Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI. Game Over. Supplicants Triumph!

[Septimius Severus]

The game is over. The Supplicants of Set win the game @ turn 33. Game 3 info and updates link:
http://noobsvets.silverforum.net/viewforum.php?f=24

This game is a unique combination of comp stomp, team game, and scenario.

Here are the settings for the second game in the planned three game series:

Era: Middle Age ...... Magic Research: Standard ... Special Site Frequency: 40 ... Indy strength: 4
Score Graphs: On .. HOF Entries: 15 .................... Random Events: Common .... M/R/S Multiples: 125
Renaming: On ........ Starting Provinces:1 ............. Mods: BI 2.1G, Custom AIs ... Server: Dom3Minions (Direct Connect)

Admin: Septimius Severus
Custom AI design and Placement: Gandalf Parker
IP Address: game.dom3minions.com, Port #: 10333
Team Forums: Noobs & Vets HQ (http://noobsvets.silverforum.net)
Score Graphs and Staling Data: http://navii.dom3minions.com/
External Game Timer: http://navii.dom3minions.com/bin/chk.cgi (Click on link and hit refresh button on your browser)

Hosting Interval, Delays, and Rollbacks: Hosting interval is 32 hrs till turn 10, 8 hrs added every 10 turns thereafter. Delays requests of 48 hrs or less granted automatically with a PM to admin and a post on this thread. Longer delays may require the use of subs/alternates. No rollbacks.

Other Special Rules: Ban on global spells till turn 50. Prohibited activities: 1. Casting a global before turn 50, 2. Storming merc cap, 3. Stuffing labs and other forms of cheating, 4. Ignoring pretender restrictions. Penalty = Your team may choose either instant disqualification or public enemy #1 status (all human teams allied against your team).

Map and Team Placement: A random map will be used and human teams will be placed into one of the predefined color coded locations by the roll of a die. By default the Captain and Lieutenant on each team will be placed in front or facing the center with the noobs on the flanks or in the rear unless otherwise requested by team captains.

Player Experience Definitions: For the purposes of this game the following applies:

Veterans- Have 3 or more years of Dominions experience (either SP, MP, or both) and have a good understanding of the game mechanics and most other game aspects.

Intermediates - Have between 1 and 3 years of Dominions experience (either SP, MP, or both) and have a moderate understanding of game mechanics and most other game aspects.

Noobs - Have up to 1 year of Dominions experience (either SP, MP, or both) and have a limited understanding of game mechanics and of most other game aspects.

Team Composition: The teams will consist of 5 teams of 4 players each, plus a single human mercenary nation (optional). The first four teams will be played by human players, the fifth by AI nations. Each team (excepting the AI and mercenary) has the following positions available:

(1) Captain - Captains are the leaders of the team. They generally decide overall team strategy, have decision making authority, recruit players, and assign nations. As leader of the team, they may choose their nation first. If a team is without an advisor then the Captain handles any diplomacy the team wishes to engage in. Ideally, they should be veterans or intermediate level players.

(1) Lieutenant - Lieutenants are the second in command of each team and have all the powers of the Captain in the Captain's absence. Suitable for intermediate level players or intrepid noobs.

(2) Noobs - Noobs are the grunts and make up 1/2 of each human team.

(1) Advisor - Optional, but recommended. Team advisors do not actively play in the game but instead provide advice and guidance to teams. Advisors desiring greater participation may also act as ambassadors for inter-team diplomatic purposes and/or mercenary dealings. Advisors should be veterans or experienced/talented intermediates.

(2) Alternates - Also optional but highly recommended. Each team has two alternate slots available. Like advisors, alternates do not actively play in the game. Their main job is to act as subs for players. When present, they may also choose to act as diplomatic envoys under the advisor or engage in intelligence and espionage activities against other teams. Alternates should be either noobs or intermediates, but not vets.

Mercenary Nation: The Atlantean mercs are a solo nation and are open to any player experience level, but the more experience the better.

Communication: Teams may use the forums I have created here (http://noobsvets.silverforum.net) or make their own, use chat, e-mail, PM, in-game messaging, or any other method of communication they wish.

3 Ways to Win: 1. Conventional win - by annihilation or concession (excluding merc), 2. Insta-win - control 22 of the 33 VP locations (control of a fortification = control). Every marked location on map is worth 1 VP , 3. Most VPs - upon agreement by all captains to end the game, the team with the most VPs wins. Any VP tie will be decided based on most provinces held.

<table width="720" border="1" bordercolor="#000000" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0" height="437"> <col width="110"> <col width="111"> <col width="111"> <col width="119"> <col width="103"> <col width="107"> <tbody><tr valign="TOP"> <td width="110" align="center"> :ghug:

Team Name
</td><td width="111" align="center">http://i44.tinypic.com/mcztok.jpg
Children of Crom
</td><td width="111" align="center">http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/8468/sanguinariumsm.jpg
Sanguinarium
</td> <td width="119" align="center"> http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/1979/supplicantsofsetsm.jpg
Supplicants of Set
</td> <td width="103" align="center"> http://i41.tinypic.com/35d6lut.jpg
Usurpers
</td> <td width="107" align="center"> http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/148/aism.jpg
A.I.T.E.A.M. </td> </tr> <tr valign="TOP"> <td width="110" align="center"> Captain/AI God Nation/Status
</td> <td width="111" align="center"> Septimius Severus
Agartha :aol: </td> <td width="111" align="center"> Vual
Abysia :computer: </td> <td width="119" align="center"> Ano
C'tis :aol: </td> <td width="103" align="center"> Chrispedersen
Bandar Log :aol: </td> <td width="107" align="center"> Notus
Man :computer: </td> </tr> <tr valign="TOP"> <td width="110" align="center"> Lieut/AI God
Nation/Status
</td> <td width="111" align="center"> Wrana
Ulm :aol: </td> <td width="111" align="center">Pelian
Pangaea :rip: </td> <td width="119" align="center"> Natpy
Machaka :aol: </td> <td width="103" align="center"> Algae Nymph
Mictlan :aol: </td> <td width="107"> Zephyrus
Eriu :rip:
</td> </tr> <tr valign="TOP"> <td width="110" align="center"> Player/AI God
Nation/Status
</td> <td width="111" align="center"> Finalgenesis
Marignon :aol: </td> <td width="111" align="center"> Wather
Vanheim :computer: </td> <td width="119" align="center"> Ano
Ermor :aol: </td> <td width="103" align="center"> Numahr
Pythium :aol: </td> <td width="107"> Boreas
Caelum :computer:
</td> </tr> <tr valign="TOP"> <td width="110" align="center"> Player/AI God
Nation/Status
</td> <td width="111" align="center">Cammorak
Ashdod :aol: </td> <td width="111" align="center"> Turioc
Jotunheim :rip: </td> <td width="119" align="center"> Karnoza
Shinuyama :aol: </td> <td width="103" align="center"> Chrispedersen
Arcoscephale :aol: </td> <td width="107"> Eurus
T'ien Ch'i :computer:
</td> </tr> <tr> <td width="110" align="center"> Team Advisor
</td> <td width="111" align="center"> Rdonj
</td> <td width="111" align="center"> N/A
</td> <td width="119" align="center"> Open
</td> <td width="103" align="center">Open
</td> <td width="107" align="center"> N/A
</td> </tr> <tr valign="TOP"> <td width="110" align="center"> Alternate
</td> <td width="111" align="center"> Tonno
</td> <td width="111" align="center"> N/A
</td> <td width="119" align="center"> Open
</td> <td width="103" align="center"> Kupiko
</td> <td width="107" align="center"> N/A
</td> </tr> <tr valign="TOP"> <td width="110" align="center"> Alternate
</td> <td width="111" align="center"> Open
</td> <td width="111" align="center"> N/A
</td> <td width="119" align="center"> Open
</td> <td width="103" align="center"> Open
</td> <td width="107" align="center"> N/A
</td> </tr> <tr valign="TOP"> <td width="110" align="left">http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/4343/freelancerssm.jpgMercenary
</td> <td width="111" align="center"> Zegc-ben
Atlantis :aol: </td> <td colspan="4" width="464" align="center"> </td> </tr> </tbody></table>

Feel free to post suggestions if you have them. Thanks.

Historical links: NvV (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=42028), NvVII (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=42603), NvVIII (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=43195), NvV Noob Forum Archives (http://teamnoob.forumotion.net/forum.htm), NvV Vet Forum Archives (http://teamvet.forumotion.net/index.htm), NaV (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=43928)

http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/4206/naviistartinglocations.th.jpg (http://img64.imageshack.us/i/naviistartinglocations.jpg/)

[Septimius Severus]

http://i43.tinypic.com/sw3kau.jpg http://i42.tinypic.com/2h6zok7.jpg http://i39.tinypic.com/oktrly.jpg http://i39.tinypic.com/2150oye.jpg http://i41.tinypic.com/blbn4.jpg

Noobs and Vets
Chapter II:
Days of Infamy


The world breathed a collective sigh of relief with the defeat of the AI menace. The victory proved that the clans and tribes of noobs and vets could in fact work and live together without trying to murder one other. For the vets, it was an opportunity to mold young noob minds and impart their knowledge to the next generation, whilst noobs and middling types benefited mightily from the sage advise of those skilled in the arts of war.

The AI menace having been vanquished, several rival groups vied for the rulership of the throne of the world and the ascendency of their gods. Powerful and ambitious, the Deva's Darlings (aka the Devas), unleashed a genocidal campaign upon the world, which they termed "Easy-slay". But the plans of the Devas were thwarted by an alliance of tribes led by ACGHHS, who ultimately absorbed all other groups and ascended to dominance ushering in an era of relative peace and stability.

But their was no real unity and soon the old rivalries began to surface. Specialization increased. Soon guilds sprang up, dedicated to this or that magical path and with a focus on other shared traits and a common identity. Along with these guilds came rumors of the existence of several mystery cults centered around places of great magical power. Some of these, it was said, were closely aligned with the magical paths of these guilds.

Soon after strange things started to happen. A flooded cavern was discovered near the ruins of the old kingdom of Fomoria. This cavern led to the discovery of a small network of underground lakes, caverns, and tunnels crisscrossing the entire world rumored to be inhabited by strange and bizarre creatures. Storms and tempests arose at various times in the heavens and lightning struck with peculiar precision, razing whole villages, towns, and cities to the ground.

A bitterly cold wind began to blow, originating from the mountain peaks and from sinister dark clouds that would form from time to time. The trees and grasses began to rustle, sometimes caused by these winds, sometimes seemingly of their own accord. Some of the old timers likened these events to the Days of Infamy associated with the old reign of terror which they insisted was long past. But they were wrong, for these things were not a thing of the past at all, in fact, the Days of the Infamy had only just begun!


Map Legend

• Solid red circle = Primary AI start
<style type="text/css"> <!-- @page { margin: 0.79in } P { margin-bottom: 0.08in } A:link { so-language: zxx } --> </style> o Hollow red circle = Secondary AI start
• • • • White, blue, green, and yellow solid circles = Human team starts
x Purple x = Special magic location
x Blue x = Underground lake cavern sea province

[Squirrelloid]

I hate to point out that MA Mictlan has no blood magic whatsoever.

(The best solution may be to move Mictlan to the AI team - their major element *is* air in MA - so Aby can rejoin the sanguinarium, and moving TC to Crom. TC isn't an awful fit for the team, since their main mages are fairly rainbowed, and do have E and F magic).

[Maerlande]

Do you have any plans to fix the hosting problems?

[chrispedersen]

Last I heard Maer, it was going to be direct connect.

[Septimius Severus]

I hate to point out that MA Mictlan has no blood magic whatsoever.

(The best solution may be to move Mictlan to the AI team - their major element *is* air in MA - so Aby can rejoin the sanguinarium, and moving TC to Crom. TC isn't an awful fit for the team, since their main mages are fairly rainbowed, and do have E and F magic).

True about MA Mictlan, though they do have a tiny random chance at blood and have some astral which is beneficial. I am strongly tempted though to move Abysia back to the Sanguinarium and throw Ashdod back where I had wanted them in the first place and where they are thematic, on Children of Crom, instead of TC. If only the veterans weren't so against Ashdod and Ulm together, even MA Ulm. What do you think Squirrel, should I buck the veterans opinion? Have you changed your thinking about Children of Crom looking at the pretenders they have available to them? Forge Lord, etc?

TC is an excellent nation but is best in the hands of the most experienced players.

Maerlande, there should be no PBEM hosting issues as this game is direct connect.

[Doo]

This looks fantastic!

[Maerlande]

Okay Sept. Interesting way to run a big game.

[Septimius Severus]

Below is just an example of the possible services (and some suggested prices) the Atlantean mercs might offer clients:

a. Scry or scout a province - 30 gold

b. Forge an item (water) - 40 gold and up

c. Site search (water) - 75 gold

d. Stealth preach (for 3 turns?) 100 gold

e. Assassination attempt - 150 gold

f. Remote magical attack (Wolven Winter, etc.) - 250 gold and up

f. Attack a single AI or team province:


small attack - 300 gold
medium attack - 600 gold
kill them all! - 900 gold

g. Attack a team (any available provinces)

3 turn contract - 750 gold
6 turn contract - 1,500 gold

h. Fort toll passage (one way) - 2,500 gold

I. Cap toll passage (one way) - 5,000 gold

[Folket]

I feel sorry for the children of Crom.

[Septimius Severus]

I feel sorry for the children of Crom.

So you believe they should have Ashdod? Even with 3 or 4 Forge Lords, Ulm and Agartha?

[Septimius Severus]

I am starting to learn more and more toward bringing Ashdod back in for purely thematic reasons. It is a tough decision. Are they as unbalancing as Hinnom?

Children of Crom needs something as I see it. Ashdod is just the only proper thematic fit (earth, fire, forging). Ashdod could be relegated to the noob/rear position to limit them somewhat.

Abyssia just belongs on the Sanguinarium, with MA blood pickings being so slim.

Will it result in unstoppable uber SCs running around taking out the other teams before they can ramp up to Tartarians and higher level stuff? Will it make Children of Crom TOO powerful? Resulting in teams feeling the need to ally against them as in game 1?

The responses I have receive seem to be mixed. Are they any other experienced players with an opinion not already expressed?

[chrispedersen]

Ashdod is significantly worse than Hinnom.

[Septimius Severus]

The current lineup will certainly work for my purposes, though having Ashdod in, and Abysia on the blood team would fit the themese more and allow me to tidy up the pretender choices a bit.

While I don't want to create another gimp, there are several measures that could be taken to reduce the threat that Ashdod may pose:

Ensuring they are played by a noob.

Placing them in the rear (default position for noobs).

I could even go a step further and slap Ashdod or the team with a "no first attack" rule vs other humans (we used something similar against the vets in one of the NvV games, if I recall) except through a proxy such as the merc.

While I don't want to create another gimp, there are things that can be done to handicap them and/or perhaps check their early aggression if it bothers other teams that much. But forging, is what the Children do. Its their thing.

So far no other feedback, or Captain signups. What a shame, I think the game/scenario has great potential. Must be only me and Doo and/or the overcommitment/too many games not enough players issue. :D

[rdonj]

Okay, here is my proposal for making ashdod playable. They may not take earth or nature at above a level of 6 or take any level 9+ blesses. If you do that, then they can be played, otherwise it's just a bad idea :P

[Cammorak]

If it makes things easier, I've been playing SP for a while now and looking for a newbie MP slot. I'd be more than happy to volunteer for Ashdod as a green newb.

[Maerlande]

I don't think any of those are the issue Sept. Your games are notorious for being too complicated and not much fun. I think you've run out of vets willing to do the horrendous amounts of work required.

But good luck. Maybe there are a few still willing. I won't be playing in anymore of your games.

[chrispedersen]

Maer,

I understand your sentiments, as well as the in game issues.
But I think it is unnecessary to say something bad about another persons efforts. Setting up a game is hard; Sept puts a lot of work and effort into creating new ideas and I think that is to be commended.

For the record, I am willing to captain a team. I have declined heretofore, as I thought people might be tired of *me*, and I wanted to give others the chance to step up.

Lastly, I think that the pairing of captains with new players is a great idea that really helps new players learn some of the intricacies of dominions. His format encourages that, and I think is beneficial to the dominions community as a whole.

[chrispedersen]

I could live with Rdonj's suggestions for ashdod.

[Septimius Severus]

Thank you Cammorak for volunteering for Ashdod, and Doo for your interest. Most certainly it would be proper for Ashdod to be played by a noob. And thanks Chris for pointing out some things.

Rdonj's proposal does sound like it will work just fine and would enable me to switch Absyia back to the blood team where they belong and adjust the pretender options accordingly.

Maerlande is correct on one thing, the bigger issue is can we get the captains we need.

I certainly hope my games are not notoriously complicated and not fun. I've seen many a game that was much more complicated for noobs. Server issues aside (that was really out my control), I did have a good amount of fun last game and learned alot. And I may be wrong, but many people seemed to have enjoyed the NvV series of game. If I didn't they did, I never would have tried again.

As for horrendous amounts of work, I certainly am not expecting any player to do 1/10 of the amount of work that has been required of myself or Gandalf.

The problem is Maerlande, many experienced players may be too stilted. Too convinced that this way or that way is the ONLY way to play. Team games do require a bit more effort and a different way of thinking, and it may be that many just prefer playing the same old way they've been playing and won't consider alternative ideas and concepts that go beyond maybe changing a few game settings, or using random nation assignments. If that is the best we can come up with, with no real variety, tis a sad state of affairs. And many may just hold grudges outside of the game, and that is just wrong thinking and childish in my opinion.

It is always difficult recruiting leaders, people with courage, willing to try new things, who are willing to unselfishly play not to garner wins or beat up on noobs, who don't want the effort or burden of working with other people or having rank amateurs on their team, but for the sake of the new player and education. And take on the responsibility for the team. And that is all I am really asking people to do. It is shame and a loss for the community. But I've presented the idea, I've poured countless hours of work into these games, the rest is up to you guys.

[Sombre]

The problem is Maerlande, many experienced players may be too stilted. Too convinced that this way or that way is the ONLY way to play. Team games do require a bit more effort and a different way of thinking, and it may be that many just prefer playing the same old way they've been playing and won't consider alternative ideas and concepts that go beyond maybe changing a few game settings, or using random nation assignments. If that is the best we can come up with, with no real variety, tis a sad state of affairs. And many may just hold grudges outside of the game, and that is just wrong thinking and childish in my opinion.

Scruntlefut was a team game with a variety of settings beyond the norm. It has a sequel coming up. Veterans are happy to play in it. This is just one example of the many unusual or team based games veteran players are happy to take part in.

[Septimius Severus]

Oh, I am not running down vets or anything. And there is some variety and some games that buck the apparent norm here.

Sometimes, you can't let past experiences color your thinking or harden your feelings. If Maerlande or any vet likes the concept of this game, then by all means, don't let my being the admin deter you from taking part. I won't be playing unless I have to fill a slot anyway.

As Chris pointed out, people who admin games, create mods, run servers for us, etc, do so because they want to. They give of their time freely to the community. Yet people are often quick to judge them or to attack or just don't appreciate the effort. They are not robots, are not perfect, but do the best they can.

I believe with Ashdod, the Children of Crom will have a better chance. They do have a lot going for them.

[Septimius Severus]

I've opened up the general recruiting. Noobs and intermediates can now join on the team of your choice. I have added Ashdod to the Children of Crom and Abysia back to the Sanguinarium. I've also updated the NaV II Teams and Themes.pdf located on the main post.

For those celebrating the holiday, have a good Easter.

[Penguin Zero]

As a rank noob, I'm interested in signing up. Do we pick a specific nation, or just the team? In the former case, I'd like to request Arcoscephale; in the latter, the Usurpers in general.

[13lackGu4rd]

so much has been said about your games sept, both good and bad alike. might as well give it a shot myself, as an intermediate newbie ;)

wanna give MA Abysia a shot in multiplayer, and this environment seems to be more forgiving than the average MP game around...

[Septimius Severus]

Penguin, at this stage you specify what team you'd like to join on. Once we get ready to begin, who plays which nation can be sorted out among you and your team members and/or by captains.

Penguin, I've got you down in a Noob slot for the Usurpers.

BlackGuard, welcome, good to see you to joining and wishing to decide for yourself. While team nations are not being assigned yet, your mention of Abysia, indicates to me you prefer the Sanguinarium. If this is not correct just let me know.

Cammorak, I'm guessing you want a noob slot on Children of Crom.

Main post roster has been updated.

The merc position is also available, while probably best suited for an intermediate level player or so, anyone who wants to have have fun trying out the concept (including any noobs) are welcome to choose it. It stands to be a quite interesting position.

[Cammorak]

You're correct. One for Children of Crom. Always liked Howard anyway.

[NooBliss]

I'd like to sign up as a noob, assign me to some team please. No preferences yet. :)

Oh, and if we get to choose race, Shinuyama please. For the sheer joy of big samurai gobos.

[zegc-ben]

I am a MP noob (my first game is running) but I have a solid SP experience. I would like to give a try to the atlantean mercs (it will be a great place to see a full game without much risk of getting eliminated). May I propose that the mercs should be able to ask for gems for their services since if this is not the case they may end with a huge amont of gold but not enough gems to do anything appart from other players rituals and items.

[Septimius Severus]

Noobliss, I am putting you on the Supplicants of Set due to your mention of Shinuyama. You'll likely be able to switch before beginning if you decide you prefer another team.

Zegc-ben, if you'd like the Atlantian mercs, I'm sure you'll have fun with it. Sorta lets you be your own captain and do what you like, experiment, and just have fun, without having to worry about winning the game in the end. And you also learn more about water magic.

You'll generally have a very good supply of water gems (the merc cap actually sits on one of the five magic locations), so you shouldn't be hard pressed for water gems, but if you find you want to ask for gems in other paths for forging and so forth, once you branch out a bit, that is fine. I specified gold for the main services really (like contracted attacks) so it would not bias against one team or another. Gold is something every team should have in relatively equal proportions. Main roster updated.

[pyg]

I'll play with StaggerLee and 13lackGu4rd, sign me up. If we don't find an appropriate captain though I may drop. Team Sanguinarium: Killing chicks for fun and profit. There will be BLOOD (lots)!

[Stagger Lee]

Hey Sept. I recently failed miserably in an all blood nation game. If the Sanguinarium still needs a noob, I'd like to join up.

[Septimius Severus]

Alright Pyg welcome back, I'm putting you in the Lieutenant/intermediate slot on the Sanguinarium (I believe you've reached the 1 year threshold and have probably got enough experience to go intermediate).

Stagger, you can have the last noob slot on the Sanguinarium. All your team needs then is a captain, either another intermediate or vet. Or, if you get another noob, that would catapult Pyg to the captaincy. :D

Game note: I may reduce the insta-win VP threshold from 22 to 20 out of 33 to make that victory condition a bit easier. A few minor tweaks to the Team and Themes.pdf may be forthcoming (regarding the merc and gold, etc). Gandalf has the option of Mictlan or T'ien Chi' for the AI team. Either one will work as they both are rainbow type nations with decent air access and a small air gem income. Mictlan leans a bit more toward nature, but both have nature capable mages as well.

[Septimius Severus]

I've been asked by the Sanguinarium if they could start using the team forums. I've agreed. As teams fill up, any team who wants may do likewise (though you may wish to wait for more overall players). Anyone rejoining us from NaV I already has accounts on the forum, new players just need to register. The forum link is below and is also posted on the opening post of the thread:

http://noobsvets.silverforum.net/

We are still in need of captains. At the very least someone to act as a representative for the team when hiring the services of the Atlantean Mercs, for the third victory option, and as the contact person with regard to any inter-team diplomacy the team wishes to engage in.

Remember, while the game gives teams the option of engaging in diplomacy with other teams, your team can certainly choose to play it straight the whole way through and perhaps save yourselves some extra communication work. The VPs will also tend to discourage any long term alliances.

[Septimius Severus]

Pyg and Co, you guys are good to go on the team forums.

[chrispedersen]

Hmm, sept, fyi, my interest in the game (playing) was strictly limited to mictlan.

[Septimius Severus]

Hmm, sept, fyi, my interest in the game (playing) was strictly limited to mictlan.

Understood, I know you are a fan of Mictlan. I believe Abysia to be a better fit for the blood team though, that is with Ashdod in, without Ashdod, Mictlan on the Sangiunarium is probably the best lineup for the blood team that could be constructed within the theme framework.

[Septimius Severus]

Following up an idea expressed in the below thread:

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showpost.php?p=739691&postcount=27

What do you all think of giving captains the option of disbanding the team or even of allowing individual team members the option of becoming free agents or solo players like the merc? I could add a free agent column to the team roster setup to make tracking this a bit easier.

Of course the focus of the game is on team identity, cohesion, and working together through thick and thin (thus the themes), but it would give more freedom to individual players and/or more power to captains though they'd have a harder time of it vs teams that stay together. I could institute an alternative VP condition for the newly solo'ed player or could leave the VP requirements as they are to discourage the would-be solo player from going it alone. The actual need to do this with the captain already having the ability to drop players is questionable but having either option might be nice.

[Septimius Severus]

*Bump*

[Kupiko]

Hi Sept, I'd like to join Usurpers as a noob. Thx

[zegc-ben]

I agree that since the teams will be made of people who did'nt knew each other before we may have to deal with conflits inside the teams. However I do'nt think any of us want to allow a captain to get rid of one of his one player to get the advantages of a bigger empire in term of research or dominion. So maybe one solution will be to make changes in teams possible but only with the agreement of a greater (hopefully neutral) party. It could be either the other players or (and that would be better) an exterior admin. That way we will be able to distinguish between elimination of a fellow player for strategic reasons and exclusion of somebody who is making the team unmanageable.

All this being said I will be alone in my deep seas so that's none of my business.

By the way looking at the map and at the rules for the mercs I was thinking that I wont be able to expand outside of the deep sea provinces :
I start right in the middle of the AI and the corner provinces are only one province away from capitals so my ground provinces will be either in the middle of 4 allied AI that I am not allowed to attack or neigbourg of some players capital. I should have more room (more underwater cave) or at least the ability to fight the AI.

[Septimius Severus]

Hello, Kupiko. Ok I'm putting you on the Usurpers.

Thanks for the response Zenc. Captains have always generally had the right to replace players if necessary. Doesn't really happen all that much (sometimes finding a sub can be harder than just working on the player that is falling behind) but it does happen.

Haven't really decided whether or not to give the option to disband to captains or individual team members the option to go solo. Even it it were an option, any player doing it would really be at a serious disadvantage vs full teams so I don't think anyone would ever really excerise it, except in the case of extreme communication difficulties (where a team or individual players couldn't work things out). But it might make some FFA minded players happier having that option. :)

Yes, the sea provinces are kinda limited on this map (partly due to the difficulty in placing more of them strategically), but remember the merc can attack indies at will, can counterattack, and Atlantis does have a good number of amphibious troops including their sacreds. You'll be doing most of your fighting on land anyway.

If you keep your prices competitive or offer discounts on AI attacks, there shouldn't be a shortage of work or targets of the Human or AI variety. You'll also have a good deal of coastal provinces which can be used to recruit some special units. If I can find a way to squeeze in a few more and have them distributed evenly without any image editing, I might. :D

[Septimius Severus]

Decided against allowing any breaking away by individual team members. The only ones who might remotely decide to do would be the more experienced players and since our team size and associated themes are fixed, winning solo would be hard for even the best players to do.

Zegc, been looking at the map. There's really no place else I can add more underground sea cavern provinces (without image editing and adding more provinces to the map) that would not obstruct the land game or the AI and be evenly and equally distributed at the same time. The corners are ideal because of this that's why they are used. The only other possible place would be 4 provinces placed on the N,S,E,W edges of the map near the center. Even in this case, the AI and land players would need maneuver around them to some degree. If I can add em reasonably, don't worry, the merc will be given what they need to ensure they can take most of the indy center comfortably.

Slots are still available on the following teams:

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:y6UXXsdyilyQ1M:http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_2TCYQxSUqGQ/SxrnUt6l3mI/AAAAAAAAFIE/g5M-g6A9WDg/s200/Conan-Sword_of_the_Father-Sky.jpg

Children of Crom

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:8cnucfHtUly9CM:http://inkwellideas.com/images/dead/Papyrus_of_Ani_Plate3_section-Book_of_the_Dead.jpg


Supplicants of Set


http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:pPD3O_6cIkGOFM:http://www.ratewall.com/cpics/53c7eb43-7efd-4f82-bf8a-55297664fd76_vampires_salems_lot.jpg


The Sanguinarium


http://thumbs4.ebaystatic.com/m/mokMs4mJkOGsZZbvk7mEh0g/140.jpg


The Usurpers

[Jorus]

like to play as NOOOB

[Septimius Severus]

like to play as NOOOB

Welcome Jorus. Two noob only slots still left, your choice of:

Supplicants of Set

or

Children of Crom

Listen to the The Riddle of Steel:

http://limelinx.com/files/4d2729d113a556c3a2fca03abc277fc3

[Jorus]

Jeez, after hearing that - how can I not choose for Crom??

[pyg]

like to play as NOOOB

Slippery slope, that extra 0. (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=44936)

[Septimius Severus]

Jeez, after hearing that - how can I not choose for Crom??

Heh heh. One of my favorite movies, the musical score is excellent. Was actually going name the death team The Children of Doom, there's even a unique magic site in the game named The Mountain of Power (actually a blood site) complete with recruitable horned serpents:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_4pmUNQE7llI/SeKLNvCKcYI/AAAAAAAAH_o/RDXz_tBwdHk/s400/3)-Thulsa-Doom-original.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAUW0eq0BLA&NR=1

Your on the Children of Crom team.

[Septimius Severus]

Update: A few minor tweaks to NaV II Teams & Themes.PDF (Dracolich added, gold and/or gems may now accepted as merc payment, ec.)

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=9744&stc=1&d=1271357106

[DrPraetorious]

Very well, I will captain Sanguinarium. If I'm Abysia can I take a Great Warlock?

[DrPraetorious]

Besides the Warlock, for purely thematic purposes, shouldn't we be allowed to take the Skratti, the Gorgon, the Allfather and the Freak Lord?

Alternatively, will the mod over-ride our available pretenders/nation with the list available for the faction? In particular, forcing Vanheim to take a Vampire Queen seems a bit harsh.

b/c

Pretender A J P V
Fountain of Blood + - + -
Vampire Queen + + + +
Lord of the Wild - - + -
Great Black Bull - - + -
Great White Bull - - + -
Carrion Dragon - - + -
Dracolich - + - -
Bog Mummy - + - -
Moloch + - - -
Lord of Fertility - - + -
Mother of Lions - - + -

[pyg]

Very well, I will captain Sanguinarium. If I'm Abysia can I take a Great Warlock?

Kick ***! The Sanguinarium welcome our Dr.Dr. overlords.

[vfb]

Ashdod plz.

[Frozen Lama]

Ashdod plz.

Edit: meme ninja'd

[vfb]

It's okay, we can be the Ashdod team, I think. I don't see anything in the rules prohibiting that. Just merge in the all-Ashdod mod. How many more Ashdods do we need?

[Septimius Severus]

Besides the Warlock, for purely thematic purposes, shouldn't we be allowed to take the Skratti, the Gorgon, the Allfather and the Freak Lord?

Alternatively, will the mod over-ride our available pretenders/nation with the list available for the faction? In particular, forcing Vanheim to take a Vampire Queen seems a bit harsh.


Welcome to the Sanguinarium Dr.

All the cheap rainbow pretenders of the 10 magic path cost have generally been excluded this game. This was partly done to protect each teams main thematic path, i.e. make it more difficult/expensive, for example, for the earth team to take blood (via vampire queen, moloch, or whatever pretenders they had) or delve into death from the start.

The Sanguinarium presented some issues though (due to Vanheim and Jotunheim primarily), and I ended up having to give them the choice of the Vampire Queen, and Bog Mummy (even though both infringe on the Supplicants death path) to make sure both nations had at least something to choose from that had some blood to start. The dracolich and the carrion Dragon, are exclusive to your teams nations but probably should've been excluded due to them having no blood. I threw them to give your a team a few more pretender choices and due to the slight death flavor of your team (they've really got 1 primary path and two secondary paths) and to give y'all at least some sort of dragon. So the only non-rainbow blood pretender (and it turns out the only pretender) available to Vanheim is the Vampire Queen. I'd like your team to stick with the available pretender choices and to go blood whenever/wherever possible to fit with your primary blood theme. So 2 Fountains of Blood, 2 Vampire Queens (or a bog Mummy and a Vampire Queen) are certainly possible.

The gorgon, being both earth and death was excluded for these reasons.

I am not using a mod for this. All thematic/scenario restrictions are self imposed, but nonetheless mandatory. There's also an issue with the Lady of Fortune and the Old Man of the Sea along this same vein on the Usurpers (delving into the water path of the merc) which may be corrected.

VFB, you can certainly take over The Children of Crom, I am sure you'll do much better job as captain than I would vs. the Dr. :) Though Ashdod has some restrictions you might not like. Hehe.

[rdonj]

Perhaps you could consider allowing more thematic rainbow-esque mages so long as they took a certain minimum amount of their main magic path? So for example the warlock could be required to have 4-6 as a minimum blood magic amount before being allowed to take other paths. Or just require a minimum amount of main path magic in all pretenders and lift pretender restrictions altogether (though I can see how you wouldn't want to, especially after expending all that brainpower on the matter). Just a thought. Not even sure those who might want to take such a pretender would be happy with that :P Blood uses fire, water, earth, death, nature and astral in many of its spells, so blood is kind of rainbow-flavoured anyway ;)

[pyg]

The Sanguinarium presented some issues though (due to Vanheim and Jotunheim primarily), and I ended up having to give them the choice of the Vampire Queen, and Bog Mummy (even though both infringe on the Supplicants death path) to make sure both nations had at least something to choose from that had some blood to start. The dracolich and the carrion Dragon, are exclusive to your teams nations but probably should've been excluded due to them having no blood. I threw them to give your a team a few more pretender choices and due to the slight death flavor of your team (they've really got 1 primary path and two secondary paths) and to give y'all at least some sort of dragon. So the only non-rainbow blood pretender (and it turns out the only pretender) available to Vanheim is the Vampire Queen. I'd like your team to stick with the available pretender choices and to go blood whenever/wherever possible to fit with your primary blood theme. So 2 Fountains of Blood, 2 Vampire Queens (or a bog Mummy and a Vampire Queen) are certainly possible.

The gorgon, being both earth and death was excluded for these reasons.


Hmmm, the Gorgon, being both earth and nature is exclusive to Pangaea as is the Carrion Dragon which is nature and death.

[DrPraetorious]

The vampire queen is essentially a gag-pretender. She's completely worthless, has a domstr of 1, and costs a huge heap of points. There's a history here that I don't want to delve into, but basically she was viewed as massively overpowered in dominions II because someone was cheating.

Since our *official* secondary path is nature, if we don't want a mod to let Vanheim have a Fountain of Blood or a Moloch*, how about a green dragon for Vanheim? My issue with these restrictions is that I don't think they'll have the desired effect - my planned list of pretender builds was all scales, both because that's what blood nations *want*, and because these pretenders are mostly pretty worthless.

* if we had a Mod, I'd take four molochs. Wouldn't that be themey, hmm?

[Sombre]

I'm confused as to why balance would be a concern when choosing a pretender - this game isn't about balance is it?

[DrPraetorious]

@Sombre -
Well, it *is* a competitive game and I think people are still expected to have a strategy, and to play-to-win, yeah? I just don't like seeing Vanheim screwed over.

Instead, you could let everyone take whatever pretender *chassis* they want, but require that everyone's god be at least A2B1 (where A and B are the primary and secondary team paths), and require the path scores for every pretender to be A > B > any other path. This would enable us to have a red dragon with A3 (say), but seriously discourage that because it would need to shell out even more points for B5 and N4.

Alternately, a plan that I now think is stupid: add a moderately-expensive, official-path heavy pretender based on the national signature-chassis for each nation, and require everyone to take it.

For example, we could have:
Great Warlock, B3N2S1F1, domstr 3, 175 pts
Bog Mummy, B3N2D1W1, domstr 3, 250 pts
All-father, B3N2A1D1, domstr 3, 225 pts
Gorgon, B3N3E2, domstr 3, 250 pts

And boost all the path-costs to 80.

Note that these are marginally cheaper than taking B3 on the relevant deities, and a *lot* cheaper if we were then to take B7 or B8 - which we would be organically encouraged-but-not-required to do.

You could make a similar set of 175-250 pt, 8 pick domstr 3 chassis for each of the nations in play.

But this would require a lot of modding and whining while simply requiring everyone on team X to take more-blood-on-their-god-than-any-other-path is I think more fair and easier to enforce.

[Squirrelloid]

I sympathize with Dr. P. Vamp Queen is unplayably bad. Heck, she's barely playable in CBM, and her cost has been *drastically* slashed.

[Septimius Severus]

I originally had the Green Dragon and the Manticore over on the Sanguinarium side to give Van and Jottun more choices. I moved the Green Dragon over to the Supplicants side as I felt it more in keeping with the serpents/poison theme of the death team. But DrP, if having the Green Dragon available for Vanheim/Jotunheim will satisfy your team, that's no problem. The death team can certainly live without it.

Alternatively, as rdonj and DrP hinted, I might certainly consider allowing certain thematic rainbow pretenders for each team as well (the ones that do not conflict with the other main paths of teams) but yes you'd be restricted to a single path for simplicity sake. So a great Warlock with only blood magic would be fine by me. As would a Great Sage for the Usurpers restricted to Astral. As would a Crone with only death on the death team, etc. If we wanted to complicate it a bit further, sure you could also add some secondary path magic as well, no problem, but no other paths would be allowed on those rainbows. I did want to preserve the merc's water capability, as the Usurpers secondary path is also the main path of the merc. But if Zegc, doesn't object I see no problem. The merc is not a team strictly speaking and is not playing to win. So I have no problem with single or primary paths only on these rainbows.

So your choice guys. Green dragon or the addition of selected rainbow pretenders with magic path restrictions to all teams. If I go the second route, I'd remove the Carrion Dragon, Dracolich, and Vamp queen and any others that conflict. The Gorgon is out, not only because of the earth magic, but it is one hell of a good expander. Don't want to give DrP's team too much. :D

The pretender choices should be able to be verified fairly easily, so I am not really worried about that. As sombre noted, RPG first, balance is second. But I want people to feel comfortable.

Just to note:

There were 3 considerations I was looking for with regard to pretender choices:

1 - I wanted each team/faction to have different pretenders (no two teams should have the same pretender).

2 - I wanted these pretenders to fit in with the theme of the team.

3 - I wanted to preserve the main paths of each team as much as possible at the start hence the exclusion of the cheap (10 magic path cost) rainbows.

[DrPraetorious]

Green Dragon for Vanheim is fine from a balance perspective; if we're really worried about theme I think it'd be better to mod vanheim so they could take a B pretender who is actually good, but I can fully understand not wanting an extra mod.

If we had more time and will, I'd make a custom "prince" pretender for each nation, declare them all siblings and we'd mod those in:

Abysia gets the Dark Son of Rhuax, who is basically just a Moloch.
Jothunheim gets an Ice Devil (bigger and stronger than a Moloch, but not winged.)
Pangaea gets a Gorgon, but with B instead of E, and the demon tag (Daughter of the Black Hind? That's a cool name.)
Vanheim would get Loki - presumably BFA and he shapeshifts between a regular van and a winged devil.

---

Similarly, the usurpers would get four flavors of Virtue; the Supplicants of Set would get four flavors of the Prince of Death, and the Children of Chrom would get four flavors of the Lion-headed dude who causes fear, I guess (an acceptable supercombatant.)

[Septimius Severus]

A lot can be done with pretenders via the map file as well. But yes, the 4th consideration was doing this without the need of any mods and from the in-game pretender set up screen.

So you and everyone else sure you don't want the rainbow pretender option (limited to one or two paths)? I sorta like that idea, but it depends on how everyone else feels, don't want to complicate anything more than necessary. But if people want those cheap rainbows that sounds like the easiest way to go.

On a side note: I do like the idea of a special commander available to each team's flagship nation or captain though. Ulm, Ermor, Abysia, and R'lyeh for instance. Each team gets one. An uber commander alligned with the main path of each team. Though unlike a pretender, a commander cannot be recalled. So it must be used wisely. But I guess the random in-game heroes pretty much answer this function to a small degree.

[chrispedersen]

Green Dragon for Vanheim is fine from a balance perspective; if we're really worried about theme I think it'd be better to mod vanheim so they could take a B pretender who is actually good, but I can fully understand not wanting an extra mod.

If we had more time and will, I'd make a custom "prince" pretender for each nation, declare them all siblings and we'd mod those in:

Abysia gets the Dark Son of Rhuax, who is basically just a Moloch.
Jothunheim gets an Ice Devil (bigger and stronger than a Moloch, but not winged.)
Pangaea gets a Gorgon, but with B instead of E, and the demon tag (Daughter of the Black Hind? That's a cool name.)
Vanheim would get Loki - presumably BFA and he shapeshifts between a regular van and a winged devil.

---

Similarly, the usurpers would get four flavors of Virtue; the Supplicants of Set would get four flavors of the Prince of Death, and the Children of Chrom would get four flavors of the Lion-headed dude who causes fear, I guess (an acceptable supercombatant.)


Love the idea of loki.

[Maerlande]

Maybe you should start a poll.

[Septimius Severus]

Some of those pretenders do sound cool.

Hmm, for simplicities sake, and working without a mod, in the meantime, to allow more pretenders, and to prevent high level path incursions and blesses that might occur with the Bog Mummy, Dracolich, and the like, it may be best to leave the Green Dragon on the Supplicants. And allow all the thematic rainbows where appropriate for each team. And all pretenders will simply be limited to magic in their team's primary and secondary paths.

So:

The Children of Crom would now have access to the Master Alchemist (losses Great Mother).

The Sangiunarium gains access to the Freak Lord, Great Warlock, b**ch Queen, Skratti, and Master Druid. (Loses Dracolich, Carrion Dragon, Moloch, Bog Mummy, and Vamp Queen).

The Supplicants gain access to the Crone and the Serpent King (Lose Bakemono Kunshu).

The Usurpers gain access to the Divine Emperor and Great Sage.

The AITEAM gains Arch Druid, Arch Seraph (Loses Phoenix).

Altantian Mercs gain the Aquatic (crabby) Arch Mage and Great Seer of the Deeps.

Keeps things simple, easy to verify. Most of your low level diversity will come from your regular mages, indies, and from the magic locations anyway. Higher levels in paths outside your Primary and Secondary will require either empowerment or boosters. Mercs get compensated for the water incursion of the Usurper pretender choices with an astral choice. The Monolith is the only exception to this straighforward rule on the AITEAM, as Gandalf needs an immobile pretender to choose from (but he can probably drop the astral from it).

Sound workable?

[DrPraetorious]

Issue is, no-one takes a rainbow and doesn't make them a rainbow. So unless you want to allow people to take a wide mix of paths, allowing them the "option" of taking a Great Warlock etc. is pretty pointless, and I'd rather just have the Green Dragon and be done with it. If Vanheims only options are vampire queen and freak lord with no non-blood magic, vanheim will take an imprisoned B4 freaklord and that's kinda boring. This is especially boring because the B-team ought to be encouraged to take a very high domstr, and use the blood sac for offensive dominion push.

If you really want to restrict us to BN on our pretenders, you need either to let us choose all the available BN non-rainbow pretenders (thus, the Green Dragon - this would be satisfactory as I said), or you need to mod the game to give us access to whatever pretender menu you think fits. Your other teams have similar issues, by the way (although I haven't looked as closely), but I'll let the team captains there make whatever case they wish to make.

[Septimius Severus]

If you really want to restrict us to BN on our pretenders, you need either to let us choose all the available BN non-rainbow pretenders (thus, the Green Dragon - this would be satisfactory as I said)

Thanks for the reply DrP.

That works for me. Your team already has access to all available non-rainbows with only native N and/or B. Having the green dragon doesn't really both me as much as the bog mummy, dracolich, and such with native death. So you can have it.

So Vanheim will now have access to the following pretender choices with the rainbows in:

Green Dragon, Freak Lord (b1), Bi*ch Queen (n1, shapeshift into a quasi SC), and Master Druid (n1).

Every nations pretender choices are going to be somewhat limited without a mod. Some more than others. This was done purposely, so it takes a bit of planning and strategy on each teams part. But that is the goal and point of the themes and scenario. However with the addition of these rainbows, the situation is improved in the most extreme cases. And rainbows do still offer the benefit of a cheaper choice, even if limited to two paths like all the other gods. i.e. Taking B4 + n4 on a green dragon leaves you with 120 points left over, while, the same magic on a Freak Lord gives you 180 points left over to play around with (plus a domstr of 3 instead of 1).

I'll make the changes to the .pdf on the main post.

I think this is probably the simplest way to handle it without a mod or map edits and is easiest to remember and verify. Now if an unbiased (preferably non playing party wants to help out with a mod that does the four things I mentioned that is fine as well). ;)

[ano]

Hello everybody.
I think I and Natpy will fill the first two spots in the death team.

p.s. Wow. Haven't been here for ages :)

[Septimius Severus]

Hello everybody.
I think I and Natpy will fill the first two spots in the death team.

p.s. Wow. Haven't been here for ages :)

Ok, hello Ano, I'll put you all in for the Supplicants for now.

I'm updating the Teams&Themes.pdf (adding in the rainbows/making the change on the green dragon) and will upload it later tonight (I'll post a message when its been updated).

[ano]

Oh, fine. Glad to here this.
Since I'm the first time in your games, I have some questions under way.

1. Are the starts in each team random or predefined? Can we choose which nation starts where?
2. I didn't quite understand this rule:
Insta-win - control 22 of the 33 VP locations (control of a fortification = control).
Does it mean that if you beat PD of a castle with a VP this counts as a taken VP? Seems a bit strange. Big (and even not big) teleporting guys can easily decide this game.
3. If you are an admin of a forum, you have an access to all topics, don't you? Or is there a way to protect our part with a password or something. I don't mean to distrust you, I just don't like security holes and want to be aware of them :)
4. Can we download and test the map?

Thanks in advance! Also, thanks for organization and everything. Being an organizer myself, I understand how much work you put into this.

[ano]

And NooBliss, please enable private messaging at your profile. I can't send a message to you.

[NooBliss]

Hummm... And how do I do that?.. Sorry, cant find such setting in my profile.

[ano]

Go to your profile -> choose "Edit Options" form the left menu -> There's a checkbox "Enable Private Messaging" under a section "Private Messaging"

[Septimius Severus]

Oh, fine. Glad to here this.
Since I'm the first time in your games, I have some questions under way.

Thats fine ano, let me answer your questions:


1. Are the starts in each team random or predefined? Can we choose which nation starts where?


On the larger scene, which team starts where (blue, green, yellow, etc) will be determined by a random die roll.

Within each team (which is I think your question), the captain has discretion as to which of his teams nations will be placed in their slots. By default (unless the captain specifies otherwise) whatever nations are played by the noobs, will be placed in the two rearward positions at the borders of the map. So if you want certain nations in the forward positions, assign them to yourself or your leuitenant. This is done so that the most experienced players are facing the greatest danger. After you decide which nations each team member will have, if you decide you want a noob upfront instead, playing whatever nation, you can indicate that to me in your team assignment PM.


2. I didn't quite understand this rule:
Insta-win - control 22 of the 33 VP locations (control of a fortification = control).
Does it mean that if you beat PD of a castle with a VP this counts as a taken VP? Seems a bit strange. Big (and even not big) teleporting guys can easily decide this game.
No, whoever holds the castle (if one is present) in a given VP location is said to control the VP location. Beating the province PD and any patrolling forces itself does not get you control. This is the way the game handles who owns the VP when two players are vying for the same province.

3. If you are an admin of a forum, you have an access to all topics, don't you? Or is there a way to protect our part with a password or something. I don't mean to distrust you, I just don't like security holes and want to be aware of them :)

That is a natural concern, especially if I end up having to play in the game, which it looks like I might. While I have access, I never peep at any other teams forum if I am in the game. I can also remove my own permissions for your team's forums and if I had a co-admin, that person could remove my permissions without me being able to change them back. I'll check to see if there's a way to let you set a password that I wouldn't have access to, but I don't know. Its a trust thing really with any admin in a game.

4. Can we download and test the map?

I will provide a vanilla version of the .map file for testing purposes. However, this will not contain the starting locations since that won't be determined and known until the game actually starts.

If you want to test out a certain possible location, I can provide you with the #specstarts for that particular location which you can insert into the .map file or you can add the specstarts yourself using the province numbers in the doc file in the opening post.


Thanks in advance! Also, thanks for organization and everything. Being an organizer myself, I understand how much work you put into this.

Thanks, it has been quite a challenge, running through each nation, examining all the units of every nation, identifying common themes, looking at native gem incomes, examining every single pretender. Wheh!

Note: For those who might be interested. I had two choices when it came to deciding secondary paths for each team in this game. One was using a given paths Greatest Contributory Path (GCP I call it). For example, the path that occurs most frequently in the entire blood spell list with blood magic is Astral. The other was using the same method I chose for the main path of each team, i.e. the path most common to all or most the team's nations and having the same general theme. This included factors such as native gem income, native mage access to that path, etc. I chose the later to avoid any conflicts with the main paths of each team, and it happened to work out fairly well.

[NooBliss]

Enabled PM.

Could you clarify about the team's paths? Does it limit our pretender choices in some RP way?

[Septimius Severus]

Enabled PM.

Could you clarify about the team's paths? Does it limit our pretender choices in some RP way?

Certainly. Yes, the rpg and scenario elements embodied in the primary and secondary paths and associated themes of each nation means pretender choices and initial magic path selection are limited. No two teams will have access to the same pretenders as a result. On the average, you will find that each nation will have at least 4 thematic pretender choices, some nations have more.

I have updated the NaVIITeams&Themes.pdf on the main page:
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=9744&d=1271757759

You can refer to it for more info on pretenders and such.

Note: I am increasing the multiples from 100 to 125 to give a slight boost to the AI, in keeping with the AI difficulty progression.

[NooBliss]

Too bad. I was sooo into Bakemono Kunshu. :(

[ano]

Septimius Severus
Thanks for your answers.
I will provide a vanilla version of the .map file for testing purposes. However, this will not contain the starting locations since that won't be determined and known until the game actually starts.
I think that a map with "#start" provinces will be fine. People may change #start to #specstart for testing purposes any time they want.

[Stagger Lee]

Too bad. I was sooo into Bakemono Kunshu. :(

Hey Sept, I was just looking at this guy. You know I'm new and maybe a little dense, but I don't see why he should be excluded, if they want him. He's a samurai lich @ 50pts/path (so not a rainbow). Seems pretty thematic to me. Is it the 1F he comes with?

[DrPraetorious]

And Shinuyama and Machaka both get a lot of fire anyway.

Also I think refusing to let team-blood take a Moloch (because it has fire magic? For Abysia only?) is over-restrictive. If you really want to restrict people to their national paths on their national pretenders, this can be done but requires a Mod.

[Septimius Severus]

Is it the 1F he comes with?
That is correct, same applied to the Moloch on the blood team. I've added more pretenders in, but these are blanket restrictions on pretenders (and on magic path selection for the pretender) that are not nation specific and depend on the primary and secondary paths listed for your team. This has resulted in some more or less thematic pretenders being dropped, others being added. Sorry, can't fit all the pretenders I'd like into this scheme without fooling with a mod and throwing in other restrictions.

[Septimius Severus]

Now if the captain of the death team for instance doesn't mind the blood team having access to the Vampire Queen for instance, who could be given enough death magic during pretender design to cast Tartarian Gate later or earlier in the game without the need for boosters or empowerment and/or forge high level death items, or the captain of the Childen of Crom doesn't mind the supplicants having a pretender such as the Bakemono kunshu, who could be given enough fire magic during pretender design to cast King of Elemental Fire and/or forge high level fire items, or any other high level fire spell once the requisite research has been completed (without the expense of boosters or empowerment), hey you guys are braver than me. I know I would mind.

:D But that is part of the explanation for the restrictions.

[ano]

Things are not so straight, Septimus.
Tell me, which MA nations have easy access to F5 without needing pretender? I will answer: Marignon, Ashdod and Shinuyama. Actually even F6 is not rare and this is perfectly enough for casting King of Elemental Fire or anything fire-based. Who in the world needs Bakemono Kinshu? In my opinion, he is just a crappy pretender that is rather hard to make something valuable with. You may disable or enable him but I would never seriously think of taking him either way.
Moloch, OTOH, is a potent SC that doesn't need much gear to be effective right off the bat. And yes, I think he is very thematic for Abysia who is a fire-blood nation and although I don't want to strengthen the opponents, I don't mind them having the Moloch. Vampire Queen? I don't mind as well. Tartarian Gate can be achieved in numerous ways even with blood team's pretender restrictions and Vampire Queen is even nearly not the most effective of them.

[NooBliss]

Well I mostly wanted to give Kunshu some astral and use him as a recyclable magic dueler / forger / recurring nightmare.
He is quite crappy indeed, if absolutely awesome RP-wise, so without astral there's no reason to take him, so nevermind.

[don_Pablo]

Hi,
may I join the team of Ano? (Supplicants of Set) :)

[chrispedersen]

May I have a markata pretender?

[Septimius Severus]

Things are not so straight, Septimus.
Tell me, which MA nations have easy access to F5 without needing pretender? I will answer: Marignon, Ashdod and Shinuyama. Actually even F6 is not rare and this is perfectly enough for casting King of Elemental Fire or anything fire-based. Who in the world needs Bakemono Kinshu? In my opinion, he is just a crappy pretender that is rather hard to make something valuable with. You may disable or enable him but I would never seriously think of taking him either way.
Moloch, OTOH, is a potent SC that doesn't need much gear to be effective right off the bat. And yes, I think he is very thematic for Abysia who is a fire-blood nation and although I don't want to strengthen the opponents, I don't mind them having the Moloch. Vampire Queen? I don't mind as well. Tartarian Gate can be achieved in numerous ways even with blood team's pretender restrictions and Vampire Queen is even nearly not the most effective of them.

Any mages would need boosters to reach level 5 or 6 anyway. Yes the Moloch is a good fighter, but my decisions were based on what is thematic for the team as a whole not specifically Abyssia. I say we stick with what we got so far, to keep things straightforward and streamlined. We can't get every single pretender in under the system, but I think we've got enough to choose from that are thematic for the team as a whole.

[Septimius Severus]

Hi,
may I join the team of Ano? (Supplicants of Set) :)

Hello Pablo, If ano and team have no problem, I don't see any reason why you can't join the supplicants in a noob slot. I'll pencil you in until I hear otherwise.

I am posting the BI gold version mod, the map image file (which you must have), and a vanilla version of the .map file (optional) if anyone wishes to check out connections or try out some of the starting locations. I am not putting in any starts or specstarts in this version, as where your team will be will not be known until the start. If any team desires to check out a given location (the start provinces are in the .doc file) just throw in the #starts for the nations and province locations you want (nation numbers are listed in the mapedit.pdf in the dom3 doc folder).

A few minor wording changes to the teams&themes.pdf (mostly concerning Ashdod) and looks like we may actually be able to get underway in the near future.

If you haven't signed up for the team forums yet, please stop by and register:

http://noobsvets.silverforum.net

[militarist]

I'd play, but it looks all newbie positions are taken :) ?

[Septimius Severus]

I'd play, but it looks all newbie positions are taken :) ?

You can take an alternate slot on the team of your choice, there's a good chance you might be able to get in before the game gets started if someone drops or can't be located.

[ano]

Hi,
may I join the team of Ano? (Supplicants of Set)
You are welcome, don_Pablo. I'm glad our team is full now.
Guys from the Supplicants of Set, please register at the HQ forums as I already posted some things that need to be discussed there.

Septimius Severus
Any mages would need boosters to reach level 5 or 6 anyway. Yes the Moloch is a good fighter, but my decisions were based on what is thematic for the team as a whole not specifically Abyssia. I say we stick with what we got so far, to keep things straightforward and streamlined. We can't get every single pretender in under the system, but I think we've got enough to choose from that are thematic for the team as a whole.
Actually it is a matter of balance and roleplaying. If you want more balance, roleplaying will suffer and vice versa. In my opinion, though roleplaying is nice, balance is always more important because it provides an interesting game. That's only my experience and feeling, of course, and it is too early to discuss yet.

[Septimius Severus]

Actually it is a matter of balance and roleplaying. If you want more balance, roleplaying will suffer and vice versa. In my opinion, though roleplaying is nice, balance is always more important because it provides an interesting game. That's only my experience and feeling, of course, and it is too early to discuss yet.

Correct. The game has a heavy emphasis on roleplaying, balance is more a secondary goal of mine. (i.e. I don't want to see a death bless on the blood team, or a blood bless on the death team, or an astral bless on any team but the Usurpers or the merc, and so forth). It's sort of a balance between enabling possibly beneficial contributory paths on pretenders and preserving each teams advantages as much as initially possible. As it stands, with pretender magic limited to primary and secondary paths, a few pretenders namely (Bakemono Kunshu, Carrion Dragon, Vamp Queen, Dracolich and Bog Mummy) fall outside of these parameters. That's not to say they cannot be added with certain restrictions at some point, but I say the simpler the better. :D

[Septimius Severus]

Main post files updated, added map files and BI mod.

All restrictions on Ashdod have been lifted since a nature bless for COC is currently a non issue.

[ano]

All pretenders: When designing pretenders, all nations and teams are restricted to magic in their
team's primary and secondary paths.
Sorry. This is a harsh change that is hardly acceptable. I already built a strategy and a guide for our team and changes like this really make me lose enthusiasm. Even although it affects our opponents even more than us, I am strongly against this and have to further think if I'm going to play under such settings.

p.s. I understand a "no-rainbow" setting but not this. Sorry. A compromise between roleplaying and Dominions should be found. Also, what your pretender is for if he can do nothing?
p.p.s. It would be nice if we could stop changing rules or at least stop changing them so drastically.

[NooBliss]

Well, he can manage some high-level rituals... Nature bless is good, too... Other than that, yes, our pretender choices do suck. : ))))

At least they are immortal!

[ano]

Thought a bit more and decided that I can't accept these changes so if they are kept, I will leave. I joined a game with a rules clearly stated in a pdf. I liked these rules and thus joined. Yesterday pdf changed with some pretenders added, some removed etc. Ok, I could live with it but I had to change my plans a bit. Today I again find updated pdf with another, this time really harsh change, and I'm not sure what I will find tomorrow.

Once again, sorry for that.

p.s. Natpy will 99% leave either.

[chrispedersen]

Let me second the notion: removing the restrictions on ashdod is a bad idea.

[Cammorak]

Heck, I volunteered to play Ashdod and I think having them unrestricted would be rough, especially given the thematic E bless. I think it's probably the difference between "these troops are butch" and "Oh God, why a turn 4 SC?"

[Septimius Severus]

Thought a bit more and decided that I can't accept these changes so if they are kept, I will leave. I joined a game with a rules clearly stated in a pdf. I liked these rules and thus joined. Yesterday pdf changed with some pretenders added, some removed etc. Ok, I could live with it but I had to change my plans a bit. Today I again find updated pdf with another, this time really harsh change, and I'm not sure what I will find tomorrow.

Once again, sorry for that.

p.s. Natpy will 99% leave either.

Sorry for the mistunderstanding apparently. That is what DrP and I were discussing when you came into the game and part of the intent and reason for the changes to the .pdf, if the rainbows were in, there's a need to limit path selection to some degree since you don't have the cost barrier that is present with some other pretenders.

I have some goals I am trying to accomplish here:

a. Each team should have pretenders that are unique to their team and should be thematic for the team as a whole (no two teams should have the same pretenders)

b. The primary paths of each team need to be protected to some degree, or we need to ensure by some means that the blood team pretenders will take a certain level of Blood, the earth team will take a certain level of Earth, the Astral team will take a certain level of Astral, etc. Taking something other than your primary or secondary paths should be expensive or costly. This helps preserve the unique advantages and disadvantages of each team.

This was originally accomplished to some degree by keeping cheap rainbows out, I put them in to provide more pretender choices for some nations that were rather lacking. They can be taken out, or left in, but if left in some restrictions need to be in place here to preserve each teams advantages and disadvantages in keeping with the roleplaying and scenario nature of the game. I am sure the blood team does not want to see the death team with a pretender who is capable of casting high level blood spells or forging blood items right out of the gate or with a bless in their primary path.

If you have any suggestions, feel free.

I can limit only the 10 magic path cost rainbows to two paths or I can take them out entirely and we can revert to something like we had before without restrictions.

[Septimius Severus]

Heck, I volunteered to play Ashdod and I think having them unrestricted would be rough, especially given the thematic E bless. I think it's probably the difference between "these troops are butch" and "Oh God, why a turn 4 SC?"

Well, that is certainly no problem to fix. I can go back to the level 6 cap on Earth and Nature. It was really a moot issue with the dual path restrictions. That bless combo being the reason Ashdod's and giant nation troops are so fearsome.

[ano]

Simple and obvious suggestion may be:
1) remove the rainbows
2) limit the non-natural path levels on a Pretender to 3, for example. This will definitely not lead to this path domination or enable high-level spells

This will suit everyone, I hope.
As rainbows can't be taken, you will never have many paths but you WILL have those you really need and that is not bad really. With current rules taking anything other than an SC pretender has no sense. Yes, it is not so bad for our team, because we have good SC chassis. But it is 1) unfair 2) just not fun
The primary role of pretender in many cases is to somehow compensate the weak points of the nation. If it is impossible, the only logical thing for him is being an early SC. That's no good.

[Septimius Severus]

Simple and obvious suggestion may be:
1) remove the rainbows
2) limit the non-natural path levels on a Pretender to 3, for example. This will definitely not lead to this path domination or enable high-level spells

This will suit everyone, I hope.
As rainbows can't be taken, you will never have many paths but you WILL have those you really need and that is not bad really. With current rules taking anything other than an SC pretender has no sense. Yes, it is not so bad for our team, because we have good SC chassis. But it is 1) unfair 2) just not fun
The primary role of pretender in many cases is to somehow compensate the weak points of the nation. If it is impossible, the only logical thing for him is being an early SC. That's no good.

Hey, that works good for me. If DrP is fine and everyone else is fine with that, I've no problem dropping all the 10 magic path rainbows and reverting to the old system. Kinda why I left em out in the first place.

So you'd be limited to level 3 in non-native pretender paths. I was gonna say level 1 (you could boost but wouldn't need to empower) but level 3 is fine I suppose.

[Septimius Severus]

Keep in mind that pretenders that have native magic in another teams primary path (like the Gorgon, Baphomet, vampire queen, Dracolich, Carrion dragon, would still need to be banned as this system would allow them to take a high level of earth, or astral, or death, etc. But on the plus side the SC weak Sangiunarium would get the moloch most likely, and maybe a few others.

[ano]

I'm fine with that.
And please, let it be the final change. Imperfect rules are definitely better than rules that constantly change.

[Septimius Severus]

I'm fine with that.
And please, let it be the final change. Imperfect rules are definitely better than rules that constantly change.
Heh, heh. Well, you captains are finicky lot. ;) I wouldn't have it any other way.

It is natural for players (the more experienced the more likely to be the case) when they come into a game to try to adjust this or that setting or speak up about certain settings they don't like. And a comprise must often be reached between the admin's goals or "vision" for the game and every players expectations.

I expect similar input from the captain of the Usurpers and if I get a replacment for myself, from the captain of the Children of Crom. You and DrP will just have to tell em NO more changes! And back me up!

I'll make the changes later tonight if DrP and players are cool like you.

[ano]

Any idea where to find a leader for the Usurpers? I noticed that Chris wants to play Mictlan. Frankly speaking, Shinuyama and Machaka have less Death and Nature than Mictlan has Astral and Water. And Mictlan being in that team seems more playable to me than land-based R'lyeh that can't build normal mages and troops other than in the capital. Or did I get it wrong that R'lyeh isn't supposed to have any water around?
Yes, R'lyeh is a canonical Usurper but how can it be played?..

[rdonj]

I believe there were going to be some water provinces that don't look like water on the map edges or something

[chrispedersen]

rlyeh would truly be hosed:

Sea provinces are low resources, and do not benefit from adjacent land provinces. so rlyehs income is forever minimal.

The capital resource bonus is frankly irrelevent to me, although I know that some others like meteorite guards.

land province mages are limited to starchildren. Great assassins. Lousy researchers.

The usurpers suffer from a lot of other weaknesses as well. Their signature strength (astral) is widely found on independents.

Lizard shamans, Amazons, all of the metalic orders.

finally, CBM of course removes clams; sure every nation is hosed that way - but rlyehs mages are more geared to clams than anyother nation in the game, probably.

[ano]

Yeah, it seems that Mictlan would give the Usurpers team more flavour than R'lyeh. R'lyeh is designed as water nation and should be played as water nation. Actually all of their troops are quite crappy and not cost-effective with one exception - the Crab Hybrid which is aquatic but helps underwater expansion a lot. (Some people may say that Shambler Thralls are cool but even though they may be cool there're always better recruits. Not a matter of discussion now, anyway)
As a balance adherent, I'd rather see Mictlan in the Usurpers team but of course it is not me who decides, so it's just an opinion.

p.s. Actually I just can't wait for a fight and I'm willing to face whoever and whatever if that makes the game start sooner :)

[ano]

Also, S-W is a very good and natural bless for Mictlan and that may compensate for the potential weaknesses of the Usurpers. Again, just a side opinion.

p.s. I'm advocating for Mictlan just because I hope Chris will take it :)

[chrispedersen]

laughing .. thanks ano = )

I've told sept that I'll play if he adds mictlan to the usurpers;
I've also said I'm a masochist because the usurpers are *terribly* weak.

That being said... even tho I'd like to captain, I don't have time - so I'm hoping squirrel will step up and show me how its done = ).

That said, I have a number of .. intrigueing ideas for the usurpers = ).

[NooBliss]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Usurpers (and Rlyeh with them) can clam all they want since we dont use CBM?

[ano]

NooBliss
Yes, they can. Just like everyone.
chrispedersen
That being said... even tho I'd like to captain, I don't have time - so I'm hoping squirrel will step up and show me how its done = ).
Well, I also hope that squirrel will step in and the game will start. Don't want signup last for ages. Mictlan instead of R'lyeh sounds good though, probably, it also has to be restricted a bit.

[DrPraetorious]

The usurpers "official" paths could be astral/air, and then the R'lyeh -> MA Mictlan swap would make a lot of sense.

[Septimius Severus]

Been held up with other things for a bit. I am updating the pretender choices now following the rubric ano suggested earlier and upon which I agreed and there seemed to be no objections.

1. All 10 magic path rainbows will be removed.
2. All pretenders restricted to taking no more than level 3 on non-native paths (native paths = the ones your pretender comes with standard)
3. Pretenders who native path conflicts with the primary path of any team and/or the merc will be/remain excluded.
4. Restrictions on Ashdod pretender revert to max of level 6 on Earth and Nature.
5. No further changes will be made to the pretender choices unless all captains agree.

Regarding the Usurpers, though R'lyeh is the "Cannonical" Usurper, Mictlan has good Astral access (though not as much initial native astral gem income as any of the others), so they would likely be a good choice if R'lyeh is replaced and Chris, Squirel, or someone else wants to captain them. I wouldn't mind.

Mictlan has a reasonable nature/forest bias both in terms of theme and path (more so than T'ien Chi'), so I probably wouldn't change the secondary path to air due to the conflict with the AI team's primary air dominance. I'd just need to change the team pic (showing an Illithid):D, but that is a minor change. The theme of mental/temporal magic still applies to any astral based team and the thaumaturgy school.

If R'lyeh stays in, ahh no problem as well. I might connect their underwater cap with the nearest corner sea province which would at least allow them to move their aquatic only units around a bit.

Adding more underground lake cavern/water provinces is a bit tougher since I want to do it without any image editing, want to limit the obstructions to the land game (and AI), and keep them evenly and stragetically dispersed. This is the reason they are located in the corners where their disruption is minimal. Adding 4 more cavern type sea provinces to the north/south/east/west center edges of the map remains a distant possibility, but I likely won't bother if R'leyh is out.

Sea provinces were more of an afterthought on this map, and the merc is something a test, but should be fun. Altantis and R'lyeh were chosen as they both have a good number of amphibious units.

I am opening up the Deva's den and merc hq to all players. A single player on each team will still remain the contact person in regard to retaining the merc's services (either captain or advisor) to prevent confusion or conflicting requests for services from different members of the same team.

Will post another message when the teams&themes have been updated.

Lets try to get the last few people in the game, and an advisor or two or some alternates would'nt be bad either.

[ano]

Oh, cool! Am waiting for Chris and Squirrel.
W9S9 seems frightenting though:)
Probably Mictlan will be the only uber-blessed nation.

upd: do I understand it right that Mictlan can't take W9S9 on an Oracle because Oracle doesn't have native W?

[Septimius Severus]

Oh, cool! Am waiting for Chris and Squirrel.
W9S9 seems frightenting though:)
Probably Mictlan will be the only uber-blessed nation.

upd: do I understand it right that Mictlan can't take W9S9 on an Oracle because Oracle doesn't have native W?

Oops, made a booboo on my previous post. Currently the primary and secondary paths of the Usurpers are Astral and Water. If Mictlan comes in, I'll have to see how it would affect the secondary path, but the presence of Bandar and Mictlan might push the secondary path toward nature/forest more than anything. Which works great for me, and would offer more protection to the mercs primary path of water.

Yes, under the currently agreed rubric, an available Usurper pretender would need native water to be able to take anything above level 3.

Now if mictlan replaces R'lyeh, the secondary path of the Usurpers will likely change and a few pretender choices will need to be changed on that team (hence the above restrict to pretender changes would not apply until after).

So do you want me to wait to see if mictlan will indeed replace R'leyh by the prospective captain or should I change the teamsandthemes temporarily now?

[ano]

It seems that all teams have agreed upon regarding R'lyeh/Mictlan. R'lyeh just sucks without much water and it needs really a lot of time to make everything run.

[chrispedersen]

Just wait, lets leave it for the captain....

[chrispedersen]

Hmm... The proposal that Mictlan has to choose a pretender that has water and astral access is all well and good.

Except that mictlan doesn't *get* a pretender that has water and astral access.

I would propose that we just allow mictlan to have water/astral.

[Septimius Severus]

It seems that all teams have agreed upon regarding R'lyeh/Mictlan. R'lyeh just sucks without much water and it needs really a lot of time to make everything run.

Chris is right, that is really the potential Usurpers Captain's call regarding either R'lyeh or Mictlan. (I personally think R'lyeh is a lot of fun to play around with period even with the water gimping), But I have no problem with either choice. I will however go ahead and implement the agreed upon rubric for the other teams and post the changes, this way at least the other teams are straight pretender wise.

[ano]

I would propose that we just allow mictlan to have water/astral.
Understand that allowing Mictlan W9S9 bless while other nations are severely restricted and actually no one can take a super-bless, doesn't bring any balance. I must say that jags and eagles are very good even with a single W9 bless.
I'm ok with the current settings just because Mictlan has no pretender with native water+astral

[Septimius Severus]

Hmm... The proposal that Mictlan has to choose a pretender that has water and astral access is all well and good.

Except that mictlan doesn't *get* a pretender that has water and astral access.

I would propose that we just allow mictlan to have water/astral.

If Mictlan comes in for R'lyeh, the secondary path of the Usurpers is likely to change, and thus available pretender choices are likely to change a bit for the Usurpers. Without R'lyeh, I suspect the paths would be Astral and Nature (will need to look a bit more and apply the same methodology I used for the other teams), not Astral and Water. Any diversions from these basic rules and would need complete approval. Again, trying to keep things simple as possible.

[ano]

Septimius Severus
Let's don't change anything without an urgent need? All the nations in Usurpers team get both Astral and Water so Astral-Water paths for their sound good. As Mictlan can't take W9S9 and has to choose, I see no problem in the situation.

[Septimius Severus]

Septimius Severus
Let's don't change anything without an urgent need? All the nations in Usurpers team get both Astral and Water so Astral-Water paths for their sound good. As Mictlan can't take W9S9 and has to choose, I see no problem in the situation.

OK, I was wrong, it looks like water can safely remain as the secondary path of the Usurpers whether we have R'lyeh or Mictlan. I thought their might be a slight air or nature bias, but Bandar and Arco don't have air access, and Pythium has no nature at all.

[ano]

Septimius, NooBliss claims that he can't post at the N&V forums. I read some earlier posts there and seems like there was the same problem with GrudgeBringer. Has it been solved? Or have you used other ways of communication?
What might be the cause of this? Firewall, antivirus, unsupported browser?

[Septimius Severus]

Septimius, NooBliss claims that he can't post at the N&V forums. I read some earlier posts there and seems like there was the same problem with GrudgeBringer. Has it been solved? Or have you used other ways of communication?
What might be the cause of this? Firewall, antivirus, unsupported browser?

Grudge was the only one who seemed to have that problem last game for some reason or other I was never able to discern. I will get with NooBliss and see if we can discover what is causing his issue. I am assuming he can log on just fine and read the teams messages, correct?

[Septimius Severus]

The Teams&Themes.pdf has been updated. Welcome back Bakemono Kunshu, Moloch, Great Mother, and Phoenix. Pretender choices look like they won't change whether the Usurpers decide to go with Mictlan or R'lyeh.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=9989&d=1272021300

Hmm, trying to come up with a suitable image replacement for the Illithid with Mictlan in representing the Usurpers astral/water/temporal/mental magic theme.

Any suggestions?

[ano]

I am assuming he can log on just fine and read the teams messages, correct?
Yes.

[Septimius Severus]

I'm getting with him.

These look interesting:

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:GkfdQ47zx0-PuM:http://www.1worldglobes.com/images/GemstoneGlobes/HANDAS-PGR-BIG.jpg http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:PfEwu7KCXBTi3M:http://www.dreamstime.com/world-map-or-globe-plus-hand-thumb1374470.jpg

[NooBliss]

Eh... Guys, I'm too lazy (busy, cozy) to make screenshots etc. Just believe me I cant post there. I'd prefer to just PM everything I want to say.

[chrispedersen]

Septimius Severus
Let's don't change anything without an urgent need? All the nations in Usurpers team get both Astral and Water so Astral-Water paths for their sound good. As Mictlan can't take W9S9 and has to choose, I see no problem in the situation.




Well except that the only water pretender allowed for mictlan is a blue dragon. And I'm not willing to chamption a nation already saddled with one gimp.

Sept has only allowed the Usurpers 11 pretenders - of which half of them are *only* available to Rlyeh.

The rules were intended to restrict each nation to its themes. Which my proposal corresponds to. I don't believe that the combination of allowed pretenders and paths have been adequately considered for this team.

The team has no SC pretender, and as a whole has no thug/SC recruitables. On top of that a gimped Rlyeh...

Sorry.. pass.

[ano]

I can't understand you, Chris. It has been decided that we have Mictlan instead of R'lyeh. So no R'lyeh. Mictlan can easily take a W9 or S9 bless which is not bad comparing to what others have. Bandar may also take a bless (even w9s9 IIRC) and their sacreds are good indeed with it. So, two potential blesses for team. On top of that two of four nations get elephants. Compare that to what other teams have. Yes, we get a PoD that can provide an early boost but later on our starting advantages are nullified. No chance for a bless, no to little summonable thugs\SC's before tartarians.
As for SC's, yes you don't have them but any of titan pretenders can be a wonderful dormant SC if given E and A. You get 4 decent to perfect nations that have wonderful SC\thug summons and all magic (except blood). And that is not exaggeration at all

However, I, of course, agree that Usurpers should be given more pretenders to choose from just because they indeed get too little currently .

[chrispedersen]

I can't understand you, Chris. It has been decided that we have Mictlan instead of R'lyeh. So no R'lyeh. Mictlan can easily take a W9 or S9 bless which is not bad comparing to what others have. Bandar may also take a bless (even w9s9 IIRC) and their sacreds are good indeed with it. So, two potential blesses for team. On top of that two of four nations get elephants. Compare that to what other teams have. Yes, we get a PoD that can provide an early boost but later on our starting advantages are nullified. No chance for a bless, no to little summonable thugs\SC's before tartarians.
As for SC's, yes you don't have them but any of titan pretenders can be a wonderful dormant SC if given E and A. You get 4 decent to perfect nations that have wonderful SC\thug summons. And that is not exaggeration

Well, you're probably right ano. But I still think the pretender selection and path needs to be looked at. Everyone's jumped on the 'get rid of rlyeh' which is fine - but its still subject to the whims of the usurpers captain. Who may decide he wants rlyeh (beats me why).

Look at the pretender selection for the usurpers... they're not ALLOWED any titans.

[ano]

Pretenders should definitely be reviewed, I hope, we can come to agreement with Septimius regarding that.
As for the captain, doesn't Squirreloid want to take this role? If not, I believe you have many contacts who are good players here.

[Septimius Severus]

How's that Nataraja as an SC, the one with the 4 weapons?

And the Son of the Sun?

[ano]

Son of the Sun is a crap. Nataraja is decent.
Perhaps the Usurpers can be given something like a female titan like other teams are allowed one pretender with a cross-path.

[Septimius Severus]

So blue dragon and Nataraja are the SCs they have right?

Generally, at least two SCs are sufficent when two nations are tucked behind two others.

Hehe, Ano, you must really want Chris onboard.

[chrispedersen]

whatcha talkinga bout ano... Set gets...

ghost king (great SC), PoD, 4 liches, LORD OF THE GATES, wyrm, and mom of monsters ain't bad at all.

oops ok.. its not CBM so lord of the gates isn't amazing. still very solid pretender choices.

Usurpers get oracle (immobile), sphinx (immobile) sacred statue (immobile), lady of fortune (not available), son of the son (crap), nataraja, Blue dragon, mother of rivers (not available)

[Septimius Severus]

Usurpers get oracle (immobile), sphinx (immobile) sacred statue (immobile), lady of fortune (not available), son of the son (crap), nataraja, Blue dragon, mother of rivers (not available)

What do ya mean NOT Available?

I am sure Ano wouldn't mind giving ya the Wyrm, it's sort of a universal pretender, like the manticore, though a serpent (a bit thematic for the death team), it is not bound by path restrictions.

Depending upon his time constraints, Chris (being a vet) can join as an advisor or captain (something he is sorta doing already). He could even take a leiutenant position (normally reserved for noobs or intermediates) but his captain would need to be either an intermediate or a noob.

[ano]

Actually we have plans for a Wyrm so I do mind, sorry. And it is a serpent. There're other good pretenders as well that are not yet used like female Titan.
I'll explain: wyrm is a must-be pretender for MA C'tis that can't really take anything but undead or serpent because of Miasma dominion that is also a headache btw

[ano]

Two of four Usurpers nations may take a female Titan which is a very potent dormant SC especially if you consider Arco healing. And she seems quite thematic to me

[Septimius Severus]

Darn it. Your right, forgot to add the female titan. Ooops.

Don't forget we still need a leuitenant and hopefully someone to replace my rather noobish self on Children of Crom.

[Septimius Severus]

And the lovely Lady of Love. Ain't she pretty?

Alright Chris, you heard Ano. He wants ya in. So get your arse in here. :)

[ano]

A very potent pretender, btw due to her fantastic awe value.

[ano]

I spent some time reading the last turns of the NaV team forums and I have to say this is gonna be an interesting fight. And chris, you definitely should jump in together with squirreloid.

[Septimius Severus]

Female Titan and Lady of Love added.

Enemy commanders will say, Va Va Voom! :D

Astral has a lot going for it:

1. It is the probably the most powerful path in the game.

2. Communions are powerful and Wish is not a bad spell from what I understand.

3. Astral gems are the gold standard of magic gems and can be alchemetized into any other gem. And once arcane nexus and the other globals become available, it means an almost unlimited supply of them.

Remember to have fun with it and enjoy getting into team character. Competition is cool but sometimes it can cloud out all else. :)

[chrispedersen]

Usurpers get oracle (immobile), sphinx (immobile) sacred statue (immobile), lady of fortune (not available), son of the son (crap), nataraja, Blue dragon, mother of rivers (not available)

What do ya mean NOT Available?

I am sure Ano wouldn't mind giving ya the Wyrm, it's sort of a universal pretender, like the manticore, though a serpent (a bit thematic for the death team), it is not bound by path restrictions.

Depending upon his time constraints, Chris (being a vet) can join as an advisor or captain (something he is sorta doing already). He could even take a leiutenant position (normally reserved for noobs or intermediates) but his captain would need to be either an intermediate or a noob.


What I mean by not available is pretty simple: Mictlan doesn't get to have that pretender. It can't be chosen.....

[AlgaeNymph]

Greetings. Septimius has invited me to be either an advisor or lieutenant and I opted to sign up as the latter for The Usurpers. I'm also willing to play as R'lyeh, especially as I have a defensive preference.

[Septimius Severus]

What I mean by not available is pretty simple: Mictlan doesn't get to have that pretender. It can't be chosen.....
That is true, I assumed you were reffering to the team as a whole. Yes, if the captain goes with Mictlan choices are somewhat limited for them (the original theme not designed with them in mind). T'ien Chi' is also astral capable and a great nation in the hands of a vet such as yourself. Take them and the pretender issues are solved. No special exemptions needed.

A special pretender with adjusted paths (the specs of which could be given to Gandalf) is also possible and can be assigned via the .map file. But of course you'd need the consent of the captains at least to do so. Blue dragon is not totally awful, anything with almost 500 HP should be able to expand against weak and low level indies fairly easily.

[rdonj]

I spent some time reading the last turns of the NaV team forums and I have to say this is gonna be an interesting fight. And chris, you definitely should jump in together with squirreloid.

Oh hey, those are open now? I have to go read them.

[Septimius Severus]

Greetings. Septimius has invited me to be either an advisor or lieutenant and I opted to sign up as the latter for The Usurpers. I'm also willing to play as R'lyeh, especially as I have a defensive preference.

Welcome back Algae, former Captain of The Blessed Ones. Once again the legendary courage of Algae Nymph is made manifest. :D

I personally love R'lyeh and a defensive/contributory role is not a bad idea for R'lyeh. Of course if the potential captain chooses Mictlan or even T'ien Chi' (more available pretenders), I'm sure as you said, you'll be fine with taking another Usurper nation.

[Wrana]

Ave Septimius Severus!
I can try to act as Children of Crom leutenant. I have some intermediate experience, though most of it was SP. I would prefer to not play Ashdod, but can try them in case all other players have strong preference for other Children nations. Would prefer Ulm or Agartha, though.

[ano]

Wow! Welcome, people!
Seems that we only miss a head of the Usurpers department now

[chrispedersen]

Well, if algae et. are ok with it, I'll captain the usurpers.

However, I would like to make (remake?) my two suggestions.
None of the suggestions for the usurpers have super effective troops like our worthy opponents.

I suggested mictlan as an addition because they are early game combat effective with the S/W bless. I'd ask my worthy opponents to seriously look at the usurpers available troops and see if they don't agree?

I mean Supplicants - if we start next to the Sanguinarium - don't you want us putting up a fight? Likewise, if we start next to the Children of the Corn, doesn't the Sanguinarium want us putting up some resistance.

I suggest that its in everyone's interest that troops be fairly balanced.

My second suggestion is that Sept replace border mountains with mountains. Many nations get bonuses in mountains - and while the original maps are balanced to include mountains, randomly generated maps never have mountains, only border mountains. Border mountains do not count for the purposes of these spells or national abilities.

[chrispedersen]

Ave Septimius Severus!
I can try to act as Children of Crom leutenant. I have some intermediate experience, though most of it was SP. I would prefer to not play Ashdod, but can try them in case all other players have strong preference for other Children nations. Would prefer Ulm or Agartha, though.

its odd to hear someone say they prefer agartha = )

[chrispedersen]

Last comment: Every nation has been given two primary paths. On a usual map, that would be fine. However, pretty much everyone agrees that water is a weak sister, and it is made even weaker here by having essentially *no* water provinces in the game (which is the best and most prevalent source of water). By net effect of the map is to make blood a little stronger, and water a *lot* weaker.

I'd like to suggest that the Usurper captain be able to pick one of the team to get +4 water gems production on his capital.

Ok, really the last comment: Sept, are you prepared for the AI's to cast globals? Will nations be able to dispel them, or do we have to leave them up?

[Septimius Severus]

Ave Septimius Severus!
I can try to act as Children of Crom leutenant. I have some intermediate experience, though most of it was SP. I would prefer to not play Ashdod, but can try them in case all other players have strong preference for other Children nations. Would prefer Ulm or Agartha, though.

Hello Wrana. I'm sure you'll make a fine LT for the Children of Crom.

[Septimius Severus]

Chris, if you find you have the time and want to play as the Usurpers captain, and the rest are fine with it, that's great. If you don't have the time, you could also advise the team.

Let me address Chris' littany of requests::D

1. Not sure what your getting at about troop balance. Some changes I will agree to but some things I won't budge on as they are core to my vision for the game.

2. The AI is positioned between all factions, so you'll likely be facing the AI before you really get into it with other teams in a major way. As before, AI decimation constitutes the first part of the game, their 8 VPs should probably not be ignored. Plenty of time to research and build your forces.

3. Yes, I am aware the AI may throw up a global or two. The ban on globals for 50 turns is for human players, but yes all are free to dispel them if they happen.

4. The other captains would have to agree to changes that affect competition/balance such as changing Border Mountain provinces to Mountain Provinces, giving your team a water gem boost, or giving you a special pretender.

On a side note: I'd like to get a replacement for myself, as captain of Crom, so I can remain completely impartial and can roll the team and magic locations myself. If possible. Hehe.

I'd also encourage registration/use of the team forums if you can. Early strategy planning gives a team a definitive competitive advantage. But use is not mandatory of course. Plenty of ways to communicate.

[ano]

(which is the best and most prevalent source of water)
Not true. Water sites are common on land. Also, having water as your "secondary" path doesn't mean you can't search for other paths. Your team has natural access to all magic but blood and air (or blood and death if mictlan is in). Each team has nearly equal conditions regarding ability to search for sites of other schools.
I'd like to suggest that the Usurper captain be able to pick one of the team to get +4 water gems production on his capital.
You already get +3 from Pythium which results in 23 total income comparing to 20 that everyone else has.

I mean Supplicants - if we start next to the Sanguinarium - don't you want us putting up a fight? Likewise, if we start next to the Children of the Corn, doesn't the Sanguinarium want us putting up some resistance.
Didn't understand this point.
I'd ask my worthy opponents to seriously look at the usurpers available troops and see if they don't agree?
I already mentioned it. Two members of your team have got elephants which is more than enough for bloodless expansion. Mictlan has got wonderful sacreds. Pythian infantry is just very good as well as Ermorian. (However, Machaka's troops are crap but we're not asking for anything) Your team is perfectly capable of expanding fast especially considering Indy 4 setting.
I suggest that its in everyone's interest that troops be fairly balanced.
I'd say that under current settings Children of Crom are definitely the weakest but they don't complain. Agartha is just a crappy nation especially without the Risen Oracle. It's troops are extremely slow and inefficient. Ulm may not be that bad but they're also slow. Marignon... A decent nation. Ashdod is good but that is their only really strong point.
If I was asked who needs some love, I'd definitely say that's the Earth-fire team and by no chance yours (your team seemed weak with R'lyeh but not with Mictlan)

p.s. I don't want to argue, I just say what I think.

[ano]

The other captains would have to agree to changes that affect competition/balance such as changing Border Mountain provinces to Mountain Provinces
I don't see the point here. Border mountains provide better movement while most of sites are the same. However, I'm not strongly against it.
What I'd suggest regarding the map is evening the density of farmlands. They mean money and thus are important for everyone. Currently farmlands are concentrated in the left part of the map and even more - in bottom-left. But unless someone else wants it, let it be what it is now if it allows a sooner start and less changes.
or giving your team a water gem boost.
I disagree. Comments above. I wouldn't mind giving the Children a gem boost though :)

[Wrana]

its odd to hear someone say they prefer agartha = )

To Ashdod - certainly! :D
As for troops - I don't think that 2 elephant nations and hydras nation should say that they have poor troops. :rolleyes:
As for water I don't know - but doesn't a map generator have a possibility to change a water to land ratio?
And - to our emperor: I can read this whole thread but if you'll PM me and summarize what you can say about our team (including other players' preferences) it would be at least much faster. ;)

[Septimius Severus]

I will say this about the map. It's random! It is what it is. Everyone knew it joining up. I'm not averse to minor changes here and there especially if the captains agree, but there's a danger of going overboard, where we end up with a map with terrain masks that don't reflect the physical map at all and every team wants this terrain or that terrain changed to reap some sort of benefit or correct some percieved imbalance. ;)

Wrana, I'll send ya a PM later tonight, Children of Crom hasn't done much communicating yet. As we were'nt complete.

[ano]

As for troops - I don't think that 2 elephant nations and hydras nation should say that they have poor troops
I totally forgot hydras :)))
Jaguars, eagles, elephants and hydras are all extremely poor troops I have to say. :)

[ano]

Septimius
I'm absolutely ok with the map but I'd like to ask for a minor thing that will make things more balanced. Can we connect 261-264 and 40-51 to allow rear nations easier way out. The two other corners don't have such issues. That's a minor thing and I think it can be done especially considering that the corners have not yet been assigned. Thanks.

[chrispedersen]

Not true. Water sites are common on land.

On this map, there are 56 woods provinces, 23 plains, more than 80 border mountains. 11 Waste.

There are *5* swamp provinces, and there are no coastal provinces that I can see. The distribution of these provinces is a HUGE hit to the amount of water that will be generated.

Of the 112 water sites, about 1/3 of them only occur in water. Including the preponderance of the uniques.

More than half of the remaining water sites will have reduced frequency due to the lack/dearth of coastal and swamp provinces.

The distribution of these provinces STRONGLY favor EARTH (mountains) and nature (forests) and death. (Strangely, death is the second most common site in forests iirc).

As for site searching other paths.. Sure, we can do that.
However, our pretenders are required to be our primary or secondary paths - and this setup is requiring we take a path that will have way fewer gems.

Secondly, for all of our discussed nations, water is a our secondary path. Pythium arch theurgs, rley, mictlan - they all have water. These water paths will be of diminished value without water, and with few water gems.

As the map stands now, wouldn't you agree that there is *very* little reason for any of the other teams to dedicate much effort to water. In other words, if you are going to choose between earth and water, earth will be a much higher priority.

Finally water has utility in water; which there is none in the game virtually. So most of the water path spells are inutile.
Ie, water is balanced somewhat by its use in water. The lack of water makes this path even more crippled than previously.



[QUOTE]I'd like to suggest that the Usurper captain be able to pick one of the team to get +4 water gems production on his capital.
You already get +3 from Pythium which results in 23 total income comparing to 20 that everyone else has.

The team selections are meant to be roughly equal. I'm suggestion that the distribution of land merits adjustment.

Two members of your team have got elephants which is more than enough for bloodless expansion.......

It is my opinion that you way overestimate the power of elephants. So much so that I am willing to stipulate that we will get rid of one of the elephant nations (ie, not play arcocephale), in return for *something* being done about the problem with the water gems.

I actually don't think it should be required, but I view the lack of water as a much bigger issue than lack of elephants.



Agartha is just a crappy nation especially without the Risen Oracle.

Yeah, I'd be ok with them having the Risen Oracle as well.

(your team seemed weak with R'lyeh but not with Mictlan

Well, of course its a matter of perspective. I consider bandar and arco both to even weaker than a crippled rlyeh.

So we haven't gotten the team members set, so I don't want to commit before discussions with them. I would argue that more water territories, or more water gems is necessary regardless, but if necessary I am willing to stipulate Rlyeh if that makes it seem more fair.


p.s. I don't want to argue, I just say what I think.

No offense is taken in the slightest ano. I think you're quite a gentleman, and a fun opponent.

[chrispedersen]

I will say this about the map. It's random! It is what it is. Everyone knew it joining up. I'm not averse to minor changes here and there....

Its not the map, its playing, for example rlyeh in the desert.

I'm suggesting that the changes made to the map (5 water provinces?) are insufficient for the challenges for this team:

a). 5 water provinces.
b). Required water/astral pretenders
c). Nations with national mages that all include water
d). an already weak water path with more than half its spells no longer useful.
e). Issues that Rlyeh would have with the water/land interface. Ie., dominion death due to neighbors, forts not gathering resources from land provicnes etc.

[zegc-ben]

cross-posting from the Noobs and vets forum :

Here are somethoughts about the best way for communication between the teams and the mercenarys.

I think that there will be times where two teams will want the same thing and the best way to deal with that will with an auction. I think that it would be nice to have open auctions on this forum, with something like one thread for each military operation where the teams will submit there bid. However I see two big problems with that : first it will make it impossible to have the help of the mercenarys for a surprise attack (or there will still be a need for another system) and secondly it will introduce real time in the game since somebody able to bid just after his opponent will have a huge advantage. Another way would be to have closed auctions like those for the in games mercenarys : everybody gives his price without knowong what the others are doing and I select the contracts that I want to do.

I am leaning to the second option since it will be more simple but I am open to any suggestion.

I think we should keep this tread about balance and respond to this post on the other forum but I wanted to draw your attention to this question.

[ano]

I actually don't think it should be required, but I view the lack of water as a much bigger issue than lack of elephants.
Well, Chris, I have to agree you're right.
What can be done is:
1) mark some provinces as "fresh water" which will increase the chance of a water site AFAIK.
2) add some random lakes so that neighbouring provinces become coastal.
However, this should be done evenly throughout the map. Not a hard task.
But anyway I have to say that water sites are by far not the rarest in general. From my experience W and D sites are the most common ones even on land (though maybe it comes from "coastal" and "fresh water").
So, while I think it's ok to increase the chance of water sites on this map, I still disagree to give your team even more extra gem income in addition to Pythian. If you are particularly desperate, you may choose to exchange some of your S income to W. I think, Septimius will allow it.
Finally water has utility in water; which there is none in the game virtually.
I think with your team having access to clams it will not be hard for you to use the water gems.
It is my opinion that you way overestimate the power of elephants.
No, I don't. I would think twice before using them much with any nation but Caelum, probably. Especially in a game with settings like this. But that's me. I just say that it there's a widely spread opinion that elephants are super cool and they probably are to some degree. As for me, I think, that Arco has better troops than elephants if you can afford non-sloth and so do monkeys, although early expansion with elephants is easy indeed. I also don't consider Machaka a crappy nation but I have absolutely no desire to argue with 99% of the people here who think otherwise.
Yeah, I'd be ok with them having the Risen Oracle as well.
Me too, but I'm pretty sure Septimius will not allow this because it's non-thematic.
So we haven't gotten the team members set, so I don't want to commit before discussions with them.
it seems that the game is full at the moment.
As for site searching other paths.. Sure, we can do that.
However, our pretenders are required to be our primary or secondary paths - and this setup is requiring we take a path that will have way fewer gems.
No, they are not. You may take up to 3 in any school that your pretender doesn't originally come with or that is not your team path. Also, no matter who you choose, your national mages can search 6 of 8 paths anyway. The same applies for our team, for example, and, probably, the others as well

[AlgaeNymph]

Well, if Algae et. are ok with it, I'll captain the usurpers.That would make my game easier, all I'd have to do is whatever Chris tells me to. ;p

[ano]

zegc-ben
Frankly speaking, though the mercs theme sounds fun, I see little use for them in a real game aside from asking to forge something your own mages can't forge. Of course, I may be mistaken.
Also, I didn't quite understand where your starting location is going to be..

AlgaeNymph
That would make my game easier, all I'd have to do is whatever Chris tells me to. ;p
From what I read at the forums Chris is a really good captain not to say the less. Not a compliment just a respect to a formidable foe.

[chrispedersen]

Of the nations you've mentioned, only rlyeh has easy access to clams....

I also don't consider Machaka a crappy nation but I have absolutely no desire to argue with 99% of the people here who think otherwise.

You and I think very much alike ano. having map move 3 forest archers and troops is a huge advantage on a map with this much forest. I would happily trade hydras for spiders

My preferences would be more lakes. But I can accept marking about half the sites freshwater This will have the side effect of increasing income.

I don't get about the risen oracle.. he's death and earth isn't he?

see, the way I would have set this up is I would have allowed anyone to add their primary or secondary paths to their pretender.

Any other path would be limited to 3.... And then limit the rainbows as sept did.
Oh well thats a different can of worms.

[ano]

Of the nations you've mentioned, only rlyeh has easy access to clams....
Bandars have Rishi who can be N2W1 (without counting those 10%). With a Water Bracelet and a Robe of the Sea, he can forge clams. Not terribly effective but having any amount of N/W combination automatically means you can and should clam.
I don't get about the risen oracle.. he's death and earth isn't he?
Yes. Actually the more I think of it the more it seems to me that Risen Oracle could be a great compensation of the Children's weaknesses.
see, the way I would have set this up is I would have allowed anyone to add their primary or secondary paths to their pretender.
I already mentioned it, it seems to me that S9W9 eagles and jags is a too much benefit considering bless options other teams have or, more properly, have not.
Did you try S9W9 tigers, really? They are more than worthy and if I had to play Bandar in this game I would seriously consider this option. And the White Ones, though they are not extremely powerful, are rather cheap and recruitable everywhere. Also, the bless applies to their warlike holy summons, namely Kinnaras and Rudras

p.s. Oh, I should stop advising you for I may regret it later :)

[chrispedersen]

I've played double blessed tigers often. They are simply not worth it. Jim Morrison and I had loooooong discussions about it.. he eventually came round to my point of view.

IMO, the only sacred units that are worth it are *cheap*. Rule of thumb 35gp or less, and preferably low fewer than 10 rp.

There's probably an exception or two .. but tiger riders ain't it.

Of course, sacred thugs are a different story

[ano]

White ones are 23 gp each.

[chrispedersen]

yep, once again we agree... white riders are ok. The resource requirement is too high to make them top notch.. but otherwise,, not bad.

[chrispedersen]

I'd like to ask anyone on team usurpers to read back into the archives of team ACHOO to see how I like to run the teams.


Hopefully we'll get the last issues resolved soonish,

[DrPraetorious]

Niefel Giants *are* worth it @ 150gp each, although Niefel Jarls eventually displace them completely.

I'm going to be out of town from tomorrow until Thurs of next week. I'll still be available but in limited capacity, so I'll need at least a few days after that to finish coordinating with my teammates.

Teammates: log onto the forum and pick nations! I'll take whatever is left, although hopefully it won't be Pangaea.

[chrispedersen]

Yep, I agree completely Dr.P.

Dr. P: before you vanish, did you have any objection to making mountains real mountains, and adding lakes or the freshwater tag to provinces?

Adding lakes would help usurpers and agartha. Adding mountains would likewise help the slower nations, cutting down on the mobility of the faster ones.

[Septimius Severus]

I disagree with Ano about the possible utility of the merc, but it will remain to be seen how it functions in actual play (I would keep retention of services private and only list the menu of what is offered). Take something as simple as province information or scounting. There are times you may need fast/cheap/complete information on a given province that is located some distance from you. If pluncking down 5 or 10 gold can get you the information you need to make your decision without wasting gems (if you happen to have Astral access) it may be worth it.

The benefit of using the merc, is it enables your team to do things without taking risk/wasting gems/using your own troops/etc. For instance, you could be allied with team B but attack team B at the same time without team B knowing who ordered the attack. Why use risk your own troops against the AI or an enemy in some province when the merc can clear out the province for ya.

[Septimius Severus]

Good to see the enthusiam.

I wouldn't really have any place to add any more sea provinces sufficently in a balanced way that would not obstruct the land game or inhibit the AI other than the possible exception of 4 provinces added to the N,S,E,W edges of the map near the center. Even there it is a bit obstructing but is limited at least. Currently the 5 sea provinces are each worth 1 VP. Wouldn't want to increase this due to the obvious bias.

Freshwater tag, I've got no problem with adding some of that. If DrP, Ano, and my replacement (if I get one) don't mind. Same holds true for border to mountain mask.

Currently 5 underground lake provinces. All surrounding provinces would be coastal, didn't count em, 10-20 or so, meaning recruitment of amphibious national units (for R'lyeh this would mean the recruitment of Hybrid Lord, Hybrid trooper, Hybrid Soldier, and Star Children) if a fort is built in any of them, plus the possibility of amphibious poptypes (indies) in those provinces.

If R'lyeh is used, their cap would be the sixth province, meaning all surrounding provinces would be coastal. If the cap is connected to the nearest corner lake, it means R'lyeh would also have the ability to move its aquatic only units to any other corner of the map (through the merc) thus giving it far greater range than any other nation and the potential to strike into the heart of an enemy camp. A rear/contributory position might be more suitable for them though, depends on what the captain wants to do.

[Septimius Severus]

Ano, there's a slight issue with the Wyrm and the Manticore (not so much the manticore as Gandalf can handle the paths on that). Our rubric states that no pretender may take more than level 3 in any path not native to it. The Wyrm has no native paths. Thus strictly speaking the Wyrm would be limited to level 3 in all paths including death. If you read it wrong, you might think you could use it to bypass the primary path restrictions. I can either drop the Wyrm or adjust the wording to ensure there's no more than level 3 in any factions primary path.

I encourage anyone who's not yet signed up for the forums to make use of them. Again, not mandatory but probably helpful. :)

[AlgaeNymph]

If the cap is connected to the nearest corner lake, it means R'lyeh would also have the ability to move its aquatic only units to any other corner of the map (through the merc) thus giving it far greater range than any other nation and the potential to strike into the heart of an enemy camp.Which could in fact be diplomatically disasterous. "R'lyeh can gang up on us at anytime, let's gang up on it!"

[Septimius Severus]

Which could in fact be diplomatically disasterous. "R'lyeh can gang up on us at anytime, let's gang up on it!"

Heh, heh. The reason I am generally against connecting their cap. If they want to do so, they'll have to do so without their aquatic only units. Any team can choose to move through the merc in theory, but it will be quite expensive. Of course I can't dictate prices to Zegc. I just suggested some.

[AlgaeNymph]

I just want a big lake that can't be barged into easily. A water province surrounded by some water provinces. The troops're gonna be void things guarding mages anyway.

[Septimius Severus]

I just want a big lake that can't be barged into easily. A water province surrounded by some water provinces. The troops're gonna be void things guarding mages anyway.
Well, not connecting your cap with any of the other water provinces, definately protects you. You wouldn't want the hired thugs with access to your cap. Fortifying all the provinces around your cap would be another way to go (giving you protection and more amphibious units to use). Your land teamates will shield you to some extent, especially if your in the rear. Though it means putting you, the more experienced player in the rear.

R'lyeh (if used) is really meant to be a fish out of water so to speak on this map. You'll have some vulnerability yes (your greatest threat may come from the death team) , but I don't want you to be surrounded by other water provinces either for space/obstruction reasons. Don't want ya totally untouchable. :)

[Septimius Severus]

I've asked the captains and potential captains to handle as much of their position jockeying, balance leveling, competition wrangling and so forth as they can via PMs in consultation with me. Such things don't really concern me and many newbie players don't care. I just enjoy playing and want to try out these role playing themes and concentrate on having fun. While keeping as many of my goals intact as possible. Fostering of team identity and team spirit is what I am interested in. Nice to see people getting into character.:D

I wonder if I can find a captain for the Children of Crom to replace me. Ashdod, Agartha, Ulm, Marginon. Probably not a bad combo.

[Numahr]

Hello all,

I'm a newb, with no MP experience so far and only limited SP experience.

I have read a lot about Spet's games and would love to be part of the fun as a first MP experience :)

So since all newb positions are already filled in, I thought I could apply for as an alternate. If given a choice, I would favor the Usurpers.

Numahr

[ano]

Septimius Severus
I answered you PM's.
As for your team, please consider allowing the Risen Oracle for Agartha and\or adding some other bonuses as your team is with little doubt generally weaker than the others while the others are more or less balanced.

[ano]

The benefit of using the merc, is it enables your team to do things without taking risk/wasting gems/using your own troops/etc. For instance, you could be allied with team B but attack team B at the same time without team B knowing who ordered the attack. Why use risk your own troops against the AI or an enemy in some province when the merc can clear out the province for ya.
A problem here lies in the fact that by the mid-game mercs should generally be totally overrun by the human teams, I mean that any human nation will have much vaster (military and magical) possibilities than the mercs. This is actually inevitable and as we have a rather inexperienced merc player, it just becomes even more inevitable :)
To keep mercs position high, we need to somehow compensate this. The most obvious way to do that is increasing their capital pop (to 40000 or even more) and resources. As mercs are not allowed to attack humans and humans are allowed to attack mercs, this should not ruin our so-beloved balance.

[zegc-ben]

I hope to be able to keep myself at the level of a middly weak nation (or more) whitch will mean that it will still be usefull to have me on your side. In fact the mercs do'nt need to be a major power, just to have enough to offer : for example I should be able to field teleporting thugs who can be interresting as a support for any assault against an enemy team, even if I cannot be a threat on my own. I think that it may be interresting to hire mercs even in mid game for raiding and rear attack.

This being said you have much more experience than me and I will of course accept to have a richer capital.

About position I will be exactly in the center of the map but with also the 4 water povinces of the corner connected to my capital.

[ano]

I agree that mercs concept is fine and promising, just want to make it more effective. I know that Septimius worries the most about thematic aspects while I mainly worry about balance and gameplay issues. And from this perspective I think that current merc concept needs a bit more love to be effective.
To increase overall effectiveness and strength -> population and resources may be added.
To increase services effectiveness -> wide spectre of gems (namely income of 1 gem of each type) could be given

That may not be enough, just current thoughts.

Also, while merc cap is untouchable, people may eventually just capture everything instead of that cap. Merc position is no better than position of AI because concentrated attack from any of the human teams will just slay them in a few turns while, I believe, we want them to stay in the game as long as possible.

[Septimius Severus]

Septimius Severus
I answered you PM's.
As for your team, please consider allowing the Risen Oracle for Agartha and\or adding some other bonuses as your team is with little doubt generally weaker than the others while the others are more or less balanced.

I've sent a response PM to captains and potential captains on three issues.

The risen oracle is not in the list of pretenders for reasons many other pretenders are not in the lineup.

They've native death, meaning under the current rubric they could take unlimited death, which is against my core principle of protecting the primary paths. They are also more thematically a death pretender, can't quite see how the chill meshes well with the heat and fire theme of the team as a whole. While thematic for Agartha, they are sort of out of place team themewise.

Ehh, I would however, like to protect earth and fire as much as possible though. The Moloch, Bakemono Kunshu, lord of the summer plague namely makes that a bit hard. Two ways I can handle this:

1.Drop those pretenders (this would make me and the Children of Crom very happy as it means no fire on pretenders) but DrP and co, might need the Moloch.

2. Ano, has suggested primary, secondary and all native paths on pretenders with no maximum, but everything else at 3 or below. This prevents the Moloch and Kunshu from going above 3 in fire , and would allow the Usurper team to take both water and astral on all their available pretenders. Would also take care of the issue of the Wyrm.

[Septimius Severus]

Hello all,

I'm a newb, with no MP experience so far and only limited SP experience.

I have read a lot about Spet's games and would love to be part of the fun as a first MP experience :)

So since all newb positions are already filled in, I thought I could apply for as an alternate. If given a choice, I would favor the Usurpers.

Numahr

Welcome Numahr. I'll put you on in the alternate slot on the Usurpers. You may get in the game sooner if space becomes available. Feel free to join the team forums. Extra input is a goodness for the team.

[Septimius Severus]

I agree that mercs concept is fine and promising, just want to make it more effective. I know that Septimius worries the most about thematic aspects while I mainly worry about balance and gameplay issues. And from this perspective I think that current merc concept needs a bit more love to be effective.
To increase overall effectiveness and strength -> population and resources may be added.
To increase services effectiveness -> wide spectre of gems (namely income of 1 gem of each type) could be given

That may not be enough, just current thoughts.

Also, while merc cap is untouchable, people may eventually just capture everything instead of that cap. Merc position is no better than position of AI because concentrated attack from any of the human teams will just slay them in a few turns while, I believe, we want them to stay in the game as long as possible.

Good insight into the Merc Ano. You've been doing your homework I see.

They will have a pop bonus. That much I had decided at the onset. Because I can't fit any more sites into their cap (that would give the resources they might require (the ones that are there are dearly needed), and because their cap unlike R'leyhs can draw resources from the water provinces surrounding their cap, the resource bonus was generally ruled out. The only magic site that gives a high number of gems in a good number of paths, that I can think of is the Throne of the World, which didn't fit in with the magic location allignment. I'll do a bit more checking though.

Your are correct, the merc was not intended to hang around the whole game. They will be strong initially, but will lose strength eventually and their cap is worth a vp which is intended to be up for grabs. I'm giving them sufficient initial strength and special "top secret bonuses" Shhh, to keep them alive for some time and make sure the AI doesn't finish em. At the same time not making them undefeatable.

The cap penalty is intended to act as a deterent until their are at least two teams left. At which point the threat of allying against your team becomes a moot issue. They should outlast the AI, and their cap will be around at least till their are two teams left. If ya want em alive longer, if you find they are useful, simple solution, don't kill em off. That may be the best deterent of all. :D

[ano]

You've been doing your homework I see.
By no means a homework, just want the whole thing more interesting and have some time now.
The only magic site that gives a high number of gems in a good number of paths, that I can think of is the Throne of the World, which didn't fit in with the magic location allignment.
The best would be a site that gives 1 gem in each school and maybe 3 in Water (10 total which is not bad from one side and not game-breaking from another). I think that we could easily make a minor mod just altering their home site for it. This should not be a problem.

Another (and probably the last one) suggestion came up when I looked into their pretender chassis. They get Kraken (who is great but absolutely worthless here as there's nearly no water to dominate), Dagon (good pretender) and Son of The Sea (same as Dagon but much worse). So this leaves them with the only actual choice - the Dagon. That's no good.
It seems to me that we could allow that underwater Archmage (with the common restriction of 3 in non-native path) if they want it just because that would allow for much greater magic and service diversity and that's basically what are the mercs for in this game. I assure you, there will not be much demand on forging water items which are (as Chris correctly mentioned somewhere) mostly worthless but there will be great demand on the services of the only Archmage in the game. Add here the gem diversity mentioned above and we get a solid independent force though still under no way too much powerful

[Septimius Severus]

Hey, if we want to allow a single rainbow pretender into the game on behalf of the merc. I've no problem with it. If he wants it! The dagon is pretty cool, ehh, I suspect an Ancient Kraken with an amulet of the fish wouldn't be bad either.

While many water "spells" are not be that useful here (I'm guess the ones that can only be cast underwater), there are probably a decent number of water items that very useful, Frost Brands, Ice swords, can't remember em all. I hate the usurpers ability to compromise the water dominance of the merc and vice versa, but that is an exception I made. Which makes me quite upset.:mad:

Don't beleive there's an existing site that qualifies with a single gem in every path but with a good amount of water, but let me look and see what is available.

Don't want to add any more mods my friend.

[chrispedersen]

2. Ano, has suggested primary, secondary and all native paths on pretenders with no maximum, but everything else at 3 or below. This prevents the Moloch and Kunshu from going above 3 in fire , and would allow the Usurper team to take both water and astral on all their available pretenders. Would also take care of the issue of the Wyrm.

As the usurpers have *very* poor pretender suggestions, I'd really like to restrict this to unlimited in your theme paths, 3 everywhere else.

I'm having a hard time following the water discussion, I'll have to study it further.

regarding the mountains: I'm ok with the proposal that roughly half the borders get turned into mountains.

[chrispedersen]

2. Ano, has suggested primary, secondary and all native paths on pretenders with no maximum, but everything else at 3 or below. This prevents the Moloch and Kunshu from going above 3 in fire , and would allow the Usurper team to take both water and astral on all their available pretenders. Would also take care of the issue of the Wyrm.

As the usurpers have *very* poor pretender suggestions, I'd really like to restrict this to unlimited in your theme paths, 3 everywhere else.

I'm having a hard time following the water discussion, I'll have to study it further.

regarding the mountains: I'm ok with the proposal that roughly half the borders get turned into mountains.

I actually did not know that bandar log got to build forts in mountains - they are one of my least favorite nations. But yes it definitely is in my interest to slow down the speed at which the usurpers get over run = ).

[ano]

Kraken is not good because it will fall quickly to arrows. And actually to make an amulet of the wish you have to give him W+A. While that may be ok in a regular game, I think this makes no sense here.
I'm glad you're fine with allowing an archmage. That may greatly add to merc effectiveness.

Don't want to add any more mods my friend.
I understand that. Then probably some combo of common 1-gem underwater sites could work

[ano]

As the usurpers have *very* poor pretender suggestions, I'd really like to restrict this to unlimited in your theme paths, 3 everywhere else.
Chris, I already said what I think regarding this. I am sure that S9W9 mictlan will be a balance-breaker in this game so while I don't mind it in general, I do mind it for Mictlan. If Mictlan is restricted to, say, W6S9, or just W9, I'm fine with it.
And regarding overall balance, while your team may not have the best starting conditions (although expansion possibilities are absolutely ok), you have simply fantastic perspectives from many good national summons, battle magics, communions etc and while I see the point in strengthening Children or Sanginarium, I am sure that your team has no need for further strengthening.

[zegc-ben]

I think the site 10 thousand things should work fine to give me 1 gem income in many different type : http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Ten_Thousand_Things

If I am able to take a rainbow mage (archmage or better great seer of the deep) I will probably do it since it seems that I will have no need of an awake SC but many things to gain from a good magical diversity.

[Septimius Severus]

As the usurpers have *very* poor pretender suggestions, I'd really like to restrict this to unlimited in your theme paths, 3 everywhere else.

Maybe we ought to take this particular discussion to PMs as well. Don't want to complicate things too much here. Mixed blessings in your suggestion for Children of Crom, would hurt our potential E9N9 Great Mother bless, but would cut down on the fire incursions and fix the Wyrm.

I will have to do something about the Wyrm, one way or another. We got three different suggestions here:

1. Current scheme - unlimited on native pretender paths, 3 elsewhere.

2. Ano proposal - unlimited on team paths and native paths, 3 elsewhere.

3. Chris proposal - unimited on team paths and 3 elsewhere.

[ano]

It is land-only, zegc-ben.
There're a lot of underwater sites that give 1 gem in several schools. I think that proper combination can be found.
Yes, of course, the Great Seer is better

[ano]

Guys, let's keep it simple.
Unlimited on team paths and 3 everywhere else is absolutely fine if Mictlan is not allowed taking W9S9 bless.
I strongly disagree with Mictlan given ability to take W9S9 especially considering the fact Usurpers may take W9S9 on Bandar and no other nation can actually take a proper bless for their sacreds. If my opinion means something and though I was the one who supported bringing Mictlan in, I vote "definitely NO" to W9S9 jags and eagles in this game no matter which exactly rule prohibits it.

Maybe we ought to take this particular discussion to PMs as well.
I actually don't see anything more to discuss here. If Mictlan is allowed W9S9, I promise I'll start Chris-like asking for S9 for Ermor (although I don't want and need it) and this will never end. This game is designed so that there's no place for uber-blesses and thus allowing a super-effective uber-bless just because team paths are accidentally one of the best for a bless is unwise especially considering that it may be the second one for a team.

[Septimius Severus]

Heh, this is what I was talking about balance/competition jockeying overtaking role playing and fun.

Well dudes, there's seems to be some agreement on some mountain masks and some freshwater masks. (I assume DrP gets a vote on it as well, but he will probably be OK with some mountains and some freshwater masks. That is the good point.

But the bad point. If there is no agreement on path restrictions, the current rules will remain in effect and the Wyrm, will be denied everything above level 3 in all paths. I am fine with this. Children of Crom will have to deal with the potential high level fire incursions on the Moloch or Bakemonu Kunshu. Its not our primary path so not a big deal I suppose.

Unlimited on team paths and limiting native paths sort of hurts the love the Children of Crom is supposed to be getting here according to Ano as the great mother would lose the potentially powerful E9N9 bless.

So either we come up with a solution workable for all, we stick with the current rubric, we go to unlimited on team paths only (nixing the great mother bless but otherwise OK) and Chris will either have to choose R'lyeh with the sea provinces that are currently on the map, maybe with 4 more as I indicated), or take Mictlan with a special restriction on one of their team paths, or take T'ien Chi'.

Don't get frustrated, we can't have everything we want here and we can't achieve total perfect balance. No game can, especially not an RPG game. So maybe we should stick with what Ano already agreed on previously. I could play r'lyeh or the Usurper captain, and maybe someone can take the children of Crom.

[ano]

Septimius
I think you meant E9N9 not for Ashdod but for someone else? Agartha, Marignon? Ashdod issue seem to have been discussed before. E9N9 Adons are more game-breaking than S9W9 jags :))
If it is not Ashdod I don't mind, moreover, I stand for giving your team some bonuses as it seems quite weak atm. Although, as I mentioned above, giving your team the Risen Oracle would a much better (and thematic) bonus than allowing generally weak E9N9 for Agartha. But that's only my opinion/experience.
My position is simple - I am against allowing S9W9 bless for Mictlan or giving other major bonuses to the Usurpers as I consider them very strong and having great potential (once again, no argues here) and I am for giving some bonuses to the Cromites as I consider them quite weak with current setup. It doesn't matter much to me which exactly rule of the discussed it will be.
Also, yes, gameplaying, planning and thinking are much more important to me than roleplaying and that's the kind of person I am. Sorry for that, but all people are different. ;) ;)

p.s. Also, please note that I never asked for any bonuses for my own team with the single exception of the situation when rules got accidentally and drastically changed. Firstly, I had plans very different from what we have now but we can live with all the changes since that time and don't complain

[Septimius Severus]

This game attracts some of the most intelligent people I've met. I've ruled out the Risen Oracle, using the same process I ruled out the Gorgon, and other pretenders. No team should have a pretender that has a native path in another teams primary path. If I make exceptions for my own team, I must make exceptions for other teams. You get my drift. Why then can't the blood team have the Gorgon if they want? Lets not go back there. So lets see what we can work out from here or just stick with what we got.

[Wrana]

I'd say:
1. End the discussion about team allowances. I see them as generally balanced, but even if it isn't so, it's clear from the start. And all players joined this game knowing it... ;) AFAIK general agreement is that the most powerful paths are Blood, Death, Astral. Earth isn't bad due to forge bonus obtainable. All teams have nations with good troops and those with lategame power, too.
2. Changing path allowances will probably promote changing which Pretenders are allowed - it doesn't matter if I have Ageless Olm if I still can't use him to get high water. This is another discussion we can quite do without.
3. I'm for increasing usefulness of merc player. I think allowing rainbow Pretender is a good feature here. Adding site and/or more water provinces may also be good in this case.
4. Let's bloody frigging start!

[chrispedersen]

Look, I'm not trying to game the system, Im trying to alert to a problem.

Look according to how I understand it:

Jotenheim has *1* choice of pretender: the green dragon
Vanheim has *1* choice of pretender: the green dragon.
Mictlan has *2*: the oracle and the blue dragon.

given that dragons are widely viewed as suck as* pretenders... this doesn't seem right.

Compare that with Ctis - who has 10. Every single member of ano's team has no less than 5 choices.

[Septimius Severus]

That simplifies things a bit, but it is a scenario and rpg'er. I haven't seen DrP complaining, wisely he stays out of these types of discussions. So does Gandalf. :D Maybe we could learn from them.

Do you have your heart set on coming in, only if you can play Mictlan? Yes/no

[AlgaeNymph]

If you're talking to me, I'll be happy playing Pythium instead of R'lyeh if everyone'd prefer no water.

[Septimius Severus]

If you're talking to me, I'll be happy playing Pythium instead of R'lyeh if everyone'd prefer no water.

No was directing it at Chris. Everyone knows your willing to play whatever. Kuddos to you. :D

I need to know whether Chris is in the game as captain or not at this point. Whether he will only play if he can have mictlan with certain features or if he is willing to keep R'lyeh or take T'ien Chi' as alternative.

I've already agreed to do more work in adding some mountains and some freshwater masks to the map. If more underground lake provinces are desired, I can add 4 more if I can find locations that would be evenly spaced and with limited obstruction to the AI and land game. But that is about it as far as water on this map goes. That was my intention from the beginning to have a mostly land based game, with a strange gimp named R'lyeh and strange Atlanteans (read the background story!). I would be happy to captain Usurpers as is and play R'lyeh or any other nation as is. But I've never been competitive minded.

[AlgaeNymph]

No was directing it at Chris. Everyone knows your willing to play whatever. Kuddos to you. :DThanks:), but I'll have to qualify that. I have a preference for nations that can defend well....or if he is willing to keep R'lyeh or take T'ien Chi' as alternative.Ooo, that'll work too! :happy:

[Septimius Severus]

But I won't put it all on Chris. Ano wants him to be the exception to everyone else and take a bless in the team's secondary path that is less than other teams get (ashdod being the exception, poor Children of Crom). But of course he is worried about uber blessed eagle something or others.

I've sent a comprise to them via PM on the path restrictions. Unlimited in primary, 6 in secondary and/or native, and 3 in all else. A bit more complicated than what we've got but at least it does apply evenly to all.

At this point I need a yes or no from Chris whether he is in the game and what nation they are going with (Mictlan, R'lyeh, or Tien Chi'), otherwise we keep looking for another Captain or promote from the ranks of the Usurpers. Uh oh Algae.:D DrP is out of town till Thursday, I'm anxious to start as much as Wrana, but our estimated starting date is not till the end of the month. So we are OK, so far. And Gandalf must have a final list of nations to complete his work on the AI.

[ano]

I've sent a comprise to them via PM on the path restrictions. Unlimited in primary, 6 in secondary and/or native, and 3 in all else. A bit more complicated than what we've got but at least it does apply evenly to all.
I am absolutely fine with this suggestion.

[AlgaeNymph]

As am I.

Oh, and will we be using the CBM?At this point I need a yes or no from Chris whether he is in the game and what nation they are going with (Mictlan, R'lyeh, or Tien Chi'), otherwise we keep looking for another Captain or promote from the ranks of the Usurpers. Uh oh Algae.:D...

If it gets to that then I'll want an advisor ASAP.

[Sombre]

I think you should discuss whether or not to use cbm.

[chrispedersen]

I don't mind bowing out, comments per pm.
Sept do you still want the gem thing we discussed like 20 pages back?

[Wrana]

Oh, and will we be using the CBM?

I hope no. :D
Actually, I thought that if it wasn't mentioned at the starting post... ;)

[pyg]

What, we're not using CBM?!?

[rdonj]

Didn't in the last one, either.

[don_Pablo]

Supplicants of Set are stongly against CBM

[Septimius Severus]

All games in the series are vanilla. If it was CBM you'd have seen it indicated either in thread title/and or in opening post. This is generally a mod free game (excepting the BI mod, and I'm still trying to gauge how effective that one is versus its drawbacks). The only other mod I really ever entertained using was the End Game Diversity Mod due to the benefit it might bring to Children of Crom in particular.

[Septimius Severus]

Failing any objections from DrP or his team, I am allowing a single rainbow pretender for the merc, by adding the Aquatic Archmage to their available pretenders.

I am also changing the pretender path restrictions.

The new pretender path restrictions will be as follows:

Unlimited magic in team's Primary Path, level 6 max in a teams Secondary path and/or any paths native to your pretender, and level 3 max in anything else.

This does several important things: It retains the primacy of the main paths, allows me to keep all currently available pretenders choices in the game, including the Wyrm, and lets you give your natively single path pretenders more magic in the secondary path. I will update the teams&themes.pdf shortly to reflect this.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We need one more player to captain a team, whether it be replacing me or taking Usurpers. I have sent a PM'ed proposal to Chris. If he accepts, well and good, if not, that is fine as well.

Algae and Co, I am always willing to switch over to your team and captain the team if need be. It works for me just the way it is. :D. If your willing to step up again (I know you have great courage) that is not a problem. Advisors can't hurt for any team. Neither could more alternates. We've some time yet, so no emergency.

[ano]

The only other mod I really ever entertained using was the End Game Diversity Mod due to the benefit it might bring to Children of Crom in particular.
Then why not use it here? I really liked it and actually it might bring path-oriented balance into our current magic-restricted design.

[Septimius Severus]

The only other mod I really ever entertained using was the End Game Diversity Mod due to the benefit it might bring to Children of Crom in particular.
Then why not use it here? I really liked it and actually it might bring path-oriented balance into our current magic-restricted design.

I am still considering it and had consulted Llama on it. I was waiting on the new version Llama was set to release.

Let me add for all, that in addition to the partial mountains/freshwater terrain mask map changes which are generally agreed upon, if the potential usurpers captain wants/needs those 4 extra water provinces, I am leaning now toward placing them on the diagonals (less obstructing than the edges perhaps) and possibly connecting them with the center and each other but not with the corners for obvious reasons. The option to connect with the R'lyeh cap will be available. I will probably however not assign VPs to these extra ones if used, as I don't want to bias the VP victory condition too much in favor of R'lyeh or the death team on a mostly all land map.

[Wrana]

The only other mod I really ever entertained using was the End Game Diversity Mod due to the benefit it might bring to Children of Crom in particular.

I'm not either for or against it. It seems interesting, but I like an idea of mod-clear environment, too. So OK either way.

[chrispedersen]

Failing any objections from DrP or his team, I am allowing a single rainbow pretender for the merc, by adding the Aquatic Archmage to their available pretenders.

I am also changing the pretender path restrictions.

The new pretender path restrictions will be as follows:

Unlimited magic in team's Primary Path, level 6 max in a teams Secondary path and/or any paths native to your pretender, and level 3 max in anything else.

This does several important things: It retains the primacy of the main paths, allows me to keep all currently available pretenders choices in the game, including the Wyrm, and lets you give your natively single path pretenders more magic in the secondary path. I will update the teams&themes.pdf shortly to reflect this.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We need one more player to captain a team, whether it be replacing me or taking Usurpers. I have sent a PM'ed proposal to Chris. If he accepts, well and good, if not, that is fine as well.

Algae and Co, I am always willing to switch over to your team and captain the team if need be. It works for me just the way it is. :D. If your willing to step up again (I know you have great courage) that is not a problem. Advisors can't hurt for any team. Neither could more alternates. We've some time yet, so no emergency.

Sept, as I said in private, I do not want to change the terms of the pretenders to this.

[Septimius Severus]

Sept, as I said in private, I do not want to change the terms of the pretenders to this.
I am strongly in favor of this new rubric, but as I say, if DrP is against it, and we are sure you will actually be in the game, reverting back may be considered.

Another type of mod I would consider is one that makes all of a teams pretender choices available to every nation on that team. So in all cases (but especially vanheim, jotunheim, Mictlan (if chosen)), a nation such as jotunheim for instance, would be able to choose a Moloch, fountain of blood, black bull, etc as a pretender.

This may require quite a bit of work, lines of code, and all pretenders so designed would need to conform to the standard number of design points as used in-game on awake pretenders and to the path rubric as well to keep things fair, so as an alternative, if DrP feels he wants a certain generally available team pretender for Jotunheim or Vanheim, or in the case of Mictlan, then we can likely handle it quite easily via a simple map edit, known only to Gandalf (will have to confirm with him on this). This is optional of course (DrP seemed OK with the choices he had), but if he wants something already available to his team in leiu of the Green Dragon, like a Moloch for Van or Jottun, it can be probably be handled without the need of a mod file in such limited cases.

For game 3, if themes are used, I will likely create a large mod that make all team pretenders available to all nations, and also perhaps adds a few non-standard pretenders to each team for fun :D. This idea was expressed earlier by DrP, but I think a dry run using only standard pretenders is the best way to go first. Many commander type units in the game may in theory be used as pretender for either AI or human players (but there lots of balance considerations to think of).;)

[Wrana]

Another type of mod I would consider is one that makes all of a teams pretender choices available to every nation on that team.
...
For game 3, if themes are used, I will likely create a large mod that make all team pretenders available to all nations, and also perhaps adds a few non-standard pretenders to each team for fun :D. This idea was expressed earlier by DrP, but I think a dry run using only standard pretenders is the best way to go first. Many commander type units in the game may in theory be used as pretender for either AI or human players (but there lots of balance considerations to think of).;)
Yes, it may be a good idea. I don't remember whether it's possible to remove standart Pretenders, though. Still, in any case if we make theme game mod, we would be able to increase price of standart ones enough to make them effectively unavailable for wrong teams.
Another thing: I think that for future games it would be better to make merc team of some nation which has spies and/or assassins available.

[Gandalf Parker]

For future games Id suggest that the mercs be handled by something like the Watcher, DungeonMaster, or Debug mods which were created for that. To allow an all-game-view and all-game-impact. They can easily expand the game allowing many new random events, messages, punishments, rewards,

[Wrana]

For future games Id suggest that the mercs be handled by something like the Watcher, DungeonMaster, or Debug mods which were created for that. To allow an all-game-view and all-game-impact. They can easily expand the game allowing many new random events, messages, punishments, rewards,

That's another thing entirely. Something like current Legendary Ordeals game, with Pantokrator giving tests to his subject gods to decide which one is worthy his throne. Mercenary nation shouldn't have such abilities, just enough various options to make it worthy for other factions to cultivate it.

[Septimius Severus]

I am giving the Usurpers and their captain the option (as an incentive to keep R'lyeh as planned) by offering the following 4 extra subtereraean lake provinces in these locations:

http://i40.tinypic.com/2h3zqqp.jpg

These 4 provinces would be: 202, 191, 80, and 83.
3 of them are forest, but since these are underground lakes, there's nothing saying there can't be forests or trees on top as well. They would be connected to the merc but not with corner lakes directly and would not be assigned a VP.

R'lyeh's cap can be connected to one of these (whichever is closest).

This placement and connection with R'lyehs cap offer many advantages to both the Usurpers and the merc and everyone in general:

1. It extends R'lyehs offensive capability and range as well as the utility of its aquatic only units.

2. It doubles the mercs sea neighbors thereby giving a needed resource boost to the merc cap. And also extends their operating range.

3. It enables R'lyeh to reach the strategically valuable corner lakes via an aquatic only route, eventually, but at the same time ensures that R'lyeh would need to go through the merc cap to do so (and pay a suitable toll(s)).

4. The placement is evenly spaced, halfway between the center and corners but allows enough room for all to navigate around them, particularly the AI.

Again, I will provide these as an incentive to stick with the Usurper nations as originally planned including R'lyeh.

[ano]

They would be connected to the merc but not with corner lakes directly
Why not connect each one with the nearest corner lake and (maybe) not connect corners directly to the mercs cap?
Corners connected to the merc cap automatically mean the mercs will always suffer severe dominion problems unless they take something like 9-10 and that's not good IMO. In general, I like the idea of these small lakes.
And R'lyeh cap may be connected to the corner province this way

[Septimius Severus]

So just leave 4 connections with the merc cap near the center? And arrange em like the spokes of a wheel emanating from the merc? Like an giant X? Connecting only at the hub? Like this?

http://i44.tinypic.com/f3aog9.jpg

That works good as well. Maybe even better. The merc must have some access to all these locations though, as it facilitates carrying out its job and gives its units greater mobility.

The only downsides with your suggestion is R'lyeh would be limited a bit more, would need to purchase passage to get to 3/4's of them via direct sea route, rather than the 4 they would have unrestricted access to in the previous example, but if R'lyeh is not used, no problem then. If they were connected up any other way, R'lyeh would be be able to take the VP locations and pop up in your backyard. R'lyeh could also block the merc from access to one of the corners.

The merc would also not got the extra cap resource bonus.

[Septimius Severus]

At this stage all starting positions have been filled. Alternate and advisor positions (if desired) are still available though. So if you are a noob, or intermediate level player, or a vet in the case of advisors, I welcome you. No noob will ever be allowed to be critized or belittled for lack of knowledge in any of my games. You have my guarantee on that going forward. If it happens please bring it to my attention.

The captains (of which I am one) are finishing up agreement on the the path rubric.

Chris, is apparently not going with R'lyeh, so Mictlan will be used as a substitute.

If people like the idea of those extra lake provinces soley for the benefit of the Merc, I will keep them in connecting them according to Ano's suggestion. Otherwise I won't bother with em.

We hope to be getting underway shortly, Gandalf must finish up creation of the AI, and I have a few changes to implement to the map. Gandalf has indicated he might want to use a few other units in the game as surpises either as pretenders or commanders since he is not necessarily limited that much. I have agreed, provided they meet the general Air/nature theme of AI team, they follow the path rubric, and they are not any of the other teams or factions pretenders.

Endgame diversity mod? For it, against it? Should we wait for the new version set to be released shortly?

[ano]

My calls are:
1) lake provinces - voted, yes
2) endgame diversity - yes (although it hampers our team), but definitely no waiting

What I ask for is some final or semi-final (if the final one is top-secret) edition of the .map file. Also, we could raffle the starting positions and distribute starting locations right now.

Thanks.

[Septimius Severus]

Team starting locations (which colored location you start in) will not be known till the game actually starts and will be determined at random. It has been my experience that if these are released prior to starting, it will lead to haggling and bickering and jostling over which team is next to which team. This is a random map, so spacing and so forth is not completely and totally even over the entire map, but some standards have been implemented such as neighbors and so forth. And I do want some surprises in this game. The 4 magic locations will simarily be placed at random. Same applies.

Regarding .map file release, I could release another version with the VPs in, but it wouldn't make sense to put in starts for any nation other than Atlantis, since those will not be known till the game starts.

While we are waiting on the AI creation, and final adjustments, I encourage teams to disuss their starting arrangements (if different from default) who is in front, whose is in back, if not already done. And I also assume most of you have finalized who will be playing which nation on your team.

[Septimius Severus]

Team Roster updated for Supplicants of Set and Children of Crom.

New forum pic for Usurpers:
http://i41.tinypic.com/35d6lut_th.jpg

[Septimius Severus]

I'm going to nix the extra lakes since R'lyeh is not in the game.

Captains have voted down the End Game Diversity Mod.

New path rubric has been agreed to and the NaVIITeams&Themes.pdf file has been finalized. I think the Great Seer of the Deep makes better sense as a rainbow for Atlantis than the Archmage, but I have added both.

Please consult for team path restrictions and pretender choices:

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=10049&d=1272642923

Have fun designing your pretenders!

[AlgaeNymph]

We have to choose our nations first.

Is there any action in the outside forums that I've been missing?

[chrispedersen]

I've posted a couple in the forums Algae. Perfect timing.. I wanted to get my team to take a look at the forums and get active. We need to choose up nations.

[Septimius Severus]

Map file has been updated, see link below and on main post. Some freshwater terrain masks (added along the underground water channels and around the all the lake provinces) and mountain terrain masks have been added. This version of the .map file includes VPs, and (as per Ano's request) #start commands for all human and AI starting locations. Replace with #specstarts for the locations you wish to test.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=10058&stc=1&d=1272826954

Happy testing.

[chrispedersen]

I'm not following. Does this mean starting locations for the game have been fixed?

[AlgaeNymph]

Does anyone know how I can get notifications e-mailed to me in the NaV forum (not this forum, the one for NaV)? I can subscribe to a thread easily enough but I haven't found anything like a 'notify me of comments in subscribed threads' button in my user control panel.

[Septimius Severus]

I'm not following. Does this mean starting locations for the game have been fixed?

No.

The updated map archive contains the same old image file (slight rename thanks PYG for pointing out my typo). Recommend those with Linux, or Mac OS's rename the old image file to NaVII.rgb (uppercase V instead of lowercase v) or simply redownload the archive if you like.

Also included is another version of the .map file for those teams or players who wish to do some pre-game testing and/or try out various possible locations (the final version will not be released, till maybe after the game, maybe ;)). This new version includes VPs, and 21 #start commands. Simply open the new .map file, find the section for any colored team location you want to try out, replace with #specstart commands for your nations, in the arrangement you prefer and you are all set to test out. One or two minor tweaks to neighbors. Also includes the some freshwater and mountain terrain masks.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=10058&stc=1&d=1272826954