Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI. Game Over. Supplicants Triumph!

[ano]

Not only that .. I haven't gotten a turn.
What do you mean? Connect to the server and download it. If email notifications are not set up by Gandalf for your email address which I doubt.

[ano]

As Septimius didn't appear since morning and considering the fact that situation is undecided and neither we nor Usurpers (and Atlantis) are waiting for him and not doing our turns, I ask that not 24 but 36h are added to the current turn if the rehost is still not considered (although the absolute majority wants it, not even speaking of game relative power, just quantity of people)

[Septimius Severus]

My position on the no rollback policy remains the same (would not change even if we all staled). Though I am sympathetic to Numahr, that is what the decision was.

Very simply though, I can only convey my understanding of how delays are handled via direct connect on Gandalf's server. It is an entirely manual process and I have no direct control of the server:

1. I receive a request from a player asking for a delay with enough lead time to allow me to receive the message and convey it to Gandalf (generally you'll want to allow something like 8 hours or more).

2. I convey the request asking for x hours to be added to the current turn to Gandalf.

3. Gandalf must then receive the message in time and then shut down the game. So if he gets a request for say an 8 hour delay, at the 40th hour of a 48 hour turn, the game must be stopped, the interval adjusted temporarily to 16 hours (8 hours left+8 hours added) and then the game is restarted.

4. After the turn hosts, the external timer will still show only 16 hours . So as soon as he is able to get to it, he must then adjust the timer back to 48 hours or whatever the current interval is. Gandalf's least complicated move would be to just reset it to the current interval (but this will of course result in extra time added to the game turn since there will generally be some time elapsed between when the game hosted and when he can get to it). To account for that time, he'd have to again adjust the timer downward, then wait for the next host, and adjust again, etc.

Now why Gandalf didn't get a chance to adjust the timer down to reflect the additional 8 hours and only the additional 8 hours (not an extra 48), I cannot tell you. But when I noticed it (Ano did as well, as I am sure every else looking at it did) I sent word to Gandalf to use the fatherland file timestamp and count 56 hours from then and adjust the timer accordingly.

In any event, the first delay request (for 8 hours) WAS honored. Gandalf says he did not receive another delay request in time to prevent a stale. And another 4 hours past the hosting time went by before the actual host. That is all I can and will say about it. Gandalf would really be able to tell you more.

I really am against further delays on the current turn at this point, but if absolutely necessary I will consider it. Because of this process, the game time will NOT be accurate when delays are processed. I do recall my mentioning some of my concerns with publishing an external timer. I don't really like it for direct connect games. The game already has a lenient hosting schedule to taking into account the team nature of the game. But even so, things are moving far to slow for my tastes. But that is only my opinion.

[ano]

This is unwise and unpleasant and will make the game much less fun from now on. At least for me. I'm really losing enthusiasm now. I'm sure the Usurpers may say the same.
But so be it, you are the emperor here and there's no democracy so we have to accept your decision. But we definitely want the delay I previously mentioned. 24h will be enough for us (Supplicants).

Actually, I said all I had to say above and I have nothing more to add. I'm just very surprised with such a stubbornness from admin side after the situation that was caused by improper admin actions. That is hard to understand especially considering the fact that most players are agree to rehost the turn.

But... Enough. I just made the conclusions I had to make.

p.s.
Very simply though, I can only convey my understanding of how delays are handled via direct connect on Gandalf's server. It is an entirely manual process and I have no direct control of the server
...
If you said this BEFORE this weird situation occurred, it could be understood. But you prefer to keep secret from the players. In everything. So explaining this now doesn't help the situation at all and doesn't help numahr who had no idea of this.

It should have been obvious that those extra 48 hours were far too long when only 8 hours was requested.
Maybe it should. Or maybe it shouldn't. People are used to trust the server because if server time may be changed occasionally then who should they trust? If server says 48h it means 48h. At least for people who play at llamaserver. And if 48h means 8h then each and every player who might have no time to monitor the game thread extensively should be privately notified of this. This is what the job of admin lies in. Not just keeping secret...

Well, once again. Enough. I'll try to keep silence on his point from now on.

[Septimius Severus]

Yes, I am aware I have to be a go-between between Gandalf who runs the server and players. I made the decision in consultation with Gandalf. The limitations of Gandalf's server are not my fault. I was rather pissed when I saw the extra 48 hours. But we are at the mercy of the server, Gandalf's math, his availability, and so on. Even still, I have to say I commend Gandalf for doing the best he can and giving us whatever we get. I am grateful for it, he's doing it for free and all voluntarily. It is not an entitlement. I can only tell you what I know. If it villifies me, oh well. That is the burden of admin that I have to take. Call me stubborn, perhaps, but I am not about to get into another roll back fest like last game. Too much time has already been wasted in my opinion, I'd like to get on with my turns (Agartha is just hitting its stride), but you are free to do as you wish.

[Septimius Severus]

When I add fresh water tags they show up... Also.. I've looked at all 35 mountain provinces I have access to .. and found 1 mountain.

This hardly sounds like the change I requested.

Chris, this really does not sound right. Why would you see only 1 mountain province? Why would I see these and not you?

I am not sure if the server provides you with a temporary copy of the .map file or not. I do know that only the server needs a copy of the actual/final .map file used by the game. The players do not need it. But if you have a .map file on your system though for this game, e-mail me a copy and I will have a look at it. Perhaps you've got an earlier version on your system taken from the main post and this is overiding what the server might give/show you.

I believe I updated the .map file on the main post when I added the freshwater and mountain tags (which is only meant for testing purposes and probably should be deleted before beginning the game, if it is not automatically overridden), but I could be mistaken.

[Septimius Severus]

Just to get confirmation on the freshwater tags. One of the provinces where the freshwater terrain mask was added is province 7, near the Southwestern corner lake.

Gandalf, please open the server copy of the .map file and print for us here what you see on the line for the #terrain command for province 7. Lets put this issue to rest.

Thanks.

[Gandalf Parker]

#terrain 7 8

[Gandalf Parker]

If anyone has interest in far more discussion than it deserves on the subject of timers
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=45813

[Numahr]

OK.
I can't say I find the decision very fair, but so be it. As Ano says, there is a decision-making process we ought to recognize whatever decision is made.

On the rationale that the game is going too slow hence the decision, I think one has to understand that there is a trade-off between team game and quickness, that we have to acknowledge.

Also I want to say that I am very thankful to Gandalf as well for his valuable contribution; and also to those players of the game who showed understanding of this weird situation and fair-play spirit :)

So now let's accept there was a tragic distortion of the time continuum, probably provoked by the energy unleashed by the One True God snizzing or something like this...

[Septimius Severus]

#terrain 7 8

Thanks for that confirmation. Chris, as you can see, the terrain mask on the official sever copy of the map file for the province in question is "8". This is in fact the terrain mask for a plains province (0+8) with a freshwater tag. Don't know why there's no Freshwater icon when you right click on it though. As I mentioned, players do no need a copy of the .map file. This is all handled by the .trn files you get. I recommend deleting any version of the .map you may have on your system (if it is causing you not to see the mountain provinces that I see) and loading up your turn and looking again.

Game note:

Ano has requested that 24 hours be added to the current turn (24). I am forwarding the request now. When Gandalf receives the message from me, he will look at how many hours are left on the clock (currently says 17h) and add 24 to whatever is then shown. This is apparently the easiest way for Gandalf to handle at least a single delay per turn. Please note that after this turn hosts (either by quickhost or when the timer is reached), Gandalf will have to re-adjust the timer back to the regular interval of 48 hours as soon as he is humanly able to get to it. This is the way we will have to handle delay requests in the future. We've just got to accept Gandalf's math and be grateful for whatever, however, whenever, he can process these delays for us.

[Septimius Severus]

Numahr, please be aware that I don't blame you or anybody for any delays to the game. After the rollback fiasco of last game, I personally vowed never to do another one, under any circumstances (even if Gandalf or Llamabeast were to drop dead, or the world were to explode). But then I personally am not uber competitive, an individual game turn does not mean that much to me. And stales don't mean much to me, even if it is my own team that is hurt by it. I simply want to play as often as possible and get in as many turns as possible so that I can learn and experience as much as I can.

I tried the democracy thing last game and then had to deal with people saying I had no guts and no balls for all the polls and opinions I solicited. Yet when an admin makes a firm stand or makes a decision, they get charged with being overbearing, dictitorial or else. Really guys, I just can't seem to win in public opinion here. :D But I am willing to deal with it, I've and have always been willing to deal with it. It's the hazards of admining a game.

Now, can we get those turns in please! :)

[chrispedersen]

As a suggestion sept,

Instead of saying gandalf, add 17 hours - which is hard.
Say "Gandalf, please make hosting time Tue at 3 am EST" which is exceedingly easy (whatever time zone gandalf is in).

Then everyon here can see the time and be responsible for figuring out what time hosting is.

[Septimius Severus]

Its actually pretty easy for Gandalf to just look at the log file (from which the external timer is extracted) and add x hours, but Gandalf did suggest what your saying as well, having the players do their own time zone calculations and indicate in their delay request the exact time in PST (server time) they'd like the server to host. They'd decide what time they wanted the server to host in their time zone, then either calculate the equivalent time in PST manually or else use one of the many programs on the Internet to do it.

I have so far been trying to make it as easy on the players as possible. But if all the players (and Gandalf) prefer this method instead, it might certainly make Gandalf's life easier.

[Septimius Severus]

Just a few minor updates:

Children of Crom team:

Cammorak back in for Ashdod.
FinalGenesis in for Marignon.

A new poll on Atlantis is available on the team forums:
http://noobsvets.silverforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=404

Zegc-ben, Market Master, how's it going? Though you've been hard pressed of late, I believe your core water provinces should be relatively safe from the AI. Let us know when new services, forging abilities, etc come on line.

[chrispedersen]

Hey, I tried to download arco's turn to view it.
when I did so, it uploaded a nul turn for arco.

Sept, Gandalf, can you make sure arco has a chance to upload a real turn?

[Septimius Severus]

Hey, I tried to download arco's turn to view it.
when I did so, it uploaded a nul turn for arco.

Sept, Gandalf, can you make sure arco has a chance to upload a real turn?

There's 16 hours left on the current turn. Any revised arco turn submitted before the next hosting should overwrite what is there. Let me know when you expect to upload a new Arco turn or if you want a delay. I haven't submitted my turn yet, but plan to shortly but can wait. Please send a PM to Willburn to resubmit ASAP. You can also submit for him if you choose.

I actually staled last turn for somewhat similiar reasons. Though I like being able to easily download and view my teams turns, you must ensure that after you do so you hit exit to disconnect from the server and then view/play offline via the "play existing games" menu option.

Then when viewing a teammates turn offline, never hit anything other than "quit without saving". Anything else including "end turn", "quit and save" will generate a .2h file for that nation, which will be automatically uploaded when next you connect (unless you manually delete it). Players should look in their saved games/navii folder for any .2h's belonging to nations that they are not currently playing (from a previous turn or a new turn) and delete them if you see any. They will stay in that folder unless deleted.

[zegc-ben]

I haven't uploaded my turn yet and I can wait if you want.

And also I have reached construction level 6 and I will soon be able to equip nicely teleporting king of the deeps, let me know if you are interested.

[Septimius Severus]

We've got about 5 or 6 hours on the turn. I've asked Gandalf (if possible) to just shut off quickhost only for the current turn, so that Chris and Co can get another turn uploaded.

Everyone else go ahead and submit. No reason to draw the turn out longer than necessary. But if more time is needed, let me and Gandalf know ASAP!

Good to hear your at construction 6, Zegc, we might could use something.

[chrispedersen]

I'm told We're good to go sept. Thanks Atlantis.

FYI sept, its not that I didn't hit exit, of course I did. However, the second time you connect(for whatever reason like you didn't have a right password the first time) it uploads a turn.

[ano]

That's because you have a .2h for the old turn that (under some circumstances) may be considered appropriate. We ran into the same situation with Ermor before

[chrispedersen]

Yeah, I'm familiar with that too. Except I didn't have any .2h's - I deleted all .2h files prior to reconnecting.

Weirdly, some of my orders didn't process either.

[Septimius Severus]

As long as you completely delete any offending .2hs from the directory before you connect to the server you should not have any problems. If anyone does make a mistake when viewing another persons turns offline (like hitting anything other than 'quit without saving') just remember to go into the navii directory and delete it before you next connect.

The only way it could upload another .2h file from your system (and I don't think spontaneous generation of .2h's occurs) is if the game looked in other directories and pulled something from there. While it possible it could look in the main Dom3 and saved games folders for a stray .2h, I don't think it will look in a directory for another game with a completely different sub folder name.

[AlgaeNymph]

I've got a connection problem. When I try to connect to the network the game just stalls out on me.

[chrispedersen]

It did that to me for a LONG time as well algae. I let it sit for an hour before it connected.

[Septimius Severus]

Don't know why the server is acting slugishly or freezing/pausing on the "getting game info screen". I've sent a PM to Gandalf. The game seems to have hosted fine though, so it should have finished processing the turn awhile ago. May be necessary to stop/restart the game. The timer would be reset to 48 if necessary to allow for this period of limbo.

On another subject: NaVIII due this fall, based on the input I received (thanks), I will likely go with a single human played independent nation for game 3. Most likely either LA R'lyeh (with a dozen or so sea provinces in the center, and perhaps the 4 corner lakes as well, or LA E'rmor. Freshwater masks and mountain masks will be added in either case.

I do think the Merc/Merchant is/was a decent enough idea for inclusion in other/future games, and can be viable in the right situations with certain implementation. But a single nation able to ally as they please with the team of their choice and with a possible solo victory condition may have more of a strategic impact, especially given the power of LA R'lyeh, LA Ermor and the 3 person teams.

I'm leaning toward LA R'lyeh, since it will enable me to add the aforementioned central multi province lake and will provide a buffer zone for the indy player (surrounded as they will be by 4 AI caps). No bonuses will be given to this nation.

[ano]

I'm not going to play, but still I have to say that LA R'lyeh is arguably one of the weakest nations in the game now, and even more so in LA. I many times gave lots of arguments for this (having had vast experience with LA R'lyeh before it was severely nerfed and having won a large game with them, I know what I'm speaking of). On paper they may look powerful but in reality I seriously doubt anyone but the most top players is able to play them really competitively without huge luck.
Even if you don't consider them weak as I do, I don't think anybody who has played them after the nerf can still say they are ultimately powerful. They are very annoying and problematic for the nations around them due to their dominion and that's all.
I'd never ever want to play them again in MP.

[Septimius Severus]

Wow, you mean their not the powerhouse I thought they were. :D I really am behind on the times. What patch(s) were they nerfed in?
I still think they are fun to play. Since the AI caps surround this player the dominion effects will mostly be on the AI which players should be fine with. And effective preaching/strong dominion should deal with most of it. While I find their dominion annoying sometimes, do you think it as devastating as LA Ermor's pop kill dominion? LA Atlantis is a possibility in the role but would require at least one land province in the center of that sea (have to check the sea/land cap resource gathering thing).

[Finalgenesis]

ooOO my favorite nation, aside from the micromanagement hell. Is it too early to volunteer myself? =P

edit: I have to agree that their dominion may have unintended impact on the game in the long run.

[Septimius Severus]

Probably is, but glad you like the idea of playing LA R'lyeh. We are also working on a completely new customized group of pretenders for each team. Including possibly multi-headed dragons, powerful 4 armed divinites, magnificent angels & demons, and cool new shapeshifters. With some of the more annoying aspects of the uber AIs toned down, I am very much looking forward to it.

[ano]

I definitely won't play, Septimius, I'm just expressing my opinion. Popkill rate is huge and money demands are huge even without domkill. And all generated chaff also eats upkeep (10 units eat 1 gold). That's why soon you'll find yourself absolutely crippled and without money at all unless you manage to expand fast and\or kill your opponent(s) which is EXTREMELY hard with R'lyeh because absolutely all of their troops suck except the crab hybrids who are aquatic. R'lyeh needs either magic to win battles (but you won't have money for good research and especially for battlefield magery) or tons of generated chaff (that is generally much worse than skeletons). This makes virtually impossible to make a successful attack on a decent player early on.
That's why I'm talking about huge luck or fantastic skill. These two are the only things that may help this nation in the competitive game.

[ano]

People keep thinking LA R'lyeh is an uber power and even sometimes banning it for that but this is just ridiculous. It's a crappy nation even though it's thematically fun to play them. I had to ban them I'd do it because of their crappiness, not their powers.

[Septimius Severus]

You are certainly free to voice your opinion and I respect the input of all players. And yes, I do know you don't like playing against the AI. :)

I think many players playing LA R'lyeh will just find an ally or the AI to assist them in killing off any unwanted units and reducing their upkeep costs. But I'll certainly consider LA Atlantis, or LA Ermor as a possibility in the role as well, as I said before. Though I'm still leaning toward R'lyeh.

[Finalgenesis]

Maybe give the water nation merc (if you decide on one) an island in the middle with a forging bonus site or other ritual site. Some trait of rainbowness would enhance the merc's service value too. I'm speaking under the influence of sleep deprivation high, so absolutely no thought went into those suggestions (just so you know).

[Wrana]

I would like more to see LA R'lyeh & Ermor as part of AI team. R'lyeh would probably look better thematically as a merc than Ermor.
LA Atlantis I think would be fine as an alien nation seeking any allies to break the power of their old enemies.

[Finalgenesis]

Some sort of goal or ends for the merc? I could imagine the motivation to play an active merc to be hard to maintain, as you don't really have any goal.

Maybe have 2 competing merc or something... or some way to introduce an agenda / win condition to the merc that makes sense... a random example might be merc wins if there is no clear winner by the end of year xxx, thematically that is because strife and conflict is good (and perhaps necessary) for the merc, this also give losing teams a slight boon as merc is more likely to give them a hand, so they can catch up easier and make for a closer game.

[chrispedersen]

Wow, you mean their not the powerhouse I thought they were. :D I really am behind on the times. What patch(s) were they nerfed in?
I still think they are fun to play. Since the AI caps surround this player the dominion effects will mostly be on the AI which players should be fine with. And effective preaching/strong dominion should deal with most of it. While I find their dominion annoying sometimes, do you think it as devastating as LA Ermor's pop kill dominion? LA Atlantis is a possibility in the role but would require at least one land province in the center of that sea (have to check the sea/land cap resource gathering thing).

Sometime around 3.23 the domkill effect of LA ermor and La-Rlyeh was increased tenfold.

[Septimius Severus]

Hmm, still having the same issue, the game freezing at the "getting game info" screen. So I've so far been unable to download turns (though haven't let it sit for an hour). Gandalf suspects it might be due to another large game on his server eating up processor time/space. Once the issue is resolved we will be able to continue.

Final, the indy nation I'm planning for game 3 won't be a merc in the sense of the current implementation. No rules, neutrality, bonuses, etc. Just a single nation, free to do as they please. Even play off one team against another. A separate VP condition can be provided if the player should decide to go solo. And if they are eventually allied with the winning team, they can share the credit with the team. Haven't thought about other goals, also haven't decided on magic locations or not.

Edit: Gandalf says the game has been reset and should be working now.

[Septimius Severus]

Sometime around 3.23 the domkill effect of LA ermor and La-Rlyeh was increased tenfold.

Whoa! Was wondering why pop dies so fast playing La R'lyeh.

Atlantis may well be a good choice, once they get going their Arsaturts, Mournfuls, and Unsleeping units (though slow) seem pretty powerful.

LA Ermor may well be left out of the game entirely. Not sure how the AI handles it.

Just thinking, how much can taking a high growth scale compensate for this domkill for the R'lyeh player? Is a growth scale even needed by these nations? I wonder if there are guides written on LA R'lyeh after the patches and what they recommend for the potential R'lyeh player. Reminds me to have a look.

As for the effects on other players, I know I've been playing alongside R'lyeh for more than 60 turns in my other game and have only had a single commander go insane.

Also, regarding R'lyeh's useful crab hybrids (if aquatic only) they'd not be really usuable against anything other than water nations. Tell me, is there a magic item that allows a commander to bring aquatic only units to the surface? A sort of mass amulet of the fish. I know the ability exists the opposite way, but not sure about the reverse.

[Finalgenesis]

I think the G3 can counteract up to 3 candles I think? There's a post somewhere that tested how many candles G3 can counteract.

There's a guide around that advocates just going for Death 3 turmoil 3 and rely on luck, I have to agree. Though long term play is annoying and you eventually run out of pop / income, I get the impression that shifting to void specter and other summons is a must later in the game. Never played them MP however...

I don't think there's a way to bring crab hybrid out. I think the guide advocates using gold for mages / buildings mostly, and rely on your crazy amount of chaff to buy your mages time for casting (and hopefully get as much as your chaffs killed off too in the process...). I think you don't want gold-bought line troops as you already get too many lesser quality free stuff to do the same job.

My noobie take on it base on SP games.

[ano]

Do I understand it right that hosting has been postponed because of server problems, heh? If I don't complete my turn now and then stale like Pythium did, I will be very unhappy. If hosting has not been postponed, please, let's change the timer NOW so that it shows correct time.
Or another proposal. If we can't trust server time, let's give it up altogether and post valid hosting time here like it is done in manually hosted game (PashaDawg's games are a good example)

[ano]

Finalgenesis
Yes, you will run out of gold very fast, much faster than you expect it. And, as I said, words and guides are good on paper and if you manage to make a good and efficient killing machine of your generated chaff, I'll say "WOW!". Seriously, they're absolute crap, especially for LA where armor is so high. If they manage to do 1hp damage each before they die, that'll be great.
Research really turns the tides for R'lyeh. Alteration spells convert this chaff into decent troops but you won't live long enough to see it in action. Or maybe you will live... With 10 provinces, 5000 pop total and 150 research per turn by turn 30. That makes little difference :)

The difference between Ermor and R'lyeh is that Ermor needs little to no money at all and thus can spam castles and temples, recruit mercs, etc. R'lyeh, OTOH, needs money for EVERYTHING (including the chaff you have to pay for, remember it. And you will be crying when you realize that you have 2000 mad tritons eating 200 gold each turn that you have absolutely no way to use and absolutely no way to get rid of. Well, maybe make them starve, but that's tricky and problematic as well)

I get the impression that shifting to void specter and other summons is a must later in the game.
Are you serious? With 35% sites (LA standard) and 15 water provinces you'll have about 8S per turn unless you're very lucky (or very unlucky). Void spectre costs 25, IIRC. What are you talking about?

[Septimius Severus]

Do I understand it right that hosting has been postponed because of server problems, heh? If I don't complete my turn now and then stale like Pythium did, I will be very unhappy. If hosting has not been postponed, please, let's change the timer NOW so that it shows correct time.
Or another proposal. If we can't trust server time, let's give it up altogether and post valid hosting time here like it is done in manually hosted game (PashaDawg's games are a good example)

Ano, what are you raving on about now? :D

The server was freezing up sometime after the last host. Gandalf reset the timer and everything seems to be working fine. This gives ya a little extra time to account for the frozen period. I don't show any stales for last turn in the stats file.

I see that AI Eriu is now dead (main post to be updated). Who has done this terrible thing? I suspect it was the Supplicants. Now I man is looking for a fight, and we challenge you to bring it to them ASAP. ;)

[ano]

Ano, what are you raving on about now?
I'll tell you. I just want things to be predictable, nothing more.
Which gives ya a little extra time to account for the frozen period.
I just want to know if server time reflects real hosting time and if you will not again change 48 to 8 or smth like that. If this time everything is fine, I'm glad because I'm having terrifically hard days now and thus not much time to play.
Now I man is looking for a fight
Didn't understand this sentence

[Finalgenesis]

Are you serious? With 35% sites (LA standard) and 15 water provinces you'll have about 8S per turn unless you're very lucky (or very unlucky). Void spectre costs 25, IIRC. What are you talking about?

No need to overreact there, I am perfectly aware of my inexperience and limitation of having only tried LA Ry in SP games. Those are some good points and I'm getting the urge to wring out more experienced player's advice on these issues, but I'll refrain in this case.

[ano]

No need to overreact there
Sorry, if this sounded rude or something. I didn't want that. It's just still strange for me why so many people still consider LA R'lyeh and uber-power. Perhaps, they never tried playing them in a competitive MP. I'm not talking about you here. It's quite understandable that you read what others write and base some of your opinions on that

And the idea that needs to be learned from my post about Void Spectres is that unless you have serious reasons to think you'll have many gems (clams are a serious reason, for example but this way is also not so easy for the Dreamlands) you should not plan summoning many arguably effective things for 25+ gems. You will be always short on gems and never have enough of them if you play competitively.
LA Ermor can count on its summons because it has a 15D income right off the bat. R'lyeh has 3S. It's easy to compare

[Septimius Severus]

Ano, as far as I can tell the current time is as reliable as it's gonna be unless something else goes wrong or delays are requested. I have not asked Gandalf to correct the time down because of the freeze problem. And so people have some extra time to play around with this turn.

Sorry I meant AI Man.

Speaking of turn time, we are scheduled to go to 56 hours around turn 30. I am considering putting that off till turn 40. Personally I have plenty of time right now and not many provinces to worry about, but that is just me however. I will hear opinions on the subject though.

[ano]

I strongly object.
Moreover, I must tell you that karnoza will be going on vacation from July, 10 till 24 or so. So I will have to play for 3 nations during that period (currently I'm controlling C'tis and Ermor as you know). That's a bit much for me, especially considering the complexity and size of the turns.
Even if it wasn't so, still the further the game goes the bigger demand for communications is. Team game normally needs much more time than a regular MP and it is currently very hard for us to do turns inside 48h timer. I'd suggest even further increasing the timer but I will wait with this suggestion until there's a desperate need.

[Septimius Severus]

If there are any objections (and looks like there are) then we will proceed as normal as per the schedule until we reach an agreed upon maximum. I will initiate 56 hours as of turn 31.

I still suggest Ano, you not play more than a single nation if you can help it. The time demands on you will only grow as your province count increases, not to mention skewing the experience level of the team. Though with less players, the communication overhead should be less.

I recommend shedding some of those extra provinces to reduce your workload. Children of Crom will be happy to take over those burdensome provinces from C'tis. Just let us know which provinces you need us to take over in the west. Please raze the temples, but leave the labs intact. Thanks.

[Septimius Severus]

Hmm, regarding the indy nation for game 3, looks like Atlantis in the middle of that small sea would require a resource bonus as their cap can't gather resources from sea provinces.

R'lyeh is a fun option and can be played with high growth, high order, low dom, for players like Ano who are concerned about freespawn MM, income, or dom effects. Not necessarily the best way to play the nation though.

It should also be possible to mod crab hybrids and slave units to be amphibious. Which would be something of a bonus.

Other option is to go with a strictly land based indy, possibly LA Ermor or whatever else is left.

[Finalgenesis]

That's some good stuff, didn't know that LA Ermor gets 15D, that's crazy :shock:

I also didn't feel that LA Ry was all that overpowered, it seems to be a penalized version of MA Ry. I was thinking I played it wrong.

I definitely ran into the pearl cramp you were speaking of, I thought I must be doing it wrong as I can't seem to pump out enough specter and alchemy didn't seem like the answer, while I'm reading online and agree theoretically that summoned mage is the way to go late game. Having to use pearls on other stuff like astral gateway / teleport / craft just killed me there, CBM didn't help on the clamming either.

I'd like to pick your brain on scales selection for LA Ry, as I've only really used dom 9 T3L3 and standard Sloth3 Cold3 Magic1, expansion was definitely tough late-game once I killed off much of my pop and I can't build up to 800 gold with small luck income events to make forts, my mages and hordes of chaff (my god I can't get them killed fast enough) just resets my gold reserve to zero every turn, so I in effect can only build castle when I get 1k+ gold events.

I made various starving camps and have dedicated commanders to shuffle them in for population control (my god I sound so evil) but as I was playing on a big map, the micro finally got to me along with the dom kill time-bomb.

I could imagine in MP games it'd get much harder since pure chaffing loses a lot of its effectiveness against humans....


And the idea that needs to be learned from my post about Void Spectres is that unless you have serious reasons to think you'll have many gems (clams are a serious reason, for example but this way is also not so easy for the Dreamlands) you should not plan summoning many arguably effective things for 25+ gems. You will be always short on gems and never have enough of them if you play competitively.
LA Ermor can count on its summons because it has a 15D income right off the bat. R'lyeh has 3S. It's easy to compare

[rdonj]

I highly recommend llamabeast's final sacrifice mod in any game with LA r'lyeh. Don't want those upkeep-causing uw only sycophants? Burn them all :) Although come to think of it I'm not sure if that spell can be cast underwater or against uw provinces.

Also, LA Ermor getting 15D isn't really that crazy since they have to summon all their mages... for minimum 12D. So pretend they have a death income of 3.

[Finalgenesis]

ah I see, I guess I'll get around to LA Ermor eventually and see for myself.

The mod sounds useful indeed, I'll have to look it up as I just can't handle the micro pass a certain point while loving the Lovecraftian theme.

[chrispedersen]

You cannot play Rlyeh with low Dom on this map. The 'string' nature of your provinces means you are already horribly susceptible to dom kill.

[Septimius Severus]

You cannot play Rlyeh with low Dom on this map. The 'string' nature of your provinces means you are already horribly susceptible to dom kill.

The map for game 3 will have a variation (for R'lyeh use) containing a large central multi province lake/sea. I was not talking about the current map.

[Willburn]

As our team are having internal discussions between me and the captain I will resign. Thanks for a good game but I cannot and will not play for my captain the way he treated me. Let me go on to add this is probably also my fault so I appologize to my team for this.

[Finalgenesis]

Oh just a question on game 3, will that be using any additional mods like CBM?

[Wrana]

I hope not. :)

[Septimius Severus]

Oh just a question on game 3, will that be using any additional mods like CBM?

Aside from the BI mod (with maybe a few slight tweaks), we will be using our own custom mod, which will handle the special pretenders, and might also include an appropriate portion of the final sacrifice mod if R'lyeh is played, though just normally suiciding troops against the AI or an ally should be sufficient).

I am also considering including a new faction specific spell, item, or starting hero. But haven't given it much thought yet.

If the image work can be done to create a decent looking central sea region, the indy R'lyeh player will have a good buffer zone of sea provinces and should be pretty much be safe from AI attack.

The regular all land option is also available without the central sea, suitable for an indy LA Ermor or some other land nation. Though, they might well be more vulnerable to AI attack unless the dom of Ermor can somehow counteract this.

[Septimius Severus]

As our team are having internal discussions between me and the captain I will resign. Thanks for a good game but I cannot and will not play for my captain the way he treated me. Let me go on to add this is probably also my fault so I appologize to my team for this.

Willburn, sorry to hear this. I don't know the situation, but team games can take a lot out of ya. And attrition is an issue in any dom3 MP game that lasts any amount of time (why I believe the alternate idea is a sound part of planning).

One of the challenges of team games (and real life teams) is getting along with others. Some captains have a more laid back approach, others are more demanding. Some teams are more democractically run, others are more dictatorial. I actually wish I had Chris "tight asset management skills", maybe then our team would have fared better initially. But still I encourage players to try to take all measures necessary to resolve any differences. Respect one another and learn from one another and be flexible when needed. Yes, the captain is leader of the team and ultimately has responsibility for the team overall, but it really is a group effort.

And love your enemies as well. Keep them close to you at all times. Embrace them. The Children of Crom haved longed to put our loving arms and strong hands round the necks of the Supplicants (particularly their leader) and to squeeze them oh so tightly. :)

[rdonj]

Sept - for LA R'lyeh, suiciding its troops against others can be a bit hard. The problem is they have a number of aquatic only units that spawn without the player's consent, and still cost upkeep to maintain. So unless there happens to be someone sharing the water with them it's impossible to get them killed off in combat.

[Septimius Severus]

Thanks for that info rdonj and the info on the spell used by the final sacrifice mod. May be useful to use (I like the holy variant of the modified spell), and while it works for underwater units, a more appropriate message/description for underwater destruction might be better than flames from the sky.

Wonder which aquatic only freespawn R'lyeh gets. I have been considering modding their aquatic only units (slaves, crab hybrids) to be amphibious. Shouldn't be too difficult. Wonder if that would make R'lyeh ultra powerful. :)

[chrispedersen]

I'd love it if you did that, sept. I have often pondered doing it - making minor changes, as a way of balancing La-R post nerf.

Some of the units need to be made mobile, many of them need to be made amphibious.
I'll get you a list of all the units, if you do the modding (which is relatively painless).

[Finalgenesis]

The upkeep also doesn't go down well with me. Forced freespawn (even with a 1 gold cost) that has an upkeep just exacerbates their mobility and aquatic (for the aquatic spawns only) problems.

I reckon that their upkeep be removed entirely along with amphibious spawn only, and if that's overpowered then down the spawn rate.

[chrispedersen]

thats actually a great idea FG; easily done.
I think we're guilty of a threadjack, however =)

[Septimius Severus]

I will say that I think the majority of R'leyh troops both recruitable and freespawn are amphibious but yes as rdonj and chris point out they have a few that are aquatic only, which could be fixed. Of course, the R'lyeh player could opt to play them with a high growth/high order/low dom which might not be so bad given the water area plannned (at least in the water) and given they'll have no direct competition in the water. But of course this is not necessarily the best way to play them, and certainly a high death, high dom is also a very good option. Up to the player.

LA Atlantis is also an option. All of their units are amphibious and they don't have to worry bout freespawn. The only thing with them is their start would have to be a land start. Which would tend to necessitate the need for several provinces of land in the midst of this central sea. Of course I could make the center water province a land province only and just give a resource bonus site, but they'd not be able to recruit Tungaliks en masse until they took some land. Forgiving fathers have a little more research but don't share all of the same paths and are more expensive. Mournfuls would also not be able to be recruited outside of the cap until a land province was taken. Though Arsaturts (cap only) and Unsleeping/Unsleeping consorts should be plentiful and are probably the most powerful recruitables LA Atlantis has.

Of course if people prefer a land nation for the indy nation I am throwing in, that is of course very possible (wouldn't require water either). Only thing is they'll be surrounded by the AI caps and might be more vulnerable. If the AI should end up being defensive in nature, like the current game, Atlantis or R'lyeh could pretty much attack without fear of losing these core holdings. But Ermor or another land nation would have to defend itself and might be more hard pressed.

[Finalgenesis]

Would Caelum be a viable mercenary? I don't know what Nav3 will look like, but from Nav2 it seems there's a limited options in terms of lending army muscle. Granted, the info, craft and other services are unhampered, though the actual "mercenary" service is difficult to bring to players. Flight would help

Another idea might be to give merc gate-stone, with the rule that gate-stone can not be used to teleport on player provinces unless permission was given, or usable only when solicited and paid for by a player. Or hell, maybe just no rule at all, as its a pain to enforce. Flying ship might be another one to throw in...

Just some ideas.

If land nation for merc is choosen, maybe set the map up to have its core holding locked in by border mountains, maybe with 2-4 pass or just the teleporting connection to edge of map (of course I don't know what Nav3 will look like remotely, just basing on Nav2). a Not so good idea may be to stick a sphinx (or whatever works) in each of those pass with a fort...

I'm not sure what setting/role/power/goal you have in mind for the merc in Nav3, so the above haven't really accounted for that.

[rdonj]

The only problem with caelum is that its actual flying soldiers are generally pretty poor in a straight up fight. They have incredible encumbrance issues, and are easy to pick off because they're larger than normal humans so fit less in a square, have very average stat lines, and have very poor tactical sense with regards as to where to stand. So they are often butchered en masse... not really great for dealing with AI army hordes.

I reasonably like the idea of giving out flying ships though... but more than one. Reduce them from artifact level, and start the merc out with a bunch of them (but increase the cost...). Then they have all the mobility of flight without the disadvantage of sucking.

[Septimius Severus]

I had thought about Caelum as the merc for the current game but decided to go with Atlantis. Though Atlantis had lost most of their land holdings, their few water holdings proved fairly safe from the AI, though they probably need to do a bunch of preaching to keep their dom up because of the way the provinces were set up on this map (wasn't expecting the loss of the initial land provinces). Hopefully they will have the magic were-with-all and have built up enough strength to maybe push back against the AI at some point. ;)

For game 3, Caelum is planned as part of the Heavenly Realm team. The extra player in game 3 will be more of an indy nation than a merc (as we know it in the current game). Of course they will still be free to do as they wish and ally as they please. But I don't want to have a lot of rules on them. I am throwing them in just to spice things up and perhaps have a strategic impact. That is all. They will always be at a disadvantage trying to solo against 4 teams, but perhaps with tweaks to R'lyeh they'll have a better chance if they choose to go that route.

If its a land nation, yes, mountain provinces around their camp might well give them some protection and they could even be sealed off entirely connection-wise.

Interesting to discover which option people prefer. So far we've had talk about how weak LA R'lyeh is and how annoying their dominion is, but I haven't heard any preferences. If I don't hear otherwise, I will give a choice between LA R'lyeh and LA Ermor to the prospective indy player.

[AlgaeNymph]

I wouldn't mind being a merc player using LA R'lyeh, or LA Ermor (which I won with on my own).

[Finalgenesis]

Liking that no restriction idea for the last player.

I wouldn't mind being a merc player using LA R'lyeh, or LA Ermor (which I won with on my own).

Looks like it'll be a race at signup :D

[zegc-ben]

My experience is that the central position is very difficult so a land nation may loose to the AI. One important parameter is initial expansion, in this game there wasn't any indy provinces left in the center by turn 5 or 6, so even with defensive AI the central player will have a really hard time acheaving a reasonnable expansion. And then there is the risk of being crushed by non defensive AI. A water nation can at least be reasonnably assured of a minimal expansion. On the other hand having a strong recruitable army is the most important thing for the first turns which tends toward land nation.

Ermor may be the best compromise as the AI will starve to death in ermor's dominion and they can survive with only few provinces much better than any other nation (plus a madly powerfull awaken god is exactly what they need).

[chrispedersen]

may we have a 2 hour delay?

[Septimius Severus]

Whoa, sorry chris, did see that request in time.

Game is moving to a 56 hour host effective this turn (forgot to mention it to gandalf before the host). Timer will be adjusted, even though 5 hours has elapsed, I will just let it slide to make it easy on Gandalf.

Score update circa turn 30:

Provinces:

Supplicants: 92 provinces (Ermor = 34)
Usurpers: 53 provinces (Mictlan = 22)
Gandalf's A.I.T.E.A.M.: 52 provinces (Man = 21)
Children of Crom: 37 Provinces (Ulm/Agartha=13)
AI Sanguinarium: 24
Atlantis: 6 (making a comeback?)

VP's:

Supplicants of Set: 10
Gandalf's A.I.T.E.A.M.: 6
Usurpers: 4
Children of Crom: 4
AI Sanguinarium: 3
Atlantis: 4

[chrispedersen]

Whoa, sorry chris, did see that request in time.


Hate to be critical. But I posted that with what 10 hours till hosting?

[ano]

Well, I may suggest that someone else is given timer-adjusting rights to avoid the situations like this.. I'm normally online the most of the time so I could fulfill such role. Not too much but could be helpful

[Septimius Severus]

I am usually on twice a day, but I can miss a request if it occurs like the last one (after I logged off at night and before I logged on during the day). If I know I will be out of contact for longer periods of time I will leave word with Gandalf, but nothing beats having a co-admin for such duties. I'll see what I can work out, but always best to give as much notification as possible (PMs go direct to my e-mail which I tend to check first and more frequently) since I don't handle timer adjustments myself, but just relay the authorization.

[Septimius Severus]

Here are two preliminary map choices for game 2. Both assume LA R'lyeh for the Indy (will be modding aquatic to amphibious units).

Map Key and Team Placement:

Heavenly Realm Team (teal): NW
Collegium Arcanum (purple: NE
Earthly Realm Team (brown): SW
Underworld Team (red): SE
R'lyeh Independents : Solid blue circle in center

Gandalf's AI GENOCIDE Team (black):
Primary AI starts = Solid black
Secondary AI starts = Hollow black

All provinces within the dark blue border outlines will be part of the central sea.

Freshwater masks will be added around swamps, some border mountains will be changed to mountain masks.

Feel free to vote or provide input on which one you like the best. (I am leaning toward map 1).

Map 1

http://i47.tinypic.com/24n2vbd.jpg

Map 2

http://i45.tinypic.com/2mepg8m.jpg

[Finalgenesis]

Would it be a better idea to use MA R'lyeh, or tone down LA's death dominion? I see Pros and Cons

Do Ryleh have teleporting access to 4 corner?

Mobility aid like flying ships?

Or if I understand correctly, they are really relegated to the role of an independent nation with no prodding for it to do merc work, free to do whatever they want (bring madness to the world), that sounds good too.

[Septimius Severus]

Would it be a better idea to use MA R'lyeh, or tone down LA's death dominion? I see Pros and Cons

Generally each game is single age. The death dominion might be toned down, or the player could conceivably take a high growth/high order/low dominion if they chose (the enclosed area is about 18-20 provinces large). LA Ermor option would be the same map but without the water provinces.

There's always pros and cons.


Do Ryleh have teleporting access to 4 corner?
Mobility aid like flying ships?

I thought about adding 4 lakes in the corners and connecting them to the central sea but decided against it, as it left teams too vulnerable in my opinion and R'lyeh's dominion would always be low in the corners. I also have plans for the corners most likely an easily accesible magic locale for each team. Enabling recruitment of Draconians, Devils, Mages, Mechanical Men, or something suitable to each teams theme. Maybe a cave/tunnel to enhance team mobility.

If the water version is used, I am actually more concerned about the mobility of the teams who will have to either go around or through the water to get at the team diagonally opposite of them. But that does also add some strategic flavor as well. I won't be handing out flying ships to anyone.

The AI will be pressing harder on the teams in this map (the starts will be mixed though, primary and secondary starts will not be the same AI nation) and I think an LA ermor in the center would have much more room to expand than Atlantis had in the current game but of course without the protection that water affords.


Or if I understand correctly, they are really relegated to the role of an independent nation with no prodding for it to do merc work, free to do whatever they want (bring madness to the world), that sounds good too.

Right, they are not a merc with enforced neutrality and rules they must abide by like in the current game. They are an independent nation, free to do what they want. Also free to get wiped out (like in the current game). :D The emphasis remains on the teams of course. But it is great for the player who wants to be involved in a team game and perhaps be the x or unknown factor in such a game, but also wants greater freedom and doesn't want to deal with communication overhead that goes with teams. Also lets them play more interesting/fun nations like LA Ermor, LA R'lyeh that are often banned due to their peculiar nature. And of course they may ally with whoever they wish or act as a merc if they so choose. Its up to the player.

[AlgaeNymph]

But it is great for the player who wants to be involved in a team game and perhaps be the x or unknown factor in such a game, but also wants greater freedom and doesn't want to deal with communication overhead that goes with teams.Me! Me! Me!

[chrispedersen]

bleh.

[AlgaeNymph]

Anyway...does anyone think we have a chance against the Supplicants?

[chrispedersen]

No, I say lets call it. As squirrel and I determined when I (re)joined, the game already was over.

The cromies got nuked by attacking a couple of AIs, Caelum attacked the usurpers. Nothing like being jumped by 120 mammoths.

No water to speak of.. the list goes on.

Congrats to Set, ano and the rest.

[ano]

I don't mind really. Also, RL makes it harder and harder to process the turns for several nations at once. And true, you don't have a chance, even if you all ally.
In case anyone is interested, I'll post an archive of our turns here once the game is called finished

[Lingchih]

I would go back to the Noobs vs. Vets format. Noobs and vets is woosy.

Of course, Sept would have to be a vet now.

[AlgaeNymph]

How about noobs vs intermediates vs vets? I'm not a noob but I still don't see myself as a vet.

[ano]

Lol. Looks like the most people are gonna stale now. Sept said he was usually online to provide delays, I remember..
Anyway, we won't play anymore. Thanks everybody. It was a nice game even though an unbalanced and pretty easy one.

[Septimius Severus]

I am calling the game at turn 33. This last turn will be allowed to process to allow any player who wishes to see the results of a battle to do so (currently 40 mins left). The game will then be taken down.

The Supplicants of Set have won the game via mutual agreement/concession having acquired the most victory points, 11.

Conngratulations to the Supplicants of Set. :first:

Assuming no objections, the team forums will be archived shortly and made public as is our custom.

[Septimius Severus]

And now it is time for thanks and acknowledgements. :D

Very special thanks goes to Gandalf Parker for hosting the game and for his innovative AI work. :clap::clap:

Special thanks to the following:

Rdonj, who did an excellent job as team advisor for the Children of Crom. Rdonj was always there for players when someone had a question. :clap:

Ano, captain of the victorious Supplicants of Set. :clap:

Squirreloid, temporary captain of the Usurpers team. :clap:

Chrispedersen, for his work on the pretender mod and his efforts as captain of the Usurpers team. :clap:

Zegc-Ben, in the role of Market Master and Atlantean Mercenary. :clap:

I also wish to thank the following players:

Wrana
Cammorak
Jorus
FinalGenesis
Tonno
Karnoza
Natpy
Don Pablo
Algae Nymph (the Courageous)
Numahr
Willburn

And of course Burnsaber, Edi (for the BI mod), Ballbarian, and the rest of the dom3 community for their input, assistance, and support.

[ano]

Many thanks, Septimius, for the game organization. It was a cool idea but, sadly, there were some obstacles that prevented this game from being really fun and exciting. But still, thanks to everybody.
Is anybody interested in the archive of our turns?

[Numahr]

Thanks Septimus for the game's organization.
Yes Ano I would be interested by the archive of your turns...

[ano]

Ok, here it is
Am waiting for Septimius to open the forums

[Septimius Severus]

The team forums have been opened for public viewing:

http://noobsvets.silverforum.net/viewforum.php?f=7

And keep an eye out for game 3, due out fall 2010.

NaVIII will hopefully feature among other things:



New and more balanced custom pretenders for each team



Faction specific spells, heros, and magic sites



A single independent nation free to do as they please



Gandalf's trademark GENOCIDE AI (with improvements)



And much more...


I've set up a forum for updates and info on the upcoming game. You may also provide comments, suggestions, and those interested may pre-reserve a position.

It can be found at the link below and via link from the opening post:

http://noobsvets.silverforum.net/viewforum.php?f=19

Thanks for playing. I learned a lot and had great fun. Especially since it was my first time playing Agartha. :D

[ano]

After having read the Usurpers' forums, a few comments.
First Fires From Afar were because we suspected BL was aiming for Const 8 and the Chalice which we could not give you. So, when you started reaching 2800 research (8th level) and we clearly saw we couldn't reach you, we decided to try killing your mages. We saw a Kinnara when everything was ready for the Fires so, obviously you were not aiming for Const, but still decided to fire.
The latter 10 casts were just a demonstration of power after you have officially declared war by attacking Jotun capital siegers. I saw BL lost a lot and hopefully Mictlan and Pyth lost something too. We were planning to summon elemental kings but decided to hesitate with it
In the nearest two turns we were planning a massive teleporting attack on a death spec province you conquered with cutting off retreat and after that - a fortress there with a Blood spell so that you could not retake it.

p.s. Password for all our nations is "sos" (Abbreviation for Supplicants of Set)
p.p.s. Also, In case you're interested in our strategies, read Strategic plans for our team (http://noobsvets.silverforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=275) section of the forums. The most things were played just as supposed, the biggest difference being that I didn't realize how much space is covered with the AI's

[chrispedersen]

Thanks, Sept, Squirrel, Algae, Willburn, Numahar Ano and all...

Can we kill the archives.... I'd rather just forget this = ).

[Cammorak]

Thanks, all. It was interesting. Alas, it seems I was on vacation when the game was called. Playing Ashdod was fun and I feel like this game was a good foot-in-the-door for team games.

Thanks, all. Congrats to the Usurpers.

[Wrana]

Thanks to all. Sorry for staling last turns, Septimius - I had some still unexplained glitch at my home computer, so without net access.

[Septimius Severus]

Just tying up some loose ends:

I would go back to the Noobs vs. Vets format. Noobs and vets is woosy.

Of course, Sept would have to be a vet now.

Thanks for your input Ling. The NvV format can be a viable format, and I know many vets feel more comfortable playing with players of the same experience level (and of course love smiting noobs!). The format did have some issues though, such as finding a correct ratio between the numbers of vets and noobs on each team (and some communication problems with the large teams). Balancing the natural advantage vets have in a matchup between noobs is difficult at best. My solution was to use a 2 noobs to 1 vet ratio, but considering the vets got beat in 2 out of 3 games, a lower ratio might be needed. Even a 1.5:1 or 1:1 ratio has so many other variables (player experience, skill, map setup) to balance, it can be a devilish job. But I support anyone who wants to try it.

I have actually been asking Rdonj to admin a NvV reunion game, where former noobs face off against their old nemesis' to prove their worth. Still be unbalanced experience wise, but not as bad.

Considering the divisiveness that already exists/has existed in the community between various factions, the good thing about NaV, is it brings both experienced players and noobs together, to work and play together.

I certainly am not a vet yet. An intermediate at best. :o

How about noobs vs intermediates vs vets? I'm not a noob but I still don't see myself as a vet.

Sounds like a fun and certainly a possible idea. Again, the challenge will be balancing the experience gap.

Many thanks, Septimius, for the game organization. It was a cool idea but, sadly, there were some obstacles that prevented this game from being really fun and exciting.

Well the greatest obstacle in my opinion was the loss of the Sanguinarium team, as the game was designed for 4 human teams. Still we did the best we could, decided to press on, and I think had at least an overall enjoyable game, and certainly learned a great deal.

As for the AI, it will be tweaked in game 3. It will be more evil in other ways, but PD, production capacity, and starting armies will be reduced (no more mammoths). It will still play an important strategic role, but not to the extent it did in game 3. The combination of the indy player and the bonuses the teams will have, should not make this an issue.

I am looking forward to reading Ano's team forum (though the turn threads appear to be in the Cyrillic alphabet). I had actually gotten tired of C'tis sitting back and sipping cool drinks while we fought hordes of AI Man, so I devised a plot to force them into a fight with the AI. Too bad we did'nt go through with it. :D You can read about it here: http://noobsvets.silverforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=395


Can we kill the archives....

Sorry Chris, I had assumed since I heard no objections, that the archiving would be OK. If you prefer I not archive your teams forums, I can remove it or give you a chance to edit it before making it public. I would like a chance to read it first though. :) I think in the long run though, the overall benefits outweight the negatives.

[ano]

I read about your "super-plan" yesterday, Sept. Obviously, we wouldn't reattack the province if you or Atlantis attacked it and it had borders with Man. It's just too simple. We would attack with a Golem of a Boots-of-the-Planes-Wielding wight mage. Also, I doubt it would be too easy for you to take it as there have always been amazons scripted to attack-leech-leech-leech. I don't know if they've been there the turn you planned it, though.
C'tissian dominion played its role perfectly as a "wall" and though I had more aggressive plans for C'tis initially, I think they played their role well as a research monster. And a blood monster as well, though it was not planned. We had about 250 or more slaves the last turn.
Machaka was a fetish and forge monster (after we found a const bonus site with Bakemono Sorcerer enslaved by Ermor the things became even easier)
and Shin and Ermor were aggressive and you could perfectly see this from the graphs.

[Gandalf Parker]

So in the end, what place did my AI end up in? 3rd place?

[Septimius Severus]

I read about your "super-plan" yesterday, Sept. Obviously, we wouldn't reattack the province if you or Atlantis attacked it and it had borders with Man. It's just too simple. We would attack with a Golem of a Boots-of-the-Planes-Wielding wight mage. Also, I doubt it would be too easy for you to take it as there have always been amazons scripted to attack-leech-leech-leech. I don't know if they've been there the turn you planned it, though.

Yes, I figured you might anticipate it was a trap and not go for it. But it was worth a shot. Actually, my early offensive strategy was quite simple and straightforward, detailed here: http://noobsvets.silverforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=351

It is clear your team's extensive planning and your determination to win was most helpful. My leadership philosophy (which matches my playing philosophy) was somewhat minimalistic, I outlined certain things, but gave a lot of freedom to players to explore, learn, and have fun (and to make mistakes). I have no doubt had DrP and his team been in the game you'd have had a serious run for your money at the very least. And Chris' extraordinarily detailed, machine like, centralized, and highly efficient management philosophy (TAM) might have well have crushed you in the long run, if utterly, completely, and fully implemented, especially coupled with an alliance with another team. :D

[Septimius Severus]

So in the end, what place did my AI end up in? 3rd place?
Your team put in a respectable showing, finishing in second place in terms of VPs with 6. Eriu was totally wiped out though.
The Usurpers came in 3rd with 5 VPs.
And the Children of Crom and Atlantis both ended with 4 VPs each.

[ano]

And Chris' extraordinarily detailed, machine like, centralized, and highly efficient management philosophy (TAM) might have well have crushed you in the long run, if utterly, completely, and fully implemented, especially coupled with an alliance with another team.
Anything could have happened, but my management philosophy is much more detailed than Chris'. If you dived into the files I provided, you could notice that. That's actually why we stopped using the forums. It was just much more inconvenient than a regular chat in Skype. And it was very centralized while I remained the top skill player in our team but became less so after karnoza joined. I warned you about it and suggested 8-nation alliance right off the bat but you didn't listen.
Anyway, it was a nice teaming experience.

[chrispedersen]

Glad to hear someone else get a reputation on the TAM style = ).

I started to comment on this, but essentially, as soon as I saw the first turn (turn 23 ) I realize the game was lost.

To have any chance at all in this game we needed mictlan to have 15 castles - more or less on turn 25. We had 5.

[Wrana]

Actually, my early offensive strategy was quite simple and straightforward, detailed here: http://noobsvets.silverforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=351

It is clear your team's extensive planning and your determination to win was most helpful. My leadership philosophy (which matches my playing philosophy) was somewhat minimalistic, I outlined certain things, but gave a lot of freedom to players to explore, learn, and have fun (and to make mistakes).
I also think that making a good plan and sticking to it was a reason to ano's victory. Maybe another reason was that their team had played together before, too.
Considering our team - firstly, we started to plan before previous analysis of strong and weak sides of our nations. Then, we didn't correct Marignon's player mistake in design in time. Maybe the reason was that we didn't state a clear goal for each nation. :(
Maybe also I made my Pretender somewhat too single-player oriented and he didn't need all paths that he had as we had them in the team.
And then we didn't stick to a plan we had! As with our Forge Lords we should be more active in forging Bloodstones (and maybe Fever Fetishes) without using their time for other activities. Plus, we didn't pull gold for making castles at year 1 as I offered. As a result, we had too little too late.
Anything else?

[Wrana]

Glad to hear someone else get a reputation on the TAM style = ).


And what is TAM style? :confused:

[chrispedersen]

Tight Assed Management Style.

I really don't think that playing together matters much, so long as everyone contributes ideas, but then accepts the captains dictates.

I'm not in any games at the moment; I'd be up for a rematch.
But a rematch would have to involve:
a). A fair map. No border mountains. Reasonable water.
No planning for 4 teams - and then having only 3 = ).
b). No silly bless restrictions on mictlan.

But the biggest problem really is that the teams are not matched.

This is the biggest problem with letting Sept choose themes. His ideas of a 'cool theme' result in unbalanced teams. (no offense sept).

Also, if you set the conditions before hand, (border mountains, no water) and then bid, it makes the quantification of what is 'fair' much easier. Captains can just change their bid, rather than wrangling over how to fix 'unfair' conditions.

Now if sept wants to create themes ( I hope not); I'd suggest bidding on an entire theme - with bid points subtracted from the pretenders in the nation.

[Septimius Severus]

T.A.M. actually stands for:

Tight Asset Management :D

It is a team management and leadership philosophy stressing extremely detailed and super efficient control of all of a teams assets including its human ones. Every gold piece, every gem, every move, every increment in PD, every unit recruited, every spell that is scripted, every research point spent, has a very specific, discreet, and expressly defined purpose and is painstakingly plotted and planned for each of the team members every turn and in advance. The team members function as an extension of the captain, and as a single unit with few decisions made by individual members. I'm not knocking it, it can be a very powerful style, especially if fully implemented. Just not my style of play.

How dare you Chris? I am offended. :) Yes, I admit I enjoy the fantasy role playing aspects of themes (which are actually inherent in the game itself) and just get a bang out of ancient or medieval warfare in general. I also tend to be a casual gamer, so trying to correct every perceived imbalance (I've noticed a few other balance mods coming out now, BTW) and getting into the all the technical details is sort of secondary for me. For those who are hyper competitive by nature, the need to having everything balanced the way they want is important, but this can turn into something of an all consuming, never ending obsession IMO, especially considering that opinions may differ.

I do think that game 3, will do a better job if not as good a job at balancing the various factions while still preserving and maintaining the very real and unique advantages and disadvantages of each team which is the goal behind the theme concept (expecially in the pretender selections). As for the nation match-ups of this game, even if Ashdod or Mictlan was allowed to take the full dreaded bless, or the nations e on each team were somehow different, it would likely not have changed the outcome which had more to do with other circumstances in my opinion, including the loss of the Sangiunarium, team leadership style, player experience and skill level, the strength of the AI, team placement, geography, etc.

Our team did do some initial strategy and laying out of goals, research and so forth for each player, but we certainly were far more laid back than the other teams it seems. :cool:

As for just mountain provinces and no border mountains at all, for some nations, that might make a difference, for others maybe not so. If it benefits one team more than another, that could certainly be viewed as imbalancing, perhaps why the compromise of mixed mountain and border mountain masks was agreed to.

As for water, well I suppose it depends on if your going to have water nations or not, how the water is distributed on the map, and how easy it is for certain nations to exploit it. Frankly, I think that with our central sea, the coastal provinces surrounding it, the swamps, and all the freshwater sites, there will be enough water for the teams who need it. And since I can find no custom map that really suits our placement needs (excepting a smaller version of AOM Ogre), and a random map with water here and there would not be distributed equally for every team, I think it's the best way to go. If anyone has image editing and artistic ability, though, and is willing, feel free to contact me to volunteer. I'd certainly love to have each teams quadrant made more thematic, terrain-wise.

[chrispedersen]

As for the nation match-ups of this game, even if Ashdod or Mictlan was allowed to take the full dreaded bless, or the nations e on each team were somehow different, it would likely not have changed the outcome which had more to do with other circumstances in my opinion, including the loss of the Sangiunarium, team leadership style, player experience and skill level, the strength of the AI, team placement, geography, etc.


Sept, if you think that one team is unbeatable, then why play the game; if you think one team is unbeatable why set up those teams.

I think ano did a great job organizing his team. But I think leadership is only about 35% of a game. Game design is probably 30% and diplomacy 35%.

Any number of factors easily could have shifted this game. If the AI had decided to attack the Sets on turn 12 or so, that alone would have *significantly* altered the game.

I reiterate.. I REALLY would like to ban powerful sites - no construction sites, no circle master sites.

I suggest using sombre's mod.

[ano]

If the AI had decided to attack the Sets on turn 12 or so, that alone would have *significantly* altered the game.
We attacked AI ourselves somewhere about this moment, so I don't think it could decide. Also, we were sure than Man will not attack C'tis because Ashdod attacked Man and we convinced Atlantis to do the same. C'tis was one of the main powers at that time and as we knew how AI chooses his targets, we could be absolutely sure that C'tis and Machaka are safe and could focus on the top AIs. One thing that DID decide was our three PoDs (nothing except a PoD could beat an AI castle 125 PD early on and nobody bet it at all except us) plus rainbow lich. OTOH, nobody knew about 125 PD and I even didn't realize the AIs have two starting provinces, armies and castles. I was sure that the space near the map edges was free.
I REALLY would like to ban powerful sites - no construction sites, no circle master sites.
Construction site didn't decide much as well, however it, of course, would decide if the game continued
As for water, well I suppose it depends on if your going to have water nations or not, how the water is distributed on the map, and how easy it is for certain nations to exploit it.
Speaking of water, I must say that we have had a VERY good water income that allowed us 3 or more clams per turn, boots of quickness and any other artifacts and we still had excess gems. And Ermorian lands were poorly searched. OTOH, our nature income was absolutely pitiful (every single province expect Ermorian ones was sitesearched with Haruspex or N3 mage) and mainly came from the capitals of Pan and Eriu that we conquered. Our fire income was also poor though we searched nearly everything as well and mainly came from Fetishes.

[Wrana]

Thanks for explanations, chris & Septimius. Having both them makes it so much more clear. :)
As for balance, yes, trying to reach the perfect balance can consume too much time to too little effect. But to reach some balance is possible and I think this game's teams were balanced enough for it to matter. 3 teams had Death, Blood & Astral, respectively, while the 4th one had the best forging capability together with some good SC, etc. possibilities in Ashdod & Mictlan (summons). It's completely mea culpa that we used what we had so poorly. :doh: Of course, if we have a way to make it more balanced without going into the Quest for the Perfect Balance, we should use it. That's why we had pre-game discussion before this game and are having this discussion now. What in particular do you mean, chrispedersen, by teams offered for the 3rd game being not balanced? I think that in some cases we may agree with you... ;) And could you say what do you offer with "bid system" in more detail?
A map, of course, could be better. I hope it would be for the next game.
As for the random sites, etc. I think that restricting them makes sense for competitive chess-like games, but not for theme based ones. Everyone has a chance for something cool. It's in how you use cards you are dealt where skills are shown. Of course, chance still plays its part and it's especially impoortant when skills are near even. But so it goes. :cool: Theoretically, we can include some important sites in the map, add heavy defense (and make them appropriately beautified in the map picture ;) ), then exclude them from the random generation. But I'm not sure it is necessary. If someone wants to draw a special map, he/she may keep this idea in mind...

[zegc-ben]

I would like also to ask you about my usefullness as a merc nation. I tried to offer interesting prices and I think I reached construction 4 before most nations and yet almost all my transactions were gem exchange, probably mostly because I was unable to give a good value to the different types of gems. When I offered to attack the AI only Ano answered ( you didn't "convince" me to attack Man, I wanted to do so but I needed your autorisation=) even though it was a great deal since I had around 15 elephants at that time. Later Septimus asked for two military operation and 2/3 items and this is it.

For the AI, I dont think the 125PD was the most important thing, the really crasy thing was the 50 to 100 indies per province around turn 5-6 with real armies of mamouth, knights, ... on top of that. The army who killed my elephants was stronger than the PD with certainly around 50 knights of the chalice.

[ano]

I tried to offer interesting prices and I think I reached construction 4 before most nations
You're mistaken. We were far ahead in construction at that moment and so we didn't need anything from you except the things we couldn't forge ourselves (and this was only a few items) without Machakan pretender who was able to forge virtually everything

[ano]

To conclude.
I do think that our team was the strongest by nations and pretenders selection if played properly (and I hope we did it). It was a bit unbalanced and even more so taking into account the enormous AI hordes and PD that our Princes could fight without problem. But, without doubt, it was not drastically unbalanced and I'm sure that the other teams, especially the Usurpers could perform much better if played correctly.
Also, the AI factor appeared to be too big in this game and this is what I particularly disliked. Game was over right before the fun was about to begin and we won by concession just because we fought AI better. I expressed my opinion regarding uber-AIs somewhere before, so nothing new here.
That's it. We made only one huge mistake - it was the loss of fully quipped Wight mage (Sickle+ Boots of the Planes) to Abysia because he refused to cast two "Resist Fire" spells (one from Fire school and another one from water+earth). Now I understand they give the same effect and thus don't stack but we didn't realize. He cast Blade Wind instead of fire resistance, gathered fatigue and died pitifully.

[Septimius Severus]

Sept, if you think that one team is unbeatable, then why play the game; if you think one team is unbeatable why set up those teams.

Nah. Didn't think any team was "unbeatable" in game 2 and though it would have been an uphill battle, Ano's team could have been beaten, just think those extra captain tweeks on the pretender blesses of Ashdod and Mictlan and having this nation or that wouldn't have made a huge difference because of the way things turned out. Btw, I won't be allowing those captain tweaks on the blesses in game 3, but the pretender lineup will get a revamp in game 3, so that every team has an equal number of viable, unique, and fun options to choose from. As balanced as can be for a theme based game.


I think ano did a great job organizing his team. But I think leadership is only about 35% of a game. Game design is probably 30% and diplomacy 35%.

I agree somewhat yes.

The game has so many variables that come into play as far as winning and losing that I don't think any one factor (such as a teams nation choices) by itself decides anything in the complete and final picture: Consider all of the following:


Team planning and organizing
Captains skill and experience level
Player experience level
Player skill level
Team communication/motivation/determination
Map geography and terrain (currently random)
Starting location placement
AI machinations and strength (where the AI expands, who it fights, or who fights it)
Stength and type of Indies
Luck and random factors (misfortune/luck scales, gem searching, random events, etc.)
Diplomacy/Alliances
Actions of the merc or human played indy nation

Then of course you've got the theme related elements:

Team nation choices
Team pretender choices
Path restrictions
Any special magic locations
Faction specific bonuses (items, spells, heros, sites, etc)

My goal of course is to have the theme related elements play a bigger strategic role, but as you can see there is no single factor that will decide the outcome of a game like ours. That is what makes it so intriguing.

But you all have done a great job on keeping the input and feedback and discussions going here. I really appreciate it. I also encourage input and visits to the info and updates forum for game 3 http://noobsvets.silverforum.net/viewforum.php?f=19&sid=963867c883d7f2202c1c9ca4785c2d67, which is open to all. Between Gandalf's work on the AI, DrP's work on the pretenders, and Cleveland's work on the map image, it is very much a collaborative effort.

In the meantime, I need something to wet my whistle. I see the traitors game is starting to fill up. :D I've also been considering admining my first non-team game. If I do, it will be small, relatively fast moving, and hopefully unique and interesting.

[ano]

chrispedersen
I agree with a number of your points ano.
Only an SC caliber PoD could handle most of the PD's. This was one of the points that I made at the outset - that the Usurpers had no thug and no SC chassis available.

However, PD was not even the start of the issue. Flying, berserk mammoths would have trampled even your PoD's. We killed more than 120 of them.
And they did trample our PoD's and they gathered a lot of afflictions. :)

[chrispedersen]

To conclude.
I do think that our team was the strongest by nations and pretenders selection if played properly (and I hope we did it). It was a bit unbalanced and even more so taking into account the enormous AI hordes and PD that our Princes could fight without problem. But, without doubt, it was not drastically unbalanced and I'm sure that the other teams, especially the Usurpers could perform much better if played correctly..

Yes the Usurpers did not play well. But even playing well there was not a thing we could have done to win that game.

Without an SC chassis, or forging, or water income, or a bless, or globals - there was no way for usurpers to be competitive. Sure we would have beaten caelum; we had in fact taken two of his castles. But fighting army v army we took hundreds of casualties. Which meant that turn after turn we fell farther behind Set.

[chrispedersen]

chrispedersen
I agree with a number of your points ano.
Only an SC caliber PoD could handle most of the PD's. This was one of the points that I made at the outset - that the Usurpers had no thug and no SC chassis available.

However, PD was not even the start of the issue. Flying, berserk mammoths would have trampled even your PoD's. We killed more than 120 of them.
And they did trample our PoD's and they gathered a lot of afflictions. :)

When did you fight Caelum. I had no spy reports of that. and we were able to observe every caelum territory.

[ano]

Eriu and Man also had a lot of mammoth. They could recruit each other's troops, as Gandalf said.

[AlgaeNymph]

Yes the Usurpers did not play well.Yes, thank you for reminding us yet again. This is why I don't want the archives deleted, so you can't hide how you treated us.But even playing well there was not a thing we could have done to win that game.So you constantly berated us for no good reason then?

Reality check, we are not you. We do not spend hours upon hours over every little detail as if we had nothing better to do. And if any of us made one mistake with the dozens of small ways you basically wanted to play the game for us you'd let us have it, while saying nothing about what we got right. You even try to micromanage people on other teams.

You've annoyed me to the point where I'm making it publicly known. Maybe I would have held my ire if you said "we didn't play well" instead of dumping it all on the rest of the team.

Oh, and good job leaving Squirreloid in the lurch for a month when you said it'd be a week.

*sigh*

Yes, I lost my temper, I don't want you feeling like you can freely badmouth us after how you treated us. I regret that I didn't act earlier, or constructively, but I needed to state my feelings.

[Septimius Severus]

The TAM style can have its advantages, especially for the fresher, greener noobs, while more experienced players or players desiring a more free style may feel rather confined. It does mean less ambiguity and uncertainty about what to do and how to do it though. :)

As an aside, I recently downloaded a copy of Daggerfall, that I've been wanting to delve into (retro-gaming). I rather enjoyed Morrowind, and I heard that Daggerfall (though the graphics are far outdated and less detailed) was even grander in scale.

I do love epic, expansive, or open ended and free form (non-linear) types of games. Games like the Elite series ( Frontier First Encounters), Mercenary, etc. And though it had its detractors, and was perhaps too ambitious, I also enjoyed the Battlecruiser series of games. Nothing like being able to command a ship or even a fleet of them, land and fly a shuttle through the atmosphere of various planets. You could then land, get into a vehicle and explore the planet surface, or get out and roam on foot. I recall you could even exit your spacecraft, jetpack from ship to ship, or even walk about on the outside of the hull of a massive ship.

Yea, I do/did enjoy the great strategic fun of a Warlords, Warcraft, Starcraft, C&C, etc, or even a simple game of chess, and appeciate the greater detail and intricate MM in games like the Space Empires Series (which attracted me to Shrapnel) and Dom3, but sometimes ya want to get free of constraints, or you want to try something different or take on a role. This is the great thing about mods, themes, scenario-like games, they let you go beyond the ordinary, or let you play the game the way you want to, not the way that someone tells you, you ought to play. :D

[Gandalf Parker]

I liked Daggerfall more than Morrowind.
Daggerfal was definitely a much grander scale, altho Morrowind made an effort to have more random to it.

[chrispedersen]

Yes the Usurpers did not play well.Yes, thank you for reminding us yet again. This is why I don't want the archives deleted, so you can't hide how you treated us.But even playing well there was not a thing we could have done to win that game.So you constantly berated us for no good reason then?

Reality check, we are not you. We do not spend hours upon hours over every little detail as if we had nothing better to do. And if any of us made one mistake with the dozens of small ways you basically wanted to play the game for us you'd let us have it, while saying nothing about what we got right. You even try to micromanage people on other teams.

You've annoyed me to the point where I'm making it publicly known. Maybe I would have held my ire if you said "we didn't play well" instead of dumping it all on the rest of the team.

Oh, and good job leaving Squirreloid in the lurch for a month when you said it'd be a week.

*sigh*

Yes, I lost my temper, I don't want you feeling like you can freely badmouth us after how you treated us. I regret that I didn't act earlier, or constructively, but I needed to state my feelings.

I said "we" didnt' play well. I count myself as head of the Usurpers. I'm sorry you chose to interpret it otherwise. Nonetheless, I am happy to have people compare my performance with your own.

Second, I said the turn I joined (right after turn 22) that the game was lost. In fact the name of the post from Numahar was .. "Have the supplicants won". (something to that effect). Given that the team wanted to continue I said I would give it my best shot.

As for good job leaving squirrel in the lurch - sorry that losing a home and a job qualifies as leaving squirrel in the lurch. Sorry that a trenchdigger cut the cable and left me without phone or internet for three weeks longer than anticipated. I *guess* I could have spliced that cable myself. Shall I forward you the repair order?

As for micromanaging other teams - you *have to* get other teams and players to do what you wish. Diplomacy is a key component of the game. The Supplicants getting Atlantis to attack the AI took Atlantis out of the game as a factor, and gave them a secure flank. I made quite a few efforts, but with no results. Unfortunately no one other that squirrel really believed me that the game was essentially decided if the game continued as it had been for the first 23 turns. And even if the at point if everyone joined up- it would have REQUIRED the crommies to step their game up as well. It would have required unified planning.

I did start trying to steer sept into the idea pooling resources - them forging for bandar thugs, for example. But there wasn't enough time get him to come around to my point of view.

As for "We do not spend hours upon hours over every little detail as if we had nothing better to do".

Algae - given that you voted to continue; given that I informed y'all that I was doing these hours in the middle of the night; given my circumstances; given the effort that I demonstrably put into the turns- I think I had a right to expect some dedication on your part.

It is funny to hear your criticism of my spending "hours upon hours over every little detail" when you couldn't muster enough dedication to build a fort 5 turns. Or blood hunt. Or fix taxation. Or change shape. or... bring a caster to cast arrow fend.

Praise is given where due.

[Numahr]

OK I would like to express that:
- I enjoyed both Squirrel's and Chris' leadership, who always engaged in dialogue when I had a different opinion, thus allowing for constructive dialogue;
- I enjoyed coordinating with my team mates, even though horizontal communication was indeed limited;
- I consider, for my part, that tensions arising from miscommunication are like unavoidable bumps on the road, especially in a situation where we have to change captainship in the middle of the road.

In short I enjoyed this game as long as it lasted, and will be happy to play in team games or otherwise with all of you if the opportunity presents itself :)

Now to give a little insight on the game from my modest perspective:
- Caelum attacked me turn 5-6! with hordes of mammoths... and never stopped. This makes a huge difference with an AI waiting for you to build up before the war starts. Fighting 40 mammoths turn 5 is not easy...
- Then 2 stales, one of which can be attributed to my lack of experience on direct connect (no comment on the other), resulted twice in military disasters;
- change in captainship meant that a lot of resources, in particular research, were lost due to a drastic change in strategy - even though the new strategy seems to have been fully justified;
- change in management style required a bit of time to adapt coordination routines already established;
- some newbie mistakes were committed - at least I learned and I do not commit them in my other MP games.

Again, thanks Sept for organizing the game, congratulations to Supplicants and greetings to my team mates and captains!

[Gandalf Parker]

And so it seems that despite predictions by expert wargamers of crash-and-burn, this went off well.
People did actually join.
The drama was less than apocalyptic.
The team-play was more a plus than a minus.
The AI wasnt stupid and easily defeated.
The server was up to the task.
Direct connect didnt totally suck.
The lack of CBM didnt define end-game?
The BI mod benefited the game?

Any other predictions I missed? So all in all it seems that as a game variant this was worthwhile?
Im all for game variants. But then Im about as ancient to the game as you can get so boredom with the standard games shouldnt be surprising in my case. Its nice to see others opinions also.

I also have an automatic tendency to fight the defaults.
HACK LIFE. REFUSE THE MENU.
FIGHT THE DEFAULTS!

[rdonj]

An entire team dropped out of the game creating an inherently unbalanced scenario.

Captain drama.

The AI was too strong and defeated much of the theoretical point of the game, and left at least one entire team (supplicants) pretty disappointed.

Server drama ensued. Both your server and the much touted llamaserver have their pros and cons, and I have nothing against your server, but it seems to require way too much of your personal attention to get things done, which creates excessive delays in communication, which seems to cause a lot of stales. People have been taking those well, for the most part, but to me that is one of the most offputting things about your server. The llamaserver has its moments too, though :)

The game ended before end game.

It's pretty hard to say whether BI did anything at all, and I don't think anyone has even mentioned the impact of that. Except septimius wishing he could have bought barbarians.



I mean, not that it was a total failure or anything, but you seem to be painting an excessively rosy picture of things. People did get a taste of team play though, and have an idea now of how team games can work. I do like team games and I think that has been a good aspect of this.

[Gandalf Parker]

I mean, not that it was a total failure or anything, but you seem to be painting an excessively rosy picture of things.
Wow surprise. I thought I was already well known for that. Its my job. (see title by name) :)

I have nothing against your server, but it seems to require way too much of your personal attention to get things done
Pros and Cons. PbEM does lend itself more to mid-game changes and menu-driven maintenance. Direct is designed to be started and left running.

Much of the actions have been smoothed for particularly games. Either by the person running it having a login, or by automation such as the original NaV used. But in general Im not big on automating too much for direct connect games in setup or admining.

[rdonj]

It is well known. Which has its pros and cons, I guess. One of the cons being posts like mine pointing that out :)

[Gandalf Parker]

But now we have a whole FORUM for that. :D

[Squirrelloid]

Honestly, I think the fact that this was vanilla really tilted this game for one reason and one reason only: domes are too hard to research to.

At Ench 4-5 (CBM), i'd probably have made them an early priority in a team game. But at Ench 7-8? I'm not sure I'd have had the research to cast a dome and the boosters to do so early enough.

The game basically ended when like 10 fires from afar dropped on BL's capital on turn ~20. There was nothing I could do about this, and it killed a large number of valuable and irreplaceable (can only hire 1/trn) Rishi, plus whatever gear that went down with them. Even if I had dedicated all my research to enchant, I would have *just* gotten to domes, and I needed boosters to cast any of them (and thus constr 4+ research). As BL was the research arm of the team, this was absolutely devastating.

And this ability to nuke a key capital is more pronounced in team games, because there are fewer targets (both because some targets are actually your teammates, and because each team is going to have one target which it hurts more than the others to have it nuked). Add to that one team was actually AI, and there are only two priority targets for a team to go after, which makes remote spells really powerful.

Vanilla's late (and hard to cast!) domes horribly biases the game. Should i play in another vanilla team game (not likely), i know exactly what I'm doing. Choosing a nation with great remote spells, beelining them, and dropping 15-20+ on select capitals in year 2. Instant game over.

This is really lame gameplay. Just another reason CBM > vanilla.

[ano]

But at Ench 7-8? I'm not sure I'd have had the research to cast a dome and the boosters to do so early enough.
Astral dome is Ench 6, as well as Air one and they're perfectly enough. There's no dome at Ench 8.
The game basically ended when like 10 fires from afar dropped on BL's capital on turn ~20.
What? You must be joking. There were 3 fires from afar on about turn 23. And defense is pretty simple - just recruit 40 markata by spending 200 gold and you'll be nearly safe (and nobody will be wasting gems on markata). You do not need domes for this at all. You didn't think of it and this is your mistake and has nothing to do with vanilla or CBM. I'm surprised to hear such things from you, really. I thought you knew the game better.
As BL was the research arm of the team, this was absolutely devastating.
That's exactly what it aimed for.
Choosing a nation with great remote spells, beelining them, and dropping 15-20+ on select capitals in year 2. Instant game over.
LOL. I'd like to see that. There're only two early battle spells - seeking arrow and Fires. Fires are very easy to defend from without ever needing domes (described above). Seeking arrow is rather expensive and you may also defend by moving your mages elsewhere and\or hiring decoy commanders. There're crippling unrest spells and so on but they all are costly and will not win you the game. Probably, Blight and Raging Hearts are the most unpleasant of them, but they're also not game-winning.
Just another reason CBM > vanilla.
Not a single reason here. Just moaning

[Squirrelloid]

There were more than 3 fires from afar. I saw *at least* 5 messages, and probably more. And turn 23 is sort of like turn 20.

Markata do not help that much, and you're still likely to hit some mages. (I've lost 2 commanders in an army of 300 units before to one Fires from Afar, 40 markata aren't going to help much against spammed FfA. Losing *any* Rishi is unacceptable and potentially game losing, and you probably get 2-3 *per FfA* even with 40 markata.)

Now lets compare
CBM
Frost W4 Ench4 8w +1/trn
Fire F4 Ench4 5f +1/trn
Nature N4 Ench 4 8n
Astral S4 Ench 4 5s +1/trn
Air A4 Ench 5 10a

Vanilla
Frost W5 Ench6 15w +1/trn
Fire F4 Ench7 8f +1/trn
Nature N5 Ench7 10n
Astral S4 Ench6 10s +1/trn
Air A5 Ench6 20a

The only one of those BL could possibly cast sans booster is astral, and it requires pearls and dropping extra pearls into it for longer duration. Its a bad deal. Also level 6 research is literally half my research at that point. And the good domes are either absolutely impossible to cast for BL that early (air), or in enchantment 7 (nature - and it requires boosters). Water would have been plausibly decent, but impossible to cast with a national mage, and requires W5 which would even need boosters on most pretenders. (The astral dome rarely if ever gets cast for good reason - its only 50% block for a huge pearl investment. If it blocked 80% like air it *might* be worth it).

Vanilla in general places domes far too high up the research tree, makes them too hard to cast (about half of them are 5 required path length), and makes them far too expensive. Add to that a team game where there are few targets and remote nukes become far too good.

Oh yeah, and FfA is level what, 3? Against my team you could have just chosen *random* capitals since you knew where they were, and it would have been pretty devastating. Heck, you probably had a 1/2 chance of guessing where BLs capital was unless you thought we stuck them on the front line. Or you could have just paid Atlantis for the intel.

If you are scouting (which I can only assume you were), moving Rishi out doesn't help because they show up in scouting reports, and it costs a turn of research, which is somewhere on the order of 200 total RP at that point. That's a substantial and unacceptable hit in research, and they get nailed anyway when you just nuke the province they moved to.

Hell, in a team game with this few teams, domes should be Ench 0. There isn't enough target saturation to prevent focus fire for teams in a non-conflict situation. You could have been dropping FfA on turn 12, trivially.

(I have never seen someone try to drop FfA on a capital, and rarely seen anyone try to drop a remote on a capital. Its generally assumed they're domed (because in CBM that can happen really early) by the time any serious fighting breaks out, and then generally against an opponent you're actively at war against. Casting an offensive remote like FfA against someone on the other side of the map? It only works because there were only 3 teams, and one of the teams was sucking so badly they didn't matter. We might as well have been playing a team blitz, which wasn't exactly expected going in.)

[Gandalf Parker]

I find this interesting.
I hadnt heard of domes being hard to reach as a vanilla problem. Altho considering now I can see why it would It would place emphasis onto armies. Very desirable in some games.

[ano]

There were more than 3 fires from afar. I saw *at least* 5 messages, and probably more. And turn 23 is sort of like turn 20.
We cast it three times that turn and 10 times when you were not there (turn 32, IIRC). There's an archive of our turns attached somewhere above. I could suppose that the Cromites also suddenly decided to cast the Fires From Afar the same turn but I doubt it, especially considering the fact that your forums also mention that there have been exactly three casts.
Markata do not help that much, and you're still likely to hit some mages.
Yes, some mages, but not what you lost in this game. I know the losses were huge. Also, no dome grants you 100% protection or even nears it. And I tell you, noone will cast FfA into a province with 200+ markata. If you're particularly desperate, hire 200 more, they're dirty cheap, and\or move some of your mages elsewhere.

Once again, I don't argue with the suggestion that CBM is a good mod. It is. And domes there are way more balanced than in vanilla. But I assure you that if you thought of the possibility of remote attacks beforehand and did what you should have done, we would not cast them. And no one would. This particular case it is absolutely not a matter of CBM vs Vanilla. It is just lack of thought which everybody can run into.

[Septimius Severus]

In general, I echo Numahr and Gandalf's assesments pretty much. Even though we had a team drop, we decided to forge ahead to keep from the game from stalling out. And I think most had an enjoyable (albiet rather brief) experience.

The Direct Connect and PBEM server systems set up by Gandalf and Llamabeast each have their pros and cons for game admins to consider and I am sure we are all grateful to both of these guys for their work and dedication. Being able to quickly and instantly download and view all of my teams turns was a plus IMO, though it does take getting used to.

You know, some admins seek to avoid or minimize the difficulties and disagreements that can arise in team games by just going with 2 members on a team (really pairs or partnerships). It may be easier (especially when both players are of the same experience level or know each other), but I have always thought that larger teams give you more of the flavor of real team dynamics, interaction, and group identity. Again, its a question of pros and cons.

I would like to add though, as a generally non-competitive player playing a seemingly highly competitive game, I personally think a team should prioritize their overarching team "philosophy" as follows (this is just me of course, I can't dictate how teams choose to play:)):

Goal #1. Have Fun. This is the core reason we play any game.

Goal #2. Learn. The main goal of this series is to allow players to learn how to play the game against both AI opponents and other humans, how to work, communicate, get along with others (even with those they've never played with before), and to benefit from the experience and input of others.

Goal #3. Win. This should be stressed last in my opinion. Winning is nice, but it means absolutely nothing outside of our tiny little fantasy community. But learning how to work together as a group, how to lead or manage a team, how to respect and recognize everyone's unique personalities, now this is something that is a REAL benefit of the team game experience.

Regarding the BI mod, it seems like it did what is was supposed to do, which is limit the AI non-national hordes to mostly archers and other units the creator of the mod deemed most beneficial to the AI. It also has its pros and cons and I am debating various tweaks.

The debate between vanilla, CBM, or any of the other balance mods, well that is a topic that can fill hundreds of threads on its own due to various tastes and opinions.

The game is over, and as far as I'm concerned, everyone did a good job and played well. And I am proud of all of you. As long as you learned and had fun, my goal for the game and the series has been met. :D

[Juffos]

You shouldn't use domes, they encourage turtling. Every mage who isn't blasting enemies on the front deserves to die a horrible death.

[chrispedersen]

I don't actually have a problem with FFA, it just magnifies the issues in the game.

Early on in the game, the usurpers put pd in place - due in large part to being attacked by caelum.

Machacka and shinuyama have good search mages which only arco has on the usurpers team. But due to the pythium, arco, mictlan caelum war (pd) arco searchers were unavailable to search other teammastes.

As for being perfectly safe, I had removed all the equipment from the targets (except one hammer) expecting retribution - and I had recruited like 20 or markata on there.
Markata have a diminished ability to make you safe - as they die in one hit as opposed to 2.

But more to the point, it was a calculated gamble at that point. The usurpers (and the other teams) had a number of weaknesses - it was only a matter of which one were you going to exploit.

1:1 there is a limit to the number of fire gems; ergo flames from afar is not that effective. In a team game fire gems can be pooled, which makes domes more important.

As flames are level 3, and domes are 7ish - there is a huge window where they can't be countered.

Like I said I don't mind ffa - but it just fed into the other issues in the game. You were the death nation - and you were buildling 3x as many clames as we were as the astral nation.

Consider every aspect of the game:

Military force
Remote Attack spells
National mages
SC availability
Thug Availability
Research
Pretenders
Dominion push
Gem generators
Forts
Gem Generators

I'm not taking away from a great strategy, well executed. But if you rate each team on a 1-2-3 scale who *wouldn't* find an advantage for the supplicants. As ano suggested with an 8 vs 4 arrangement.

[Wrana]

Later Septimus asked for two military operation and 2/3 items and this is it.
The problem was that when we asked, you either was unable to do what was asked in time or just plain unavailable... :( Maybe it was partly because we centralised dealing with you so I, for example, offered to purchase something at team forum, then Septimius said our diplomacy guy to reach you... But general impression was just that you are just unreachable. Real-life problems? ;)

For the AI, I dont think the 125PD was the most important thing, the really crasy thing was the 50 to 100 indies per province around turn 5-6 with real armies of mamouth, knights, ... on top of that. The army who killed my elephants was stronger than the PD with certainly around 50 knights of the chalice.
125 PD made their capitals unreachable to scouts and even spies. Not balance-breaking by itself, but just not handy...

[Wrana]

We made only one huge mistake - it was the loss of fully quipped Wight mage (Sickle+ Boots of the Planes) to Abysia because he refused to cast two "Resist Fire" spells (one from Fire school and another one from water+earth). Now I understand they give the same effect and thus don't stack but we didn't realize.

As far as I know, that's not it. AI just doesn't like to cast resistance-gaining spells on units which already have some (50+?) resistance of a given type.

[ano]

Well maybe, but from what I understand these spells just give an identical effect. Phoenix Power would do the thing anyway.

[Wrana]

As an aside, I recently downloaded a copy of Daggerfall, that I've been wanting to delve into (retro-gaming). I rather enjoyed Morrowind, and I heard that Daggerfall (though the graphics are far outdated and less detailed) was even grander in scale.

Well, I like Wizardry series more, even though it had weaker graphics and you had to write down all quests & hints by hans. Morrowind was beautiful, but...
As for space games I think that there wasn't anything greater than ye goode olde Star Control. :) Of course, I don't like flight simulators in general.

[Gandalf Parker]

As space games I would list Stars! and Space Empires IV (but not SE-V) as being enjoyable for the same reasons that Dominions 3 is enjoyable to me. Lots of setup options and different styles to play.

[Septimius Severus]

Star Control was nice, for a space battle simulator. As I recall though, the early ones at least weren't massive 4x type games. I loved Starflight, and Omnitrend's Universe series.

Turns out Daggerfall holds the world record for the largest game world ever made. Hundreds of times larger than WOW and larger than any MMORPG or any other game world apparently yet made including LOTRO.

[Gandalf Parker]

The cool thing about Daggerfall is that you can gain a hero reputation in one territory then become a hated villain in the next door territory. Kill the guards, steal their armor, escape across the border to your home territory and sell it at great prices because of your fame.

[Wrana]

Considering Daggerfall - Yes, but I still like Wizardry quests more. And there you could have quite different reputations for different factions, too. Actually, you could even spy on one faction for another. :D