Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM. Game Over. Noobs Triumph!

[Septimius Severus]

The vet team has conceded at turn 35. Send in your last turn (35) if you wish.

Congratulations to the victorious noob team.

On behalf of rdonj and myself, thanks to everyone for participating. Hope to see you all again soon in future games.

This is a team game and the final game in the Noobs vs. Vets trilogy.

This time around we continue our focus on magic research but with an added emphasis on somewhat larger armies and bigger battles as befitting the theme and storyline.

Disclaimer: Be forewared that this game concept is not for the timid or the faint of heart and is inherently unbalanced. If the prospect of going up against some of the best players in the game or of facing long odds makes you want to soil yourself or cry out for your mommy, then this game is not for you.

Settings:

Server: Llamaserver ................................. Era: Middle Age ............................... Mods: CBM 1.5
Magic Research: Easy ............................ Special Site Frequency: 40 ............ Indie strength: 4
Score Graphs: On ................................... HOF Entries: 15 .............................. Random Event Frequency: Common
Money, Resource, Supply Multiple: 150...Starting Provinces: 1........................Renaming: On

Game Administrators: Septimius Severus, rdonj.

Team Captains: melnorjr (Noobs), TheDemon (Vets).

Hosting interval: Quickhost. First 10 @ 32 hours, 8 hours added every 10 turns thereafter with the maximum to be decided by consensus.

Victory conditions: No vps/victory, annihilation of opposing team.

Treaties: Both teams will refrain from any hostile actions upon the other team's capital for a period of 5 turns from the start of the game.

Delays: Liberal. Automatically granted provided I receive a PM in time and you post on the thread as well to let everyone know, and there are no major objections.

Team makeup: Noobs will square off against Vets in a ratio equivalent to 2:1.

Qualifications: Noob starting players should be "fresh and green" with limited MP and SP experience (5 or less MP game participation). Vet starting players should either be hall of famers or have extensive MP and SP game experience. More experienced Noobs and less experienced Vets may opt for placement in an alternate slot. New to MP? Check out the Llamaserver FAQ (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?p=529319#post529319")

Alternates: Anyone joining as an alternate must provide an e-mail address on signup via PM and must be willing and available to sub on short notice if need be. Alternates may be selected to fill empty team slots prior to game start.

Team bonuses/privileges: Vets retain the right to veto/object to the participation of any player on either team on the grounds of too much/too little experience. Returning alternates from the previous game will receive priority in nation selection.

Team Forums: Forums for both teams have been created and are expected to be used. Failure to adequately maintain communication and coordination with fellow team members will result in your immediate replacement.

Noob Forum: Team Noob HQ (http://teamnoob.forumotion.net/forum.htm)
Vet Forum: Team Vet HQ (http://teamvet.forumotion.net/index.htm)

Map: Planet Rorschach (see attachment below). Starting locations will be manually placed and are available here: http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showpost.php?p=697561&postcount=364.

Nation Selection: Upon reaching at least the minimum recruitment level (18), nation selection will proceed via ordered list method (by popular demand). Each team will compose a list ranked in order of preference and nations will be awarded on an alternating basis with Noobs starting first. All starting players must be assigned a nation one way or another.

Noob Team.......................................Vet Team
Septimius Severus [Pangaea] ............. Lingchih [Ermor] :rip:
LumenPlacidum [Machaka]................. namad [Ashdod]
viccio [Abysia] .................................. TheDemon [Marignon]
melnorjr [Arcoscephale] ..................... Baalz [Eriu]
Hoplosternum [Bandar Log] ................ atul [Vanheim]
Squirrelloid [Shinuyama] .................... DrPraetorius [T'ien Ch'i]
Joelz
Hoplosternum [Jotunheim] .................. [U]Alternates
Iainuki [Caelum] ................................ Hadrian II
Pelthin [Agartha] ............................... (Open)
TwoBits [Pythium] ............................. (Open)
Raiel [C'tis]

Alternates
Stretch
Skinu
LupusFatalis
(Open)
(Open)
(Open)

Thanks.
IMPERATORCAESARLVCIVSSEPTIVSSEVERVSPERTINAXAVGVSTV SPIVS

[Septimius Severus]

The story so far:

Mysterio could barely conceal his delight from his fellow vet pretender gods. The noob team was defeated, their armies scattered, their leaders killed or driven into exile, and their people forced into squalid servitude. But his revenge while sweet would prove to have a rather unpleasant aftertaste. Mysterio had sucessfuly avenged both the death of his beloved Mysteria and the vet team defeat which led to it, however, due to a miscalutation, Mysterio had no way of rejoining Mysteria nor of determining whether his goal of altering the past and preventing those terrible events from taking place in the future, had been achieved. Mysterio was now trapped in the past and had no way to return to his own time, for the arcane magicks he had used to enable his trip would not be developed for ages to come. He would have to wait. A long, long, long time....

It was a time of sorrow thoughout the whole of the world. For the realization of their defeat and the fear of their impending enslavement drove people everywhere into utter despair. Noob men tore their garments and beat their breasts in disgrace whilst noob women wailed and gnashed their teeth in terror. Unfortunately for the poor noob people, their vet masters turned out to be the cruelest of overseers. Mysterio was especially cruel (trapped as he was in this age), raping women and killing children without mercy. For many generations the noob nations toiled under the oppessive yoke of slavery. But pockets of resistance grew. They were especially strong in what remained of noob nations like Vanheim, Ermor, Mictlan, T'ien chi, and Sauromatia. Thoughout the land a great willing was heard; a growing yearning for freedom. Then one day an assassin of Vanheim murdered Mysterio and the pent-up anguish, misery, and rage of countless noob peoples exploded into a full blown rebellion. Not merely another uprising like so many before, this would be a revolution!!

[Septimius Severus]

To balance it a bit this time, I was considering allowing the vets to retain their advantages and just bump the n:v ratio up to 3:1. I think though that this may scare away even those vets with the gumption to participate in this sort of game, so perhaps it is best to just strip first choice from the vets and stick with 2:1. Suggestions?

If this is the case, then Likely nation selection will be first come, first serve as in the first game, with returning alternates of course having first dibs (a NvV tradition). Of those alternates returning priority would go to the vets (in other words Zeldor and Namad would be pretty much guaranteed their nation choice if they started). I like the alternating idea of one of the vets but I'm not sure how to work that out quickly and efficiently. Suggestions?

With regard to map it may depend on final number of signups but with 24 or so player goal, I'm looking at Balbarian's Aom Ogre Semi Rand or Glory of the Gods (orginal). Even Cleveland's Planet Rorschach is a possibility. Could also ban all water nations and add in some mod nations to prevent any premature hostilities. Suggestions?

Easy research I think should still be retained, though I do want there to be an emphasis on massive armies. To make this possible perhaps maxing out the starting resource and supply multiples. Suggestions?

Special site frequency will likely be scaled back to normal and random events (by popular request) will be common!

Mod nations would also be added if the vets retain first choice to prevent them from monopolizing all the power nations.

[Fakeymcfake]

Could do something similar to what Gregstrom did with his Unsanity game, (ie. have people nominate nations and randomly assign from there). I don't know how many nations you're going for in this bout but it's a good way to keep things fair as people tend to be too cautious to nominate overly powerful nations.

[Lavaere]

well all I know is I want to try Skaven in a MP game. perhaps with a nation I am atleast adequetely good with, or atleast in solo games. I'll be able to put up a fight this time

[TheDemon]

The NAP created a quite interesting situation. I think no matter the odds or nations, a vet will be able to expand at around twice the pace a noob will, as long as he doesn't have to worry about defense. Whether it benefits the game or not on a big map is probably up to debate. On a small map, I would keep it for sure.

Another consideration that I think hurt the noob team in the last game was the starting locations. Not that I want to fault you for them, but this game if they are preset the noob team should be spread over the same number of provs per player as the vet team. I seem to recall discussion on the vet IRC channel that the noob capitals were quite close and there was a big gap between the teams. Obviously its bad especially if you keep the NAP that any of your players get choked for territory early, especially by teammates.

On my alternating nation choice idea, probably the only efficient way would be to have each team work out a ranked list and submit it by PM to a neutral party (or the host). I mean, last game each team pretty much produced a list anyway, and since vets had priority we produced our list first then the noobs produced their list, which technically speaking takes twice the time.

One last thing, make sure you re-specify what counts as noob. Some of your players from the last two games have definitely graduated.

And finally I would have to think long and hard about my participation. I'm not sure I can handle the dedication to another team game.

[TheDemon]

Easy research I think should still be retained, though I do want there to be an emphasis on massive armies. To make this possible perhaps maxing out the starting resource and supply multiples. Suggestions?

Did you guys not like the thug/magic gamestyle we played? See the thing about massive armies is they can't be beat by attrition. It's about force multipliers and about figuring out how to do damage without taking losses. Force multipliers are things like Wailing Winds, Mass Protection, Body Ethereal, Flaming Arrows, Destruction, Storm, and Mass Flight (as Vanheim figured out last turn). As for causing disproportionate casualties, those EK/Yazad groups I used were all or nothing proposals. Either they wiped the floor with next to no casualties or I lose everything. The same goes for thug and SC combat. It doesn't matter how many men you swarm the Jarl with if he has enough reinvig, regen, and a cold aura. When they get close, they get stuck behind their frozen friends, then they get frozen themselves, then they get carved up. If you want to beat him, you have to hit him with something other than more men. That's what combat in Dominions is like. I don't think increasing the resource/supply/gold multipliers is going to change it. I doubt you'll get more than one or two of the vets fielding massive armies even with those changes.

[Septimius Severus]

well all I know is I want to try Skaven in a MP game. perhaps with a nation I am atleast adequetely good with, or atleast in solo games. I'll be able to put up a fight this timeWhat vanilla nations are you familiar with?

[Septimius Severus]

The NAP created a quite interesting situation. I think no matter the odds or nations, a vet will be able to expand at around twice the pace a noob will, as long as he doesn't have to worry about defense. Whether it benefits the game or not on a big map is probably up to debate. On a small map, I would keep it for sure.
So you mean that giant nations such as Hinnom don't have an edge when it comes to expansion? Assuming nation selection is not a factor then, why is it that vets can expand so fast vs indies, what's yer secret? heheh.
Another consideration that I think hurt the noob team in the last game was the starting locations. Not that I want to fault you for them, but this game if they are preset the noob team should be spread over the same number of provs per player as the vet team. I seem to recall discussion on the vet IRC channel that the noob capitals were quite close and there was a big gap between the teams. Obviously its bad especially if you keep the NAP that any of your players get choked for territory early, especially by teammates.
Part of this was due to the quirks of the map. I'm defintaely leaning toward some sort of symetrical evenly distributed map, which will make placement much easier and fairer for all. The distance between teams was intentional. Ideally I'd like it be around turn 20 before contact/hostilities break out. With water nations though, it makes it a bit more difficult. This will give noobs a chance to get some research and prevent the vet team behind overwhelmed by the noob early game numerical superiority as as happened in NvV I. Of course an NAP would have a similar effect.
One last thing, make sure you re-specify what counts as noob. Some of your players from the last two games have definitely graduated.Of course I will and vets will retain veto power as always. You may even disqualify me! :D But you wouldn't do that would ya?

The score is noobs:1 vets:1. This is meant to be the tie breaker. The deciding game.

[Septimius Severus]

Easy research I think should still be retained, though I do want there to be an emphasis on massive armies. To make this possible perhaps maxing out the starting resource and supply multiples. Suggestions?

Did you guys not like the thug/magic gamestyle we played? See the thing about massive armies is they can't be beat by attrition. It's about force multipliers and about figuring out how to do damage without taking losses. Force multipliers are things like Wailing Winds, Mass Protection, Body Ethereal, Flaming Arrows, Destruction, Storm, and Mass Flight (as Vanheim figured out last turn). As for causing disproportionate casualties, those EK/Yazad groups I used were all or nothing proposals. Either they wiped the floor with next to no casualties or I lose everything. The same goes for thug and SC combat. It doesn't matter how many men you swarm the Jarl with if he has enough reinvig, regen, and a cold aura. When they get close, they get stuck behind their frozen friends, then they get frozen themselves, then they get carved up. If you want to beat him, you have to hit him with something other than more men. That's what combat in Dominions is like. I don't think increasing the resource/supply/gold multipliers is going to change it. I doubt you'll get more than one or two of the vets fielding massive armies even with those changes.
The resource and supply multiples are being considered as they fit in with the story and theme. Massive amounts of troops (think Spartacus) befitting a major slave uprising. Of course the vets would have the same benefit and giant nations would benefit of course.

In your example, yes, you make good points, assuming the massed troops attacking the Jarl are not immune to cold and or have other buffs. The good thing about Dom3 for every effect/spell there is a counter.

[Lavaere]

well all I know is I want to try Skaven in a MP game. perhaps with a nation I am atleast adequetely good with, or atleast in solo games. I'll be able to put up a fight this timeWhat vanilla nations are you familiar with?

Concerning MA vanilla nations. Shinuyama and Man for which I have been quickly dispatched come MP games

[TheDemon]

So you mean that giant nations such as Hinnom don't have an edge when it comes to expansion? Assuming nation selection is not a factor then, why is it that vets can expand so fast vs indies, what's yer secret? heheh.

Sure, giant nations are easy to expand with. But if that's your reason, then how is it that Caelum, Helheim and Atlantis were able to keep pace? According to my turn 10 .trn, Niefel had 18, Atlantis had 19, Helheim had 21, Caelum had 22, and Hinnom had 24. My personal benchmark for a "usable" expansion strategy is 20 provs uncontested using default settings by turn 11 (late winter year 1). If I can't achieve that in a test game, I won't use that pretender build.

Part of this was due to the quirks of the map. I'm defintaely leaning toward some sort of symetrical evenly distributed map, which will make placement much easier and fairer for all. The distance between teams was intentional. Ideally I'd like it be around turn 20 before contact/hostilities break out. With water nations though, it makes it a bit more difficult. This will give noobs a chance to get some research and prevent the vet team behind overwhelmed by the noob early game numerical superiority as as happened in NvV I. Of course an NAP would have a similar effect.

Ideally you want no pressure on the noobs early, that's true. I mean, its no fun to lose early. But to reach turn 20 without borders, you'd have to have like 40+ provs between each vet and the noob team, plus however many you think the noob will need. Under a normal sized map (15 provs per player), you're going to get borders on about turn 6 or so. I mean, you can force the first battle to delay until turn whatever with a NAP, but that doesn't change that during those 20 turns of "research" the vet team snaps up indies at a ridiculous rate, and also in turns 10 to 20 get a kick-start on their fort-building and research. It's conceivable that by turn 20 the vets would have a higher team total on every single graph except maybe army size. After this game I don't think you can dispute that a similar vet team is capable of that under a 20 turn NAP.

[TheDemon]

Rather than just talking about problems instead of solutions, let's talk a bit about actual settings. 24 players is a lot. There aren't even 24 MA nations (there are 23). Even with one or two of the more balanced mod nations, you'd be hard pressed to not include at least one water nation. I think a 2:1 ratio is best. Its proven fair in both games as the series is tied. Obviously the outcome of the games was determined by other settings or perhaps by the play of the players. So in that case, why not all 3 water nations, but two are noob and one is vet.

I will say one thing on playercount, 24 players can make for an extremely tedious game. 24 players necessitates a huge map and the micro on huge maps is extremely annoying, and the game will drag out far longer which also equates more micro. Not to mention larger teams are harder to coordinate. A better format might be two 4 vs 8 games. Of course, you seem quite set on 24 players, so if it appeals to you go ahead.

I don't think there's anything wrong with a NAP, just keep in mind the consequences.

Same goes for changing supply or resource settings. I would stay away from messing with gold as that can really screw a game up.

I think using some system to distribute "power nations" is probably best not only in terms of balance but also because you want both teams to have a decent spread of magic and strategy availability.

[Lingchih]

I don't know. I'm kind of coming around to the idea of a large scale game for the final game of the series. Maybe 21 nations, so you could keep it even without adding in a mod nation to hit 24. It would be a grandiose game, but it is summertime now, and a lot of players have more free time.

I'm still not sure that I would play, and the idea of finding 7 vets to play seems a bit optimistic, since we had a hard time finding five for this last game.

[Septimius Severus]

Demon, yeah I was thinking of 2 water nations for the noobs and 1 for the vets using a 24 nations (1 mod nation if needed) that would even out to about 16:8 . 2 or those slots could be interchangable though depending on actual signups. so it could be 18:6 (slightly a bit more than 2:1) but still reasonable. I'll likely use a slot system for both starting nations and alternates. If all available slots cannot be filled we'd of course have to start with fewer.

To combat any expansion issues, I'll likely break up the noob team into informal groups of say 4 a piece, Northern, Eastern, Southern, and Western noobs. More spread out and arrange geographically.

Hmm, how can we enable the noobs to expand at the same rate as the vets (nation selection aside)?

My first thought was droping indy strengh all the way down, that way both sides could expand equally fast (though it would shorten the time before initial contact).

Another idea, and one that ties in with the large armies the noobs are supposed to be able to field, would be say to give the noobs favorable cap locations that would result in an initial bonus in terms of gold, resources, supplies etc. I think that prov neighbors has something to do with it (since the cap is a fortress). But other things such as farm provinces may effect this as well? Anyone know what province terrain types yield more resources, supplies, gold? This would enable the noobs to field larger initial armies and thus ease their expansions woes a bit.

AOM Ogre map which is built for 24 has some interesting placement possibilities and is rather symetrical. Cleveland's maps has fewer provinces and works well with 24 nations too. But I suppose actual player signups would determine which map we finally use. If we can get the full 24 then the aforemention maps might work very well, if not well a smaller map with a symertrical design will work fine too. I am definately shooting for the 24. Even if we've got to do alot of invites and advertising. :)

AOM Ogre has the benefit of being able to put a bit of water in between teams. In a game without water nations, that would I believe slow up the initial contact a bit.

AOM would be 24/416 = avg. 17 or so provinces per player.
Rorschacht would be 24/375 = 15 or so provinces per player.

Comments?

[TheDemon]

I think part of my point was vets have the knowledge to quickly find or the endurance to test until they get a pretender build and army quantity + scripting strategy that works really well for whatever nation. That is, part of what makes a vet a vet is he is able to expand faster than a noob, generally speaking. Unless you remove indeps completely, you're not going to be able to avoid this. And if you did that, there would be no expansion strategy at all, and little to no pretender build strategy. Those are a massive part of Dominions strategy and should be included in the learning experience.

18:6 is literally 3:1 so saying its slightly a bit more than 2:1 is a bit off. 17:7 would make more sense.

[Stretch]

I'm not sure about this one. Dragging it out isn't going to help much... with 17 people we'll still almost definitely be saddled with people who either are basically non-participants, or with players that have absolutely terrible initial expansions (but who we're not allowed to just steamroll and absorb in a couple turns).

I'm not sure who from the noob side is interested in playing some more but I'd like to do more strategizing with the 6-7 other noobs who were active on the messageboards (counting rdonj and Grudgebringer in that) and play 4 or so vets. TheDemon said that some of them were getting pretty good... why not even the stakes a bit in terms of players per team and get us all on an equal playing field in terms of communication and having at least a basic idea of how to play the game.

[quantum_mechani]

I'm not sure about this one. Dragging it out isn't going to help much... with 17 people we'll still almost definitely be saddled with people who either are basically non-participants, or with players that have absolutely terrible initial expansions (but who we're not allowed to just steamroll and absorb in a couple turns).

I'm not sure who from the noob side is interested in playing some more but I'd like to do more strategizing with the 6-7 other noobs who were active on the messageboards (counting rdonj and Grudgebringer in that) and play 4 or so vets. TheDemon said that some of them were getting pretty good... why not even the stakes a bit in terms of players per team and get us all on an equal playing field in terms of communication and having at least a basic idea of how to play the game.I wholeheartedly agree. Huge teams are just not that fun, and as you say there are bound to be non-participants. Also, I think finding enough vets for the huge game would be quite hard. Out of the five vets in the last game, I counted two that will probably not play in this one no matter the settings, and two (including myself) that would need some convincing.

[rdonj]

You raise a good point about potential non-participants. It's probably unavoidable that in any game of that size you'll have more people who are uncommunicative than you will in a smaller game. So it would be far easier to make a smaller game work out well. Septimius, what do you think about a little bit of a compromise. Go with the high resource/gold settings, or just start the noobs in much richer areas with perhaps some resource bonus sites (you could go with the idea that the uprisings are happening in slave camps, where workers are being forced to mine for the vets, something like that), but stay with a similar number of players to the last one. You would still get the massive uprising feeling, but keep the game more manageable at the same time.

I'm not sure if you recall or not stretch, but I wasn't playing this game except for two turns as fomoria to prevent stales :). I'll stick around since I'm admin of the noob forum anyway, although I was definitely starting to feel I was repeating myself towards the end there.... I might be interested in playing that game but it's not really noobs vs vets, is it? Perhaps graduate school :P If you like the idea you might have better luck organizing it on the side rather than making a noobs vs vets game out of it.

[Stretch]

Oh, right, you have almost 1000 posts on this forum. Whoops. You certainly seemed to know what you were talking about on the noob forum, I was thinking 'damn, I wish this guy was around earlier'.

A smaller game would be something like

Rdonj, the great communicator, awakes from a long imprisonment to find the world a twisted shadow. Its dewy innocence has been plundered by the rampaging vets, and the noob races toil under the harsh yoke of slavery. As the years passed, two of the five lords of old grew sated with the spoils of war, and through dark rituals, transcended to another plane to search for the missing Pantokrator.

The remaining vets ponder their future as their depraved servants rule in their stead. They withdraw into their gleaming castles, and slowly the land returns to scattered fiefdoms ruled by independent barons. The taxes flow into the vet capitals, but their eyes turn towards the stars and they ponder following their two departed brethren.

Unbeknownst to them, the spirits of some old noob pretenders have found new hosts. They awaken to find the world hazy and indistinct, as many things have changed since last they roamed the world. They wait, poised to take a new capital from one of the many fiefdoms, and seek vengeance.

Will the noob menace force the vets to gaze once more upon this world, or will they follow their peers into the stars, leaving the battle to another seasoned warlord? What side will Rdonj lend his aid to? Have the noobs learned enough from their imprisonment to end the threat of vet tyranny once and for all?

Something to keep in mind if you don't get your full 16/7 complement, Septimus.

[Lavaere]

have you thought about starting with more then 1 region

[rdonj]

Oh, right, you have almost 1000 posts on this forum. Whoops. You certainly seemed to know what you were talking about on the noob forum, I was thinking 'damn, I wish this guy was around earlier'.

A smaller game would be something like

Rdonj, the great communicator, awakes from a long imprisonment to find the world a twisted shadow. Its dewy innocence has been plundered by the rampaging vets, and the noob races toil under the harsh yoke of slavery. As the years passed, two of the five lords of old grew sated with the spoils of war, and through dark rituals, transcended to another plane to search for the missing Pantokrator.

The remaining vets ponder their future as their depraved servants rule in their stead. They withdraw into their gleaming castles, and slowly the land returns to scattered fiefdoms ruled by independent barons. The taxes flow into the vet capitals, but their eyes turn towards the stars and they ponder following their two departed brethren.

Unbeknownst to them, the spirits of some old noob pretenders have found new hosts. They awaken to find the world hazy and indistinct, as many things have changed since last they roamed the world. They wait, poised to take a new capital from one of the many fiefdoms, and seek vengeance.

Will the noob menace force the vets to gaze once more upon this world, or will they follow their peers into the stars, leaving the battle to another seasoned warlord? What side will Rdonj lend his aid to? Have the noobs learned enough from their imprisonment to end the threat of vet tyranny once and for all?

Something to keep in mind if you don't get your full 16/7 complement, Septimus.

Lol. I'm not that great, I am just good at absorbing information. But I don't count myself as a noob anymore, which is why I stayed out of noobs vs vets 2. Doesn't mean I don't still have, well, a lot of bad habits.

And I was around the entire time since I was doing a lot of the maintenance. I was providing advice most of the game, not so much early on though since you guys weren't really being that informative and I had no real idea how the game was going until I stepped in for fomoria. Reading the vet forum right now I'm getting a much better picture overall of the game. So I just chimed in when people were looking for ideas.

[Septimius Severus]

18:6 is literally 3:1 so saying its slightly a bit more than 2:1 is a bit off. 17:7 would make more sense.
That was a typo. 18:6 is 3:1 you are correct.

[Septimius Severus]

Stretch and QM:
We basically had the same noob team size in both NvV and NvV II (10). We didn't have any issues in the first game but had some bad luck in II. In addition to the informal expansion groups I mentioned, this time around any player not participating in the forum and coordinating with neigbors will be replaced. I'm not tolerating it anymore. So you guys needn't worry.

[Septimius Severus]

have you thought about starting with more then 1 region
Never really considered it. It would tend to shorten the initial contact period I would think and apply to both noobs and vets alike. Unless there is a way to start just the noobs with 2 regions.

Giving the noobs good starting provinces (rivers, farms, etc.) would give an initial boost to the noobs and help even out the expansion gap. I'd like to see both teams expanding at even pace, whatever we can do to achieve this lets do it.

If the vets are against it though I might tie it into the story line and provide it as a bonus for those noobs and vets who take nations from NvV II (I.e. Vanheim, Ermor, Ashdod). Though I don't see why they would be.

I think first come, first serve nation selection is quickest and fairest. Just be quick and you get what you want. 2 phases (Alternates first) then the rest of us.
Keep those suggestions coming though.

[Septimius Severus]

I'm not sure who from the noob side is interested in playing some more but I'd like to do more strategizing with the 6-7 other noobs who were active on the messageboards (counting rdonj and Grudgebringer in that) and play 4 or so vets. TheDemon said that some of them were getting pretty good... why not even the stakes a bit in terms of players per team and get us all on an equal playing field in terms of communication and having at least a basic idea of how to play the game.

I was thinking of something like that too. After this game is finished and the trilogy is complete (and I can retire from admining). A post NvV game featuring noob graduates vs vets on an 1:1 basis. Rdonj could organize and admin as well as playing in it if so desired. Rdonj, Grudge, Lavaere, myself, Darloth are the only ones so far that have participated in the entire series so far. But pyg, or anyone else who had participated and feels they learned enough could also participate. If rdonj didn't want to I suppose I could come out of retirement to do so.

Good story writing btw Stretch. Heh. Slave revolts always involve massive numbers, that is the one thing they have on their side versus their masters.

[rdonj]

Lumenplacidum was in both games as well. I'm on the fence about playing. On the one hand, it would be great fun. On the other hand, I'm trying to cut down on my dominions time and focus on other things so I really shouldn't. I'd have to see about it if/when we got there.

I think first come, first serve nation selection is quickest and fairest. Just be quick and you get what you want. 2 phases (Alternates first) then the rest of us.
Keep those suggestions coming though.

What if both teams submit a list, with nations in order of preference. The vet team gets their first pick. Then the noob team gets their first pick, unless it's the vet team's first pick, in which case they get their second pick. And so on. Or you could do it pretty much the same way, but organized by player and the player gets their first/second. You'd still be giving the nation picking advantage to the vet team, but the process would probably go faster and allow the noobs to deny the vets some of the tougher nations. You'd probably have to run the lists through a third party though, to prevent anyone from trying to game the system by making alterations based on the other teams list.

[Lavaere]

each team makes a list. then we go down the lists. vets top choice, noobs top choice, and we keep alternating like that. if the nation is taken you go to there next pick down the list.
once the nations have been chosen this way. just hand them out to your members.

[LumenPlacidum]

Has there been a decision as to the Age being played? I know we haven't done a Mid Era game, and I kind of want to try out one of those angel-summoning nations (lol, if I survive to that point).

As far as settings, any situation where we're throwing more resources and gold into the game is an advantage for the veteran players. Anyone can spend money, but the more you have, the more benefit you get if you spend it efficiently! It's much easier to manage your resources when inexperienced if those resources are relatively sparse. As such, I'm in favor of having standard gold and standard resources.

For nation picks, I think Lavaere's idea of having teams alternate picks is probably good. The vets will organize anyway, but it'll help the Noob team to try to decide how to cover the bases of what we can manage to do before the game starts, so that we end up actually having top picks in the first place.

Dropping magic site frequency is probably a good idea for the same reason as the gold/resources thing above, except that it's far easier to waste gems than gold.

Starting with more than one province is an interesting possibility. I'm not sure what the long-term effects of that would be except that they'd make nations with relatively expensive cap-only options have better starts with the initial gold boost that would fade away.

Regardless of the options, they all really need to be posted BEFORE any nation selections are made. We had some issues with that before.

[atul]

Yeah, I'd really advice adhering to old programmers' paradigm, KISS (Keep It Simple).

The more strange variations you do, the more confusing it gets. The more things game manager loads for his team, the more prejudiced it appears. And so on. It has been shown that 2:1 ratio with standard settings has given results that depend on organization and co-operation of the teams, and that's what this kind of game should strive towards.

Vet team should have some advantage early on thanks to the huge outnumbering factor. First picks on nations is one of those, at least they can make sure they're not overtaken by early expanders so early in the game it hasn't even begun yet. If noobs get all extra resources and stuff you should give vets something too, like extra gem income. Not much use early on but nice to have at some point. Just an example. But easiest, most straightforward way would be just play it straight and not juggle any freebies around.

Oh, and one thing. If someone who places teams on the map plays for either team, the other team should have a say in where they are placed. Just for it to appear fair. We had some issues with that before, to quote a guy with good points in his post.

Yet I must disagree with lower magic site freq than usual. It just drops down the variety in the game, as some nations do depend on high magic while others go for steel.

But, if it's still intended as noobs vs vets, keep it simple. Mod nations and other nonstandard settings just make the game bizarre, not better.

[Ironhawk]

Yeah dont go above 2:1. We won the last game and perhaps from the noob perspective it looked like we were steamrolling you. But the truth is that all of our offensives were balanced on a knife's edge. The only reason we werent wiped out was because we were organized and experienced.

And about balancing expansion: as Demon said, why would you want to do that? The ability to intelligently exploit the strengths of your nation and the weaknesses of certain indy's is a hallmark of experience. Don't overreact to the 2:1 land advantage the vets had because you have to remember that there were 2x as many noobs. The lands held by each team were basically the same.

Lastly, about the big armies: is your rationale for this only thematic? Cause building huge armies is actually bad training for noobs. Huge armies have a very short useful life in the early part of the game only.

[Septimius Severus]

Good suggestions by all of you. Sorry Lumen forgot about you for sec, and who could forget that awesome defense work you did in NvVI.

As usual there are many issues to tackle in arriving at settings that are fair to both sides. I can't make everybody happy, but I hope that everyone realizes that I have and will continue to strive to be as fair and impartial as possible.

Which is why I'm recommending a symetrical map this time around (not as pretty to look at) but nations can be placed at equal and even distances and so forth. I am a big fan or even numbers and order.

I don't want to come in at turn 10 and see a huge disparity in expansion and province totals. It is kinda like how you'd rather watch a sports game that is tied at the halfway mark, you know that their is excitement ahead rather than getting the feeling it's already over.

While I believe yes, the vets experience should account for a somewhat quicker expansion pace, we should take care that the vets don't have first pick at all the power nations to insure that this expansion gap doesn't get out of hand. Do you guys get where I'm coming from?

Hence my suggestion of giving the noobs nations a bit of a boost in their cap. This will be especially important if the vets recieve first choice, in some form or fashion. If we create lists to alternate between would the noob nations know how best to fashion theirs?

QM, what is the lastest version of CBM?

[rdonj]

CBM is at version 1.5.

[namad]

i think having noobs play mod nations is not within the spirit of the word noob.

it would be INSANE to jack resources up.... it would just cause EVERYONE to take sloth3 even nations who usually don't... the reason people don't use massive armies is just because of what thedemon said... massive armies isn't a good tactic!

i'm willing to play provided the game is setup reasonably and at least some of the vets return to play (i remember a few saying they might not agree to play given your drastic changes in game setting)

[Septimius Severus]

The main post is being updated. Everyone, please refer to it for the current status of proposed settings. It is your one-stop location for most things pertaining to the game.

[namad]

also just by definition...

first come first serve is the LEAST fair system of distributing nations.... ... seriously there is literally no system that is less fair than this system in any way at all




it is however the fairest system of distributing TICKETS to real life events... as the date of the ticket sales is posted well in advance... however... many places have begun having lotteries to determine the order in which a person can try to buy tickets for real life events


in fact if you went with first come first serve i might refuse to play just on principle of a person thinking this system was in some way fair

[TheDemon]

I think taking first choice from the vets would be fine, as long as they don't get stuck with last choice either. Probably the most balanced is alternating choice, but noobs get first pick. If the ordered list method is too clunky, you could pick team captains and let them call nations. Obviously this would be according to whatever private discussions among the team, but the point is to have only one really active person calling picks so they go quickly.

On cap-specific terrain modifiers, that isn't going to work, I don't think you can mod the terrain of a cap in a way that affects its gold or resources. If you really wanted you could mod the provs surrounding the cap to have a higher population. I'm not too sure on the details. Higher pop will mean more gold/resources. Personally I'm not sure a terrain boost is necessary, but I think the vets can play around it as long as they aren't terrain nerfed.

[Septimius Severus]

I think taking first choice from the vets would be fine, as long as they don't get stuck with last choice either. Probably the most balanced is alternating choice, but noobs get first pick. If the ordered list method is too clunky, you could pick team captains and let them call nations. Obviously this would be according to whatever private discussions among the team, but the point is to have only one really active person calling picks so they go quickly.

On cap-specific terrain modifiers, that isn't going to work, I don't think you can mod the terrain of a cap in a way that affects its gold or resources. If you really wanted you could mod the provs surrounding the cap to have a higher population. I'm not too sure on the details. Higher pop will mean more gold/resources. Personally I'm not sure a terrain boost is necessary, but I think the vets can play around it as long as they aren't terrain nerfed.

Hmm, don't provinces with rivers, farms, mountains get bonuses? The editor I know provides a way to add them and they can be added I beleive via the text file.

If a starting province has two land neighbors vs a province with three land neightbors, will the one with three neighbors have a gold bonus? Lets see if we can get answers to these questions.

[Septimius Severus]

each team makes a list. then we go down the lists. vets top choice, noobs top choice, and we keep alternating like that. if the nation is taken you go to there next pick down the list.
once the nations have been chosen this way. just hand them out to your members.
That is workable, not the quickest way, but workable, though I think that the noobs should go first. I am concerned though: Will we be as good at fashioning this list as the vets, in order to achieve our goals?
And what of the alternate first choice benefit, should this ordered list be done after an returning alternates get their picks? or should we drop the alternate first choice entitlement all together. I like to keep it as a way of rewarding alternates who may not have gotten a chance to play and as an enticement to play in this one, though I suppose it may not get used.

[namad]

i think that gold bonus from forts is only determined by admin and current province income

while the neighboring province effect you speak of is related to resources of adjacent provinces and admin

[atul]

You can add more income and resources to capital by increasing its population.

Though Sept should define his notion of balance. At which point should vets be able to come even for it to be "balanced"? Or should they be constant underdogs?

[rdonj]

You can also add starting sites to the capitol that would give bonii. You can have them give extra gold, gems, or resources to the cap province. For the record I don't think a boost is necessary either, I am just offering ideas as to how it could be done :).

I don't think it really matters if the noob team is as good at fashioning a list as the vets. Chances are trying to go for a perfect team setup to play against the vet team just would not work for a noob team. They would do better and have more fun playing nations that they know/want to play. Of course they would also do better if the vets didn't have all the high-powered nations for the era, which I think is probably the best way to nerf the vets in this game.

[Calahan]

I am just a third-party follower of this series of games, but don't forget that giving a noob a nice chunky gold increase on his capital just means an extra bonus to the vet that takes it off him :D

Joking aside, my outsiders advice to the noobs is to get the SP practice games going, and learn to conquer Indy's with the minimum number of troops possible. Since that is where a large part of the vets advantage over the noobs occurs in the first 10-15 turns. Some of the nations with good sacreds only need 3-4 troops to expand with using the right bless, so sending an army of 20-30 of the same troops can sometimes translate into expanding 5 times slower than a vet would in the same circumstances.

For example, try MA Ermor with an S9 bless. Use an army of Thaumaturg + 4 Shadow Vestals + 4 cheap Tower Shielded arrow decoys. This costs about 300gp and will take out most Indys, and what is key is that it can be recruited every turn to maximise quick expansion.

This is just one quick example, and there are many more like this for practically any half decent bless nation. Even some of the non bless nations have tough enough troops to allow expansion with just minimum numbers (eg.Abysia). And the best way to learn them I find is through trial and error in SP games :) Since the first few turns of SP games are very similar to the first few turns of MP games. It's only after those first few turns that MP and SP games vary completely.

[Septimius Severus]

I am just a third-party follower of this series of games, but don't forget that giving a noob a nice chunky gold increase on his capital just means an extra bonus to the vet that takes it off him :D

Joking aside, my outsiders advice to the noobs is to get the SP practice games going, and learn to conquer Indy's with the minimum number of troops possible. Since that is where a large part of the vets advantage over the noobs occurs in the first 10-15 turns. Some of the nations with good sacreds only need 3-4 troops to expand with using the right bless, so sending an army of 20-30 of the same troops can sometimes translate into expanding 5 times slower than a vet would in the same circumstances.

For example, try MA Ermor with an S9 bless. Use an army of Thaumaturg + 4 Shadow Vestals + 4 cheap Tower Shielded arrow decoys. This costs about 300gp and will take out most Indys, and what is key is that it can be recruited every turn to maximise quick expansion.

This is just one quick example, and there are many more like this for practically any half decent bless nation. Even some of the non bless nations have tough enough troops to allow expansion with just minimum numbers (eg.Abysia). And the best way to learn them I find is through trial and error in SP games :) Since the first few turns of SP games are very similar to the first few turns of MP games. It's only after those first few turns that MP and SP games vary completely.

Very good information, true the right selection of troops (and Vets know all that stuff), is I'm sure more efficient at expanding than simply clobering the indies with numbers, though I am sure both will work. The noobs I am targeting though, have very little SP or MP experience working with the different units of each nation and the in's and out's of n4 bless versus a n8 (or is it n9) bless.

Personally, I have never really taken the time to experiment with such things. (I just recently learned that there is another level of bless beyond level 4!). Some noobs just pick units they like and use those to expand with. But I am noobs noob if ever there were one or a more casual player if you will. :D

I am glad we do have a fan base though. Lets keep the input coming, especially from outsiders.

I am going to try an experiment with terrain types and starting location income,etc. I'll post my results in a bit.

[Septimius Severus]

It is either that or setting Indy strength = 0 or 1. Aside from the noobs getting smart all of a sudden, those are the only two measures I can think of to address this expansion gap. Choose your poison.

[namad]

what gap do you specifically mean? if you set indie strength=0 and give the noobs twice as many starting forts as the vets... the noobs will literally expand at twice the rate of the vets and by turn 6-8 or so will have double the vets income province count and gem score... is that what you are going for? additionally indie strength 0 will decrease the first turn on which conflict occurs dramatically... something you said you wanted to increase?

[Septimius Severus]

Namad, No I don't want the noobs to expand at double the pace of the vets merely to keep up as best as possible. Your right indie strength at 0 would result in a lightning fast game and quick conflict.

I've completed my tests. As mentioned terrain modifiers in the cap itself resulted in only a miniscule increase, it is also tied in to the graphics of the map, making a province a farm just doesn't mesh with the look (though it would work). I could locate the noobs in caps with lots of surrounding favorable provinces and neigbors but that might throw off my even placement scheme.

I think the best idea and most fair and consistent with the theme would be to just increase the population (as already suggested) in the cap's of the noobs to 50000 (the max I can set) which will give a slight bonus to the noobs to ease their expansion difficulties.

[namad]

as far as i can tell in game 1 the noobs expanded faster than the vets and in game two it was a dead tie?


you still haven't specifically explained what this gap is that you are talking about... i have no idea what you are referring to... making it hard for me to comment

[Lingchih]

Noobs vs. Vets 2 was the optimal settings. You just did not have the placement to get all the noobs into the fight. Some kind of equidistant map would solve that.

[Illuminated One]

Well, I agree mostly to namad here the expansion rates were ok, maybe a slightly lower indie strength (4) is ok but 0 will easily result in a huge lead for the noob team and will destroy much strategy. 1st turn take 3 provs. 2nd turn take 3 provs and recruit 3 commanders. 3rd turn take 6 provs. etc.
However I don't think the settings were completely perfect. At turn 10 you were larger than us and all in all we were unable to go on offense after that. The game ended around turn 30. The ideal balance would be imo to give the noobs just that much advantage, that it goes on for 60 turns or so.
However if the initial nation pick advantage is gone this already has to count as a boost for the noob team.

[atul]

Much of the early start was due to EA having stronger national troops and weaker indies. Wouldn't think MA had similar problem.

And 50k capitals are insane. Noobs already get double income thanks to their numbers, that advantage would give them quadruple the money. Just organize better and it's going to be a close fight.

[Calahan]

Just another outsiders comment :) but doesn't enhancing the noob start locations go against part of the idea of this game?

My understanding is that this game series is between a team of new players against a team of vets, with the noobs obviously hoping to pull off a surprise against their esteemed opponents. But above all else, isn't the idea of this game to help the noobs learn how to compete better in MP games? Either from their own endeavours, or from picking stuff up from the vets. If that is the main aim though, then giving the noobs handouts at the start to compensate their poor expansion technique is defeating the point of the exercise.

Being able to expand well against the Indys is a key part to all MP games, and if you don't learn how to do this properly, then you don't compete in MP games full stop. So IMO there's no point skipping around the issue by plying the noobs with large sacks of gold, since they can't expect to ever have that advantage in any other MP games. So while it may help them in the here and now, it will probably do more harm than good for the noob player overall, since the noobs in question will still keep using bad expansion technique in future games, instead of encouraging them to learn a better technique right now. I think the same also goes for lowering Indy strength.

My two pennies worth, for what it's worth, is that you should keep Indys on at least 5, and the noobs just have to learn to expand better. Since if that is the main problem, then it's best to tackle it head-on rather than trying to compensate for it. And again if my understanding is correct, if the noobs do learn how to expand better because of this game, then it can already be considered a success regardless of the end result :)

[Ironhawk]

It is either that or setting Indy strength = 0 or 1. Aside from the noobs getting smart all of a sudden, those are the only two measures I can think of to address this expansion gap. Choose your poison.

Sept, seriously, you need to let go of your expansion gap fixation. I just finished reading the noob forums from 2 and its clear that you considered the game practically over by turn 10 just from looking at our expansion. Thats just crazy! You are overlooking the fact that on a *team basis* the noobs and vets were 1:1 for lands in that game. And I can tell you quite honestly that if noob organization and tactics had been just slightly better the game could have gone quite differently.

[rdonj]

Personally I would just use the same settings as the last game except without the NAP, and changing the vets get to pick all their nations first rule. I guess some of the vets later decided the NAP did help the noobs out, but I'm not completely sure about that.

I think the noobs did do pretty well in the last game. I don't think they need as big a boost as 50,000 population in the capitol to be competetive, definitely. If you want to give a small boost to expansion ability, maybe set indies one lower than normal. Much more than that is probably not necessary, and would most certainly taint any noob victory that came from it. If you really want the theme of large armies you can still go with 125-150% gold and resources, but you should probably stay awsay from team-specific advantages to prevent it from looking biased.

[rdonj]

It is either that or setting Indy strength = 0 or 1. Aside from the noobs getting smart all of a sudden, those are the only two measures I can think of to address this expansion gap. Choose your poison.

Sept, seriously, you need to let go of your expansion gap fixation. I just finished reading the noob forums from 2 and its clear that you considered the game practically over by turn 10 just from looking at our expansion. Thats just crazy! You are overlooking the fact that on a *team basis* the noobs and vets were 1:1 for lands in that game. And I can tell you quite honestly that if noob organization and tactics had been just slightly better the game could have gone quite differently.

Especially if things had gone slightly better in sauromatia. Hopefully after having been able to look at the vets forum for this game the next noob team will better understand what they need to do to be competetive.

[LumenPlacidum]

I'm all for going with the same settings in this as in NvV2. The expansion really is something we have to learn. Actually just by following Calahan's comments and testing, I realized that I've been using about 10x too many troops to expand with some of my better nations. If we just accept it as something we need to practice then we will and we'll be better at it next time. So much better to fix a problem within the framework of a system of rules rather than changing the rules.

[TheDemon]

Personally I would just use the same settings as the last game except without the NAP, and changing the vets get to pick all their nations first rule. I guess some of the vets later decided the NAP did help the noobs out, but I'm not completely sure about that.

Its not so much as the NAP helped the noobs rather than it didn't really affect either team. We far enough seperated from the other team that, while we might have skirmished and you guys might have raided, we weren't ready to start full-scale offensives until turn 11.

I think the NAP helped the vets more, had you been allowed to raid us it would have helped stem our team prov advantage. I just think it was overall it was pretty pointless.

[atul]

Probably one of the biggest effect of the NAP was that I was able to take many provinces near C'tis' capital and tax them at 200% for five turns in a row before he could've take them back. Without a NAP wouldn't have bothered, but don't think it affected things much.

[P3D]

Old settings were just as fine. There were three main problems.
a/ suboptimal Noob placement. Mictlan was right in the middle, and capitals were too close.
b/ Atlantis got the seas uncontested
c/ two players with strong nations ignored the forum.

A nation with the income of two smaller ones is stronger due to having twice the research (very simplified, but still).

BTW, I won't play in this game.

[Lavaere]

Yeah same setting ares fine, as long as there ain't no stinking NAP.

Why couldn't anyone give the monkeys some lov'n

[namad]

on turn 5 50-75% of the income of a nation comes from his capital

1:1 provinces still means 3:2 in income

[Stretch]

(I just recently learned that there is another level of bless beyond level 4!).


Maybe we can get someone else to figure out the settings? ;) Seriously though, noobs have advantage of numbers so cap population should be the same, luck the standard setting, research something reasonable etc... whatever the most common game settings are. Also, are there any vets still messing around in NvV2? Pretty quiet last turn, but it might be the calm before the storm. If everyone's getting sleepy then we can call it quits. Let me know.

[Stretch]

BTW, I'm about to start another game as vanheim. Anyone with some tips on early research and pretender build, I'm all ears for any advice you have (please PM... I have a basic strategy laid out based on successes and failures in this past game but for obvious reasons don't want to lay it out here).

[atul]

Also, are there any vets still messing around in NvV2? Pretty quiet last turn, but it might be the calm before the storm. If everyone's getting sleepy then we can call it quits. Let me know.
Staling data can be seen from llamaserver:

http://www.llamaserver.net/doAdminAction.cgi?game=NoobsvsVetsIIMysteriosReven ge&action=showstales

It would appear quitting the game is the thing to do.

[Septimius Severus]

Calahan has some good points that I cannot dispute. Good comments by all. The use of a symmetrical map (something we should have used from the start), removal of the vets first choice and sole sea nation priveledges, should definately help the noobs, essentially a return to NvVI. Hopefully, the vets won't be overun as they were in the first game. Though I am still concerned about noob expansion, we will nix the noob pop bonus and lower the multiples to 150.

Stay abreast of the main post for settings and info, recruitment is beginning.

[Septimius Severus]

Also, are there any vets still messing around in NvV2? Pretty quiet last turn, but it might be the calm before the storm. If everyone's getting sleepy then we can call it quits. Let me know.
Staling data can be seen from llamaserver:

http://www.llamaserver.net/doAdminAction.cgi?game=NoobsvsVetsIIMysteriosReven ge&action=showstales

It would appear quitting the game is the thing to do.

It really is no fun beating up on absent players, so I encourage you all to take advantage of the last turn or two.

[Septimius Severus]

Sign ups are now open. Nation selection will follow.

[LumenPlacidum]

Sign me up!

[viccio]

if you can let me try again

[Lingchih]

What the heck. I've played the first two. Go ahead and give me a nation.

[namad]

i'll play

[melnorjr]

I'm a noob. I've done no MP games and would like to play.

[Lavaere]

the last two have been disappointing for me. first game got no fighting. second I loved the fighting but was stopped from expanding really early.

and even though I wont be Skaven, I need to redeem myself somehow in this last game.

[TheDemon]

I'm still considering playing, but for now put me down as a vet alt.

[Lingchih]

I'm still considering playing, but for now put me down as a vet alt.

That means Demon will play. Sign him up.

[Septimius Severus]

the last two have been disappointing for me. first game got no fighting. second I loved the fighting but was stopped from expanding really early.

and even though I wont be Skaven, I need to redeem myself somehow in this last game.
I take it that means your in. If I get the full compliment we'd still need 1 mod nation so it remains a slight possibility.

[namad]

wouldn't it make the most sense to let the 24th nation just be an EA/LA nation???

mod nations are a) not really that important to learn about and b) difficult to gather intelligence and strategies on/for

not really a "teaching" nation eh?

could even make sure it was a nation that hadn't been used before? and... perhaps a nation with no direct parallel in ma? to keep things interesting?

[Lavaere]

yes I'm in
and its not so much that its not a good teaching nation. I just like rats, because I was born in the Year of Rat

[Septimius Severus]

wouldn't it make the most sense to let the 24th nation just be an EA/LA nation???

mod nations are a) not really that important to learn about and b) difficult to gather intelligence and strategies on/for

not really a "teaching" nation eh?

could even make sure it was a nation that hadn't been used before? and... perhaps a nation with no direct parallel in ma? to keep things interesting?

You heard the man, he likes rats!

Seriously, wouldn't that require the all nations mod? Are you hinting at the possibility of an all nations game? I'd prefer to keep it all MA. Eh, regarding your points about teaching I'd say that is debatable. Once you've played with a vanilla nation, you should be able to play with the mod nations, a sacred is a sacred after all. Just my two 1/2 cents.

[Septimius Severus]

My fellow players, let us go and spread the gospel of noobs vs vets to the whole of the dom3 world. Tell your father, your mother, your sisters and brothers, your grandparents, all of your friends, that if they only join one game this summer, it must be Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution.

My noob brethren, send a message in-game to your allies in other games. Tell them the very fate of Noobdom hangs in the balance and that they must join immediately.

Vets, I charge you to go forth amongst your kin, convince them that if they do not join your cause that Vetkind may well be banished from the world forever, or they themselves relegated to slavery. Vets, I further charge you to seek out even those who are your enemies. Turn the other cheek. Bring them into the fold. If worse comes to worst, they'll make excellent traitors and agents for the Noob cause.

[Septimius Severus]

wouldn't it make the most sense to let the 24th nation just be an EA/LA nation???
On the other hand it would open up a lot of nation choice possibilities if we get the full 24. Hmm, what do the rest of you think?

[rdonj]

It wouldn't necessarily have to be an all-nations game, though using that mod would make it simpler. Anyway, if you end up needing an extra nation I suggest giving it to the noobs and ruling out LA ermor.

[llamabeast]

Actually it would have to be an all-eras game because of the way the LlamaServer works (unless someone made a mod nation that just reproduced one of the vanilla nations). Not that playing it as an all-era game is a big overhead.

Skaven are good though.

[namad]

so what? use the all nations mod its like a 15kb download and then just let the admin choose which one and only one nation from the other eras is appropriate to include


viola problems solved. 24nations one era (for the most part)



making something include all the eras doesn't mean you can't just use nothing but one era... in single player i just usually leave that mod on even if i am only testing nations from one era... its just convenient

but i doubt we'll get 24players anyway....

[rdonj]

I didn't quite mean what I said the way you all are reading it, but it doesn't matter, basically I agree with you :P.

[Septimius Severus]

Certainly a possibility if we end up needing an extra nation or two. But I'm also ok with a single well crafted mod nation. No big deal really imo. Hypothetical till we see the recruitment totals anyway.

Here's how I plan to implement nation selection when we are ready. Lavaere, and anyone else feel free to comment if it differs from your ideas.

Say we reach the 18 player threshold (we could do so without the need for any water nations) and decide to begin nation selection.

My idea is to let returning alternates from NvVII (if any) weigh in and grab their nations first. If say there are 3 (2 Noobs and 1 Vet) and they take 3 nations, that leaves us with 17 land nations to choose from.

Both teams then draw up their ordered lists for the remaining nations that must be distributed (in this case 17) in their order of preference. The lists are compared. Noobs get their first choice. Vets then get their first choice (unless it is the same as the Noobs, in which case they get their second) we then go back to the Noobs and continue till all nations are distributed.

One caveat, even though the Vet team may have only say 5 players to pick for, they would still need to produce that ranked list of 17 nations to account for any identical nation choices with the Noobs and to insure that all nations are distributed.

Edit: The nations thus distributed between teams would then need to be assigned to individual team members.

Sounds like it will work. Nice idea guys.

[Septimius Severus]

Hmm, as first Vet to sign up Lingchih, your sorta defacto captain again. If you say TheDemon is in, well I guess I'll just move him into a starting position.

Here's my vet dream team:

Executor
Baalz
Archaeolept
EvilHomer or Gandalf Parker
Jazzepi
Llamabeast
Quantum_Mechani
Lingchih
Ironhawk

[Lingchih]

I don't actually think the Vet team will ever fill up, Sept. I joined because I had been a player in all the games. But I don't think there is much interest in this one.

And, you ignore Micah, who is the best Dom3 player in the world.

[Lingchih]

I think the ultimate dream team, for the Vets, would be:

Micah
QM
Baalz
Zeldor
Evilhomer

I often lose to all those guys. Not to discount Ironhawk, or theDemon. They are good too. Ye gods, I could go on.... Lolomo is great and there are so many others.

Arch and Lllama, and Gandalf, are kind of bit players though. No offense.

[Zeldor]

Huh, I surely wouldn't call myslef top tier player. Micah is top1 for me too. You also missed Jurri there.

Septimius:
I think you want to do it too big and too fast. I can play if one of my games ends. Or if I get a sub in Faerun. But please, please, do not put Gandalf in vet team.

[Calahan]

Without wishing to offend a single player, the first picks for my dream vets team would be, and in no order what-so-ever

Micah
WraithLord
Calmon

Actually been thinking of starting up a thread to help players identify who the vets are, since many are unaware, or just attribute vet status to those who play/post a lot. Idea would be for people to post(vote) 3 players they consider vets, and once a player gets X votes, they get listed as a vet (and if they consider themselves as one). If X is sufficiently high, say 30-50, then that should go some way to ensuring no one gets on the list by a fluke or by popularity.

But that's a bit O/T for this thread. Sorry for the digression Sept, and best of luck filling up the teams.

[Lingchih]

Arch, Llama, Gandalf... I was joking with you. On rereading my earlier post though, that might not have been evident.

[Unoptimized]

Hey, I will happily play as a noob, myself :)

[rdonj]

Personally I would love to see amhazair or xietor in one of these games. They don't seem to be much tauted as vets, but they both seem to be very capable players. Baalz is probably the most well-known to noobs because of all his excellent guides, and has a reputation for being marvelously evil (despite his lack of representation in the HoF). I'm aware qm and micah are considered some of the best players in dominions, but they're more more low-key than some of the other good players, so it's harder to tell as an outside observer. Same goes for most of the other high-level players.

Of course, with QM having played two games in this series a few more noobs got an idea of why he is so well-regarded.

[archaeolept]

lingchih's a nub

[Lingchih]

prove it Arch

[archaeolept]

I don't think there really exists the need. enjoy your game, everybody.

[Septimius Severus]

Sorry Zeldor, forgot to include you and Micah in that dream team list. I am only asking for 6 vets (which is only 1 more than the previous game) at a minimum to start, and 3 of you guys to be alternates (who likely won't be called upon at all). I've got the patience to wait, hopefully my players do too. If you ask me there's just too many games and too few players to go around.

Btw: I want to thank those vets who have participated thus far:

Ironhawk
Evil Homer
Zeldor
QM
Lingchih
Atul
TheDemon

and in so doing have thus helped enrich the gaming experience of noobs. I hope to see the rest of you participate as you are able. And thanks for all you do (guides, mods, advice, etc). Let's make this last game a success for the community.

[Joelz]

Could I perhaps join the Noob team? I have no multiplayer experience, having played only single player so far :)

[Festin]

I'm considering joining the noob team, if it is still possible. Could somebody please explain how are the nations assigned for this game, and which ones are still free?

[TheDemon]

I'm considering joining the noob team, if it is still possible. Could somebody please explain how are the nations assigned for this game, and which ones are still free?

You sign up for your team's forums, then you and your team collaborate to make a ranked list of nations. Once both teams have a list prepared, we alternate assigning the top picks on each team's list to each team, then each team decides amongst themselves who plays what (by whatever method, likely first dibs).

I think the host may allow swapping of nations on your team's list with free nations on a first come first serve basis, but he hasn't stated whether he will or will not yet.

If you want to play a particular nation, convince your team to rank it high on the list, and be prepared to be disappointed if it gets picked by the other team first.

[Septimius Severus]

Unoptimized, I welcome you back. As a returning alternate you and namad (so far) will have first uncontested dibs on nation choices before the teams draw up their lists.

Joelz and Festin, welcome aboard the noob team. TheDemon is correct.

The way we are handling it on the noob side is for each player to simply come up with your top 3 or 4 nation picks in order of preference, from which we will build our ranked team list. Once we know what we are getting any swaps that need to be made within the team or without can be done. So think of what nations you'd like in the meantime. You can post that info on the noob forum when your ready.

[Septimius Severus]

Just to clarify, I won't include water nations unless we have enough players where we will actually need them. And of course we won't need a mod nation or a nation from another era unless we have the full 24.

[Festin]

Sorry, it looks like I won't be able to participate after all - real life issues. Hope I'll find some team game next time when I have more free time.

[Joelz]

Glad to hear that im in :D. I have a few questions, and I hope you can provide me with answers.

1. How does this team game work? Do the team members just not attack each other?

2. Does anybody have any idea when the game is going to start?

3. I will be going to London at late July. I would like to know do the games usually last long enough for this to become a problem.
I will have to check how long I will be staying in London. I'll post it later.

[rdonj]

1. Team members do not attack each other. You can share resources (gold/gems) and information freely. You should be coordinating military plans with the other members of your team so that there are no accidents with armies bumping and if things are going poorly you can ask for help.

2. The game will start when septimius has decided enough players have signed up. It's not quite clear when that will be at this point, the game has been filling up a bit slowly.

3. Most games last several months. Completing the last two noobs vs vets games took about 3 months combined, but they were both pretty short as far as most games go and neither got past turn 35. So if that happens again, the game will probably be between 1-2 months long, but if no clear winner is decided at that point it could take much longer.

[Lingchih]

I did my best to recruit more players on IRC. No takers. Sorry.

[Septimius Severus]

I did my best to recruit more players on IRC. No takers. Sorry.
I'm sure your doing what you can do, keep pluggin. I know how relentless you can be, though I know theres a dearth of players now.

Joelz, most games allow delays or short postponements, and usually a sub/alternate can take over temporarily if players are out longer.

Sorry, to hear that Festin, though you might still consider joining as an alternate.

[Joelz]

Good to hear, Septimius Severus.
I asked my folks about it, and it seems like we'll be in London only for 3 days, so count me in.
Now to just wait for more players, so the selecting of nations can begin :)

[melnorjr]

Any noobs who haven't yet, please come join us in the noob forum here: http://teamnoob.forumotion.net/forum.htm
We should get together as early as we can so we can get our plans going.

[Lingchih]

Hmm. Methinks Noobs vs Vets 3 will never happen. Unless maybe it is scaled down to a small game like the first one.

[Septimius Severus]

Hmm. Methinks Noobs vs Vets 3 will never happen. Unless maybe it is scaled down to a small game like the first one.
I know that is what you wanted in the first place, hey who knows you may get your wish and it may even be smaller, though I would remind you the first game was the same size as the second game.
I'm not worried really. I recommend you try what I suggested via PM first.

[Baalz]

I'll play, sounds like fun. I'll see if I can live up to my evil reputation. :)

[Lavaere]

From my experiece in many different games on the internet. There is no such thing as an evil Baal. Just sick, twisted, genocidal minded Baalz, and there are alot of Baalz out there.
And suicidal play, atleast in my case when I was possessed by the name many years ago.

[Septimius Severus]

Just two more vets needed to reach our minimum vet goal. And a few more noobs of course.

[Lingchih]

With Baalz in, we might get a few others. He has followers.

[atul]

I'm in.

As long as someone else does the forging this time, that is. :p

[Lingchih]

wow, if we go with a small game, this almost looks like a game

[Calahan]

I'll play, sounds like fun....

Good to see the noob team filling up :p

[Vellon]

Hi there, I'm almost a complete noob and I'd love to sign up!

[Skinu]

Im in, its my first game HYIO.

[Septimius Severus]

Welcome Vellon, Skinu. Be sure to join the noob forum (link on the main page of the thread) and post your nation preferences there. We will soon be ready for nation selection.

[Septimius Severus]

I'll play, sounds like fun....

Good to see the noob team filling up :p

You must have meant the the vet team, but it is good to see both teams filling up. 1 more vet and 3 more noobs and we will have reached our minimum recruitment goal of 18.

[Calahan]

I'll play, sounds like fun....

Good to see the noob team filling up :p

You must have meant the the vet team....
hhhhmmmm pretty certain I meant the noob team. Everyone knows Baalz is a noob, and he always gets ganged up on quickly in games because of this ;)

[Septimius Severus]

Stretch and Darloth where are ya?

[TheDemon]

I'm still considering playing, but for now put me down as a vet alt.

That means Demon will play. Sign him up.

I kind of did want to just be an alt, but I'll play if me playing means we meet the minnimum.

[Septimius Severus]

That may be helpful.

Welcome Baalz.

Welcome back TheDemon and Atul.

Where's our friend Ironhawk?

For those on the fence about joining or who have other issues with this sort of game, remember Noobs vs. Vets is not about winning or losing really (though it is great fun), it has been and always will be more of a community-wide collaborative educational experiment. Participation means being part of something greater than yourselves and as such requires the active engagement of everyone in the community, vet and noob alike, in order to be sucessful. Put it off no longer!:up:

[Ironhawk]

I'm watching this one from the sidelines. :martini:

The solid victory in Noobs2 satisfied my honor after the stinging defeat of Noobs1. But in turn it exhausted me what with my constant screaming for noob blood! Now, I'm taking a little break to let my batteries recharge :lightning::lightning::lightning:

[Hadrian_II]

I think i could join the noob team (or the vets if required) :D

[Zeldor]

Is Unoptimized really a noob? I thought he has 5+ games played, huh.


Anyway, I can't join that one. Maybe next edition. That one is too soon and I don't have any spots for more games left [and it's that time of the year - anyone in college knows that].

[namad]

i doubt someone with 900posts is a noob :-p

[Septimius Severus]

I think i could join the noob team (or the vets if required) :D
Welcome Hadrian, you seem closer to a vet then a green noob, so I'll assign you to the vet side pending their approval.

[Septimius Severus]

Is Unoptimized really a noob? I thought he has 5+ games played, huh.
Er, um, he was an alternate in the previous game, probably at the time he joined he met the criteria strictly (otherwise the vets would have spoken up), and as returning alternate he's sorta grandfathered in. Besides, we do a few more noobs at present.

I'm watching this one from the sidelines. :martini:
Ye gods! Whatever will the vet team do without you? I guess they'll just have to go ahead and lose! :D
Anyway, I can't join that one. Maybe next edition. That one is too soon and I don't have any spots for more games left [and it's that time of the year - anyone in college knows that].
How bout both you guys take alternate slots for now. We've got enough vets to start with Hadrian?

[Septimius Severus]

Like the vets did last time, we on the noob team are currently speculating on what nations you vets might take. We think we've got at least a good idea of what a couple of you are likely to try to take. Wouldn't it be something if our predictions turn out to be more accurate than yours were? :shock:

[Unoptimized]

Well, I am noobish I'd say. I do have a couple of games under my belts (no victories though). If others do not deem me nooby enough, I'd switch sides or not be on the side of noobs. Any other opinions? After all, the exact definition is somewhat hazy to me

[namad]

who is the vets forum admin? i've been asking on irc and no one knows?

[atul]

Ling at least used to be.

[namad]

ling was the only one i asked and he said no!

[vfb]

i doubt someone with 900posts is a noob :-p

Yes, you need at least 2,854.

[Lingchih]

I am ostensibly the vet admin forum, at least I have the password. I'm not very good at it though. TheDemon is much better.

I did recently allow two new vets into the forum, Baalz and namad.

[atul]

Should you be able to make a new invisible forum for the new game?

Or am I just left out of the gang?

[TheDemon]

I will take care of the group access.

e: done

[Lingchih]

Is there much of a point to playing this third game? Most of the vets do not want to play. I would leave it tied at 1 to 1.

[Septimius Severus]

Ling, you sound like someone who now does not want to play. :(

Looks to me like you've got a good 6 man team all ready to go. Just need 3 more noobs and we can proceed.

Some reasons we need this final game imo include:

1. It is important to see how the game plays out on a proper map suited to team play and with more balanced settings.

2. I want to give as many players as possible a chance to take part in the experience. This is especially true for noobs. We must try to reach as many noobs as possible.

3. Some noobs (like myself) need, want, a few more lessons. There is so much more that can be learned.

4. Ties leave to many questions unanswered. Will the Noobs regain their freedom? What of Mysterio's legacy? Who will prevail 2 out of 3 times?

[Septimius Severus]

Most importantly though. I am having a blast! And I don't want the fun to end just yet. :D

[Septimius Severus]

A few alternates would be nice, though we can always recruit for them.

[Pelthin]

I am a noob and am willing to play, or be an alt if you need that.

Thanks.

[TwoBits]

Are you still looking for Noob-meat here? I just dipped my toe into the water with MistsofTime, but that's looking to be like a big wild melee, where I'm definitely on my own (certain to be fun though!).

But I've got time for another game, and wouldn't mind one where I can learn (or at least get schooled in) a few nasty tricks by some true vets ;) This whole team format would definitely be new though, so I'd need some help to walk me through it (coordination and what-not).

Caveat: I'm not sure if I'm a good fit for this though. I've had the game for a good while now, and have fooled around plenty with SP, and have played a handful of MP games with friends (about 5-6). I guess I consider myself a noob in the sense of I haven't played any "at large" games, except for the just-started, aforementioned, Mists. But I may not be as "noob" as you're looking for?

I guess I'm like the soldier who's had lots of training, but hasn't seen much actual combat :)

[atul]

Considering some of the guys who have been on noob side, you'll probably fit in. Not much rush to fill the last places anyway.

[DrPraetorious]

I'll play, sure. Put me down as a noob alternate :)

[Ironhawk]

DrP... surely you jest at being a noob.

[TheDemon]

Hey Sept. We were wondering if we should avoid picking water nations due to the symetrical mapchoice likely not supporting them? Also we were wondering how the first picks for the returning alts is going to happen, the noobs have Unoptimized and the vets have Namad.

[Stretch]

I'm in 2 games currently and due to work and other RL concerns I'm not sure I could be a good teammate in this one.

[Septimius Severus]

Welcome Pelthin and TwoBits. Don't forget to join the noob forum (link on opening post) and post your nation preferences there.

Dr. P, you are scaring the vets! Are you joining as a Vet or a Vet Alternate?

TheDemon, we are going for at least an 18 player start, so yes no water nations needed. Once we begin the nation selection phase namad and Unoptimized get whatever nations they want. We then draw up the ranked team lists, minus whatever they picked.

1 more noob needed.

Stretch, how bout taking a noob alternate slot then?

[namad]

how are we deciding who gets ashdod? coin flip? I get it because I asked first? or abolish the returning alternates benefit and just make every nation part of the list process? (after which teams can give some form of preference to returning alternates if they wish or do not wish)

also clearly in MA first pick is ashdod so if your going to give me some sort of preferential treatment i'll take ashdod

[rdonj]

Remember noobs, this time around if you don't sign up for the forum you can't play. I'll send out pms to those who are not signed up for the forum when there are sufficient players to start the game as a reminder, but you should sign up sooner rather than later.

[TwoBits]

Thanks for having me on board!

OK, I've joined the Noob Forum, but I don't see much current information there, just archives for rounds 1 and 2, and a guest forum with zero posts. Am I missing something, or will there be no action there until the game is ready to go?

[rdonj]

When you first sign up, you are immediately enabled as a user. In order to help prevent spying attempts (which, btw, have not happened nor do I expect them to) the main forum is hidden and can only be seen by those who are members of a user group. Either me or septimius can bring people in, and I've set you as a member now. So you should be able to see everything now.

[Lavaere]

rdonj needs to give you access to the current discussions. until then you can only read through the last two games archives

[Gandalf Parker]

Huh, I surely wouldn't call myslef top tier player. Micah is top1 for me too. You also missed Jurri there.

Septimius:
I think you want to do it too big and too fast. I can play if one of my games ends. Or if I get a sub in Faerun. But please, please, do not put Gandalf in vet team.

I know Im late seeing this but I would have to agree. A veteran I might be (Dominions 1,2,3 and beta test team) but I would not fit well in a "vet team" game like this. I would highly recommend Sombre as an alternative. He would much better fit your purpose.

Gandalf Parker
--
The Patron Saint of the Non-Standard. The Experimenter of Extremes. The Lord of Chances. The Prophet of the All-or-Nothing Tactics. The Unceasing Unconvincing Upholder of the Underdog

[Stretch]

Yeah I will happily be an alternate. Team games mean that even if a player loses tons of ground and sees the end coming, they can still help their team (and thus can still "win"). If someone is getting their rear end handed to them, fails the morale check, and routs from the game, I will step in and fight until the bitter, bitter end. I just don't have all the time to do the prep and nation tests that are needed in a team game like this.

(Hint to new players: Test your initial expansion strategy in single player first. Make sure you can get 20 provinces to your name by turn 10 or try again.)

[TheDemon]

20 isn't easy, but 15 is definitely an acceptable new player benchmark.

[Skinu]

Hello Rdonj, can you enable me for the noob forums ? thanks

[Septimius Severus]

how are we deciding who gets ashdod? coin flip? I get it because I asked first? or abolish the returning alternates benefit and just make every nation part of the list process? (after which teams can give some form of preference to returning alternates if they wish or do not wish)

also clearly in MA first pick is ashdod so if your going to give me some sort of preferential treatment i'll take ashdod
You guys (returning alternates) get uncontested first pick. I was gonna give the vet alternate the first choice but decided against it. First come first serve. Who ever posts first when we begin the nation selection phase gets it. Plain and simple.

Gandalf, sorry to hear that.

Stretch, your in as a noob alternate.

[DrPraetorious]

I can be a Vet or Vet alternate, whichever is needed.

Although, as I never played dominions 1 and didn't start playing dominions 2 until a year or so before dom 3 came out, I hardly think I really count as a veteran.

[Lingchih]

Sorry, been out of touch since my electricity has been out for three days now due to strong thunderstorms. I am, as always, willing to take any nation. And I will play again, though I think the game is a bit superfluous.

[atul]

Young people these days count someone who got into playing Dominions like 2007 as a veteran. Madness, but what can you do.

In all seriousness, some people learn really fast, other take years to get a clue. Dunno whether that word should be ever used for qualifying purposes. Unless doing it like in fencing, where veteran series includes everyone of age over 20 or so.

Vet forum needs also people in.

[rdonj]

Skinu, you're already in. Make sure if you can see Team Noob Strategic Command.

[Baalz]

I will play a nation picked by the Newbs - what do you guys want a demonstration of? Except MA Oceana, I hate MA Oceana. T'ien Ch'i might be good, I was considering writing a guide for them.

[rdonj]

Hmm, well not all of the noobs have given nation picks yet so it would be hard to say at this point. As far as nations you've written guides for go, I think Bandar Log would be fun.

T'ien Ch'i could be good also, and they don't seem too popular with the noobs at the moment.

[Raiel]

Well, I definitely qualify as a MP noob and I would be happy to give this a shot as my first MP (and CBM) experience.

I'd prefer to play Eriu, Shin or Bandar, but I can be flexible.

[Septimius Severus]

Vets, TheDemon, I recommend you switch in Dr. P and allow TheDemon or someone else to go to vet alternate. I'm adding him to the vet team.

Baalz, your team will likely decide what you get, of course you can take anything not awarded to the noob team after the nation selection process begins.

Raiel, welcome aboard the noob team. Please go the forum link on the first page of this thread, register on the forum and post your nation preferences there.

For the greener noobs remember to familiarize yourself with Llama's instructions for playing and joining games on Llamaserver here:

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=35160

Remember not to password protect your pretender.

Thanks.

[Septimius Severus]

We have enough players to begin at the 12 vs 6 level.

Anyone else wishing to join will be placed in alternate slots, so don't let that stop you from joining.

Noob's and Vets sign up for your respective forums.

Namad and Unoptimized, make your nation selection first.

The teams will then draw up their ranked preference lists. Remember to exclude whatever 2 nations Namad and Unoptimized have chosen and remember we are not using water nations (23 - 3), so after the alternates pick (if my math is correct) we a list a 18 nations each from each team ordered by preference.

It is high time we get started. Nation selection has begun.

[Stretch]

I am in favor of Baalz taking any nation that produces a new guide for the Strategy forum. They're very useful and well-written.

[atul]

I say if Baalz wants to handicap himself by letting noobs collectively choose him a nation, let him.

And namad already asked for Ashdod.

[ano]

Hello, everybody.
Probably it is too late but I'd like to play here but not as a sub. If there's accidentally a room in the vet team, of course.
I like team games and though I never won any, I never lost a regular MP yet, OTOH.

p.s. If there's no place, please don't put me into alternates list. Games of such kind need deep thinking and planning if you want to be successful and subbing is always a pain.

[atul]

I believe there are some more and some less enthusiastic players in the vet roster currently, so your wish may come true ano. But can't promise.

Right now what I'd like to have is everyone applicable joining the vet forum (link in the first post) and posting their thoughts on nations and the game order there. I and TheDemon have posted recently, Namad has read stuff, Baalz apparently registered and never looked back since and don't see anything about the rest of the guys. (E: ok, Hadrian's on too but someone needs to add him into the correct group...)

Just would need to see who are around, and, well, organize.

[Pelthin]

I joined the Noob Forum, but did not see anyplace to post a nation list. Are we doing that here in this forum and I missed it?

I am actually open to whatever nation I get, I like them all, and am about as umm..Good with them all. :confused:

[rdonj]

The forum you'll be using on the noob site is hidden from people who just register, I've set you to be able to see it now though.

[Pelthin]

Thanks. I posted over there. Thanks for the quick response to my questions.

[Hadrian_II]

i signed up for the vet forum, but i do only see the archives from the oldgame.

[namad]

i'll take ashdod

[Stretch]

I had cautioned the noob team at the end of NvV2 "Don't let a vet get Ashdod or you guys are screwed." Don't let me down, namad!

[atul]

i signed up for the vet forum, but i do only see the archives from the oldgame.

You should be seeing the new forum now, as you've been put into the group for 3rd game.

[Septimius Severus]

Unoptimized where were ya? :doh: Oh well, it's not a killing blow I don't think. Go ahead and pick please.

Namad you are officially awarded Ashdod.:envy:

Vets, you got 7 people on yer team, I need one of ya to go to alternate. Either that or we wait for more noobs. Hehe. TheDemon had asked earlier about it, that is why I suggested him, but you guys decide. Thanks.

[Septimius Severus]

I had cautioned the noob team at the end of NvV2 "Don't let a vet get Ashdod or you guys are screwed." Don't let me down, namad!
Stretch, your not cheering the vet team on are ya?:D

[Septimius Severus]

While we are waiting for the nations selection process to finish let us discuss map selection. Recommendations and feedback are welcome.

Here are the candidates:

1. AOM Ogre - Nice looking map, the water in the middle would make for an interesting attack route since we are land bound and may buy both teams more time to prepare. Currently though, the prov/player ratio = 25, which may be too high. Placement would obviously be teams at either ends.
http://dom3maps.wikidot.com/system:aomogre

2. WOG Team Arena 1.3 - Enlarged version of World of Geometry. Looks like a large flower to me. Good for a land battle it looks like. Thanks Zeldor. I can easily place the vets at the center around the core and the noobs at the tips of the petals. Not much mystery. Prov/player ratio = 23 currently.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showpost.php?p=652800

3. Planet Rorschach - Cleveland's interesting map. Seems to me more suited for a land battle with a central landmass and water on the fringes (kissed by Oceanus as it were). Also with vets in the center and noobs around the outside. Prov/player ratio = 20.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showpost.php?p=677652

4. World of Geometry - Nice looking map, originally designed as a king of the hill type setup. Map is split in half by water with 10 land pocket starts. I could squeeze the 12 noobs into the 10 pockets I suppose and place the vets around the central core or one team on either side. Prov/player ratio = 18.
http://dom3maps.wikidot.com/system:worldofgeometry

5. World of Symetry - I think it is the ugliest of our choices so far but it will work. A bit smaller than WOG. Placement options would be similar to WOG. Prov/player ratio = 14.
http://dom3maps.wikidot.com/system:worldofsymetry

[namad]

i think thedemon might be team captain :-p so he probably won't go alternate.... at least thedemon is the only one i've talked to at all about nation picks so far i guess once everyone has private subforum access we'll be able to determine better

[namad]

the veteran team will be required to make a list of 10nations (not including the preselected nations) the noob team should make a list of 16 (not including the preselected nations)


proof:

in the case that the lists are exact duplicates of each other we will have the case where the longest length is required this is what that distribution process would look like:
preselect
preselect
N1
V1
N2
V2
N3
V3
N4
V4
N5
V5
N6
N7
N8
N9
N10
N11

this list has total length of 16 and the portion for which the veterans are concerned has length 10 this results in 6veteran and 12noob nations being selected


if anyone can point out to me how I am wrong.. we can make longer lists otherwise I think the vets intend to hand in a list of this length

[melnorjr]

I have to object to awarding the vets ashdod as the first pick of the game on the grounds that in the opening post of this thread the noobs were promised first nation pick. Further, since you are granting early picks to returning alternates, shouldn't the noob returning alternate get the first pick over the vet returning alternate?

[Hadrian_II]

if there are too much players in the vet secion, i would go alternate

[namad]

melnorjr:

your grounds for dismal are incorrect as it does not state anything about the method or manner in which the alternates would receive their bonus only that they would receive one. the first time septimus commented on this was to say what he said, as far as i know.

anyways... I do not think this is an especially stern point of negotiation that the vet team cares about....

it is however in poor taste to complain only after I have selected my nation instead of before I claimed it (there was a day or two in there between when septimus suggested his policy and i was awarded the nation during which no one said a word)... as in the past day I've already begun trying to psyche myself up to play ashdod ( there's a lot of pressure to be the worst vet and have the first vet pick ) not to mention qm just nerfed a few of my favorite spells for being too badass!



everyone:

I encourage everyone to post at least once on their private forums if only to say something like "this game sounds like it will be fun but I don't really have anything new to add in terms of nation selection opinion" just to reassure your team that you do intend to play... I further encourage everyone to post their nation selection opinions otherwise we might get stuck using atul's opinions for all of us!

[atul]

otherwise we might get stuck using atul's opinions for all of us!

You make it sound like it would be a bad thing. :p

But yeah, please post something in the forums even if it's "dunno". I know everyone can play any nation the team wants them to, but some input would be nice. It isn't a dictatorship (I hope).

[melnorjr]

melnorjr:

your grounds for dismal are incorrect as it does not state anything about the method or manner in which the alternates would receive their bonus only that they would receive one. the first time septimus commented on this was to say what he said, as far as i know.
It doesn't say what manner of bonus the alternates would recieve no. However, it simply rubs me wrong to be promised something, (noobs have first pick) then have that turned around and given to somebody else, because it is later decided that they will get first pick. Further, my point about the noob alternate still stands. if noobs were to get first pick, then it is decided that alternates would get first pick, it would seem most fair to give the first pick to the noob alternate.



it is however in poor taste to complain only after I have selected my nation instead of before I claimed it (there was a day or two in there between when septimus suggested his policy and i was awarded the nation during which no one said a word)...
I apologize for this. I was unaware that you were given first pick days ago. However, I haven't been following this thread that closely(I'm sometimes fairly busy, and I don't get e-mails alerts from this forum) and it was just now mentioned to me that a vet had picked a nation already, and had gotten the first pick.
as a request, please keep opinions about my taste, poor or otherwise, to yourself.


as in the past day I've already begun trying to psyche myself up to play ashdod ( there's a lot of pressure to be the worst vet and have the first vet pick ) not to mention qm just nerfed a few of my favorite spells for being too badass!


For the record, I want to state that I object to being promised something, coming to expect it, and having it taken away, whether it is first pick, or anything else. It is obviously unfair.

However, to take Ashdod away from you at this point would be effectively the same thing, so I will not push the issue.

[namad]

i was promised a good pick before the last game even ended... let alone before anyone even suggested using the ranked list system...
so your claim of "first"hood isn't exactly accurate either (not to mention it seems like unoptimized has simply quit invalidating the argument even further)
additionally i believe i myself have suggested before in some medium that i did not think anyone should get any preferential treatment despite myself being included in getting it (although maybe that was on irc and not matter of public record or maybe it was in the previous games forum?)...

anyways... I do not choose to reserve my opinion on your taste as it simply is poor. You rationalize that something you were promised (even assuming you had been promised it) should invalidate something I was promised, given, and received.

if septimus agrees with you I do not care but ... your claims that you were entitled to something so pointless and irrelevant and never actually offered to you is just infuriating ... this post is pretty inflammatory so if you are a forum-mod feel free to delete it... by tomorrow i'll have cooled down but it will probably be too late to use the edit function then? (or will it?)


honestly at this point my only concern is that we actually have 18players because i'm worried we do not and anything any admin can do to make sure we end up with 18players is whatever I think they should do (and i know that none of the vets will choose to play or not play in regards to this topic including myself)

[chrispedersen]

If you can't find enough players to make the game, I'll pick up a position, although you would probably put me as an alternate in any case.

[melnorjr]

i was promised a good pick before the last game even ended... let alone before anyone even suggested using the ranked list system...
so your claim of "first"hood isn't exactly accurate either (not to mention it seems like unoptimized has simply quit invalidating the argument even further)
additionally i believe i myself have suggested before in some medium that i did not think anyone should get any preferential treatment despite myself being included in getting it (although maybe that was on irc and not matter of public record or maybe it was in the previous games forum?)...
May I ask that you look at my post count? How long do you suppose I've been a member of this forum, to have knowledge of things that happened I don't even know how long ago?

anyways... I do not choose to reserve my opinion on your taste as it simply is poor. You rationalize that something you were promised (even assuming you had been promised it) should invalidate something I was promised, given, and received. Finish reading my last post. I said, having a better understanding of the situation after my first post, that it would be just as unfair to take Ashdod away from you now, so your latest allegation is obviously wrong. You accuse me of poor taste on the assumption that I knew things that I did not know.


if septimus agrees with you I do not care but ... your claims that you were entitled to something so pointless and irrelevant and never actually offered to you is just infuriating
I was never offered first pick, but the noob team was promised it. this is a matter of public record, as it is in the opening post of the first page of this thread. subsequent to that, this privilege was taken from the noobs and given to you. Being one of the noobs, this is unfair to me. but as I said, I do not wish for Ashdod to be taken away from you, as it would be just as unfair to do that.

Now would you please stop insulting me for not knowing things that I have no reason to know, and leave the topic alone? As far as I am concerned, it is well over and done with, and dredging it up further for no purpose other than to insult me actually would be poor taste.

[Hoplosternum]

I love team games :) Unfortunately I am not really a noob or a vet otherwise I would love to play :(

But I am fairly rubbish at mp. Especially at MA :p So maybe I could be considered as a noob or an alternate for them?

[Lingchih]

So, let's have a game.

[Septimius Severus]

Melnorj and namad there is no need for this bickering. We've other things to think about now.

Melnorj, you are right that it is stated that the noobs were to have first choice in the ordered list process, but it is also stated and has always been the case that returning alternates would recieve priority in nation selection before everyone else. It is a NvV tradition.

Our returning alternates from both teams were given an equal chance to respond with their nation choices, namad responded first when the process was officially begun and thus was awarded it. Unoptimized has not responded to my PM's as of yet, so he may have flaked out altogether. I hope not, but in any event lets move forward now. I don't like it anymore than you melnorj, but I gave my word. Lets us move forward.

[Septimius Severus]

Vets, get it together with your team, I need you guys to decide on your 6 player starting team ASAP. I would think you'd want Dr. P, Baalz, Lingchih, and/or whoever is most experienced.

Everyone, I want your feedback on the map candidates, no response and I'll assume that what I choose will be approriate. Here's the map post again:

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showpost.php?p=695857&postcount=187

With regard to nation selection, namad, your example is correct in theory, though it is possible, though unlikely, that all of your 10 choices could be identical to the noob's top picks in the exact same order, in which case you'd want a few more just to be on the safe side. Thus I would submit a list of all available nations (minus the 3 water nations, Ashdod, and whatever is picked by Unoptimized (if something is picked) just to be on the safe side. If you want to submit a smaller list that is fine but just be aware there is a chance you may need more.

Hoplosternum, your in as a noob alternate for now, chrispederson is in as a vet alternate for now.

[Septimius Severus]

Edit my above post. Going over the possibilities, it does look like your correct namad. Your team's 10 choices should be sufficent even if the upper portions of both lists are duplicates.

[melnorjr]

Melnorj and namad there is no need for this bickering. We've other things to think about now.

Melnorj, you are right that it is stated that the noobs were to have first choice in the ordered list process, but it is also stated and has always been the case that returning alternates would recieve priority in nation selection before everyone else. It is a NvV tradition.

Our returning alternates from both teams were given an equal chance to respond with their nation choices, namad responded first when the process was officially begun and thus was awarded it. Unoptimized has not responded to my PM's as of yet, so he may have flaked out altogether. I hope not, but in any event lets move forward now. I don't like it anymore than you melnorj, but I gave my word. Lets us move forward.

I am in agreement and have already stated that this is what I want more than once. so please, continue with the game preparations, I have no opposition to this.

[namad]

I'm sorry I was being so petty I had a long weekend and I knew that today I'd want to delete my post... In fact I just tried to edit it to delete it but you can only edit posts 1hour after you make them

[namad]

if we use zeldor's map will everything be on? all the crazy indies? this might be bad for noobs.... additionally i do not see how this map could ever support any number of players other than 12or24 and 18 is not either of those numbers?

honestly games this big are a bit wonky I'm not sure there is really any ideal map? But I encourage players to post some opinions at least

[rdonj]

If any map is used that has specials on it I think it would be best to remove them. There's no sense in making this game unduly complicated.

[rdonj]

Also, if you don't hear from unoptomized today I suggest bringing in an alternate (other games are having issues contacting him as well). Since I think stretch was disinclined to play a whole game, I guess that brings hoplosternum in. I'll send him a pm.

[TwoBits]

Regarding the maps, would all the various tunnels and caves and such be there? Number two looks interesting, but I'm not sure how all those cave provinces might affect things.

Do we want maps with lots of water (if so, please give me Shinuyama and place me on the coast! ;) )?

[Hoplosternum]

OK I have registered :) Can't see anything but the archives so far....

[Unoptimized]

I will play Ashdod, and will herald the end of this dark vet dominated age! :)

[rdonj]

Unoptimized - Unfortuantely you will have to pick a different nation, as Namad has already taken Ashdod. I suggest you stop by the noob forum and look at recent discussion into nation selection before announcing your pick.

[tgbob]

I'm loling at Namad getting Ashdod. You noobs best pick a powerhouse nation! Like Man, Man has SUCH good ranged units.

(Don't actually pick Man.)

[TwoBits]

I'm loling at Namad getting Ashdod. You noobs best pick a powerhouse nation! Like Man, Man has SUCH good ranged units.

(Don't actually pick Man.)

Ah, the bigger they are, the harder they, er, well, crush your tiny skull... :(

Well, if the mighty Vets need the crutch of Ashdod to feel they have a chance (we noobs are also willing to throw in a big SUV, or maybe a large caliber hand gun, if they're still feeling the need to compensate for something), then I guess it would be wrong to not let them have it :D

Yep, let the smack talk officially begin! :P

[rdonj]

Yeah, the vets getting ashdod is a bit excessive. With team support like this, there's just not a whole lot ashdod can't do... it's going to be interesting to see if the noobs can handle them. I know in the last game hinnom pretty much held an entire front singlehandedly.

[namad]

if ashdod is really this unfair we could always just ban ashdod from the game entirely? although if hinnom wasn't banned it seems a bit odd to ban ashdod?

[ano]

Ashdod isn't that terrific as many use to think. It is a widespread opinion that was caused by someone winning several games with them with ease. But game result usually depends on player much more than on nation and there're a lot of very strong nations in middle age besides Ashdod.
Yes, Ashdod is very good but not uber. I clearly remember one very talkative and well-known person doing absolutely nothing with them and being smashed by Ulm who was fighting at several fronts in a couple of turns. So I have to once again say that result depends on player to much greater degree.

[rdonj]

Well, ashdod is banned from a lot of mp games. But having them in this game is not necessarily a bad idea. After all it gives the noobs some practice in attempting to deal with them in an environment where it's difficult to be crushed outright. It just means that figuring out how to fight ashdod will occupy much of the noobs strategic thinking this game. Much like fear of niefelheim in the last game drew much of the noob team's attention. Or the gorgon and VQ in the first one.

[rdonj]

Ashdod isn't that terrific as many use to think. It is a widespread opinion that was caused by someone winning several games with them with ease. But game result usually depends on player much more than on nation and there're a lot of very strong nations in middle age besides Ashdod.
Yes, Ashdod is very good but not uber. I clearly remember one very talkative and well-known person doing absolutely nothing with them and being smashed by Ulm who was fighting at several fronts in a couple of turns. So I have to once again say that result depends on player to much greater degree.

I think in a team game like this, what few weaknesses ashdod has can be easily patched up by its teammates. Which creates the situation where they really are unmentionably uber.

What game are you talking about btw? PM me the name, I'd like to read the game thread and see if it's informative at all. Ashdod actually only has one HoV win recorded right now, I was under the impression people decided they were so op when they started thinking about the differences between ma and ea, and realized ashdod has a lot less competition than hinnom does.

[ano]

You're right, perhaps, in a team game it is much stronger than in usual just because there're ways to cover its weaknesses.

Also, I'd like to know if ratio 12-6 is final and thus there's no sense to keep following the thread. If Hadrian wants to be an alternate then the game lacks one noob team member to have 14-7 (Hopolsternum wants to play, as far as I understand). I just don't like jumping into the train that already started moving so it is best decided now.

[Pelthin]

I'm loling at Namad getting Ashdod. You noobs best pick a powerhouse nation! Like Man, Man has SUCH good ranged units.

(Don't actually pick Man.)

Ah, the bigger they are, the harder they, er, well, crush your tiny skull... :(

Well, if the mighty Vets need the crutch of Ashdod to feel they have a chance (we noobs are also willing to throw in a big SUV, or maybe a large caliber hand gun, if they're still feeling the need to compensate for something), then I guess it would be wrong to not let them have it :D

Yep, let the smack talk officially begin! :P

Yeah. What Two-bits Said... Umm.. Is that good smack talk, I am a noob. :)

[rdonj]

I think septimius is inclined to play with as many players as can be convinced to play before the game starts. If there's enough for 14-7 right now, it's probably safe to assume that the game will start with 14 noobs and 7 vets.

[Septimius Severus]

You're right, perhaps, in a team game it is much stronger than in usual just because there're ways to cover its weaknesses.

Also, I'd like to know if ratio 12-6 is final and thus there's no sense to keep following the thread. If Hadrian wants to be an alternate then the game lacks one noob team member to have 14-7 (Hopolsternum wants to play, as far as I understand). I just don't like jumping into the train that already started moving so it is best decided now.

Yes, I did want as many as possible but we are having issues bringing in the noobs, despite everything we've done and there's at least 1 noob we may need to drop. There seems to be a noob shortage of late, especially of the fresh green variety. We could wait it out and so who else joins, maybe even reach maximum but as the vets don't like large teams to begin with I think it best to see if we can start with just 12-6.

So vets it may be best if we drop ano (sorry ano) for now and Hadrian II will go to alternate. Do you want chrispederson in the starting lineup? if so, someone else must go alternate.

[Septimius Severus]

Regarding the maps, would all the various tunnels and caves and such be there? Number two looks interesting, but I'm not sure how all those cave provinces might affect things.

Do we want maps with lots of water (if so, please give me Shinuyama and place me on the coast! ;) )?

Probably, as I'm not inclined to do a hell of a lot of work on them. I can delete the specials if that's what people want.

TwoBits, likes number 2. Very good, keep those opionions coming in on the map. Tell me which one ya like. I'm inclined toward Planet Rorshach myself.

[ano]

Ok :)
I'd say it would be best if chris joined the noob team though.

[Septimius Severus]

Ok :)
I'd say it would be best if chris joined the noob team though.You think chris is not vet material?

[ano]

I do. Perhaps, not a noob for this game as well but if he played for your team, personally I wouldn't mind.

[Unoptimized]

Ah, sorry about my absence, I've been looking for appartments in Cali. Grad school and such :). I can happily play another nation, and I will say hi on the noob boards soon.

[Septimius Severus]

I do. Perhaps, not a noob for this game as well but if he played for your team, personally I wouldn't mind.That might be stretching things.

If I don't here from Vellon soon, we shall be minus a noob. And Hoplosternum will be in.

[Lingchih]

Sorry, been a bit out of touch with this game again. I just posted in the Vet forum, giving command over to theDemon. I will play whatever nation I am assigned. Heh, I'm not even sure who all the vet players are. But, I'm sure we will get it together before the game starts.

[TheDemon]

pending hearing back from drp, I think the vet team membership that's on the first post of this thread is what we're going with

[TwoBits]

Perhaps it doesn't have to be an exact 2-1 ratio of noobs to vets if more vets want to play. But perhaps if the vets have a higher ratio than that, then noobs should get to pick all their races first (like Ashdod) :D

Just a thought.

Map two looked OK (not sure about the caves and tunnels though). I think 3 would be OK too, or was it 4? (the one with the surrounding ocean), as long as the Noob team gets Shinuyama :)

[Lingchih]

World of symmetry map. I call it as a 3 game veteran.

The game is named after me. The whole story of the game is based on my pretenders. I name the map.

Mysterio

[atul]

In my opinion:


1. AOM Ogre - Currently though, the prov/player ratio = 25, which may be too high. Placement would obviously be teams at either ends.
http://dom3maps.wikidot.com/system:aomogre

2. WOG Team Arena 1.3 - Enlarged version of World of Geometry. I can easily place the vets at the center around the core and the noobs at the tips of the petals. Not much mystery. Prov/player ratio = 23 currently.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showpost.php?p=652800

3. Planet Rorschach - Cleveland's interesting map. Also with vets in the center and noobs around the outside. Prov/player ratio = 20.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showpost.php?p=677652

4. World of Geometry -

5. World of Symetry -

1. is too big.
2. is too big AND would give vets a big hand up as the center has all the gold and goodies, while indy garrisons keep noobs bottled up. Even without prescripted sites and indies the center has all the farmlands.
3. is a bit too big, but otherwise, why not.
4., 5. why not.

And Sept, remember: If you really intend to put the vets in the center of the map, remember that area of the circle is relative to the square of the radius. Which means, you need to give people crammed in the middle some breathing room or things are really cramped. Seriously cramped.

[Septimius Severus]

Keep those map recommendations coming. Any other symmetrical maps that I may be missing let me know.

[LumenPlacidum]

I played a bit on World of Geometry, and the level 4 independents would be overwritten by the special garrisons all over that map, which are rather challenging for a typical expansion army sometimes.

[namad]

I feel that we should select the map before finally submitting the nation preference list because well... the map selection might somehow effect someones opinion about the role of a particular nation

additionally what is the hold up? If septimus can go ahead and select a map today the vets can submit their list of preferred nations by tomorrow and then maybe we can get this game started before next monday? thoughts?

[Pelthin]

Sounds good to me. :)

[rdonj]

The noobs are finalizing their list now. The map choice should get more attention than it has. What have there been, 3 or 4 out of 18 votes? Anyway, the noob nation list should hopefully be ready by tomorrow.

[TheDemon]

There's the modified versions of World of Geometry that were used for Prepo. The team arena version I believe. It had 12 branches instead of 10.

[Lavaere]

Well I don't care that much about which map we play. Though if I remember correctly there is one part were sailing nations reach the opposite side of the land in Rorschach. Unless I'm thinking of another map or thats been changed.

So we should have what, a friday/saturday start

[Unoptimized]

Hey guys! Just dropping a line to let you know I'm not dead. I'm just staying at a friend's place while I look for housing, and so its been difficult to get regular internet access/time. Anyway, I'm going to try to look at the noob forum today or tomorrow. I'll be back home on thursday, and then this can be rocked :).

[Septimius Severus]

Ok, so we are waiting for Unoptimized to post his official choice so both teams can scratch it off their team list. We know what he will probably take so this will happen very shortly.

Then I need the vet team to PM me their ranked team list. I'll post both lists and the results for all too see, so that you all can see I'm not being partial and that it was done correctly. It should be fairly straightforward though, but if someone feels as though they'd prefer an independent party do the team assignments, let me know.

If you'd like to wait until map selection is finalized that is fine, just remember if you say nothing, you have no say! I will assume you don't care eitherway. Here's the link again with the top candidates so far:

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showpost.php?p=695857&postcount=187

I do want to move this along as speedily as possible though, so we can get going.

While I'm inclined to toward planet Roarscach #4 (terrible speller) because it has a large cental landmass and both teams can be placed so that they can have a common front, I also like AOM Ogre. True AOM Ogre is rather large, however the actual land prov/player ratio is a bit less, about 23. That water in the middle does introduce some interesting strategic attack options, and would force most battles to take place in the sea. So think about it.

Hopefully, we can begin the pretender creation/placement phase by this weekend.

Thanks.

[Septimius Severus]

oops, edit my above post, that is Planet Rorscach #3, not #4 on my list. Yeah there is a version with sailing starts, but I'll be placing nations manually so doesn't really matter I don't think. I'm going to get in touch with Cleveland if I can for a recommendation.

Oh yeah, and Hoplosternum is in for Vellon (no responses/no posts on our forum). I haven't heard from Skinu in awhile either. So some more noobs/alternates would be nice. I like to be prepared. :)

There's the modified versions of World of Geometry that were used for Prepo. The team arena version I believe. It had 12 branches instead of 10.

Yep, that one is on my list of candidates already.

[namad]

i think that in theory the map selection definitely effects the effectiveness of some individual nations... now people might be too lazy to change their preferences in light of this data but it seems to only be technically correct that the map be declared before the preferences of nations submitted?


certainly map selection is not dependent on untopimized's pick... so perhaps we can have the map selected by tonight/tomorrow so that when unoptimized is home and tells you his nation that will allow us all to submit our preferred list of nations?

if you currently have a list of preferred nations that is one nation longer than it needs to be all you will have to do when untopimized picks his nation is to remove it from your list that had an extra nation on it.... that step will require no extra deliberation

[melnorjr]

I vote 3. Planet Rorschach for the map

[Hoplosternum]

Personally I don't like any of the maps for this game :p

I think you want a map which allows all 18 (?) players to fight each other. No one will learn much or have a great time lurking around at the back. Everyone, if possible, needs a front line.

The maps chosen while nice for ordinary mp or sp play don't fit this. They have too much sea which will stop people getting at the other side (Ogre is especially bad for this) or have constricted fronts (Symetry & the Geometry ones especially). Cleveland's Map (Map 3) is best but I think is inferior to simply making a random map with our set up.

If we make a random with very little sea (say 5% or less) for say 360 provinces at 1600*1600 pixels (so square) you should get a decent set up. These are easy to create.

We could then set up the 6 vets in a line east to west in the middle. With a line of 6 noobs close to the North edge (but not right on it) and 6 more in the same position in the south. You would get a map looking something like this:

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXxXXXXXXX
X 6 Noobs here XXXXXX
X XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
X 6 Vets here XXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
X 6 South Noobs XXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

With each X being roughly a column of provinces (19*19 = 361). PS it's really square :)


This would give the noobs only a small amount of safe space behind their capitals so they have to expand towards danger (the Vets). The Vets have no safe space but lots of expansion room. This way the edge advantage is lessened as there is little safe hinterland that only the edge powers have. Plus the powers don't meet straight away allowing for expansion.

This enables everyone to get to at least some enemies by walking. It also gives plenty of strategy options. The Vets can perhaps shield the south 6 with two while sending four north. Or spread equally each way so they can all attack or defend in either direction. While no noob is stuck at the back the noobs could shield weaker powers somewhat. And at roughly 19 provinces wide all sets of six work out nicely with the capital and all surrounding provinces being available - everyone gets that - then expands north or south (or both) but not east or west initially. You could zig zag the Capitals if needed but I am not sure this is desirable.

Even though 20 per player is a little large these games are unlikley to drag on very long on past experience and so will end before late game micromanagement hell decends :p

Obviously it's best if we can get a neutral to build the map and place the capitals. But we can even use the set up without. I (or someone) makes the map and places the 18 capital locations. Then sends the map to the opposition to check that the Capital placements are reasonable and what was decided. Then, after nation selection, the noobs announce the (say) northern 6 noob powers locations east to west. Then the Vets put down their six in whatever order they like (knowing the 6 northern locations). Then the noobs declare the southern 6. So neither side can guarantee fully the match ups they like.

Anyway if you are really sold on those 5 I think Cleveland's map is best for this one game. But a random is best of all. Whatever we play we have to find someone (or some method) to place the powers. Unless you want to go random which is likely to marginalise some powers into spectators (and turn others in to doomed surrounded victims) on set up :(

[atul]

I thought the idea of at least map # 3 was to put teams into two cocentric circles. Vets in the middle and noobs on the edges. Could accomplish the same goal as hoplosternums.

Anyway the effect of these mostly uniform maps and geometric placements will be that the first kill will be a hard thing to achieve. How it will play will be fun to see...

[TheDemon]

The map I'm talking about is greatly different than the one referred to in your maps post. I'll attach it.

I think if you took the World of Geometry remake (prepo team arena version, not the regular version), took out all special indeps and sites, added cave connections between the branches so that the noobs can support each other and if one of them dies it threatens their immediate neighbors rather than giving a time buffer, and then added some more connections between places near the center to the caves OR eliminate the center <-> caves connections entirely. I don't think either team wants to keep on switching ownership of the center prov just to be able to perform an offensive through that prov.

Here's the original map, and also included is a second version that I propose as the variant we use. I've just swapped the center prov's connections to the 4 port provs surrounding it, removed all special sites, indeps, and poptypes, removed the VP, and added some branch<->branch connections to allow the noobs to interact. When placing starts on this map, I recommend putting the vets between the center and the start of the branches, not too close to the port provs as you don't want us in the caves system early. For the vets, something like provs 215, 144, 143 etc). The noobs should get access to the caves system early and most of their branch, I'd recommend placing them pretty far back in the branches, something like 132, 229, 56. You'll have to do some nostart editing as the start positions I think are pretty fixed.

If there's one thing contentious about the things I've changed, I think it might be the branch<->branch connections. They connect all the noob caps in a big ring with small spaces in between, which could be difficult for dominion management, and perhaps defense. However, other than the caves system, there isn't any way to move between branches. If you put branch<->branch connections further up the branches, it would be safer, but the vets might secure them first.

[cleveland]

Hi all,

S-S tells me you guys are considering Planet Rorschach for your map. If so, I hope you enjoy it, as this seems like a fun game.

The most up-to-date version is available in my signature, annoyingly named PlanetRorschach v4b.

S-S also asked for some placement advice...If I were setting up this game, I'd probably set the teams up as follows:
8352
...where Blue is the Vet team, Red is Noobs. [I'd eliminate all the starts with a white slash through them, so no underwater nations.]

With these starts, the Vets have "circled the wagons" against the Noob assault (remember, it's wraparound), but they're split in half by the sea...so the water AND the center are both of vital strategic importantance. For added fun, I'd probably put the weakest Noob nation in the center, which the Vets will surely drive directly toward, making for some exciting Turn 5 action.

Let me know if you have any more questions. I'm traveling this weekend (as usual), but shouldn't be more than 12hrs from a computer.

Cheers,
cleveland

[vfb]

Well, while you are traveling, be sure to put the finishing touches on your much-anticipated MA Man guide. :)