Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI. Game Over. Team ACGHHS wins!

[Septimius Severus]

Game Status: The game is over. Team ACGHHS winning by concession @ turn 55.

Noobs and Vets game information links:

www.dom3minions.com/~nav/scores.html (http://www.dom3minions.com/%7Enav/scores.html) (score graphs)
www.dom3minions.com/~nav/bin/nav_chk.cgi (http://www.dom3minions.com/%7Enav/bin/nav_chk.cgi) (turns received)
www.dom3minions.com/~nav/stats.txt (http://www.dom3minions.com/%7Enav/stats.txt) (staling data)

Here are the settings for the first game in the planned three game series:

Era: Early Age ......... Magic Research: Standard ........... Special Site Frequency: 45 .... Indy strength: 4
Score Graphs: On .. HOF Entries: 15 ............................ Random Events: Common ..... M/R/S Multiples: 100
Renaming: On ........ Starting Provinces:1 ..................... Mods: BI 2.1G, Custom AIs .... Server: Dom3Minions

Admin: Septimius Severus
Custom AI design and placement: Gandalf Parker
E-mail Address for Turn Submission: nav@dom3minions.com
Team Forums: Noobs & Vets HQ (http://noobsvets.silverforum.net)
Map Editor/Chat Utility: Scriblink Online Whiteboard (http://www.scriblink.com/) (link courtesy of Gandalf)

Hosting Interval and Delays: First 10 turns @ 32 hours, 8 hours will be added every 10 turns thereafter with the maximum to be decided by consensus. Most delays (under 24 hrs) will be granted if accompanied by a PM to the admin(s), a forum post, and a reasonable amount of notice. Alternates/subs should be utilized for longer delays. There will be no rollbacks for any reason.

Nation Selection: Nation selection will begin once all human team slots have been filled and will be conducted via ordered list method. Vet team captains will receive first nation choice before the ordered list is resolved. After the resolution of the ordered list, swaps will be allowed from the unassigned pool. AI nations will then be assigned whatever is left.

Map and team placement: A randomly generated map will be used and starting locations defined as follows: The AI team in the center, with human teams placed to the north, south, east, and west of the AI team. Secondary/optional starts for the AI team may also be added. A neutral party will place teams into the predefined starting locations. By default the two most experienced players on each human team will be placed in the front or center with the noobs on the flanks or in the rear using the team roster below unless otherwise requested by team captains.

Team composition and qualifications: The teams will consist of 5 teams of 4 players each. The first four teams will be played by human players, the fifth by AI nations. Each human team will be composed of:

1 veteran Captain: 3 or more years of Dominions experience and/or Hall of Fame member.
1 intermediate level Lieutenant: 1 to 3 years of Dominions experience.
2 noobs: 1 year or less of Dominions experience.
2 alternates (optional but highly recommended). Alternate slots may be filled by either noobs or intermediate level players but not by vets.

Team Captain rights and responsibilities: Captains are responsible for their teams overall strategy and welfare, have the right to veto additions/deletions to their team (in consultation with the game admins) and alter/decide nation assignments, are charged with ensuring their team has alternates or subs available, and have final say over individual nation placement within their placement zone.

Communication: Teams may use the forums I have created here (http://noobsvets.silverforum.net) or make their own, use chat, e-mail, PM, in-game messaging, or any other method of communication they wish.

Victory Conditions: Eliminate every other team including the AI team or be the last team standing.

<table width="711" border="1" bordercolor="#000000" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0" height="285"> <col width="43*"> <col width="43*"> <col width="43*"> <col width="46*"> <col width="40*"> <col width="42*"> <tbody><tr valign="TOP"> <td width="17%" align="center"> Team Name</td> <td width="17%" align="center"> The Mysterios
</td> <td width="17%" align="center"> Deva's Darlings
</td> <td width="18%" align="center"> The Blessed Ones
</td> <td width="15%" align="center"> ACGHHS </td> <td width="16%" align="center"> The AI Menace
</td> </tr> <tr><td align="center" valign="top">Team Captain Nation/Status
</td><td align="center" valign="top">Agema
Lanka :aol:</td><td align="center" valign="top">DrPraetorious
Neifelheim :aol:</td><td align="center" valign="top">AlgaeNymph
Helheim :aol:</td><td align="center" valign="top">chrispedersen
Mictlan :aol:</td><td align="center" valign="top">Mag
Abysia :rip:
</td></tr><tr><td align="center" valign="top">Lieut/AI God
Nation/Status</td><td align="center" valign="top">Frozen Llama
Yomi :rip:</td><td align="center" valign="top">Frank Trollman
Ulm :aol:</td><td align="center" valign="top">Stagger Lee
Tir' na' Nog :aol:</td><td align="center" valign="top">Squirrelloid
Sauromatia :aol:</td><td align="center" valign="top">Mali
C'tis :rip:</td></tr> <tr><td align="center" valign="top">Player/AI God
Nation/Status</td><td align="center" valign="top">Septimius Severus
Fomoria :aol:</td><td align="center" valign="top">pyg
Hinnom :aol:</td><td align="center" valign="top">RabbitDynamite
T'ien C'hi :computer:
</td><td align="center" valign="top">chrispedersen
Pangaea :aol:</td><td align="center" valign="top">Grenc
Ermor :rip:</td></tr> <tr><td align="center" valign="top">Player/AI God
Nation/Status</td><td align="center" valign="top">Agusti
Kailasa :aol:</td><td align="center" valign="top">Illuminated One Caelum :aol:</td><td align="center" valign="top">viccio
Vanheim :computer:</td><td align="center" valign="top">GrudgeBringer
Arco :aol:</td><td align="center" valign="top">Riora
Agartha :rip:</td></tr><tr><td style="vertical-align: top;" align="center">Team Advisor
</td><td style="vertical-align: top;" align="center">Executor
</td><td style="vertical-align: top;" align="center">None
</td><td style="vertical-align: top;" align="center">Micah
</td><td style="vertical-align: top;" align="center">None
</td><td style="vertical-align: top;" align="center">N/A
</td></tr><tr valign="TOP"><td width="17%" align="center">Alternate
</td> <td width="17%" align="center"> Tam-Lin
</td><td width="17%" align="center"> CuriousCat
</td><td width="18%" align="center">PsiSoldier</td><td width="15%" align="center">shard </td> <td width="16%" align="center"> N/A
</td> </tr> <tr valign="TOP"> <td width="17%" align="center"> Alternate
</td> <td width="17%" align="center"> sum1lost</td> <td width="17%" align="center"> Tarrax
</td> <td width="18%" align="center"> Makinus
</td> <td width="15%" align="center"> SciencePro
</td> <td width="16%" align="center"> N/A
</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
And don't miss the next game in this exciting and innovative series featuring:


New teams and themes

More provinces to conquer

Additional special magic sites to claim
A deadlier and more powerful AI team to defeat
Introducing a new optional human played mercenary nation

New supporting roles for non-participants including advisors, diplomats, and spies

And much, much, more

Feel free to post suggestions if you have them. Thanks.

Historical links: NvV (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=42028), NvVII (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=42603), NvVIII (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=43195), NvV Noob Forum Archives (http://teamnoob.forumotion.net/forum.htm), NvV Vet Forum Archives (http://teamvet.forumotion.net/index.htm), NaV Concept Thread (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=43912)

[Septimius Severus]

The story so far:

In the aftermath of the vets defeat in NvV III, noobs and vets now co-exist peacefully. The old animosities are forgotten and new lasting bonds of friendship are forged. Groups of former enemies come together forming mixed clans. The old ways are not long forgotten, however, and constant feuding between clans is the order of the day.

Till one day a new sinister threat emerges. Noobs and vets must now come together to fight this new scourge that threatens the existence of both races and of the clans themselves. This new breed of enemy are without feeling or emotion of any kind. Cold and calculating their bloodlust knows no end.

Can the mixed clans of noobs and vets come together long enough to defeat this common enemy? And if defeated which clan will then assume rulership over the world and put an end to this endless quarreling once and for all?

[PsiSoldier]

I might join this one. I suppose I'd be the intermediate slot. Are we supposed to pick our nation now or wait till teams are created.

[Septimius Severus]

I might join this one. I suppose I'd be the intermediate slot. Are we supposed to pick our nation now or wait till teams are created.
Nation selection will begin once we fill up the teams. Will be done via either ordered list or first come, first server.

There are alot of games starting now but they are mostly FFA type games, so hopefully there will be enough players (especially vets) who remain free enough to join a good team game.

[pyg]

I've been following this thread for a bit and have interest in playing. I had a lot of fun with Sept. S., rdonj, and the gang in NvV I, a quick defeat in Yanging, and bailed out of boredom in a third game (Blood nations something). I have fairly considerable SP experience so I think I fall somewhere between intermediate and noob. I would be especially interested in being on a team with rdonj (please play) as I felt we had a good thing going in NvV I.

I also have some modding ability and can help there if needed.

[rdonj]

I've been following this thread for a bit and have interest in playing. I had a lot of fun with Sept. S., rdonj, and the gang in NvV I, a quick defeat in Yanging, and bailed out of boredom in a third game (Blood nations something). I have fairly considerable SP experience so I think I fall somewhere between intermediate and noob. I would be especially interested in being on a team with rdonj (please play) as I felt we had a good thing going in NvV I.

I also have some modding ability and can help there if needed.

Haha. With a personal request like that, I guess I can't say no. I thought you'd left us though, pyg. Well, I'm probably a low intermediate player myself, so if you want to say you're a noob, we can play on the same team ;)

I think we're going to have trouble getting vets to play in this game though. Many of them are pretty busy as of late, and NvV burned out quite a few of them. Plus I can't see vets really wanting to kill AIs. It might be best to just have intermediate players and noobs, the game would have a better chance of getting off the ground that way I think.

[GrudgeBringer]

I am not sure I understand the whole thing but it looks like fun...

I don't know if I am considered a Noob, but I am not on the same level as a lot of the others as I never played SP and just ask a lot of questions (hence my Captain Status).:up:

[ghoul31]

I will play. I am a noob.

And I think the noobs should get first choice of races.

[Septimius Severus]

I've been following this thread for a bit and have interest in playing. I had a lot of fun with Sept. S., rdonj, and the gang in NvV I, a quick defeat in Yanging, and bailed out of boredom in a third game (Blood nations something). I have fairly considerable SP experience so I think I fall somewhere between intermediate and noob. I would be especially interested in being on a team with rdonj (please play) as I felt we had a good thing going in NvV I.

I also have some modding ability and can help there if needed.

Welcome back pyg, I thought you had left the scene as well. But glad to see you again. I'll put you in as a noob on the same team as rdonj, since you have limited MP experience.

[Septimius Severus]

I am not sure I understand the whole thing but it looks like fun...

I don't know if I am considered a Noob, but I am not on the same level as a lot of the others as I never played SP and just ask a lot of questions (hence my Captain Status).:up:

Welcome back Grudge. You'll benefit from the AI element in this game since you have limited SP experience. The premise is quite simple defeat all other teams including the AI team.

[Septimius Severus]

Welcome PSI soldier, I'll put you in an intermediate slot (tentatively).

Welcome Ghoul. Glad to have you on board.

rdonj, yes I know many vets may be burned out or over extended however this concept is a bit different and represents a break from the NvV concept. Many of the vets had asked for smaller teams and they won't be playing together on the same team or up against huge odds.

The vets will have an opportunity to personally lead their group to victory. Let us hope they see the novelty and worth of this approach, if not yes, we could settle for some upper level intermediates like yourself instead.

[Septimius Severus]

And I think the noobs should get first choice of races.

With great responsibility comes great privileges, thus we may need to reserve first choice for the vet team captains. Once again this may be needed to help some vets "decide" to play but will not unbalance the game as each vet led team will be playing against each other.

[Fantomen]

I´ll play. I think I fall somewhere in between the noob and intermediate rank, so I could fill either spot depending on other signups.

[Septimius Severus]

I´ll play. I think I fall somewhere in between the noob and intermediate rank, so I could fill either spot depending on other signups.
Welcome aboard Fantomen!

[AlgaeNymph]

I've played a couple dozen games, held out for half of them until someone was declared victor, and won one. Do I count as a vet?

[Septimius Severus]

I've played a couple dozen games, held out for half of them until someone was declared victor, and won one. Do I count as a vet?
You'd probably fall into the intermediate category. If you'd like to join, I'll put you in an intermediate slot for now. Depending upon further signups the intermediate players may be promoted to the captaincy.

[AlgaeNymph]

Yes, I'd like to join. :)

[viccio]

Ok, i'm in the game!

[Septimius Severus]

Welcome Algae and welcome back viccio. I'll update the main post accordingly. If anyone wishes to switch teams of anything feel free.

I usually use # of forum posts and join date to give me a general idea of how long a player has been around. This of course is an arbitrary measure and doesn't mean much by itself for a multitude of reasons.

Who is a noob and who is a vet is a relative idea of course. For instance Algae may be a vet compared to me as I have only 4 MP and 1 or 2 SP games completed. Whereas Algae might be a noob compared to maybe Ironhawk or Zeldor.

Some players may have hundreds of SP games under their belt and extensive modding experience and forum posts but only a few MP games and still be a vet due to excellent grasp of game mechanics.

But generally in the context of the whole community I guess it refers to number of MP games played and generally implies numerous victories as a result of experience. If you've played in so many Dominions games that you can't count the number and/or your Shrapnel rank includes the word "General" and/or your in the Hall of Honor thread your likely a vet. Ultimately only you how much experience you have.

[chrispedersen]

Hey Sept.

Kudos for continuing the thread, and for creating interesting games.

I'd like to join, I think I qualify as a vet. I'd like to be considered for the Devas, if they'll have me; EA-Mictlan please.

[Septimius Severus]

Hey Sept.

Kudos for continuing the thread, and for creating interesting games.

I'd like to join, I think I qualify as a vet. I'd like to be considered for the Devas, if they'll have me; EA-Mictlan please.

Welcome Chris, your in for the Devas as Mictlan.

[Septimius Severus]

Looking through the available Dom2 and Dom3 maps, the closest fit I could find to match my intended setup seems to be one of the WOG arena series. However those maps are too large and/or may not be AI friendly.

I have therefore created a simple non-wrapping waterless square random map and have proposed two alternate versions of starting locations.

Map legend:

Solid red circles are the AI team starts, hollow red cirles are optional or bonus AI starts (that is if it is possible to give the AI (and not the human teams) two starting locations.

All other colors are the human team starts (whoever does the AI builds will be deciding which human team goes where).

The purple x represents the approximate center of the map and may be a good location for a powerful magic site.

The first option has the human teams arranged in sort of a square formation, the second has them lined up in straight lines.

[AlgaeNymph]

Option 1 is much better, each player has more space.

[Septimius Severus]

Option is much better, each player has more space.
Do you mean option 1?

[AlgaeNymph]

Oh.:o

Yes, Option 1.

[pyg]

It appears to me that the AI starts are a bit high relative to the map... closer to the Green team and farther from the Blue one than exactly equidistant.

[PsiSoldier]

Yeah, What Pyg said.. Like in one case the AI is only separated from green by 1 province where as it is separated from the opposing blue by 3 And the other green is separated by 2 spaces where the other blue is separated by 4 or 5.

[AlgaeNymph]

It appears to me that the AI starts are a bit high relative to the map... closer to the Green team and farther from the Blue one than exactly equidistant.And this is for both maps.

[chrispedersen]

Is there a .map file available?

[Septimius Severus]

You guys are right, the AI's are a bit high and a little to close to green I just noticed it. The imprecision of a random map (the provinces are smaller to the south) has caused this though it actually looks dead center if you were to count the pixels. I'll make quick fix to make things a bit more even, but do you guys generally prefer the squarish setup that Algae Nymph chose or the straight line one?

Thanks for the input.

Chris, I'll include the unmodified .map file for those who wish to check province connections. I've made fairly certain that no starting position is directly neighboring another and that each starting locale has at least 4 neighbors. The map is 240 provinces large (15 per player).

To keep the corners from being neglected, I'll also likely move the extra/optional AI starting provinces to the corners if OK with everyone.

[Septimius Severus]

With regard to teams, apparently Executor has agreed to captain The Mysterios and I am moving Chris over to Noobheim. Ideally I would have liked to have the vet captains join first so they could assemble their team as they see fit within the guidelines, but I'd encourage everyone to be open minded as we finalize teams.

[Septimius Severus]

As captain, Executor may choose a nation now.

Is everyone OK with standard research or would you prefer easy research?

Thanks.

[Executor]

Hello everyone,
So Cris took Mictlan? Than I'll take... Lanka.

I also prefer option 1 for starting position.

May I also ask where people stand about gem generators and if you'd be willing to include the mod Valerius created for his game Momentum2, not the whole mod but the tartarian related part.
Here's the link for Momentum2.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=43775

[chrispedersen]

As captain, Executor may choose a nation now.

Is everyone OK with standard research or would you prefer easy research?

Thanks.

I'd prefer difficult research. But lacking that standard is ok.

[DrPraetorious]

I'd prefer Easy research. Do we still need another captain? I'd be willing to captain team Deva.

[Septimius Severus]

Executor, Lanka is yours.

I personally would like to keep the game as plain as possible and limit the mods, bans, and all that other stuff that seem to be in vogue now. I've included BI to make the AI team a bit more competitive, but I'm generally conservative with changes to the stock game. However if the consensus is to propose a global agreement on gem gens and banned spells, or to use another mod that is fine by me. For us lesser experienced players and noobs it may not be an issue especially if the game doesn't run long.

Looks like mixed opinions regarding research so far.

Dr. P. if the Deva's are happy with you I don't see why you can't captain their team. If not, you can captain The Blessed Ones. We still need one more vet captain aside from yourself. What is your nation choice?

Option 1 seems to be the choice regarding map. I'm uploading a revised version of both though just in case.

[DrPraetorious]

Hm... if I take EA Ermor, can I reserve Niefelheim for one of my lieutenants :)?

[Septimius Severus]

Here are the revised versions of both placement options.

I've moves the optional/second AI starts to the corners of the map:

1. So that players don't neglect the corners of the map and forget about those provinces in their mad rush to gobble the AI in the center.

2. To give the AI team an additional edge (assuming we can place two starts for each AI nation using #specstart or #start).

3. To provide more action and challenge for the members of the human teams who are on the flanks/in the rear other than going straight for the other human teams.

It's not perfect but neither is the map, hopefully though, one or the other will suffice. If someone can come up with a better placement suggestion feel free though.

[Septimius Severus]

Hm... if I take EA Ermor, can I reserve Niefelheim for one of my lieutenants :)?

Nice try. :) Afraid not. Only the captains have first choice.

But if we do the rest of nation selection via ordered list your team can rank Niefelheim high, otherwise if we end up first come, first serve be sure to communicate with your team beforehand what nations each should take.

I'm guessing one of the other captains will grab it though. :D

[DrPraetorious]

I don't think we really want a gem generator mod. If the game gets to that point, just let the gem horders win.

This game is not CBM? I'd prefer no-CBM, but if it *is* CBM I want EA Ermor, otherwise I want EA Niefelheim.

[Septimius Severus]

This game should prove interesting:

1. The early advantage might go to the team who's members have more SP experience as they'd be able to expand faster and defeat the AI led nations sooner giving them an early province lead and so forth.

2. However, if that same team is weak in MP experience, they'd soon lose whatever early advantage they gained.

Team captains must ensure that not only their team wins, but that the less experienced players on their team survive if possible. This will require great leadership skills and good communication and coordination.

[Septimius Severus]

I don't think we really want a gem generator mod. If the game gets to that point, just let the gem horders win.

This game is not CBM? I'd prefer no-CBM, but if it *is* CBM I want EA Ermor, otherwise I want EA Niefelheim.

Non-CBM, Neifelheim is yours.

[chrispedersen]

Interesting. I quite enjoy EA-Ermor I haven't met others that do..

[chrispedersen]

Blue Please.

[Executor]

I'm for normal research, but I wouldn't mind any setting.
Non CBM? Uuu, that changes things, I already had my pretender more or less finished with CBM. How 'bout CB pretenders? :D:p

[Hoplosternum]

Hi Sept. I would like to play if there is a slot left. I imagine I am an intermediate.

But I am also happy to not play and do some AI Pretender designs. I am happy with most of the map commands so I am sure I can beef up the AIs a bit if that is your plan.

[chrispedersen]

Happy to have him on our team Sept.,

[AlgaeNymph]

Whoever the vet for The Blessed Ones is, I advise you to assign me a nation that's good with turtling, that's how I end up playing.

[Frozen Lama]

AHHHH, i so want to play, but i have two other games that are in their infancy...... :(

[chrispedersen]

Frozen, would you like to be an alternate sub?
We'll keep you in the discussion, brain storm sessions. We'd love to have you!

[Frozen Lama]

actually that's a good idea. sure, i can be an alt

[Septimius Severus]

Frozen, your in as an alternate for Noobheim.

Hoplo, your modding skills may be needed, I had either you or Gandalf in mind to setup the AI team and do the actual nation and team placements which is a non-playing position. Haven't heard back from Gandalf. Unless we can get someone else or someone has a better suggestion for who'd do the best job of it, I'll hold off on assigning you to a team. Which would you prefer more? to play or do design the AI and perhaps co-admin?

[Septimius Severus]

So we need one more vet captain, a neutral volunteer to design the AI builds and place teams and nations, more alternates are always a good idea especially for teams with players who may be absent from time to time, a few more noobs, a co-admin to help busy Severus would be nice too. ;)

I'm turning my attention for the moment to the question of victory and handling team concessions.

The victory condition is quite simple but may need some refinement. It is essentially defeat all other teams which is another way of saying last team standing. We may need to define/refine what a "team" means for this purpose.

If one player is left on the team that wins, does that still constitute a team?

Should there be a requirement that at least 3 nations be alive on the winning team or the game be called a draw by default?

I do have a slight fear that the game might devolve into a FFA between the vet team captains with everyone else having been killed and want to ensure that captains will not forsake the noobs on their teams.

Regarding concessions. At first I was going to say no team can concede but that would be difficult to enforce and likely impractical. Obviously this won't be an issue with the comp team, since it will not concede. But the human teams are different.

For instance, a team reduced to a single nation and a few provinces may very well want to throw in the towel and may hardly be expected to continue playing till they are completely wiped out or may otherwise lose interest and stale anyway.

We could handle team concessions by turning the team's remaining nations AI. However this would turn AI against AI if the AI team is still alive or in the area.

Or we could let the conceeding team just stale.

Or possibly distribute the remaining nation or nations to other human teams.

Show their be an automatic concession/defeat rule? Say if you lose 1/2 of your team's nations?

Comments/suggestions?

[chrispedersen]

You could say that a vets team loses when 2 of the 3 non vet players are eliminated.

The team continues to play to try to defeat the others - they just cannot win.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

My concern about the victory conditions however has to do with the *all* nature.

Usually a victory is decided *way* before the final citadels or players fall. Unless people are really looking for a fight to the last drop scenario?

[Septimius Severus]

The last team standing must have 3 out of their 4 nations still alive for a team to be declared the winner. That's kind what I was leaning toward. Failing that condition, it would effectively be a draw or stalemate in terms of real team victory.

But if we opt to just say that a team can win with only a single nation intact, well that would work also and may be the inevitable outcome, but it wouldn't encourage cooperation, teamwork and the "we win as a team or we don't win at all attitude" that I'd like us to strive for.

*All* in the stated victory condition just means that all opposing teams must eliminated or forced to concede but not necessarily completely wiped out to the last province. The exception of course is the AI menace team and/or AI controlled nations which will not concede and must be completely wiped out.

[Septimius Severus]

A slight tweak was needed to the revised option 1 starting locations. The .map file included in the archive has also been updated to fix a few issues with start provinces neighbors in the revised maps.

Now all starting locations have at least 4 neighbors and the secondary/optional AI starts have at least 3.

I've also posted a list of the province #'s corresponding to the starts in both map placement options. This will be used by our AI moder to place the AI and human teams.

[rdonj]

I don't really like the idea of needing so many team members alive to win. It's in the team's best interest to keep each player alive anyway due to forging paths and capabilities, making a requirement of having most of your team alive to win is unnecessary. Besides, if you can't win, what's the point in playing on? Sure you could frustrate the other teams, but overall it would just be depressing. And what if a team that's unable to win takes over the entire map? Or what if all teams lose enough players that no one can win?

Likewise, forcing a team to give up their nations if they lose a certain number of players seems wrong also. If you really want the teams to do that though, I suggest that a team goes AI if their vet leader is killed off. That would be slightly more palatable.

[Septimius Severus]

Rdonj seems to be in the camp that believes that a team can achieve an official team victory regardless of the number of nations they have left? Any other opinions?

No human team composed of more than 1 nation could really be set to AI if they concede as their individual nations would attack each other. Only the original AI team will be modded to ally with each other.

But we could have our AI modder add #allies commands to the map file for each human team just in case we need to set players to AI. This may result in more than one AI team present and competing with each other but that is fine I guess.

Edit: we could even have the AI modder go further and add the allies command for the AI Menace team, as well. This would take care of the issue of what to do with conceding teams as every nation that went AI would effectively become part of the AI menace team. Though that is alot of extra commands.

[chrispedersen]

Personally I think that if all the players teams have conceded or lost there is no reason to have to defeat the ai.

I like the idea of requiring the newbies to live. A vet can win only if his newbs win - talk about encouraging cooperation...

[Hoplosternum]

With the set up we have I would have victory conditions as follows:

There are 20 Capitals in the game. You should need 10 to win (and hold them for 3 turns). But you need at least one Capital from two different (none AI) teams. And your own Capitals only count if they are held by their original power (AI or not). So if you lose a team Capital you can take it back / gift it back to the original player and it still counts. But if that player has been eliminated or for what ever reason does not hold his Capital, even if his team does, that one does not count and they need an extra capital from somewhere else.

That should ensure that the teams try to keep everyone in, but doesn't cripple them if one or more are lost.

As I am not one of those players who likes to play on and on and on and on just for the sake of it. I would also allow concessions if there is a an obvious winner. Let say that if all the other Team captains (the Vets) agree then a winning team can be declared before this.

Re whether I play or mod the map. I would prefer to play as I like team games :) But if you can't find anyone else I will step down and mod the map.

[Septimius Severus]

Hoplo, I'm putting you on Chris' team unless you prefer to go elsewhere, since he asked for you. Gandalf has agreed to setup the AIs for us. Hopefully he'll also agree to place the teams and nations into their starting locations as well.

Yes, I didn't realize the complication that multiple teams brings (versus just 2 teams) to a game. Of course this is all hypothetical and we may never have a problem but it is good to be prepared.

You do propose an interesting solution albeit one that strikes me straight off as a bit difficult for me to follow and I'm not quite sure how that would ensure team captains have an incentive to keep most of their members alive. But I'm probably a bit tired right now.

That is one issue, the other one I was worrying about is handling individual team concessions not in terms of victory but rather game-wise. In other words what to do with them after they concede and other teams are still viable. However, it seems that this can be handled via numerous #allies command in the .map file so that if any nation or team should need to be set AI (should they resign) they'll ally themselves against other human teams/nation.

Yeah, sure, a team or teams should be able to concede whenever they feel they've reached the point of no return as it were. I am sure we will all do our best to honor the good player pledge though and fight till the last minute.

[Septimius Severus]

We could just say this, instead of the 3 out of 4 idea or the single nation idea:

In order for a human team to win at least one noob must survive on the winning team. This would provide that incentive for team captains not to ignore their lovely noobs (not that they would) and put an effort into leading them and helping them stay alive and also make it possible for a team to win with 1 or two players left alive.

In the event all 8 noobs are completely wiped out or concede, which is what the above rule attempts to avoid, the winning team (aka last team standing) would need to have at least 1 intermediate player left alive for a team victory.

This works for me, of course I'll go with whatever the concensus is though. :)

[Hoplosternum]

Hoplo, I'm putting you on Chris' team unless you prefer to go elsewhere, since he asked for you. Gandalf has agreed to setup the AIs for us. Hopefully he'll also agree to place the teams and nations into their starting locations as well.

Cheers :)


You do propose an interesting solution albeit one that strikes me straight off as a bit difficult for me to follow and I'm not quite sure how that would ensure team captains have an incentive to keep most of their members alive. But I'm probably a bit tired right now.

Well you can double up the penalty for not holding one of your original capitals with the original power if you like. So each lost capital requires you go and get two others to compensate.

But I don't think Vets abandoning noobs or taking them over will be a problem. Why would the Vet want all the extra admin when he can simply ask for most of the gold and gems instead :p Plus this is EA so capital only SCs/mages are even more common and important than usual. Your teammates capitals are usually better off in their hands.


That is one issue, the other one I was worrying about is handling individual team concessions not in terms of victory but rather game-wise. In other words what to do with them after they concede and other teams are still viable. However, it seems that this can be handled via numerous #allies command in the .map file so that if any nation or team should need to be set AI (should they resign) they'll ally themselves against other human teams/nation.

I believe setting each team up as allies will work. But you can't link them to the original AI team as then the AI team won't attack them (I think). I know that you can attack an allied AI, but I am not sure they ever attack you (or at least attack you first).

But teams quitting will be a potential issue. How do you keep people playing when they have lost interest or see no hope? Teams help. It is harder to quit when you are letting allies down. Plus if the victory conditions are not that hard then a team in a hopeless position does not have that long to hold out before someone wins or knocks them out.

[Fantomen]

Interesting as it sounds, I will bail out of this game.

[rdonj]

Hoplo's suggestion seemed like a good one to me.

[Septimius Severus]

Frankly, I haven't the slightest idea what Hoplo is talking about really and keeping track of who holds what for how many turns and which capitals are held by the original owners, and what else? Makes this sound far to complicated to me :confused:. But I do thank him and anyone else who has had something to say on the matter. :clap:

Basically, those two rules I elucidated boil down to not allowing the vet captain to claim a victory if he is the only nation left on his team. It was intended to address my concern that the game might naturally devolve into a FFA between the 4 vet captains who are likely to outlive the less experienced members of their teams and also to act as a way to reinforce the responsibilities and leadership role of the captaincy.

I agree, most of this is academic talk and probably will not become an issue. I am sure the vet captains will do everything they can to keep their less experienced team members alive and will show excellent leadership and cooperative skills.

While Chris and myself seem to be in one camp and rdonj and hoplo in the other, if there are no other opinions I won't let this be a deal breaker or stumbling block. :up: We will drop the issue entirely and just let a team claim victory regardless of who or how many nations are left on their team.

Yeah, hoplo, as a precaution, to handle the issue of if/when a team concedes, what to do with them, we will likely add ally commands for each human played nation on each team, so that if a team concedes, and the nations are turned AI, the individual nations on that team would not attack each other.

Now do we want these newly AI'ed nations to also ally with the orginal AI team (if by some chance they are still present) which can be done easily as well, against any remaining human teams/players? Or do we want them to fight against the AI menace as if they were a human team (AIs fighting AIs). I am in favor of the former option, as it would fit the theme of the game.

Be aware though, that just as in NvV, we cannot set individual nations to AI within a team if there are any other human nations still playing and keeping up the fight on that team since the AI WOULD attack other members of the team. All the more reason to make sure we've got alternates ready to go or someone else on the same team who can take two nations on.

[Septimius Severus]

Just need three more noobs and a vet to captain The Blessed Ones team and we are ready to being nation selection. A few alternates wouldn't hurt either.

Is the preference for ordered list or first come, first serve method?

Thanks.

[Executor]

The minimum required number of players for a team to achieve victory should be a single player of course.
No 'single' player will get credit for winning this game so I doubt any vet will sacrifice his own team member.
We're only playing for the fun of it, well that's just how I see it. After all this is not a game for victory driven players.

I seriously recommend CBM pretenders and scales mod this time. I'm fine either way, but it opens for much more.

[hunt11]

Sounds interesting, I would like to join. My game experience is 7 games but out of those 7 I have only survived 3 times into late.

[chrispedersen]

I would like to suggest each vet orders the remaining nations into groups of three, by his teams preference. Each nation to be chosen once.

If there are no conflicts on a teams choice, the team gets its choice. If a nation is desired by more than one team, neither team gets it.

This would encourage choosing lesser used nations.

So, for example


Mysterious.....Darlings.....Blessed.....Noobheim
Ermor..........Ermor........Tir.........Arco
Sauro..........Rlyeh........Pan.........Ulm
Hinnom.........Ulm..........Ctis........Aby
*************************************************
Cael...........Agartha......Ulm.........Pan
Yom............Hinnom.......Hinnom......Van
Rlye...........Fomoria......Tien........Hel


... etc.


In the first round the blessed's get their pick - no one else picked em. Everyone else had at least one one conflict, so they graduate to their second picks.

There are no conflicts in their second pics (Blesseds don't count as they got their first picks).

I would then say assign the AI's from the available first picks= )

[chrispedersen]

I've played with hunt before happy to have him.

In the other games they had set up whiteboards and forums - how was that done, may I ask?

[Septimius Severus]

The minimum required number of players for a team to achieve victory should be a single player of course.
No 'single' player will get credit for winning this game so I doubt any vet will sacrifice his own team member.
We're only playing for the fun of it, well that's just how I see it. After all this is not a game for victory driven players.

Yep, we all recognize the contributions of nations to their team, even if the majority of the team is killed. We certainly won't rob a team of victory if there only happens to be a single player left on that team (no matter how likely). It's a team effort and will be a team win. Yes, this is not a victory driven game or game for ego centrists. [/Quote]

I seriously recommend CBM pretenders and scales mod this time. I'm fine either way, but it opens for much more.

I'm fine with vanilla for simplicity's sake and because to tell the truth, as a noob, I haven't played enough games with CBM and without to be able to note any game shattering differences or major drawbacks or benefits. In fact, I haven't played any with stock so I guess I sorta want to give it a try. But that is my opinion only. :)

[Frozen Lama]

even though i'm just an alt, i'd have to recommend CBM for sure. just the pretender part makes the choices and strats so much more interesting.

[Septimius Severus]

I would like to suggest each vet orders the remaining nations into groups of three, by his teams preference. Each nation to be chosen once.

If there are no conflicts on a teams choice, the team gets its choice. If a nation is desired by more than one team, neither team gets it.

This would encourage choosing lesser used nations.

So, for example


Mysterious.....Darlings.....Blessed.....Noobheim
Ermor..........Ermor........Tir.........Arco
Sauro..........Rlyeh........Pan.........Ulm
Hinnom.........Ulm..........Ctis........Aby
*************************************************
Cael...........Agartha......Ulm.........Pan
Yom............Hinnom.......Hinnom......Van
Rlye...........Fomoria......Tien........Hel


... etc.


In the first round the blessed's get their pick - no one else picked em. Everyone else had at least one one conflict, so they graduate to their second picks.

There are no conflicts in their second pics (Blesseds don't count as they got their first picks).

I would then say assign the AI's from the available first picks= )

That method would work fine (assuming I understand you correctly) grouping and choosing 3 uncontested picks at a time in a series of rounds, though there are likely to be quite a few conflicts so it will probably require a few rounds. So we would probably need a larger list of nations from each team, as opposed to if we were to just give each team their uncontested first, second, third, and so forth picks.

So we have 17 available nations (excluding the vet picks and water nations). Grouped into 3's and ranked from least to most desireable. That's 5 groups of 3's, I guess the sixth round/group would only contain 2 then?

Regarding the AI choices. If your intention above is to reserve some "decent" nations for the AI by assigning them out of the first round picks, that might work, though I'm sure Gandalf will be able to work with whatever is left.

[Septimius Severus]

I've played with hunt before happy to have him.

In the other games they had set up whiteboards and forums - how was that done, may I ask?

Welcome Hunt, is that fine with you? No objections from the other captains?

If your team would like to use a forum, you can set up a free one at forumotion. Check with rdonj, if you need any advice. There may also be other free forums you can use.

[Septimius Severus]

even though i'm just an alt, i'd have to recommend CBM for sure. just the pretender part makes the choices and strats so much more interesting.

I value everyone's opinion. But if I don't hear some more of them from our starting team members I'm going with stock. So speak up people! :D

As the saying goes, if you say nothing, you have no say.

Research Standard
Hosting via Llamaserver
Mod: BI
Indy strength:4

Etc.

[chrispedersen]

I'm fine with standard. I think with a large number of noob players, it is probably a good idea.

[Hoplosternum]

CBM would be my choice too. Especially the Pretenders but I would just play CBM full given a choice.

It helps Noobs and AIs more than Vets as it in general makes weak things better. This means that poorer choices in Pretender design or army builds are not punished so much as they are more viable (but still not equal to the better choices) as they would be in stock. Plus it adds to the variety as more summons, pretender choices, spells, magic items and troop types become viable. It's also becoming the default mod for games. A year or two ago the only commonly seen mod was Worthy Heroes and most games had that. Now it's CBM - so even for learning purposes playing with CBM is better. Many/most of the modern guides are CBM or at least have CBM bits to them too.

I don't mind playing with stock but it is in all ways worse than CBM.

I also like graphs on, 15 Hall of Fame, Standard or Difficult research and Renaming On. After all humerous renaming of Thugs and Mages is part of the fun :)

EDIT: My Captain and I don't seem to agree on anything so far :p

[rdonj]

I haven't played a game vanilla in over a year. Without CBM I almost don't know how to play anymore. Like several others, having at least CBM pretenders would be nice, since it makes a lot more pretenders usable. But I don't feel too strongly either way, I can cope if we end up playing w/out cbm.

[hunt11]

I'm good with having Chripederson as my captain.

[RabbitDynamite]

I'll sign up as a noob, only two games experience.

[chrispedersen]

That method would work fine (assuming I understand you correctly) grouping and choosing 3 uncontested picks at a time in a series of rounds, though there are likely to be quite a few conflicts so it will probably require a few rounds. So we would probably need a larger list of nations from each team, as opposed to if we were to just give each team their uncontested first, second, third, and so forth picks.

So we have 17 available nations (excluding the vet picks and water nations). Grouped into 3's and ranked from least to most desireable. That's 5 groups of 3's, I guess the sixth round/group would only contain 2 then?

Regarding the AI choices. If your intention above is to reserve some "decent" nations for the AI by assigning them out of the first round picks, that might work, though I'm sure Gandalf will be able to work with whatever is left.

I would just go with five groups of three, leaving two nations unbid for (increases the chances of no conflict).

Order the groups from most favorite to least favorite. Absent conflict, you get your entire group of nations.

Each team are going to put together concepts - so this lets a team get its entire concept - rather than a hodge podge.

If the entire 5 rounds go through with one or more teams with no choices, remaining teams repeat the process.

[Septimius Severus]

Ok hunt, your on Chris's team.

Hoplo, it is alright if you don't see totally eye to eye with your captain on certain things. I think a good captain should guide their charges and should allow a certain amount of room for individual choice.

Chris, I am aware the human teams may decide to go for a bless strategy, or some other theme or concept so I am sure a team would rank appropriate nations higher anyway. I'll let Gandalf work with the whatever is left for the AI team though. Much easier that way, unless he informs me otherwise.

If everyone is OK with Chris' idea, each team will need to come up with 15 nation picks, grouped into 3's, and arranged from most wanted to least desirable.

Welcome Rabbit, two slots left, you may join the Mysterios or The Blessed Ones.

Let's try to line up some reliable alternates too, saves time and trouble. And as usual, I will guarantee our alternates spots in future games and may give a first or second choice priviledge to them for helping out.

[Septimius Severus]

I am assuming everyone is good with the revised option 1 starting locations.

With regard to CBM, I generally like the pretender enhancements and the worthy hero stuff, but some of the more recent changes give me pause. I am also concerned about possible conflicts with the BI mod. I am going to investigate a bit further and possibly contact QM or Edi regarding this. The BI mod removes most of the useless chaff units from the AIs choices anyway, so I don't know if it will help or hinder the AI.

[pyg]

If more voices/votes make a difference, I would prefer CBM.

[melnorjr]

Well, it seems I will be co-adminning this game(unfortunately not playing it though).

I'm mostly going to be on the forums(and this thread) from about 17:00 GMT(5 pm) to about 1:00 GMT (1 am). (or about noon-8PM central standard time, for those in my part of the world.)

The best way to reach me for something urgent though is to PM me - I might go a few hours without reading the thread, but I'll usually get a PM within a few minutes.

[DrPraetorious]

Well, I do *not* want CBM because I'm in two CBM games already and CBM seriously generfs Niefelheim now :(.

[chrispedersen]

There is a lot of water under the bridge on this.

Dr.P was given Niefle, based on a nonCBM game. I've gamed more than 5 games preparing for the BI mod; the changes in 1.6 - no gem generators, item pricing changes is a *vast* difference from the starting conditions announced at the beginning.

I of course will *cheerfully* play anythign that is decided - I just think its late in the process to change the game conditions.

Edit: Ninja'd a bit by Dr.P. As I said the changes to Niefleheim are substantial enough to really make it unfair.

[melnorjr]

In my opinion, it would be somewhat unfair to use CBM at this point, since DrP is playing a nation that he chose contingent on the non-use of CBM.

edit - Err, yeah. this was already said. :p

[Executor]

Well I suggested CB Pretenders that have no impact on any nation playability(if that's even a word :p), not necessarily the whole CB mod to be used in the game.
Like I said, I'm merely suggesting this, as I feel CB Pretenders opens a whole other set of strategies for any nation.

[Septimius Severus]

Welcome Melnorjr, it is good to have a co-admin and one of our NvV alumni to help me out and act as an extra set of eyes. I think it will benefit everyone.

Since Gandalf will be doing the AI nations, I've asked for his recommendation as well. Gandalf is more familiar with stock and would prefer non-CBM in terms of his ability to work with and produce good AI builds and pretenders.

Though, I like Executors idea of using the CBgods in the split CBM only, I am concerned about the above and want to keep things simple and avoid any more delays if possible.

I am also concerned that with the complete CBM 1.6 that some may be advocating, the changes to gem gens, clams, fever fetishes, etc. may adversly affect some nations.

[RabbitDynamite]

I'll go with the blessed ones unless Septimus has a preference. Otherwise I won't be able to shake the feeling I'm on a genocidal crusade to promote the worship of a Mexican wrestler.

[Septimius Severus]

I'll go with the blessed ones unless Septimus has a preference. Otherwise I won't be able to shake the feeling I'm on a genocidal crusade to promote the worship of a Mexican wrestler.

Hah, yes, the Mysterios. The team's name is deeply ingrained in the lore of NvV. :) Wonder if Executor will change it.

Ok, Rabbit, your on the Blessed Ones, hope you guys can find a captain soon. I am doing what I can to help.

Settings note: I'm changing the starting hosting interval to 32 hours to match what we had in NvVIII and allow more time for intra-team communcation.

Team Captains: If your starting team is complete you can begin the process of drawing up your ranked list of 15 nations. If you have a theme or concept in mind, might be a good time to discuss it with your group. After that or in lieu of it, one way to do it quickly is to have each member of your team send you their top 3-5 nation choices and build your list from those.

[Executor]

Ooooooookay, I don't get the whole Mysterious thing but no matter.
I have no problem with the team name, but we could always go for Dominions United. :)

Shouldn't we wait just a bit more with nation picks until we have all the teams filled?

[Septimius Severus]

Actually, those teams who have their 4 starting members already (excepting our team and The Blessed Ones) can go ahead and draw up their list if they want. I forgot in my above post that we still need 1 more captain and his nation pick to exclude from our lists, but if The Deva's and Noobheim wish, they can just turn in the 15 + 1, and we will just cross off whatever the final captain picks from their lists when they submit them to me via PM.

It is optional, but I figured we might as well get something done while we are waiting for the last 2 starting slots to be filled.

[iainuki]

While I'd love to play in future team games along these lines (without AIs, I'd say), I think I'm passing on this one. If you need help designing pretenders for the AIs or such, though, I'd be happy to help Septimius.

[Septimius Severus]

While I'd love to play in future team games along these lines (without AIs, I'd say), I think I'm passing on this one. If you need help designing pretenders for the AIs or such, though, I'd be happy to help Septimius.
Thanks for your offer Iainuki, I'll keep you in mind. You were quite reliable and effective as an alternate in the last game, and I do wish you'd help us by filling an alternate slot on the team of your choice. This game has an interesting dynamic: multiple teams, mixed experience levels, an AI element, and since it is the first in this planned series, how it will play out, is anyone's guess and should be quite interesting to watch and/or be a part of.

[Maerlande]

Hi folks,

I'd like to try this game as my first multiplayer. I read the categories and I guess I'm not a true noob because I've played a hundred or so SP games although they are mostly experimental. However, if you'd consider me a noob I'd like to take the spot on the mysterios.

Oh and my favourite nation is monkeys any age. Kailasa I mean. I've never tried Lanka.

Regards,
Maerlande

[Septimius Severus]

Hi folks,

I'd like to try this game as my first multiplayer. I read the categories and I guess I'm not a true noob because I've played a hundred or so SP games although they are mostly experimental. However, if you'd consider me a noob I'd like to take the spot on the mysterios.

Oh and my favourite nation is monkeys any age. Kailasa I mean. I've never tried Lanka.

Regards,
Maerlande

Welcome Maerlande. While you might not qualify as truly noobish, the majority of this game (around 80 percent) is purely MP, and since this is your first MP game, I'd say you qualify. Welcome to The Mysterios.

Now we just need a team captain for The Blessed Ones and we can get going.

[chrispedersen]

Suggest if a noob comes along that you let Rdonj captain.
He is certainly good enough.

[rdonj]

Suggest if a noob comes along that you let Rdonj captain.
He is certainly good enough.

I respectfully disagree :). All of the team captains are much better players than I am. I'm knowledgeable, but I just don't have anything like the experience that any of the other captains have. Any of them would eat me for breakfast.

[Lingchih]

I will offer to captain team Mysterios (it only makes sense, since the team was named after me). That means Executor would have to switch to captain The Blessed Ones. My nation does not matter, you can just give me one Sept. Ermor would probably be thematic.

This is the only conditions under which I will play.

[Septimius Severus]

I will offer to captain team Mysterios (it only makes sense, since the team was named after me). That means Executor would have to switch to captain The Blessed Ones. My nation does not matter, you can just give me one Sept. Ermor would probably be thematic.

This is the only conditions under which I will play.

I am fine with that, but let us hear from Executor on the matter.

[Hoplosternum]

Executor does not want the team name and suggested a replacement name.

I assume it is the name rather than the players that Lingchih wants? Or maybe he will only play if you are on his team Sept :p Swapping the team players about may be more difficult if they have already started discussing plans....

[Executor]

Swapping the team players about may be more difficult if they have already started discussing plans....

Yeah, we've started, and I've reviled my strategy with Lanka.
But I have no problem changing teams, or names, GO DOMINIONS UNITED!!! :bow::first:
However, I'd have to switch nations if I'm changing teams, hmmm, Hinnom alowed!?!??!:D

Sorry, I'm a little carried away by the Eurobasket 2009, it's finals today.:eek:

[DrPraetorious]

We need one more vet, huh?

Someone contact Micah and tell him he's a pussy.

[chrispedersen]

It seems as if Lingchi really just wants to captain a team with the name Mysterious - and executor doesn't care about the name.

(Correct me if I'm wrong)
So change the team names - and lets go!

[Lingchih]

Nevermind. I've changed my mind. I'm still too burned out on this series to do a team justice. You guys go ahead without me.
Sorry for the post.

[archaeolept]

if you can't find another vet, I'd suggest exe moving over to fill the missing team's captaincy, promoting psi to the first team's captain (he's certainly capable), and adding frozenlama to that first team, who strikes me as a noob with a lot of potential.

of course Executor and Psisoldier probably have already created a terrifying plan for world conquest :D

[Septimius Severus]

I am grateful to those vets who have participated thus far and who have participated in my games in the past. I would like to see one of those who have yet to do so, step up and take on the challenge. They know who they are. But I'd just as eagerly welcome any of the old ones, including Ling, back into the fold as well. Failing that we may have to seek an upper level intermediate or follow Arch's suggestion.

This game is not for those vets who are only interested in playing with other vets exclusively or who won't consider a game unless it advances them in the HOF standings. The emphasis remains on cooperation, learning, helping the many lesser experienced players in the community become better at the game, and just plain having a good time.

Who will help?

[Frozen Lama]

ChrisP has not let me in on anything that i shouldn't know, so if i switch teams or something its cool. i can play on any of the slots, noob or otherwise.

[archaeolept]

I do like the concept behind this game (more so than the NvV series which had to engage in complex formulaics in attempting balance); two players who've been around and two who've less so.

I'm committed to one small game upcoming, and honestly that is at my limit, currently.

I wouldn't worry too much about the notion of "vet". As long as they've played a few games and seen a few tricks :)

[PsiSoldier]

if you can't find another vet, I'd suggest exe moving over to fill the missing team's captaincy, promoting psi to the first team's captain (he's certainly capable), and adding frozenlama to that first team, who strikes me as a noob with a lot of potential.

of course Executor and Psisoldier probably have already created a terrifying plan for world conquest :D

Well, we have done a little bit of planning I'm the one that asked Executor to captain my team in the first place, although nothing has been decided concretely. We can do whatever we have to do to get things moving along though.

I would say I am not yet a Vet, I still find myself asking questions and learning new things all the time. But I am good and I know that much.

Maybe thats enough.

[shard]

I'll be interested in being an alternate; don't have time to commit as a player right now as I've still got a number of games running in the early stages.

[Septimius Severus]

I'll be interested in being an alternate; don't have time to commit as a player right now as I've still got a number of games running in the early stages.
Welcome shard, have you any team preference?

[Septimius Severus]

I've created 4 forums for those teams who wish to use them at:

http://noobsvets.silverforum.net

Contact your team captain or admins for the code you'll need before registering.

Thanks.

[shard]

Either Noobheim or Mysterios I guess, I'd like to see how a vet plays heavy blood nations.

[Septimius Severus]

Either Noobheim or Mysterios I guess, I'd like to see how a vet plays heavy blood nations.

Ok, I'll add you to the Mysterios, since Noobheim already has an alternate.

[chrispedersen]

I've been thinking about my original suggestion of nation picking and concluded that it will lead to a lot of rounds of conflicted picks. Which might be fun if we were all sitting in a room - but resubmitting pick lists based via mail might be a pain.

How about instead the following pick list

Team A
Team B
Team C
Team D
Team D
Team C
Team B
Team A
Team D
Team C
Team B
Team A

Then each team can (secretly) submit a list of what which team they would like to be. So for example B-A-D-C would say I want our team to be Team b- and failing that to be team A, then D, then C.



Sept would give any uncontested choices, and then roll randomly between contested choices.

[Septimius Severus]

Chris, can you clarify your above post. Your original intent behind your first suggestion was to ensure that some of the lesser picked nation's would be chosen via the groups of 3. But because of the conflicts, I suggested just a simpler method:

Each team provides a ranked list of say 12 nation picks (we need only 3 nations to pick on each team). I run through the four lists, line by line, and grant each uncontected pick (if present) on each line to the respective teams.

Myst.......Deva's........Blessed..........Noobheim

Hinnom....Arco..........Hinnom...........Abys (Deva's get Arco, and Noobheim gets Abys)
Arco........Ermor.........Sauro............Hinnom (Deva's get Ermor, Blesseds get Sauro, Noobheim gets Hinnom)
Ermor......Sauro.........Agartha..........Arco (Blesseds get Agartha)

Etc.

This would be much simpler for me (if I'm doing the distribution) and would ensure that generally lesser picked nations get choosen if the teams rank them high enough. True it is not likely teams will rank Machaka over Hinnom, but since we don't know what strategies the teams are pursuing, we can't be certain they won't choose or rank a lesser played nation high.

[chrispedersen]

Sure sept. Each team will either be Team A, Team B, Team C, or Team D.

Each team then pics a nation according to the schedule below. Team A pics first, then b, etc.

1. Team A
2.Team B
3.Team C
4.Team D
5.Team D
6.Team C
7.Team B
8.Team A
9.Team D
10.Team C
11.Team B
12.Team A


Advantages: 'Fairer' less likely to be subject to whims of luck.
Teams more likely to be evenly distributed.

Disadvantages: Weaker AI's.

[Septimius Severus]

That would work also, if it is done from ranked lists, and it would be the same way we did it in NvV3. But if it is done by waiting for an individual post it would take forever.

Only problem with the method, since one team must go first, it gives team A an effective first choice, and gives team D two picks in a row. Though, your right, it would be less subject to luck.

However, if we go with my method, luck is reduced somewhat, since we have 4 teams, it is less likely than having say 2 teams, that all 4 would have the same picks each time.

So lets decide, which method do the rest of you prefer, chris' suggestion or mine?

[Hoplosternum]

I like Chris's method although it will take some time. It will also allow people to theme/coordinate their team more. As they will know what they have for their first pick before they make their second. And see how the other teams are forming.

But it does take longer of course.

I would not worry too much about the AIs. Popular choices are likely to be those with good Thugs and Mages which the AIs will use badly rather than good troops that it will use well. Plus a lot of boosts can be given by map commands. Gandalf could start each with 100 of their best troops (or indeed any type of troops from any age) or more. Plus some kitted out Thugs etc. Which should boost them at the beginning at least.

[Immaculate]

Hi,
If you need a newb, i would like to try.

Immac.

[Septimius Severus]

Hi,
If you need a newb, i would like to try.

Immac.

Welcome Immac. Yes, we can always use more noobs and intermediate level players to fill our alternate slots, unless you have a preference I am going to assign you to the Mysterios, as an alternate.

You may be called into the active lineup before the game starts if a slot opens up. Otherwise you can expect action if someone needs a sub or drops during the game.

[Septimius Severus]

Frankly, I am disappointed that no one in the community has the time, or the courage, or the desire, to fill the vet team captain position in our game. Nonetheless, we've waited long enough, done what we could, and now we must move on to the nation selection process.

Therefore, following Arch's advice, I am making the following team changes:

I am moving PsiSoldier to The Blessed Ones, and promoting him to the captaincy of that team. Psi, please choose your nation ASAP and register for the forums if you wish to use them. Psi and Executor, you'll either need to change strategies or forget what you've discussed.

I am moving Frozen Llama to the intermediate slot on the Mysterios to fill Psi's vacant slot.

I am also moving Shard to Noobheim's alternate slot to compensate for the loss of Frozen Llama as an alternate for that team.

We should now be able to move on to the nation selection process. If you've opinions/questions regarding this process, now is the time to express them.

Thanks.

[AlgaeNymph]

We should now be able to move on to the nation selection process. If you've opinions/questions regarding this process, now is the time to express them.The captain selects my nation for me, correct?

[Maerlande]

It sounds fine to me to get started that way. Frankly, I don't have an opinion on the selection process. It's too new to me. But I'm itching to play :)

[Septimius Severus]

We should now be able to move on to the nation selection process. If you've opinions/questions regarding this process, now is the time to express them.The captain selects my nation for me, correct?

If we follow chris' suggestion, and If I understand it correctly, yes, the captains would do the nation selections via posts on this thread (in consultation with their team of course) in the alternating manner chris described in his last post. ABCDD, and so forth. I am assuming that team A would be the mysterio's and would go first (after psi makes his choice of course), team B would be the Deva's, team C would be the Blessed Ones, and team D would be Noobheim.

If you'd prefer my method or another one, now is the time for everyone to speak up.

Chris, if this is not what you had in mind, then I apologize and we will await a fuller explanation.

DrP, Executor, Psi, make sure you understand and are OK with what has been suggested.

[chrispedersen]

Let each captain send a list (as I have) of their Prefences in order.

Ie., perhaps mysterious absolutely wants to pick first to get Hinnom. They would might tell you they want to be team A. And if they can't get A they want B, then C then D.

Another team may choose to be D, A B C.

You as the admin take those suggestions - and then resolve to give the result closest to their best choice.

Then let the picking begin.

[DrPraetorious]

I would like to be team D. I need to consult with my lieutenants before picking nations, however.

[Septimius Severus]

Let each captain send a list (as I have) of their Prefences in order.

Ie., perhaps mysterious absolutely wants to pick first to get Hinnom. They would might tell you they want to be team A. And if they can't get A they want B, then C then D.

Another team may choose to be D, A B C.

You as the admin take those suggestions - and then resolve to give the result closest to their best choice.

Then let the picking begin.

Chris, this is quite convoluted, but I think finally understand what your saying:

Team captains PM me with a list of their team letter preferences: A,B,C,D :Four letters in the arrangement they'd like to pick nations. So Dr. P would need 3 more letters(picks).

I then resolve to see who is going to be team A and pick first, who is going to be team B, and pick second, who is going to be team C and pick third, and lastly who is going to be team D and pick last.

Then we get to the actual nation picking and team A chooses their 3 nations and posts here?

Do I have it correct? Seems like everyone one would give there preference as a, b, c, d. In order to go first.

If not you've confounded me totally.

[Executor]

Hmm, wouldn't that lead to the first team getting the strongest nations and the forth team getting the weakest?
I'm fine either way whatever the nations are, but wouldn't it be easier to get random picks?

[Septimius Severus]

I really think we ought to stick with my suggestion, each captain submitting a list of 12 or so nations then I resolve via this method:

Myst.......Deva's........Blessed..........Noobheim

Hinnom....Arco..........Hinnom...........Abys (Deva's get Arco, and Noobheim gets Abys)
Arco........Ermor.........Sauro............Hinnom (Deva's get Ermor, Blesseds get Sauro, Noobheim gets Hinnom)
Ermor......Sauro.........Agartha..........Arco (Blesseds get Agartha)

Etc.

Lets keep this as simple as possible.

Failing any agreement or a full and complete explanation of any alternatives, I will make the final decision on this matter.

Sorry but we must getting going.

[Hoplosternum]

While I understand your frustration Sept I think your method is not a good one :(

Imagine that all teams put the same three nations top believing these to be the best. But they ALL go to one team simply because he ranked them differently. How is that fair or skillful yet would have a huge impact on the game. All nations were not made equal in Dom 3 :)

Plus it may let very powerful nations go 'cheap' later on, likewise if you are 'thinking the same' as another team you may both end up with just your lower ranked choices. So this method ends up making the rankings/voting very luck dominated.

It would be marginally better if you could pick the same nation multiple times (so you could put Himmon in all the top 5 slots if you wanted, more or less guaranteeing you get it but at the cost of most of the other top nations being taken by others before your second pick arrives).

It also does not really allow any meaningful team construction. By which I mean you may want a Researcher nation, a recruitable Thug nation and a sneaky raider nation. By your method it's much harder to bid for this as you won't know whether you will get your first picks or not. So you may end up with all Sneaky Raiders because the others were all tied.

Both of CPs methods were better IMHO. As both allowed you to use your bids to construct a team. They both allowed you much more control over what you got.

I appreciate they are slightly more complex and would take longer. But the second CP method (the ABCD teams) is pretty quick once the teams are decided. And we could use your method to select which letter each team gets :p

I suppose it doesn't matter that much, it's just that your method (which would be OK if this were a free for all none team game) seems very bad for team game.

[DrPraetorious]

How's about this - each captain sends in a list of 12 ranked nations, and then you assign the four teams to A,B,C and D randomly?

Then, A gets his first choice, B gets his first (remaining choice)... and then they go backwards?

[chrispedersen]

Hmm, wouldn't that lead to the first team getting the strongest nations and the forth team getting the weakest?
I'm fine either way whatever the nations are, but wouldn't it be easier to get random picks?

No

If you look at the pick list it goes ABCD for the first round.
Every round thereafter goes DCBA

So, yes, team A gets the first overall pick - the strongest nation overall. Every other round, he gets the weakest pick.

[archaeolept]

just ask me to assign nations based on what I consider to be the most evil and frustrating combinations :D

[melnorjr]

I've sent PMs to everyone who wasn't already signed up for the forums - feel free to use it for coordination as you like.

The forum, btw, is here: http://noobsvets.silverforum.net/index.php

[GrudgeBringer]

Wouldn't it just be easier to have someone (archaeolept) have as many numbers as their are captians.

Let the captians pick and thats the order for the first Round.

Second round its reversed, third round its reversed agian etc.

Like Fantasy Football (if any of you play that), its called a 'Snake draft' and it works real well and real fair. (ask the 50 illion plers every year).

so it goes like this (numbers are 1,2,3,4.

Team 1 picks, team 2 picks, team 3 picks, team 4 picks (Round 1 over)

Team 4 picks (yes he picks twice in a row) then team 3, team 2, team 1 (Round 2 over)

Team 1 picks agian ect. Works like a charm and even the 2 and 3 teams get thier fiarhare as they are in the middle each time.

[Septimius Severus]

There does seem to be little agreement on this.

Holpo and Chris, I understand your concern with my method. But the likelyhood that all four teams would rank the same 3 nations highest is slim. The odds of it happening are 1 in 204 (17 available nations * 3 slots * 4 teams). Even if teams are pursuing similar strategies, it is still not likely. And Psi is likely to grab Hinnom for his team, so that will take care of what I expect will be at the top of everyone's list.

Further, there are multiple researcher type nations, multiple stealth/raider nations, etc. Just be sure your ranked list has more than one of these fairly close to the top and you're likely to get most of what your looking for. Swaps for unassigned nations can be used to smooth out any issues.

But, I've already recieved a ranked list of 13 nations from the devas (12+1 to account for Psi's pick). Since we need these ranked lists from the other teams anyway, I suggest everyone do likewise and get those lists to me ASAP.

Then I'll resolve using both my method, and one similar to what we used in NvV, which was ABCDDCBA (just like what chris suggested) except with a random number generator (as DrP suggested) available on the web, for deciding which team is going to be A,B,C, or D.

I'll post the results and you guys decide which option you want to go with.

Sound fair enough?

[chrispedersen]

There does seem to be little agreement on this.

Holpo and Chris, I understand your concern with my method. But the likelyhood that all four teams would rank the same 3 nations highest is slim. The odds of it happening are 1 in 204 (17 available nations * 3 slots * 4 teams). Even if teams are pursuing similar strategies, it is still not likely. And Psi is likely to grab Hinnom for his team, so that will take care of what I expect will be at the top of everyone's list.



The odds you quoted are for random distribution - and have nothing to do with the problem at hand. No vet will pic yomi, agartha, hellheim, oceania, ea rlyeh as the strongest nation, for example.

The only difference between your second suggestion (random number generator) and mine - was that I'm letting team captains pick whether they want to be a,b,c or d rather than a random number generator.

[Septimius Severus]

There does seem to be little agreement on this.

Holpo and Chris, I understand your concern with my method. But the likelyhood that all four teams would rank the same 3 nations highest is slim. The odds of it happening are 1 in 204 (17 available nations * 3 slots * 4 teams). Even if teams are pursuing similar strategies, it is still not likely. And Psi is likely to grab Hinnom for his team, so that will take care of what I expect will be at the top of everyone's list.



The odds you quoted are for random distribution - and have nothing to do with the problem at hand. No vet will pic yomi, agartha, hellheim, oceania, ea rlyeh as the strongest nation, for example.

The only difference between your second suggestion (random number generator) and mine - was that I'm letting team captains pick whether they want to be a,b,c or d rather than a random number generator.

1. 17 nations doesn't include water nations, I don't know what a vet will pick for their top 3, but they could conceivably pick any of the 17 available.

2. Correct, but your method of picking which team wants to be A,B,C,D was rather confusing too me. You wanted vets to submit a list of 4 choices: like bcad, or abcd, or cabd, and I'd then need to resolve this as well to decide who gets to be team A (and gets the first pick) and so forth. It seems far too likely that teams would choose adbc or adcb in order of preference in order to get A or D since A grants an effective first choice, and D grants two picks in a row. Really no need for this extra layer of complexity my friend.

[GrudgeBringer]

Actually, that works real well (ABCD-DCBA). I am in 4 of those every year and I have found the best spot to be #2 (#4 in a 12 team draft). You still get a good nation on your first pick and another pretty good nation on the way back, with the almost identical level on your third pick.

1rst pick gets the 1-8-9-16-17 picks.

4th gets the 4-5-12-13-20 picks

So it really doesn't favor anyone in a team.

My opinion only:up:

[Septimius Severus]

Ok, I've received a ranked list of nations from chris' team.
I am awaiting a similar list of 12 or 13 nations from Executor and Psi's team.

While I enjoy these debates:

Bottom line people, as DrP pointed out in his PM, regardless of what method we choose, there is no way that I can see to guarantee that teams will get everything they want in their top choices regardless of who picks first or picks last.

Your best bet if you want to make sure your team gets a good mix of for example a researching nation, a military power, a stealth nation (if that is what your strategy entails) is to ensure that your ranked lists have more than one of these type of nations near the top of your list.

The nature of team games is compromise and cooperation, we can't make everyone on every team completely happy. The goal of this game is not winning, and is not intended for victory oriented players, hence why many vets are not attracted. It's nice but not the be all and end all.

The goal is rather the education of the noobs which comprise 50% of the players. The AI element, aside from it's thematic purpose, is intended not to provide any real challenge to the vets or intermediates but to allow the noobs to gain more experience versus the AI. As a bonus, the human team that takes an early lead versus the AI, will have an advantage going into the MP portion of the game.

Let's not get sidetracked, and not forget about having fun here.

Regarding the map: I hope you all have checked the map (you've had ample time to express any concerns) and don't have any issues with my placement. It is a small map and a cramped situation (NvV I deja vu). A very few starts are in provinces with terrain masks that include forest, swamp, and waste. However, I don't think this will be a significant economic detriment to anyone since the surrounding terrain types count more. If you have any issues with the proposed starts, speak your mind now.

Failing that, lets get it on, get going and see how this first game plays out.

Thanks.
Your humble and overworked admin.:D

[chrispedersen]

I am without power for 24 hours, and possibly longer.

[shard]

I've registered but I still haven't received a confirmation...?

[chrispedersen]

Back, with power.

[Hoplosternum]

I've registered but I still haven't received a confirmation...?

Same here

[Septimius Severus]

Hoplo, and Shard, both of your accounts are activated on the forums. In fact we've got 15 players from all 4 teams registered and activated. I assumed notification e-mails would be sent by default, but that may be something I have to configure. All in all I like the look, feel, and functionality of this new forum. What do the rest of you think?

[Maerlande]

So far it's working fine. Simple enough to use. Just as long as the admin doesn't read all forums ;)

[rdonj]

A bit weird getting used to after forumotion, but it works well enough.

[chrispedersen]

Nice logo Sept. Like the look of it.

[Maerlande]

Sept,

I was looking over the settings again. Would you consider BI resources instead of gold? I changed my single player to gold this week to try it out and it's pretty painful with astral nations using Enslave or lucky nations. But, no need to change if it's a problem. We'll just have to sacrifice those militias.

[melnorjr]

So far it's working fine. Simple enough to use. Just as long as the admin doesn't read all forums ;)

That's what I'm for. :)

then I'll just slip the info to sep...
oh wait, I'm not supposed to tell you that part :doh:

[Frozen Lama]

Sept,

We'll just have to sacrifice those militias.

are you entirely certain it sent your upkeep throught the roof? i've played an entire MP game with the BI money and resource mod, and no one ever complained of militia events bankrupting them. weird :confused:

[Maerlande]

My mistake. I reread the thread on BI. The milita from events are a different unit than those recruitable and the gold is disabled for the event ones. It must have just looked like a problem. I was using a lot of enslave mind and that has the possibility of gaining you some very high upkeep.

Doing the numbers the jump from 300 to 900 would make sense if I enslaved a single unit from a neutral which is likely because I was using reverse communions with yogis and gurus. 9000 gold in BI gives 600 upkeep each.

[Frozen Lama]

lol. note to self: do not use enslave spells on indies. :p

[Maerlande]

Zactly!

[PsiSoldier]

Ok, I have to appologize here, I PM'd Septimius (I think) but haven't heard back from him and thought I'd post in the thread so people know whats going on.

It looks like I may not have time for this game unfortunately thanks to a few separate events. First off you may have seen on the news that Atlanta Georgia has been hit pretty hard by a flood. Just check out Youtube and do a search for "Sixflags flooded" I live just about 10 mins from there (When traffic is normal) and I am currently working about 2 miles from there.

I have been transfered to this new job where we are working 12 hours 7 days a week and they are now talking about moving to 14 hours for a while because we lost a number of days when we just simply could not get to work at all because of the flood and are behind. And of course after that long day I have the fun of trying to get home when most of the roads that I normaly take are washed out and I do not know when they will be open again so it means everyone is now taking the same few roads that are open which were already normally fairly busy. And so now what should be a ten minute drive to and from work can take more like 2 hours on top of working 12 or 14 hours.

I just do not see how I will have time to devote to this game until things settle back down to normal. I'm sorry, but I just could not forsee something like my city getting flooded and the repercussions of such thing when I signed up for the game. If it was a non team game I might could pull it off but not something where I will have to sit down and cooridinate with other people and get everything planned out which would take significantly more time. I MIGHT could manage if I were not team leader and someone else took that responsibility but it is just not feasible for me to lead any kind of team right now and devote extra time to trying to strategize with other people..

The only good thing I can say about the whole situation is that I'm glad some of my family members were sick 2 weeks ago when I asked them if they wanted to go to sixflags and I was going to buy a season pass. :cool:

[rdonj]

I don't think anyone can fault you for pulling out. Well, I don't anyway. Natural disasters have a way of taking control out of one's hands.

[melnorjr]

That thing with your family members remind me of a story I heard.

There was a family of farmers in a small village in china centuries ago. They got a new horse, and their neighbor came by and said "you are so lucky!
The father of the family replied, "We'll see"

Well when the son was trying to break the horse he fell of and broke his leg. The neighbor heard and said "What bad luck!"
The father said to him "We'll see."

a few weeks later the army came by to conscript peasant for war. Well, the farmer's son had a broken leg, so they couldn't take him, and the father was too old and frail. The neighbor said to the father, "What luck!"
The father turned to him and said, "We'll see."

A few weeks later, an illness swept through the village. it only struck the young, and the farmer's son died. Most of the other young men were away at war, so were not harmed. At the funeral, the man's neighbor wondered aloud at the man's horrible luck.

So the man turned to him and said, "We'll see."

[ghoul31]

Was there a point to that story? We'll see.

[Septimius Severus]

Thanks for informing us Psi, I got your PM. I'll keep you in an alternate slot on your team for now. You can keep up with things either here or on the forums. Hope you get things straightened out.

Blesseds and all players, we need a new capt ASAP, let's get those invites and PMs out. We don't want a setback at this juncture. The Mysterios are currently composing their ranked list. I hope the Blessed Ones have had a chance to at least discuss their nation preferences.

For those unfamiliar with the BI mod, we are using the second variant of the 3 versions of the mod, the least drastic version and apparently the most problem free.

The good thing about the new forums, no ads, and not as funky as forummotion. The attachment functionality, while present, is not working. Support seems to have dried up as well but it should meet our needs for now. Not bad for the price.

[Frozen Lama]

So I'm just curious about when this is getting started. i know we need another captain, but also nothing seems to be happening on the team threads, or at least Executor hasn't said much about our picks. am i just missing something, or what. i'd like to get started soon

[Septimius Severus]

So I'm just curious about when this is getting started. i know we need another captain, but also nothing seems to be happening on the team threads, or at least Executor hasn't said much about our picks. am i just missing something, or what. i'd like to get started soon

It does seem to be quiet of late, on all the threads. Psi's dropping out of the captain's slot, means we need another experienced, confident player to take the captaincy of the Blessed Ones before we can really get moving.

I am frustrated that people are so quick to join these FFA and RAND type games that Pasha and others are starting, but no one seems to have the guts to take on a leadership role or the interest or time to invest in our team game.

A great deal of work has been put into this game and I'm not willing to have it go to waste. If I have to assume the role myself I will, but I depending on all of our players to assist me (so this won't be necessary) to fill this last slot so we can get things moving.

I am confident we will be moving soon, one way or another. Blesseds: Algae, viccio, Rabbit, have you guys been working on possible strategies, nation preferences? How is the search for a captain coming?

Sometimes people are just busy, or real life things come up, sometimes you really need to prod people to get them off their you know what and get moving. In the end, if you want things to happen, sometimes you just gotta make them happen! :up:

[rdonj]

I am frustrated that people are so quick to join these FFA and RAND type games that Pasha and others are starting, but no one seems to have the guts to take on a leadership role or the interest or time to invest in our team game.

A great deal of work has been put into this game and I'm not willing to have it go to waste. If I have to assume the role myself I will, but I depending on all of our players to assist me (so this won't be necessary) to fill this last slot so we can get things moving.

Team games DO take a lot of effort to coordinate. When we were doing NvV1, that game devoured every second of my free time. It can be a bit of a chore getting all that communication done each turn. The more experienced players tend to play very close to their limit in games already, and adding a bit time intensive team game on top of all that could easily be more than most people could handle. The job of a team captain on top of that, can really be quite stressful. So it takes a certain amount of dedication, not to mention free time, to really fill the job. Kind of like being an admin ;).

[Septimius Severus]

Speaking of making things happen, I want more alternates in this game.

Being an alternate is really a goodness and a blessing. Why you ask?


Doesn't require as large a time commitment as being in the starting lineup.



You are potentially able to play up to 4 nations, instead of being limited to just one.



You have access to the team forum and are privy to all team discussions.



A guaranteed position in the starting lineup of the next game in the series with first or second choice nation privileges and/or other bonuses.

When it comes right down to it, being an alternate is a great thing. I wish more game creators incorporated the idea and took the time to think ahead. So don't miss out, be an alternate today!

[Septimius Severus]

Team games DO take a lot of effort to coordinate. When we were doing NvV1, that game devoured every second of my free time. It can be a bit of a chore getting all that communication done each turn. The more experienced players tend to play very close to their limit in games already, and adding a bit time intensive team game on top of all that could easily be more than most people could handle. The job of a team captain on top of that, can really be quite stressful. So it takes a certain amount of dedication, not to mention free time, to really fill the job. Kind of like being an admin ;).

That is true, but the more FFA type games you join, the less time you will have to enjoy a team game. It seems many vets would rather join 5 FFA games, than 1 or 2 team games. It doesn't take that much time and effort and thought does it?

[chrispedersen]

why not just have two teams plus an ai team?

[Septimius Severus]

why not just have two teams plus an ai team?

Or three teams and one AI team (5x5x5x5) since we already have 3 captains.

Can be done. Will require some rearranging and rethinking of start locations.

I'll look into it and see what I can come up with.

That it should be necessary due to the inability to find a single player really ticks me off though.

[Hoplosternum]

Hi Sept,

Unfortunately there are far less Vets than there are Intermediates (or Noobs, or at least most Noobs would be interested while only some Vets would be that which comes to the same thing).

Plus it is potentially a lot of work for a Vet. I am not sure how the teams will work in practice. But some Vets may fear that they will need to spend a lot of time advising teammates on each turn. Or even worse giving lots of advice only to have it completely ignored!

As there are a lot of potential Intermediates you might want to have the fourth team have all Intermediates (as the Noobs are meant to be learning from Vets)? Or let there be two or three Intermediates and the rest Noobs but let the intermediates both choose their powers before the list system.

Also the AIs may have put some people off, especially the potential Vet players. And the AIs are not really central to the theme of this game.

Anyway Sept I hope you can get this one going.

[Illuminated One]

Well, I can be an alternate.
I can't play before the 7th though.

[AlgaeNymph]

I'm curious, what exactly are the responsibilities of a team captain?

[Septimius Severus]

Hoplo, thematically, it was actually the threat of these AIs (or unfeeling ones) that made noobs and vets (and intermediates) unite together into the mixed teams they now comprise. The combination of the BI mod, dastardly AI builds with deadly suprises courtesy of Gandalf, and 4 extra starting locations should at least make expansion a bit more difficult for the experienced players (rather than steamrolling weak indies like they are used to), while the corner AI starts will give the noobs a good chance to gain some AI/SP experience, which again is the reason I consider them important. Sorry if I come off as whiny, but really all we need is a single intermediate, with a semblance of guts, to fill a slot, and save me extra work having to come up with a new set of starting locations. My point is simply that, if you've got the time and dedication to participate in 5 or more FFA games, or spend larges amounts of time chatting it up on IRC, you should have the time and dedication for a single team game.

Algae, being a captain is nothing really. You get first nation choice and you become moderater of the team forum, not a big deal. You draw up the ranked list based on your teams preferences. You PM it to me. You work with your other teammates to defeat your enemies. Come now. I think people are so focused on winning, getting the RIGHT nations and other details, they forget about having fun. Throw your team together and lets mix it up. I promise I won't slap anyone in the face if their team loses. :doh::D:

No one should use the AI element as an excuse not to participate. Compstomping can be great fun, and in this game it is only the preliminary. And now I will get down from my noob soapbox.

Welcome back Illuminated, good to have you. I'm putting you on the Deva's, unless you've another preference.

[AlgaeNymph]

Algae, being a captain is nothing really.I'll take your your word for it, I'll be captain then. If nothing else, it'll give me something to put in my "Leadership" section of my eFolio.

I'll pick Vanhiem. Now what order are we going to make the rest of our picks in?

[Hoplosternum]

Algae, being a captain is nothing really.I'll take your your word for it, I'll be captain then. If nothing else, it'll give me something to put in my "Leadership" section of my eFolio.

I'll pick Vanhiem. Now what order are we going to make the rest of our picks in?

Great :clap:

And PS to Sept didn't mean to come off as criticising. I think it's a great idea of yours. Simply suggesting some reasons why not everyone might not like it....

[Septimius Severus]

Great :clap:

And PS to Sept didn't mean to come off as criticising. I think it's a great idea of yours. Simply suggesting some reasons why not everyone might not like it....
No, your not coming off as criticising. I am aware of all of these objections to my idea. And the objections to team games in general (too much trouble coordinating, dealing with others, lots of back and forth and debates, depending on other people, etc.) add to this the fact that the game mechanism doesn't really support the concept well. Some may see the presence of the AIs as unnecessary regardless of my stated purpose.

I am hoping the presence of the AIs will at least slow down, what would otherwise be a very rapid expansion phase and make things a bit more interesting, as opposed to just turning up indy strength which might cause problems for noobs.

On the other hand, it might bog the game down and make things unfun. Especially if the noobs can't make any headway against them. This is where tips from the captains may come in handy.

We won't know till we play, what is going to happen.

[Septimius Severus]

Algae, being a captain is nothing really.I'll take your your word for it, I'll be captain then. If nothing else, it'll give me something to put in my "Leadership" section of my eFolio.

I'll pick Vanhiem. Now what order are we going to make the rest of our picks in?

Algae, I'm glad that you have decided to take up the mantle of leadership. I was getting ready to redefine the start locations to accommodate 3 human+1 AI team (probably 1 team in each corner). But this announcement saves me the time and trouble.

We now need to switch in one of the alternates. Some of whom may have privy information they need to "forget". To fill the empty slot on your team that would normally be filled by an intermediate level player. I'll need to hear from either Immaculate, Illuminated One, PsiSoldier, or Shard, whoever is ready to go. Either that or wait for another player. I'll PM them to see. Whoever responds affirmatively first will take the spot.

We can now finish our 12 nation ranked lists (this should be enough to complete the process with 4 teams).

I will resolve using the two methods I described earlier and post the results. Whichever method is satisfactory to the majority of the team captains will prevail.

If team captains want, they may decide whether they are A, B, C, or D for the purposes of assignment from the lists as opposed to the rand method, but anything more complex is unnecessary fuss. If this be the case, then the Deva's have already claimed D, and chris has indicated C. This leaves A or B for yourself and Executor.

So lets get this on and start to have some fun then.

[Agema]

Hi, I got one of the requests for assistance. I'll fill in a spot if required.

I've got about 10 MP games under my belt, and I'd say I'm a pretty handy player, around the upper regions of intermediate to lower reaches of veteran.

[Executor]

People, I think I'll have to drop this game, in fact, I'll probably have to Dominions all together, I'm the phase of moving and currently I practically have no internet access.
I have no idea if I'll settle in a week or a month, or if I'll have reliable internet access even when I finally move.

[Septimius Severus]

People, I think I'll have to drop this game, in fact, I'll probably have to Dominions all together, I'm the phase of moving and currently I practically have no internet access.
I have no idea if I'll settle in a week or a month, or if I'll have reliable internet access even when I finally move.

I've been wondering why we hadn't heard from you in awhile. Sorry to lose you. Luckily, Agema, has arrived, and will hopefully be able to take your place on The Mysterios team.

[Septimius Severus]

Hi, I got one of the requests for assistance. I'll fill in a spot if required.

I've got about 10 MP games under my belt, and I'd say I'm a pretty handy player, around the upper regions of intermediate to lower reaches of veteran.

Welcome, Agema. Upper intermediate, to lower veteran. That is good. Your timing is good. As a slot has opened up in the starting lineup for the Mysterios as captain. Please go to the team forums and register here:

http://noobsvets.silverforum.net/

You can then get yourself up-to-date by reading the messages on the Mysterios team forum. We are in the process of finishing up our ranked list for the nation selection process. As captain you have first nation choice, you may either keep Lanka or choose another nation, before the rest of us pick.

Immaculate, I've received your response, your heading over to The Blessed Ones to fill Algae's spot. Good luck, and remember you know nothing of our plans. :) Psi, will remain on your team as an alternate and to assist you guys.

Hunt11, you're account has now been activated, you should now be able to log in and access your team's forum using your regular username.

[Agema]

I'll stick with Lanka, thanks.

[DrPraetorious]

So are we ready to finalize nation selection? Attrition is going to rise if we don't start soon, folks...

[AlgaeNymph]

All the captains are in place, so it's time to strategize in the NvV forums (http://noobsvets.silverforum.net/viewforum.php?f=1).

[Septimius Severus]

I don't think anyone was expecting what occurred with Executor and perhaps with Psi. Nothing can be done. But make sure your team has alternates, that is something you CAN do.

I am awaiting submission from Agema and Algae of their team's 12 nation ranked list chosen from among the 17 land nations still available. Agema need only post on our forum what our list will be, I'll need a PM from Algae though.

Once this is done, I will resolve and post the results. Team captains will then assign nations to their individual players and inform me of who is playing who. Then Gandalf can perform his wizardry, pretenders can be designed, the game can be created on llamaserver, and pretender uploads may begin.

I know it has been struggle, many of us are familiar with the time these things can take and I'm glad to see people taking it in stride. It looks like we are finally on our way though.

For the benefit of Agema and perhaps Algae, regarding the nation resolution process:
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showpost.php?p=711783&postcount=134
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showpost.php?p=711852&postcount=141

[Septimius Severus]

List received from Algae for The Blessed Ones.

[Tam-Lin]

Are you still looking for alternates? I'd be interested as a new player.

[Septimius Severus]

Are you still looking for alternates? I'd be interested as a new player.

Yes, we are, welcome aboard. Check the opening post for info on the teams, if you have a team preference let me know, otherwise I'll assign you to my team, The Mysterios.

[sum1lost]

I'd be happy to be an alt.

[Septimius Severus]

I'd be happy to be an alt.
Welcome. I'm putting you on the Mysterios team for now unless you've a preference otherwise.

[Septimius Severus]

Team nation assignments via dual methods will be posted very shortly. If any team wishes to resubmit a revised ranked list now is the time to do so. Once nations are resolved to teams, no changes will be allowed except via first come first serve swap for unassigned nations. I expect we will be able to move into the pretender design/AI creation phase by the time the weekend rolls around if all goes well.

[AlgaeNymph]

If any team wishes to resubmit a revised ranked list now is the time to do so.You read the admin, now's the time to give me suggestions (in the team forums).

[Septimius Severus]

We've got 3 alternate slots still available for anyone else still interested in getting in on this game.

For the Mysterios, Agema, is back on top of things, so our nation list will be ready to go soon.

After (to avoid any more delays) team nation assignments have been completed, I am considering granting the teams led by Agema and Algae the optional right to retain a veteran in a non-participatory (non-alternate) role as "technical" advisor ;) to compensate for the experience levels of Drp and Chris and to give them an added measure of confidence going forward. The advisor will basically have access to their team's forum and will be able to answer any questions put to them.
*Note: They will just function in an advisory role and will not displace/replace the team captains rights or responsibilities for setting overall strategy.

I trust their will be no objections from DrP and Chris on this, but if there are, I will nix the idea.:D

For future games:

Since we've had such a hard time getting highly experienced/top vets to join as team captains in this game, I might incorporate this advisor type role in the next game in the series (for all teams) should it turn out to be feasable.

The bonus of this approach is that we can proceed with only intermediates and noobs on the teams, and vets can participate with minimal time commitment and without having to shoulder any responsibilities.

Thanks.

[AlgaeNymph]

I am considering granting the teams led by Agema and Algae the optional right to retain a veteran in a non-participatory (non-alternate) role as "technical" advisor ;).Thanks. :D

All right, noobs, I'm sending the revised pick list tomorrow morning so post your suggestions in the team forum.

[Septimius Severus]

Here are the ranked lists from each team in the interests of full disclosure (minus any nations already claimed):


<table width="100%" border="1" bordercolor="#000000" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0"> <col width="64*"> <col width="64*"> <col width="64*"> <col width="64*"> <tbody><tr valign="TOP"> <td width="25%"> The Mysterios

1. Fomoria
2. Kailasa
3. Helheim
4. Tir Na nOg
5. Yomi
6. Arcoscephale
7. Tien Chi
8. Abysia
9. Pangaea
10. Marverni
11. Agartha
12. Caelum

</td> <td width="25%"> Deva's Darlings

1. Hinnom
2. Ulm
3. Ermor
4. Sauromatia
5. Fomoria
6. Caelum
7. Yomi
8. T'ien Ch'i
9. Abysia
10. Arcoscephale
11. Helheim
12. Kailasa
13. Agartha

</td> <td width="25%"> The Blessed Ones

1. Helheim
2. Tir na Nog
3. T'ien C'hi
4. Caelum
5. Sauromatia
6. Marverni
7. Arcocephale
8. Ermor
9. Ulm
10. Yomi
11. Hinnom
12. Abysia
13. Kaliasa
14. C'tis
15. Fomoria

</td> <td width="25%"> Noobheim

1. Sauromatia
2. Hinnom
3. Formoria
4. Arco
5. Ermor
6. Ctis
7. Caelum
8. Abysia
10. Kailasa
11. Pangaea
12. Tien Chi
13. Tir na Nog
14. Ulm
15. Yomi
16. Marverni
17. Agartha
</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
Results:

<table width="100%" border="1" bordercolor="#000000" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0"> <col width="124*"> <col width="132*"> <tbody><tr valign="TOP"> <td width="48%"> Method 1 (uncontested top picks)
My original method
</td> <td width="52%"> Method 2 (ABCDDCBAABCD) Rand
Grudgebringer's ordering method </td> </tr> <tr valign="TOP"> <td width="48%"> The Mysterios
Fomoria
Kailasa
Yomi

Deva's Darlings
Hinnom
Ulm
Ermor

The Blessed Ones
Helheim
Tir na nog
T'ien Chi'

Noobheim
Sauromatia
Arco
C'tis

Unassigned land nations (available via swap on first come first serve basis)

Abysia
Pangaea
Marverni
Agartha
Caelum
</td> <td width="52%"> The Mysterios (Team D)
Fomoria
Kailasa
Yomi

Deva's Darlings (Team C)
Hinnom
Ulm
Caelum

The Blessed Ones (Team A)
Helheim
Tir na nog
T'ien Chi'

Noobheim (Team B)
Sauromatia
Arco
Ermor

Unassigned land nations (available via swap on first come first serve basis)

Abysia
Pangaea
Marverni
Agartha
C'tis
</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
Admin's commentary:

There was enough variety in the topmost picks of most of the teams that the top 2 results were identical regardless of the method used.

Chris' ordering method (ABCDDCBADCBA) produced the exact same result as method 1 so Grudgebringer's ordering method (ABCDDCBAABCD) was substituted in method 2. The only difference is with the 3rd picks of the Deva's and Noobheim and a slight difference in the unassigned nations.

Team captains choose your poison: method 1 or method 2. Majority decides, then its first come/first serve swaps depending upon the method you choose. After that assign your nations to your team members and tell me who's playing who so I can update the opening post.

Thanks.

[chrispedersen]

Under Method 1:

Team A: Got its 1, 2nd, and 5th pick
Team B: 1, 2, 3
Team C: 1, 2, 3.
Team D: 1, 4, 6.



Under Method 2
Team A: 1, 2, 5
Team B: 1, 2, 6
Team C: 1, 2, 3
Team D: 1, 4, 5


Since every team got its first and second pick except my own, I'd like to suggest that method 2 is a little fairer.

[pyg]

I don't quite have our captain's approval yet but Deva's Darlings would like to swap out one of our nations for Pangaea. The nation we are swapping for depends on which selection method we are going with.

[DrPraetorious]

That's fine. I'm surprised Pangaea didn't go in early draft. That said, we'll take Hinnom+Ulm+Pangaea, whichever selection method is used :).

[AnimateDream]

If alts are still wanted I'd like to throw my hat in. I've played tons of SP but only a couple MP.

[Septimius Severus]

That's fine. I'm surprised Pangaea didn't go in early draft. That said, we'll take Hinnom+Ulm+Pangaea, whichever selection method is used :).

Captains, pick either method 1 or method 2 first. Once that is decided you can post your swap requests. Let's keep this orderly.

Drp, method 1 or method 2? I know it doesn't make much difference in terms of your assignments but there is a difference in the unassigned pool.

Chris says method 2, do you agree?

Algae method 1 or 2?

Agema method 1 or 2?

Seems the Deva's will be a giant powerhouse. I frankly don't know why other team captains didn't grab Hinnom using their first choice priviledge. I guess Hinnom and Niefel aren't so hot.

Ok, you guys know what you need to do, lets get going.

[Septimius Severus]

If alts are still wanted I'd like to throw my hat in. I've played tons of SP but only a couple MP.

Welcome aboard, I'm assigning you to Noobheim, unless you've a preference otherwise. The Mysterios team is full.

2 alternate slots still available!

[chrispedersen]

Happy to have him...

SS - I took DrP's comment as method 2 was fine, and then he'd like to switch to Pangeaa.

[AnimateDream]

Great. I just signed up for the Noobs & Vets Team HQ board as well whenever i get mod approval. Out of curiosity what kind of ai mods are being used?

[Hoplosternum]

Gandalf is going to design the AI pretenders and I think going to give them some starting stuff via map commands (not sure of this though). We are also using the Better Independents - gold mod. This makes some of the less useful (but loved by the AI) independent troops very expensive. This stops the AI (and humans!) building lots of militia etc. So they build their own better national troops instead and this makes them tougher opponents.

[Agema]

I'd prefer the more equitable distribution of the 2nd method, as CP's team is very badly favoured compared to others by the 1st method.

[DrPraetorious]

2nd method.

[chrispedersen]

SS - Can we have the starting locations determined? I had previously preferred blue, but we need to know starting placements to optimize pretender designs.

Also, if someone could approve Animate, we'd like to start including him in our discussions.

[melnorjr]

Animate is approved. Just got the e-mail that he'd registered when I woke up(yeah, I sleep in, Saturdays). (lucky! that could technically be considered work(since it's productive), and normally I don't do work on saturdays.)

and the reason that hinnon wasn't higher on everyone's list was that basically everyone predicted they would be picked before they got a chance, so didn't bother.(I'm following the team forums)

[Maerlande]

Hi folks,

I built a version of the map for this game with custom AI gods from SemiRandom, fixed starts based on the teams using method 2 above, and the extra starts for the AI's in the corners. I built it to test pretender designs and strategies. I discovered a problem.

Formoria won't start in the fixed location. Every time I started a game Formoria's start changed at random.

I reviewed the map commands with folks on IRC and it was suggested that Formoria requires a coast for it's start. Therefore, I edited one province beside Formoria's designated start as sea. That fixed the problem. So it looks like Sept or Gandalf will have to keep in mind that Formoria needs one sea. By the way, freshwater (lake) didn't work.

[Septimius Severus]

3 of our 4 votes for method 2 is a majority. We are going with method 2 on the team nation assignments.

Captains may now OFFICIALLY put in their swap requests, first come, first served.

Chris, actual human team placement is planned to be done by a third party (most likely Gandalf if I can get him to do it, if not then by someone else not actively involved in the game).

This is done on purpose so that so no team will know which of the starting zones they are in (blue, white, red, etc). You will know the starts (they are listed on the doc file) but you will not know which team occupies them.

However, team captains will have the right to decide which of their nations will be placed in the two forward/center positions and which two will be placed in the rear/flank. This is all spelled out in the opening post btw. The default is the top 2 players on each team's player list (vet captain, and intermediate) in the forward positions, if you or anyone else prefers another arrangement, PM me.

Melnorjr, your right, they probably thought everyone else was going to grab hinnom, but why did'nt the other team captains do as DrP did and grab Neifel or Hinnom? Hmmm.

[Septimius Severus]

Hi folks,

I built a version of the map for this game with custom AI gods from SemiRandom, fixed starts based on the teams using method 2 above, and the extra starts for the AI's in the corners. I built it to test pretender designs and strategies. I discovered a problem.

Formoria won't start in the fixed location. Every time I started a game Formoria's start changed at random.

I reviewed the map commands with folks on IRC and it was suggested that Formoria requires a coast for it's start. Therefore, I edited one province beside Formoria's designated start as sea. That fixed the problem. So it looks like Sept or Gandalf will have to keep in mind that Formoria needs one sea. By the way, freshwater (lake) didn't work.

This seems very odd. Did you use the option 1 or option 2 starting locations? I am going to contact Gandalf on this, maybe he knows more and see what can be done. Hopefully, this was just some quirk. Does anyone else know about Formoria requiring a coastal start?

[Frozen Lama]

Yes, i know for a fact that they require a coast start. just like LA Mari

it has to do with the whole sailing thematicness of the nation

[Septimius Severus]

Hmm, this could be an issue, if it can not be fixed by using a different terrain mask for either their start or a neighboring province (Maerlande have you tried applying a fresh water or swamp terrain mask to their start or a neighboring province?) or some other .map file adjustment, the mysterios will probably need to swap for Pangaea, Abysia or some other nation. If vanheim starts no problem, wonder why fomoria won't.

[Maerlande]

Yes Sept,

I tried freshwater and it failed. Sea worked. I didn't try deep sea. I simply changed the mask. I did not make any changes to the map picture, just the mask.

[Septimius Severus]

Well then, unless Gandalf, Ballbarian, or another expert knows of another way to adjust this via .map file wherever Formoria may start (maybe their is a terrain mask for coastal that is not listed in the mapedit documentation). We've got two options:

1. We can change the terrain mask of a neighboring province wherever Formoria starts to sea, it wouldn't look correct, but it is only a single province out of 240.

2. The Mysterios will need to swap for another nation. In which case they would receive priority for swaps since this issue was unknown to us.

At this stage I don't have time to generate another map with water and redefine starting locations.

So hold off on the swaps, till we decide this. I am fine either way, but Agema's choice will carry alot of weight here. As will the input of any experts.

Thanks for bringing this to my attention Maerlande.

[pyg]

1. We can change the terrain mask of a neighboring province wherever Formoria starts to sea, it wouldn't look correct, but it is only a single province out of 240.


It would be a simple task to change the .tga to make a single province look sea like. I volunteer.

Fomoria's unique starting requirements are going to make it more findable even if the .tga is unchanged. We all know where the starts are anyway so I don't see this as a big deal.

[Septimius Severus]

1. We can change the terrain mask of a neighboring province wherever Formoria starts to sea, it wouldn't look correct, but it is only a single province out of 240.


It would be a simple task to change the .tga to make a single province look sea like. I volunteer.

Fomoria's unique starting requirements are going to make it more findable even if the .tga is unchanged. We all know where the starts are anyway so I don't see this as a big deal.

Yes, that could be done, if someone wanted to bother who's not participating in the game. It's only a cosmetic issue (though it may have some economic effects if Formoria's cap fort will not be able to draw income or their income would be reduced from a neighboring sea province, in which case we'd need to add an additional neighbor to compensate).

But Agema may decide he would simply rather swap.

I'm curious, what unique starting requirements will make them more findable other than altering the .rgb file to include something that would certainly point out their location? We will know that by default the #1 and #2 players will be placed forward, and we will know the starts, but we will not know which team is placed north, south, east, or west of the AI center. That is the way I'd like to keep it. :)

[pyg]

I'm curious, what unique starting requirements will make them more findable other than altering the .rgb file to include something that would certainly point out their location?

You can see the terrain of all the provinces. Just look around the starting locations for a sea.

Really, by turn 5 I expect my team to know who and where all our opponents are (and probably who is playing who). Knowing where Fomoria is before the first turn isn't going to change things all that much.

[rdonj]

I'm curious, what unique starting requirements will make them more findable other than altering the .rgb file to include something that would certainly point out their location? We will know that by default the #1 and #2 players will be placed forward, and we will know the starts, but we will not know which team is placed north, south, east, or west of the AI center. That is the way I'd like to keep it. :)

By making a map with pre-set start locations, any player whose start location is specifically set is easily able to be found simply by reding the .map file, or by loading up a game with all players set as human. There's no way you can avoid that afaik.

[Septimius Severus]

I'm curious, what unique starting requirements will make them more findable other than altering the .rgb file to include something that would certainly point out their location? We will know that by default the #1 and #2 players will be placed forward, and we will know the starts, but we will not know which team is placed north, south, east, or west of the AI center. That is the way I'd like to keep it. :)

By making a map with pre-set start locations, any player whose start location is specifically set is easily able to be found simply by reding the .map file, or by loading up a game with all players set as human. There's no way you can avoid that afaik.

Reading the map file? Remember, only the server will have the copy with the specstarts not the players. So they won't have advance knowledge of which individual nation is in each start except via the default placement mentioned.

Pyg, your right, a player could right-click around all the other starting locations till he sees a land province with a sea terrain icon, but it'd be less conspicuous than a single sea looking province in the midst of a completely land map.

If one of us can't do it or wants to do it, I've got you down as volunteering. I want to thank you anyway. It would mean everyone re-downloading the map however. Now lets hear from Agema, regarding whether he's keeping Fomoria or we remove it from the running. He can certainly keep it, since it's not a game breaker, just a minor nuisance. But I don't know enough about any possible economic side effects of a neigboring sea province to tell him to do one thing or the other.

I just did some of my own quick tests and yep, Formoria won't hold a specstart, but they will start fine randomly on land provinces without any sea neighbors. Weird.

[Frozen Lama]

the "economic" downside to having one sea neighbor is pretty negligible. i say lets just get on with the game please.

[Septimius Severus]

the "economic" downside to having one sea neighbor is pretty negligible. i say lets just get on with the game please.

Amen brother! And you and Maerlande are on my team, so I guess if Maerlande feels the same, 3 votes outweighs waiting for our captain's decision.

We keep Formoria.

Let the swaps begin OFFICIALLY then huh?.:up::D

[Frozen Lama]

can i officially ask to swap Yomi for Caelum? Agema isn't on enough to be reliable.

[Septimius Severus]

can i officially ask to swap Yomi for Caelum? Agema isn't on enough to be reliable.

Why yes, you may.:D I won't make players wait for the captains, though it is recommended that players at least get the consensus of their team mates.

Wait, though, we are using method 2. So caelum is not up for grabs unless the Deva's officially drop it (now that I've announced that swaps may begin and we have *settled* the issue with Formoria).

Currently available:

Abysia
Pangaea
Marverni
Agartha
C'tis

[Frozen Lama]

ok, pangea then. btw, i'm assuming that you will be playing Formoria sept?

[Septimius Severus]

ok, pangea then. btw, i'm assuming that you will be playing Formoria sept?

Pangaea you may have. Yomi is now up for grabs.

I shall take whatever my great captain gives me (and whatever others on our team don't want). He is still our captain (forgive me players). Maybe you need to speak with Agema about your taking over the captaincy. It's almost mutiny.:shock:

Currently available:

Abysia
Marverni
Agartha
C'tis
Yomi

[DrPraetorious]

Okay - actually, we already asked to trade Caelum for Pangaea?!?!?!

As I said repeatedly? I appreciate that it's first-come-first-served, but we made this request twice already while we were heeing and hawing over a tie-breaking procedure that had no effect on this.... pyg21 has already been testing Pangaea builds...

[Maerlande]

No wait, misunderstanding Dr.P. We would PREFER Caelum. I'm sure FL agrees. So you picking Pangaea is good by us.

[chrispedersen]

Melnorjr, your right, they probably thought everyone else was going to grab hinnom, but why did'nt the other team captains do as DrP did and grab Neifel or Hinnom? Hmmm.

One reason only: At the time I stated prefernce, Executor was in the game, whom I consider to be the finest Mictlan player around.

As for the pic choices - I knew you had me picking last in at least one of the methods - so there was zero chance it would be available. Better to get one good nation, than an almost impossible chance on a great one.

[DrPraetorious]

Ah, okay, then everything is cool, we get Pangaea and whoever wants Caelum can have Caelum?

[AlgaeNymph]

Algae, method 1 or 2?It's moot now but I'm okay with either method.

(I forget to click on one auto-message link and I miss 5 pages? :shock:)

[Septimius Severus]

There was a misunderstanding on Drp and Pyg's part, I wanted the method picked first before any swaps started. They jumped right in before the majority had voted for method 2. Was trying to keep a semblance of order. Perhaps I should have been clearer. No problem though.

Ok, a swap between teams, Deva's get Pangaea, and The Mysterios get Caelum, that leaves the following nations still available from the unassigned pool if anyone else wishes to swap:

Abysia
Marverni
Agartha
C'tis
Yomi

Here's the team nation assignments so far:

The Mysterios

Lanka
Fomoria
Kailasa
Caelum

Deva's Darlings

Neifelheim
Hinnom
Ulm
Pangaea

The Blessed Ones

Vanheim
Helheim
Tir na nog
T'ien Chi'

Noobheim

Mictlan
Sauromatia
Arco
Ermor

[Septimius Severus]

Melnorjr, your right, they probably thought everyone else was going to grab hinnom, but why did'nt the other team captains do as DrP did and grab Neifel or Hinnom? Hmmm.

One reason only: At the time I stated prefernce, Executor was in the game, whom I consider to be the finest Mictlan player around.


Heh, well, you could have changed your preference once Executor left and before the rest of the nations were selected. :)

OK, everyone, let me know if there are any more swap requests, if not then we will move on to:

1. Team Captains assign nations to their members
2. Post who is playing what nation (so I can update the opening post and the .map file)
3. Design your pretenders
4. Gandalf's wizardry

[DrPraetorious]

pyg is playing Pangaea
ghoul21 is playing Hinnom
rdonj is playing Ulm
I am playing Niefelheim

[chrispedersen]

Grudge is playing Arco
Hop is playing Sauro
Hunt is playing ermor
chris is playing mictlan

[chrispedersen]

Heh, well, you could have changed your preference once Executor left and before the rest of the nations were selected. :)



I did not know that.

Hey guys, Grudge is unable to post in the forums. Could you check that all his settings are right?

[Septimius Severus]

Heh, well, you could have changed your preference once Executor left and before the rest of the nations were selected. :)



I did not know that.

Hey guys, Grudge is unable to post in the forums. Could you check that all his settings are right?

I will check on it.

Now just my team and Algae need to report who's playing who. Any more swap requests?

Before you design your pretenders take note:

Given we are using option 1 starts and given the relative short distances involved I think it best to implement a 5 turn hands off capitals rule, like we did in NvV3. I want to give the AI at least a little breathing room.

The Neutral Ground forums can be used for coordinating attacks on the AI. A good idea may be to create threads for each AI nation, once we know which 4 Gandalf will use.

[Agema]

Agema, Lanka
Frozen Lama, Caelum
Septimius Severus, Fomoria
Maerlande, Kailasa

* * *

My access is generally once per day, and it looks like you need to get stuff organised faster than I'm always going to be able to respond to. Consequently, we've had a chat at Mysterio HQ and Frozen Lama will be a better choice for running our team's day-to-day decision making. I'll act as the team's vet for strategy & advice, but not carry executive power.

[AlgaeNymph]

Now just my team and Algae need to report who's playing who.AlgaeNymph: Vanheim
vicco: Helheim
Immaculate: Tir'na'Nog
RabbitDynamite: T'ien C'hi

[chrispedersen]

Given we are using option 1 starts and given the relative short distances involved I think it best to implement a 5 turn hands off capitals rule, like we did in NvV3. I want to give the AI at least a little breathing room.

I would like to ask that we do not implement this rule, as this decision was not announced prior to nation selection and is hugely material to team Noobheim.

[rdonj]

By the way, could we please have the first post updated to show the nations each player is using? It's getting a bit of a hassle checking the 20th page every time I want to see what nations the other teams have :).

[Septimius Severus]

Given we are using option 1 starts and given the relative short distances involved I think it best to implement a 5 turn hands off capitals rule, like we did in NvV3. I want to give the AI at least a little breathing room.

I would like to ask that we do not implement this rule, as this decision was not announced prior to nation selection and is hugely material to team Noobheim.

I am of course concerned about human players taking flying SC pretenders and heading straight for the comps capitals, I do want to give them at least a fighting chance, 5 turns is nothing and you've plenty of time to design your gods while we wait for Gandalf. But I'll hear other opinions from other players, especially team captains on this matter. The distance is rather short between team caps as well, a flying SC pretender could make it in short order.

Chris, I've checked Grudge's account, see nothing out of the ordinary, and show him with 1 post already. I'll contact Grudge and see if we can work out exactly what the problem is.

[Septimius Severus]

My access is generally once per day, and it looks like you need to get stuff organised faster than I'm always going to be able to respond to. Consequently, we've had a chat at Mysterio HQ and Frozen Lama will be a better choice for running our team's day-to-day decision making. I'll act as the team's vet for strategy & advice, but not carry executive power.

Agema, I think we are over the early hump as far as decision making goes, so you can probably remain as captain at least for now. It is your choice though.

[Septimius Severus]

By the way, could we please have the first post updated to show the nations each player is using? It's getting a bit of a hassle checking the 20th page every time I want to see what nations the other teams have :).

Done.

Swaps are complete.

Design your pretenders, discuss your strategies while I contact Gandalf with instructions.

[DrPraetorious]

With four players on each team, and each team equal numbers, I don't think capital-kamikaze is broken. If people want to try it, go ahead - I don't think it's a cost-effective strategy, but I think it should be allowed.

Now, if we want a hands-off vs. the CPU opponents in the middle, that's different. I'd support a no-attacking-the-AI-until-turn-6 rule.

[chrispedersen]

Given we are using option 1 starts and given the relative short distances involved I think it best to implement a 5 turn hands off capitals rule, like we did in NvV3. I want to give the AI at least a little breathing room.

I would like to ask that we do not implement this rule, as this decision was not announced prior to nation selection and is hugely material to team Noobheim.

I am of course concerned about human players taking flying SC pretenders and heading straight for the comps capitals, I do want to give them at least a fighting chance, 5 turns is nothing and you've plenty of time to design your gods while we wait for Gandalf. But I'll hear other opinions from other players, especially team captains on this matter. The distance is rather short between team caps as well, a flying SC pretender could make it in short order.

Chris, I've checked Grudge's account, see nothing out of the ordinary, and show him with 1 post already. I'll contact Grudge and see if we can work out exactly what the problem is.


One of the only slight disadvantages giants (Formoria, Hinnom, Niefleheim) have is high cost units. The only hope of lesser races to compensate is to grab territory very quickly.

So again I'd like to say again, since it wasan't said before the nation picks, please don't impose a true period afterwards.

Also, on the matters of swaps, I still haven't heard from one player, so much as I know we want to move this along, I'd like to discuss with all my players the swap options.

[Makinus]

If there are any slots still open (even alternate ones) i would like to candidate myself as noob....

[chrispedersen]

By the way, could we please have the first post updated to show the nations each player is using? It's getting a bit of a hassle checking the 20th page every time I want to see what nations the other teams have :).

Done.

Swaps are complete.

Design your pretenders, discuss your strategies while I contact Gandalf with instructions.

Swaps are done? Hell, I haven't even heard from half my team!

Also, can I ask you to *please* not keep changing the rules of the game? I can't hear from my team enough for rules changes or first come first serve things.

For example the first time swapping was mentioned was 10-1. Which was after national selections were already in. And after we had agreed on a way of picking nations.

Suppose by a fluke, no one had chosen Hinnom. Would it then be a good idea to let first come first serve pick Hinnom? Originally we had a *lot* of discussion about letting the AI's get *good* nations.

So I don't really agree with swaps - but ok. Lets try to deal with it - And then swaps are done before I've even heard from half my team! Truces imposed! ARG.

I'd really like to ask that we stick to the original agreement. No swapping, no truces.