfortable with any of the alternates taking your position(s) temporarily, please contact them and arrange it, then let me know. I believe rdonj is also available to the noob team on a limited basis in emergency situations.

[rdonj]

I am available on a very limited basis, if the game will die without a sub.

[rdonj]

So I thought it might be interesting to keep a tally as the game goes on of how much of a gem/gold disparity is racked up. Unfortunately I did not think of this before now, so I don't have the data for turns 1-4.

This is the collective incomes for each team on turn 5:

Team Noob gold income: 12,400
Team Noob gem income: 72

Team Vet gold income: 5,278
Team vet gem income: 32

I'm going to try to keep my information up to date until the end of the game, but I would not be surprised if I miss a turn or two. Anyway, I don't think this information is really going to be all that useful for anything, I just thought it would be fun to know.

[namad]

rdonj has gotten me about ready to commit seppuku. Most of the noobs are playing better than me. Then again, some of them might be more experienced than me! I'm only a vet because I was veto'd from being a noob in noobsvvets2... OR maybe when we break into wars I'll be able to make a better showing than I have so far... .i hope... maybe...

[Septimius Severus]

rdonj has gotten me about ready to commit seppuku. Most of the noobs are playing better than me. Then again, some of them might be more experienced than me! I'm only a vet because I was veto'd from being a noob in noobsvvets2... OR maybe when we break into wars I'll be able to make a better showing than I have so far... .i hope... maybe...
I'm sure you'll do fine by your team, of course you can always call in a more experienced alternate.

[rdonj]

lol. I wouldn't go that far. You're really not lagging behind the rest of your team from what the graphs say, except on research which I think is really just an ashdod thing.

I'll tell you though, the noobs are really in top form this game :)

[Squirrelloid]

rdonj has gotten me about ready to commit seppuku. Most of the noobs are playing better than me. Then again, some of them might be more experienced than me! I'm only a vet because I was veto'd from being a noob in noobsvvets2... OR maybe when we break into wars I'll be able to make a better showing than I have so far... .i hope... maybe...

You seem to be doing fine from the graphs - 7 provinces is a respectable showing (at least I hope so, since that's how many I have ;) ). Its some of the other vets I'm wondering what they're doing.

(Well, I'm also wondering what Baalz is doing, but mostly because he seems to be doing something crazy that is *working*).

And this is my first MP and I've only been playing SP for ~3 wks. Just because we're new doesn't mean we (1) are incapable of reading the wonderful guides provided on this site or (2) incapable of running through the first year a few times to figure out how to expand. It'll be once real battle is joined I'll start to feel inadequate.

[atul]

Namad, no panicking in public.

Noobs start to think they have a shot at winning or something equivalently ludicrous.

[namad]

if I die I will become more powerful than you could ever imagine.










probably by having someone in the community be so sad about it that he was willing to play in my place despite being a great player who would unbalance the game like neos unbalance matrirces.

[Baalz]

Heh, I recall telling a friend how flattering it is to be considered one of the top Dominions players, because there are very few *bad* dominions players. Pretty much only hard core strategy nerds play this game, so you have to respect that a guy who's been playing this for only a couple weeks is probably at least a decent strategist, possibly better than decent.

As to the weirdness...nothing to see here, move along.

[atul]

That Baalz's comment brought back memories. I once played a Dom2 game with people new to Dominions but who had been playing VGA Planets (IIRC) for like a decade together. It was really silly, seeing people improve their game almost turn-by-turn basis.

But yeah, this game draws certain kind of people. But still as everywhere there are people who learn fast and those who don't.

[Septimius Severus]

That Baalz's comment brought back memories. I once played a Dom2 game with people new to Dominions but who had been playing VGA Planets (IIRC) for like a decade together. It was really silly, seeing people improve their game almost turn-by-turn basis.

But yeah, this game draws certain kind of people. But still as everywhere there are people who learn fast and those who don't.I agree, though the game has so many intricacies and strategic elements, even fast learners cannot master them all that quickly. The vets with massive SP and MP experience, generally do have an edge as a game progesses. Fast learners may quickly grasp somethings but miss others that more careful/more plodding/more methodical/detail oriented learners wouldn't.

I do hope the vets will give us noobs a good show this time around, even though I know the main purpose is education. Adding more experienced players to the vets side would actually bring the game closer to the ideal rather than unbalance things, and both teams still have alternate slots available.

[namad]

i think the vet team needs a game admin... so we can appoint our own emergency alternates or some such? thoughts?

[Septimius Severus]

i think the vet team needs a game admin... so we can appoint our own emergency alternates or some such? thoughts?The vet team has full control of their own alternates. They also have veto power over noob alternates. Though the veto power does need to be exercised promptly in the case of the noob team.

[rdonj]

I think he means someone who has admin powers so if you're not around and they need someone to fill in they can have this person assign a temporary player.

However this is really not necessary, between me and septimius we usually are around for 90% of a given day. I am very easy to reach with pms and can deal with most admin issues if needed.

[namad]

thedemon completed his turn and filed a complete report about what he was planning to do on his turn 24hours ago... as of yet he has not submitted the file to llamaserver. Additionally time is running out and he may very well be unaware the file was never submitted and stale despite having done the turn extremely early.

if we had an admin we could just edit the email recipients get the .trn file and submit his .2h for him or something...


of course if I had to nominate someone for the position... I'd probably have nominated thedemon... which wouldn't've been useful in this case...

of course maybe he's not going to stale no one on my team seems to be concerned about this whatsoever.. anyways I'm going to bed shortly .. this isn't really a big issue I'm just hyper about stuff.

[rdonj]

A stale this early would be somewhat bad. If someone needs to temporarily assume control of caelum to prevent a stale that can be arranged.

[Lingchih]

24 hour delay please. TheDemon seems to be out of contact.

[Squirrelloid]

24 hour delay please. TheDemon seems to be out of contact.

If he's already given a detailed description of what he was going to do, can someone else on your team arrange to take the turn via administrator intervention? I'd sort of like to submit one more turn before the holiday weekend to reduce the need for delaying again.

[Septimius Severus]

There's really no need for a seperate admin for a given team. You guys may grant your team captain or anyone else you like on your team the authority to play someone's else's turn. Me or rdonj will be glad to temporarily/permanently switch e-mails for any player. Though, be aware that if you are currently already in the game you may run into issues regarding key violations. But you may also use your regular alternates or anyone else you please, just let us know who it is going to be and provide the e-mail. If the alternate will be available in the future I will add them to the vet alternates list.

Edit: If you vets are absolutely certain you can't find anyone then we can grant the delay Lingchih has asked for. It will just mean we may not see turn 6 till Monday unless alternates/subs can be found by/for those who are traveling.

[rdonj]

Okay, since it is getting very close to hosting I am going to go ahead and add a postponement while this is sorted out. Hopefully the time will not actually be needed though. Btw I have also been hanging around on irc lately, I just lurk mostly but you can get my attention there too.

[Septimius Severus]

Well looks like the turn did get in.:)

[rdonj]

Overall incomes as of turn 6:

Team Noob gold income: 26945
Team Noob gem income: 143

Team Vet gold income: 11420
Team vet gem income: 71

[TheDemon]

kind of a given that we'll be at more of a disadvantage this game. MA is harder to cheese expansion strats, no NAP favors the noobs since we have to be more cautions not to overextend, and cap income is much larger at 150%.

My apologies for the panic I caused, I thought I had submitted my turn, but either I misremembered or it didn't send. I left for the night and was away the whole day as its Canada Day here. Just got back an hour ago and like 4 people have PMed me on IRC.

[atul]

Well at least you can feel like we missed you while you were away. ;)

I still wish we would've gone with Cleveland's placing suggestion, but can't have it all. It just makes this expansion thing a really careful venture.

...any day now...

[Squirrelloid]

If I can prod the last two unsubmitted turns along - should we get the next turn in like an hour (its 9:30PM central US time now) I can take mine before the weekend.

Yes, my plan is 'miss the holiday traffic by driving really late at night', why do you ask?

[Septimius Severus]

TheDemon, Atul. I think that this time around we really have come as close to balanced as this concept has so far allowed.

I agree that the vets might have a better chance of exploiting an early game NAP to gain a territorial advantage due to their generally quicker rate of expansion and knowledge of various tactics for dealing with the tougher indies, but both sides in theory could take advantage of such a thing.

Regarding map placement, I would point out we are using the vet's own placement suggestion. The symetrical map makes equi-distant and fair starting placement more likely.

The vets do have Ashdod and Vanheim, two solid and strong nations.

The vets have the legendary Dr. Praetorius, and the fabulous Baalz. Whom we expect great things from.:D

Lingchih and TheDemon are both experienced vets as well.

And then there is the ultra powerful Mysterioso.:eek:

Virtual guranteed control of the southern polar province with its 15 neighbors is not a bad thing either.

Yes, I myself probably would have prefered a super wide map with land placements so far apart it would allow for full development and the clashing of large armies no earlier than turn 20 or beyond, but the quality of the map, the symetry, and the strategic element the surrounding sea provinces provide, I think make the map and placement chosen a decent choice.

I just wanted to point out some things, lest either team think they've not been given an equal and fair shake. I would have liked even more experienced vets on the vet side (and dare I say even more first time noobs on the noob team), but we get what we can get, not for lack of trying.

[Squirrelloid]

Ok, I really should have left already, but am now submitting my turn 7 and then leaving for Independence Day weekend.

I'm requesting a delay on turn 8 until monday so i can be sure I can be back in time to play it. I may be able to play and submit it sunday depending on traffic/when i get home, but I'd like to know I don't *have* to. Hope this isn't too much of a delay, and thank you to the last people for getting their files in quickly enough that I could play this turn and not delay us too long.

[Septimius Severus]

Ok, I really should have left already, but am now submitting my turn 7 and then leaving for Independence Day weekend.

I'm requesting a delay on turn 8 until monday so i can be sure I can be back in time to play it. I may be able to play and submit it sunday depending on traffic/when i get home, but I'd like to know I don't *have* to. Hope this isn't too much of a delay, and thank you to the last people for getting their files in quickly enough that I could play this turn and not delay us too long.
Well, have a good trip and holiday (you and anyone else traveling or not) and thanks to you and everyone else for getting any turns in that you can.

[Lavaere]

Thats what the holiday is, it hadn't mentioned Independence Day I wouldn't of known to watch the movie.

[TheDemon]

Sept, I wasn't complaining about the balance, I was just explaining the income gap that rdonj was pointing out. At this point, its logical, and we might never catch up this game, but we'll see where we're at turn 15 or so.

[rdonj]

I'm going to keep posting the total incomes in the noob forum each turn, but I think I will stick to every 5 turns here (starting turn 10) unless someone actually wants a turn by turn total in this thread. I think it's definitely expected for the noobs to hold a strong early gold lead, and probably to maintain a significant advantage for a good length of time even if they do lose. The gold discrepancy probably would have looked similarly scary in the last game, not to mention the first.

Gem income is much more relevant anyway and the vet team seems to be closing the gap there. Of course you're still behind probably over 200 gems in total from the start of the game at this point.

[Septimius Severus]

Sept, I wasn't complaining about the balance, I was just explaining the income gap that rdonj was pointing out. At this point, its logical, and we might never catch up this game, but we'll see where we're at turn 15 or so.
Well, yes, of course. Such an income gap is to be expected with twice as many players on one team as the other. I would expect many other stats to be 2x1 as well, though the deviations from this may signal a shift in the balance of power in favor of one team or another. Something that is worth monitoring as we go forward. Any other stat summaries would be welcome, should anyone wish to do them.

[DrPraetorious]

There's only one meaningful statistic, and we can at best extrapolate:

# of noobs who have the faintest inkling of the beatdown in store for them:
0 / 12 (0%)

It wouldn't be fair to administer such a total shellacking without *some* warning, however. Here again is your clue:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moxibustion

[atul]

DrP, no foreboding on public channels.

These noobs might despair and stop playing before fun starts or something.

[Septimius Severus]

And here I thought you guys just made that one up.

[Septimius Severus]

Noobs beware! :rolleyes:

The vets have launched Operation Moxibustion! :eek:

Must be some sort of desperate suicide attack(s) against a few as yet unknown targets.:D

[atul]

...

Yes.

Exactly that.

[namad]

get a sub to provide an alternate turn for caelum? adding a day to an already 3or4 day turn might not be ideal?

[Squirrelloid]

get a sub to provide an alternate turn for caelum? adding a day to an already 3or4 day turn might not be ideal?

Caelum may submit his turn yet before its due. His active period on the N00b forums has been late night - early morning relative to US time (Possibly he's in Europe?).

[namad]

my comcast services are experiencing trouble.
i am logged in in a lab using unix.

my turn was done yesterday and i used a usb stick to submit it just now (the turn is as was discussed on irc before we stopped discussing it)
hopefully the internet will be fixed tomorrow

[rdonj]

If caelum and eriu don't get their turns in soon I'll postpone the hosting a few hours. If you're working on your turns now you're cutting it awful close.

[Lingchih]

yeah, I think probably give it a day delay. I know Baalz is without reliable internet access.

[rdonj]

Done. I had the feeling baalz wouldn't be around this time of night.

[Baalz]

Sorry guys, the unsecured network I was leeching off of went down. :/ Found another one now, it's at a condo so hopefully it's more reliable.

I was quite misinformed as to the accommodations here. Beachhouse = cabin without a phone much less net connection. Thanks for being flexible! :) Taking my turn now. (in my car parked under this beach condo)

[rdonj]

Overall incomes, turns 4-10:

Team Noob gold income: 106172
Team Noob gem income: 490

Team Vet gold income: 48,835
Team vet gem income: 289

Noob advantage: gold 2.17x, gems 1.7x

[LumenPlacidum]

Sorry guys, the unsecured network I was leeching off of went down. :/ Found another one now, it's at a condo so hopefully it's more reliable.

I was quite misinformed as to the accommodations here. Beachhouse = cabin without a phone much less net connection. Thanks for being flexible! :) Taking my turn now. (in my car parked under this beach condo)

Now THAT's dedication!

[Calahan]

Sorry guys, the unsecured network I was leeching off of went down. :/ Found another one now, it's at a condo so hopefully it's more reliable.

I was quite misinformed as to the accommodations here. Beachhouse = cabin without a phone much less net connection. Thanks for being flexible! :) Taking my turn now. (in my car parked under this beach condo)

Now THAT's dedication!
Or addiction!

[TheDemon]

Hosting interval: Quickhost. First 10 @ 32 hours, 8 hours added every 10 turns thereafter with the maximum to be decided by consensus.

So this is due, but I would like to request to set the hosting timer to 48 hours instead. Both namad and baalz are having internet issues and while they're getting their turns in fine, they don't have the opportunity to review our planning in the current interval. 2 days gives an opportunity to consider input.

I'll also be sending Sept a PM.

[Septimius Severus]

The hosting interval now stands at 40 hours, next turn hosts Friday 5:35 GMT. TheDemon has requested that we jump ahead to a 48 hour hosting interval due to Internet issues with some of the vets. Are there any objections?

[Hoplosternum]

Nope

[Septimius Severus]

Very well, if there are no objections we shall move to a 48 hour host. Do get your turns in as quickly as you can though. Lingchih, as usual I am placing you in charge of turn enforcement.

I must say, I am a bit saddened. :(

What a nail biter!:popcorn:

The action promises to be fast and furious if not rather exhausting mentally.

Well, at least we'll have more time for planning and so forth. :happy:

[atul]

Well it's you well-connected noobs we're still waiting for, all the connection-impaired have submitted turns. So, trying to live forever by delaying the inevitable? Is that life I ask you!

[Lingchih]

Caelum, Agartha, get your turns in.

[Squirrelloid]

I don't suppose there could be ~6 hour delay or somesuch? I'd like to give Agartha and Caelum a chance to actually take their turns, and we haven't heard a peep out of them on the forums in awhile.

[Septimius Severus]

To keep things moving, I was planning on moving to the 48 hour interval as of turn 11, though Caelum and Agartha may be under the impression it applies to the current turn as I did not specify. To keep them from staling, though, we will change the current interval if need be (and it looks like the need may be indeed be there).

[Septimius Severus]

Hosting interval now changed to 48 hours. Reminders sent to Agartha (Pelthin) and Caelum (Skinu).

[Septimius Severus]

On another topic, the vets choice of T'ien Ch'i is interesting. A nation with incredible unit diversity, it is apparently a good choice for those who are expert enough to deploy the right units in the right situations. Though, as with all nations, they've weaknesses that can be exploited. Will be interesting to watch.

[Lingchih]

This is bull****. I expected to get a new turn tonite.
I think the noob team is calling in favors. 48 hour host is enough. Let's get this game going again.

[Squirrelloid]

This is bull****. I expected to get a new turn tonite.
I think the noob team is calling in favors. 48 hour host is enough. Let's get this game going again.

It wasn't scheduled to be a 48 hour host. All Sept did was make it so it actually was a 48 hour host.

That said, would you rather beat us because you actually played better, or because some of our teammates can't seem to get their turns in on time? (Still no idea where Agartha is...).

[atul]

Anyway a little more of discipline regarding turn sending should be warranted. It's always frustrating to see one person being late and game delayed because of it. Nothing encourages you to do your turns in time like a stale turn every now and then.

Of course, acts of god and difficult situations that are announced in advance are a different thing.

[TheDemon]

I think it would be hypocritical to claim these delays are unfair when we vets have requested and gotten our fair share of delays when one of us (ok, mostly me) vanishes as well.

A turn would be nice though.

[atul]

It's no way unfair. Just unfortunate that it keeps taking so long.