AI DEATH MATCH 2 [Archive] - .com.unity Forums

Master Belisarius

February 17th, 2003, 05:13 AM

Well, because the new patch and the TDM 3.3 (with many updates!) were released, I would be happy to run a new contest.

Here my proposed rules.

General Rules.
===========

- Head to Head games (it mean, 1 AI vs 1 AI).
- 30 AI scripts.
- I will use the more new AI scripts Versions that could find, or if the AI's author want, could send me an updated Version.
- If the author of the AI don't want to see their scripts included into this contest, the AI will be replaced for other AI.
- The games will be played using a custom map, TDM data files, SMALL AI BONUS, 3 Good Starting Planets, no random events, simultaneous movement and the first Player for the "human" player.

Why SMALL AI BONUS? Because most the players gave some bonus to the AI, to have a better challenge. But I'm open to remove this, if does exist opinions against it.

- The victory can be decided by:
a) One AI was able to destroy 100% the other AI.
b) The AI with more victory points after 500 turns.
- I will post the save game at the end of every game.

Fixture
=====

- 6 Groups with 5 races each one.
- All the races of each group will play between them, in the 1 vs 1 basis.
- The 2 first races of each group, will go to the next round.
- If does exist a draw for the 1st or second place, I'll run extra games.
- The second round will be done with 3 Groups of 4 AIs, and every AI will play 2 games against the other races. The 2 first of each group will go to the third round.
- The Third Round will be done with 2 Groups of 3 AIs each one, and every AI will play 2 games against the other races. The 2 first of each group, will go the the fourth round.
- The Fourth round will be done with 2 Groups of 2 AIs each one, and every AI will need to win 2 games against their opponent, to get a place in the final
- The Final will be played between 2 AI races, and to win, an AI will need to defeat their opponent 3 times.

- The 6 First places in the previous contest (Narn Regime, Pyrochette, EEE, United Flora, Aquilaeian and Earth Alliance), will be the heads of every group and will decide what group is assigned to each one, using a random function.

- Using a random function, will assign the Groups for the other races.

What AI's?
========

Here the initial list of races (in alphabetical order!), that would include:

Angelican Regency
Aquilaeian
Azorani
Colonial
Crylonite ======> An AI script that I'm finishing!
Cylon
Drakol
Earth Alliance
Eee
EEEvil Empire
Fazrah
Gron
Klingon
Narn Regime
Namovans
Orks
Piundon
Praetorians
Pyrochette
Rage
Romulan
Sergetti
Shadows
Star Wars Empire
Space Vikings
Toron
United Flora
Vaxin
Xiathi
XiChung

This is not a closed list.
For example, some races (like the SWEmpire, Angelican Regency and the EEEvil), had AI scripts that were not changed from a long time ago... then, I'm open to replace them for other races (if someone suggest a different one).
Also, have not included some AIs that belong to God Emperor (like Jraenar and Ukra Tal), because I consider them so close to other of his races, but could consider to change this if does exist people that want them.

MAP
====
Will use a custom map, similar to the previous contest.

STARTING DATE
=============

Would like to start the next Saturday 22 of Feb.

Finally, want to say that I'm open to any kind of suggestions, then if you have some, please post it.

Rexxx

February 17th, 2003, 10:48 AM

Great idea. The Last contest was pure fun and helped me a lot.

I would prefer a small AI bonus but only one starting planet. There is no special reason behind this, it's just the way I play my solo games.

Some thoughts about the map:
It would be nice when the values of the asteroids belts could be more random. In your Last map all of them come with values of 100%. Creating planets for mining/refining/farming was almost impossible.
IIRC the old map contained only "specialized" systems. E.g. the first one had only planets with 140% minerals, 100% rads and orgs, the second one only planets with 140% rads, 100% minerals and orgs and so on. I would prefer systems which lead to the construction of different colony types as it is in the normal game.
Some planets came with values of 0% for mierals/rads and orgs. Again, this normally doesn't exist in the normal game and is a disadvantage for races who try to "diversify" their construction queues (building mining facilities on research compounds etc.) like the EEE for example. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Would it be possible to include the Khrel, an AI I'm currently working on? After peaceful gas giant races I tried bloodthirsty "rockies" and I would very much like to see how they work.

primitive

February 17th, 2003, 12:33 PM

Master B:
The first AI-deathmatch was one of the major reasons I decided to come out of lurkedom. Great stuff.

Looking forward to the next one also. Just one comment:
Where are the Cue Cappa ?
They was clearly (one of) the best races before the patch, and I think they also will have a great opportunity now (they are the only race I have seen that actually capture planets on a regular basis instead of just glazing them).

Atraikius

February 17th, 2003, 03:31 PM

MB - Thanks for running an AI contest again, the Last one was very useful. I'll email some changes to the Orks tomorrow or wednesday.

God Emperor

February 17th, 2003, 03:31 PM

MB,
Wouldnt mind adding the Toltayans and Sallega to the challenger list. Have done a few different things with both of them.

Regards,

GE

Mephisto

February 17th, 2003, 03:52 PM

You could remove the Xiati (if you use my AI files for them that is) from the list because they are identical to the Narn.

Master Belisarius

February 18th, 2003, 02:02 AM

Originally posted by Rexxx:
I would prefer a small AI bonus but only one starting planet. There is no special reason behind this, it's just the way I play my solo games.
Still I would like to have 3 starting planets (it's just the way I play my solo games!!!), but if more people want less planets, no problem.

Originally posted by Rexxx:
Some thoughts about the map:
It would be nice when the values of the asteroids belts could be more random. In your Last map all of them come with values of 100%. Creating planets for mining/refining/farming was almost impossible.
Is not a problem to me change the values, but I'm against the random solutions, because would be unfair, and because I'm the random factor!!!
Considering that most of the systems has 5 asteroie>quote:<hr />Originally posted by God Emperor:
MB,
Wouldnt mind adding the Toltayans and Sallega to the challenger list. Have done a few different things with both of them.
Regards,
GE<hr /></blockquote>Believeme: really I regret that my language skills are so basics!!!!
Think you want to include the Toltayans and Sallega. If they're different races, it's ok with me.

Master Belisarius

February 18th, 2003, 02:20 AM

Originally posted by Mephisto:
You could remove the Xiati (if you use my AI files for them that is) from the list because they are identical to the Narn.Thanks Mephisto!! You posted it more than once... but I forget it!
Thanks again!

Then, here is the list for now:

Aquilaeian
Azorani
Colonial
Crylonite
Cue Cappa
Cylon
Drakol
Earth Alliance
Eee
Fazrah
Gron
Khrel
Klingon
Narn Regime
Namovans
Orks
Piundon
Praetorians
Pyrochette
Rage
Romulan
Sallega
Sergetti
Shadows
Space Vikings
Toltayans
Toron
United Flora
Vaxin
XiChung

Master Belisarius

February 18th, 2003, 02:21 AM

Originally posted by Atraikius:
MB - Thanks for running an AI contest again, the Last one was very useful. I'll email some changes to the Orks tomorrow or wednesday.http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Thanks to you Atraikius!
And yes, send me the files when you want.

Gandalph

February 18th, 2003, 05:34 AM

Would it be possible to get another race into the mix? I wouldn't mind checking to see how my own AI's stack up.

Rexxx

February 18th, 2003, 01:14 PM

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:

Still I would like to have 3 starting planets (it's just the way I play my solo games!!!), but if more people want less planets, no problem.Hey, you'll do all the work (as you did the Last time). It's only fair then to use your preferences.

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
Is not a problem to me change the values, but I'm against the random solutions, because would be unfair, and because I'm the random factor!!!
Considering that most of the systems has 5 asteroids, I could create one asteroid for Mineral, other for Farm, other for Radioactives, other for Research/Intel, and one more with possibilities for Mineral/Farm/Rad (for example 120%/120%/120%).That's exactly what I meant. Instead of "random" I should have written "different" values.

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
Good points.
But:
- I'm not sure about how to keep the balance, creating more diversity.
- A system with planets with 140%/100%/100%, would be ok as Farming or Rad, if the AI is lack of resources in one of these things.Good points, too.

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
Replace the planets with 0%/0%/0% for something like 70%/70%/70%, it's ok with me. That would be great.

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
But if you want something different in the "specialized" systems for resources, as I wrote above, really I'm not sure how to keep it balanced for all the AI's (all the atmospheres including "none", and the Gas, Rock and Ice colonizations).Again, good point. The only solution I can think of would be raising the number of planets per system and giving it a second thought it's probably not worth the effort.

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
Then, please don't take offense, and if you want, feel free to change the original map to your taste, and send me a copy. I will be happy to see and apply your ideas if consider it fair for all the kind of races.No offense taken. That's just fair.

Thanks for including the Khrel. I will send the files on Friday.

Cirvol

February 18th, 2003, 04:27 PM

this sounds pretty cool http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

good idea...

i only wish we could do real heuristic ai programming, using alpha-beta trees and whatnot like the chess programs do http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Master Belisarius

February 18th, 2003, 11:47 PM

Originally posted by Gandalph:
Would it be possible to get another race into the mix? I wouldn't mind checking to see how my own AI's stack up.The answer is "yes".
I could extend the limit from 30 to 32 (with 8 Groups with 4 each).
Send me the files.

Master Belisarius

February 18th, 2003, 11:48 PM

Originally posted by Rexxx:
Thanks for including the Khrel. I will send the files on Friday.No problem!
And again, thanks for your suggestions!!!!

Dralasite

February 20th, 2003, 05:07 PM

Excellent! The previous death match was great. I'm glad to see there will be another one.

Master Belisarius

February 20th, 2003, 11:53 PM

Originally posted by Dralasite:
Excellent! The previous death match was great. I'm glad to see there will be another one.Hope this one will be interesting... considering that more AIs will be involved, and that most of the AI modders did several improvements to their races.

Atraikius

February 22nd, 2003, 02:23 AM

MB - I uploaded the Latest AI for the Orks in the races archives (also putting the link here)

1045832020.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1045832020.zip)

[ February 21, 2003, 12:54: Message edited by: Atraikius ]

Master Belisarius

February 22nd, 2003, 11:52 PM

Ok, I have decided the AI list and the new fixture.

After include the 3 Gandalf's AIs, needed to remove one more from the original list...
Then, the decision was between the Vaxin and the XiChung. Both races performed not well in the first contest, but because the XiChung has some updates, then, the Vaxin was the excluded race.

Here the Groups and the Races:

GROUP A1
Narn Regime
Cylon
Praetorians
Fazrah

GROUP A2
Pyrochette
Romulan
Orks
Piundon

GROUP A3
Eee
Colonial
Klingon
Ekhazan

GROUP A4
United Flora
Sergetti
Sallega
Khrel

GROUP A5
Earth Alliance
Drakol
Corrian
Cue Cappa

GROUP A6
Aquilaeian
Gron
Toltayans
Azorani

GROUP A7
Space Vikings
Shadows
Namovans
Tessellate

GROUP A8
Toron
Tesli'k
Rage
XiChung

I'll play 3 games for every AI, and the 3 first of every group, will go to the Second Round.
Here the Fixture: Death Match 2 Fixture.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1045950684.zip)

With this format, will take me more time finish the contest... but think will be more fair to determine the best AIs.

[ February 22, 2003, 21:53: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

God Emperor

February 23rd, 2003, 04:43 AM

Sounds good MB!

Appreciate your efforts.

Regards

GE

Master Belisarius

February 24th, 2003, 02:33 AM

The contest has been started!

The Narn Regime and the Cylons are fighting now.

Turn 61.
The Narn are first, already have the Talisman and can colonize Gas.
The Cylons are using Drones and only can colonize Rock.

Turn 139.
Although the Narn have a great advantage in numbers, still have not started an offensive into the Cylon's systems.

Turn 187.
Still the Narn have not invaded the Cylon.
Think that I know the reason:
The Narn have the option to do not go into minefields, and seems to be that they doesn't built enough minesweepers. For example, at this turn they have "none".

The Cylons are ok for now.
They have the Wave-Motion Guns... but I did several combats 5 Cylons Dreadnoughts vs 5 Narn Dreadnought, and usually the Narn won without loses.

Turn 228.
Finally the Narn decided that's time to attack.
They have invaded Rove and started to attack the Cuyrok system.

Turn 237.
The Narn control Rove, have destroyed the star at Abrion, have enough minesweepers and think nothing can stop them...

Turn 270.
Game over. The Narn got a deserved victory.
Here the link: Narn_vs_Cylon.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1046053005.zip)

[ February 24, 2003, 02:18: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

Master Belisarius

February 25th, 2003, 12:34 AM

Praetorians vs Fazrah.

The Fazrah were during all the match ahead in the numbers and always had the initiative.
Although the Fazrah doesn't used PPB, the Shield Depleters + Torpedoes demonstrated to be a very decent option to fight.
After the battles for Aargau, the Praetorinas had many riots and their fate very difficult to change.
Now that the MC are hardcoded, the Praetorians had some problems with their ship designes: are using 2 Master Computers.

The Fazrah won at the turn 210.

Here the Files: Praetorians_vs_Fazrah_A1.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1046125205.zip)

Master Belisarius

February 25th, 2003, 12:41 AM

Pyrochette vs Romulan.

The Romulan had a better start, and colonized more fastest their nearest systems.
In fact, at the turn 50 they colonized a planet into the Baksha system, and had more ships inside the Pyrochette's territory.

At the turn 100 the Pyrochette were ahead in the numbers (1.4 M vs 735 K), but the situation seemed balanced. Bassically, the Pyrochette had a lot more of ships.
At this point I did a test comparing the Attack Ship designes (the Romulan had also the problem with the Master Computer), and the results were balanced.

At the turn 140 the Pyrochette started an offensive at the Rove system. At the turn 150, still they were trying to erase the Romulans at this system.

At the turn 160 the Pyrochette controled Rove, and the Romulans had started to be in hard problems.
The Romulans had the problem that time in time occur to an AI: have so many colony ships for Rock planets, and then, doesn't created colony ships to colonize their available Ice and Gas planets.

At the turn 200, the Romulans lost Abrion, Butukret and Rove, and several Pyrochette's fleets are inside their systems. The game looks decided.

Turn 220, and the Pyrochette won.

Here the files: Pyrochette_vs_Romulans_A2.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1046126476.zip)

[ February 24, 2003, 22:43: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

Master Belisarius

February 25th, 2003, 01:00 AM

Orks vs Piundon.

Turn 89 and the Orks are ahed in numbers.
Also, had some planets and ships inside the systems Butukret and Rove.

Turn 153.
Ther Orks control mostly Rove and Butukret... then, think will be difficult for the Piundon.

Turn 190.
The Orks control most of the galaxy... and the Piundon has no hope.
Have noted that the Piundon attack ships, have not supply storage components. Think this could be a big problems against races that like to use Ionic Dispersers.

Turn 215.
The Piundon will fall soon...
The Orks destroyed several planets using Planet Destroyers...
Also, Atraikius demonstrated once again, that he's one of the most ingenious AI modders: the Orks used Baseships as Carriers!! (Although these "Carriers" designs could be improved a bit! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ). Well done Atraikius! You have expanded the bounds again!
A tip: I found that the Troop Transports could be a Starship too, when was doing the Tessellates (but in my case was an accident).

Turn 223.
After destroy the 3 Piundon's homeworlds with the Planet destroyers, game over: the Orks won.

Here the files:
Orks_vs_Piundon_A2.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1046135224.zip)

[ February 25, 2003, 01:15: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

God Emperor

February 25th, 2003, 01:39 AM

MB,
Thanks for the heads up on the Master Computer issue. Havent had a chance to review that aspect of the new patch. Will include a fix in my post Death Match revision.
Regarding the Rock Coloniser problem, cant think of much to fix it at this point - the AI_Construction_Vehicles file is optimised for medium to large galaxies in terms of the number of colonisers that are produced.
Thanks for the reports!
Regards,

GE

Master Belisarius

February 25th, 2003, 02:07 AM

Originally posted by God Emperor:
MB,
Thanks for the heads up on the Master Computer issue. Havent had a chance to review that aspect of the new patch. Will include a fix in my post Death Match revision.
GENo problem. I believed that already you should know it... but just to be sure.

Originally posted by God Emperor:

Regarding the Rock Coloniser problem, cant think of much to fix it at this point - the AI_Construction_Vehicles file is optimised for medium to large galaxies in terms of the number of colonisers that are produced.
GE100% in agreement with you... Think is mostly random. But in races that like to send their ships through enemy minefields, this problem is less common, because they lose the "excedent" of colony ships.

[ February 25, 2003, 00:20: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

Dralasite

February 25th, 2003, 02:56 AM

Thanks MB! I really enjoy reading the turn by turn updates on how the AIs are doing against each other.

Master Belisarius

February 25th, 2003, 03:18 AM

Originally posted by Dralasite:
Thanks MB! I really enjoy reading the turn by turn updates on how the AIs are doing against each other.http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Thanks!
When I have time, always like to write at least a few lines about every game.

Master Belisarius

February 25th, 2003, 03:45 AM

EEE vs Colonials.

Turn 77.
Seems to be that Adamus is not a so good guy... both races are at war!
The EEE is ahead in the numbers, and have colonized the systems Abrion, Butukret and Rove before the Colonials... Now I understand why Adamus became mad!

Turn 101.
The Colonials colonized some planets at Abrion, Butukret and Rove, and destroyed a few EEE colonies, but doesn't look they could really remove the EEE from there.

Turn 120.
The Colonias were fighitng with some success: at least the EEE were unable to invade their other systems, and the Colonials are killing some EEE colonies.

Turn 141.
The things looks bad for the Colonials: the EEE consolided the control at Abrion, Butukret and Rove, and have started to invade the other systems...

Turn 163.
The Colonials were able to destroy most of the EEE planets at Rove.
But seems that's only a question of time: when the EEE finally decide to send their dreadnoughts with Quantum Reactors to finish the Colonials... will be game over.

Turn 188.
Still the Colonials are fighting for their life! They have erased the EEE planets at Rove, and colonize one there.
Also, the EEE was not colonized all of the available plantes. Not weird considering the knew problem with all the AIs... but the not usual thing, is that they only have 5 Colony Gas ships.
This looks like the right reason, because the Colonials still were not defeated.

Turn 211.
Now the EEE created some planets, then, were able to use their Gas colony ships.
They now built 2 Ice Colony Ships and 1 Rock Colony Ship.

Turn 243.
The Colonials are falling. Also, the EEE are using Planet Destroyers...

Turn 259.
Game over: the EEE won.

Here the link: EEE_vs_Colonial_A3.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1046141335.zip)

I'm starting the game Klingon vs Ekhazan, and going to sleep.

[ February 25, 2003, 02:54: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

Rexxx

February 25th, 2003, 11:22 AM

Without the "calling for names in the construction_vehicles-file" thing (v 1.61) working these colonizer dead ends will become an annoying issue again, especially in games between peaceful races.
It will become a question of sheer luck if an AI gets stuck or not (is there an colonizer slot available in the construction file when the next colonizing tech is discovered or not). If not please wait for the first create planet ship to be built and the first planet to be created (hopefully of the right type for your waiting colonizers). In the meantime sit back and watch your frozen empire.

Of yourse, there is another workaround. But only for the more suicidal races http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
But in races that like to send their ships through enemy minefields, this problem is less common, because they lose the "excedent" of colony ships.This issue has been reported to MM several months ago, unfortunately nothing has changed.

Master Belisarius

February 25th, 2003, 01:18 PM

Klingon vs Ekhazan.
The Klingon won at the turn 180.
During all the game they have the initiative, and although the Ekhazan had not bad ship designes, they were unable to stop the Klingons (well... also must say that now the AS is near to useless).

Here the link: Klingon_vs_Ekhazan.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1046171863.zip)

Atraikius

February 26th, 2003, 02:32 AM

Also, Atraikius demonstrated once again, that he's one of the most ingenious AI modders: the Orks used Baseships as Carriers!! (Although these "Carriers" designs could be improved a bit! ). Well done Atraikius! You have expanded the bounds again!
A tip: I found that the Troop Transports could be a Starship too, when was doing the Tessellates (but in my case was an accident).
Thanks MB. The troop transport Baseships are rather fun too (have UCE and Chaos using them), just haven't played with them enough to clean up the designs yet.

Master Belisarius

February 26th, 2003, 04:21 AM

United Flora vs Sergetti.

Turn 130.
The United Flora are ahead in numbers, but the Sergetti are keeping their borders.
The Sergetti have problems with their ship designes.
Although the Sergetti have Shields 9, still their attack ships have not Phased shields. It looks like a hardcoded problem.
I can bet that it will be fixed in the next turns, but I saw before this kind of problems.

Think it happen because the Sergetti researched all the weapons that need for their beam attack ships (at this case, PPB V), then, the AI doesn't believe that need to update their ship design.

It will be fixed, after some turns (I believe that every 20 turns or something like that without tech level changes in the weapons, the AI redesign their ships).

Turn 150.
Now the Sergetti ships are using Phased shields... but their main ship is now a BC instead a DN. This is the result of the behaviour detailed before.
To avoid this problem in my own AIs, I have designed at least 2 kind of attack DN, with DIFFERENT WEAPONS. Then, the AI alternate the designes without use a BC or lesser ship size.

This is valid for the units too...

Turn 194.
The Sergetti are loosing the game. They doesn't control Abrion and Rove anymore, and the UF invaded other of their systems.

Turn 251.
Game Over. The UF won without problems.

Here the Files: UFlora_vs_Sergetti_A4.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1046229776.zip)

Now I'm starting the game Sallega vs Khrel, and going to sleep...

[ February 26, 2003, 03:31: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

oleg

February 26th, 2003, 01:29 PM

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
United Flora vs Sergetti.

It will be fixed, after some turns (I believe that every 20 turns or something like that without tech level changes in the weapons, the AI redesign their ships).

...AI redesign ships every 10 turns regardless of research advances.

Master Belisarius

February 26th, 2003, 03:25 PM

Originally posted by oleg:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
United Flora vs Sergetti.

It will be fixed, after some turns (I believe that every 20 turns or something like that without tech level changes in the weapons, the AI redesign their ships).

...AI redesign ships every 10 turns regardless of research advances.<hr /></blockquote>Hi Oleg!

If you can, please download the zip of this game.
You will see that at the Turn 130 the Sergetti had a DN with standard Shields V.
At the turn 140, if my memory is not wrong, the Sergetti still had a DN with standard Shields V as main beam ship.
At the turn 150, they had a BC with Phased Shields V.

Think this behavior occur when the AI researched all the possible techs for the weapons in their attack ships.
I could be wrong (should be not the first time!), but this was my experience.

oleg

February 26th, 2003, 09:18 PM

I checked files. It seems design creation in this case is not tailored to date or research progress, but to a signal from construction_vehicles to build new ships of the class ! That is if no new ships are needed, none are designed. I recall seeing something like this but not sure how often and when it happens.

oleg

February 26th, 2003, 11:45 PM

Hmmm, I might be wrong. Sergetti build point-defence cruisers with designes 40 turns old !

Master Belisarius

February 26th, 2003, 11:54 PM

Originally posted by oleg:
Hmmm, I might be wrong. Sergetti build point-defence cruisers with designes 40 turns old !http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Don't worry... not always is easy try to find a patern in the AI behavior.

Master Belisarius

February 27th, 2003, 12:27 AM

Sallega vs Khrel

Turn 50.
The Sallega are ahead in the numbers, and expanded well, with colonies in Butukret and Rove.
Anyway, I did test between Sallega's BC attack ships against LC Khrel ships, most the time the Khrel ships won.

Turn 100.
The Khrel control now their nearest systems, and have a fleet into the Aargau system, and are first in the numbers.
Now, a BC Sallega can defeat without problems the CR Khrel ships.

Turn 150.
Similar to above... only that now the Khrel erased the Sallega colonies at Aargau, although does exist a big fleet of them in that system.

Turn 200.
The Sallega are falling. The Khrel control Aargau, Ashadra, mostly Baksha and started to destroy planets at Aar.

Turn 240. Game over: the Khrel won.

Here the files: Sallega_vs_Khrel_A4.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1046298259.zip)

[ February 26, 2003, 22:27: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

Master Belisarius

February 27th, 2003, 12:56 AM

Earth Alliance vs Drakol
Turn 50.
But races signed a TR alliance, and the EA is ahead in the numbers. Both races colonized their nearest systems.

Turn 90.
Similar to above. The EA have the double of points.

Turn 100.
Idem. But now the EA colonized 79 planets and the Drakol 32.
The Drakol have the problem with the Colony ships... They only have built 5 and are only gas colonies.

Turn 150.
Now they are at war (thanks God!).
And although nothing happened yet, the situation doesn't look well for the Drakol.

Turn 210.
The Drakol lost Rove and mostly Cuyrok.
They have not colonized most of the available planets.
Although undesrtand it's a bug, still they never had many colony ships... For example, at this point they only have 3.

Turn 300.
The EA won.

Here the link: EA_vs_Drakol_A5.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1046304304.zip)

[ February 27, 2003, 00:05: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

Master Belisarius

February 27th, 2003, 02:13 AM

Corrian vs CueCappa.

Turn 53.
The Corrian colonized the systems in contact with their homeworld, but doesn't explored the other systems.
In the other hand, the Cue Cappa already have colonies at AAr, Baksha and the next turn in Aargau.

Turn 70.
The CueCappa started to kill the Corrian systems... seems to be that this will be a very fast game.

Turn 100.
Game Over. The Cue Cappa won very fast!

Here the files: Corrian_vs_CueCappa_A5.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1046306540.zip)

[ February 27, 2003, 00:54: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

Dralasite

February 28th, 2003, 12:23 AM

So far the colony ship bug is the big one to get over in this death match. I don't remember it being as common in the previous one, did the new patch change anything related to this (besides always using MC)?

As always, thanks for doing the contest!

Master Belisarius

February 28th, 2003, 01:18 AM

Aquilaeian vs Gron.

A very looong game (more than 13 hours playing).
The Gron won by points.
Although during a good time, the Aquilaeian suffered the Colony ship bug (they only built Ice Colony ships), think the Gron got a deserved victory: think is very difficult for an AI, try to defeat the Talisman.

Here the Link: Aquilaeian_vs_Gron_A6.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1046386400.zip)

Master Belisarius

February 28th, 2003, 01:25 AM

Originally posted by Dralasite:
So far the colony ship bug is the big one to get over in this death match. I don't remember it being as common in the previous one, did the new patch change anything related to this (besides always using MC)?

As always, thanks for doing the contest!Think that probably is that this time, we're using small bonus.
The AI have more resources, research more fast and think, have some problems to expand.

Master Belisarius

February 28th, 2003, 03:18 AM

Toltayan vs Azorani.

Until the Turn 150, the Azorani were down in the numbers and trying to defend their external systems (that had several Toltayan's colonies and fleets).
But after it, the Azorani started to counter-attack and invaded the Toltayan systems.

The Azorani won at the turn 270.

Here the link: Toltayan_vs_Azorani_A6.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1046394960.zip)

God Emperor

February 28th, 2003, 01:25 PM

MB,
Sounds like I need to raise the number of attack ships in the AI_Construction_Vehicles file for my races. Toltayans are the second of my races to be ahead and then get overtaken in ship numbers mid game.
Will add it to my list of changes.
Thanks,

GE

Master Belisarius

March 1st, 2003, 12:25 AM

Originally posted by God Emperor:
MB,
Sounds like I need to raise the number of attack ships in the AI_Construction_Vehicles file for my races. Toltayans are the second of my races to be ahead and then get overtaken in ship numbers mid game.
Will add it to my list of changes.
Thanks,

GEI'm happy if can help in some way to improve your AIs (and the AIs of others!).

Master Belisarius

March 1st, 2003, 12:50 AM

Vikings vs Shadows.

Turn 50.
Shadows ahead in the numbers, but the Vikings have planets in Rove and Abrion.
Also, doing test between CR attack ships of both races, the Shadows are unable to defeat the Viking ships:
- the PPB are very powerful.
- the Shadows have problem to hit the Viking's ships.
- The CR of the Shadows had not Shields, then the Ionic dispersers are a real problem for them.

Turn 100.
The Shadows have the double of points of the Vikings, and control all of their systems.
Did test again between BC of both races, with very bad results for the Shadows: they can't hit the Viking's ships.

Turn 150.
The Shadows first in the numbers, they control (except one planet) the Aar system, and have a good fleet into the Arkite system.
The Vikings did a hole between Butukret and Cewandi.

Turn 200.
Now the Vikings are first!
They did several holes into the Shadow's systems... and killed their homeworlds. A near to intelligent move!!

Turn 250.
The Shadows are falling (in fact, now they're in the 3rd place).

Turn 320.
Game over, the Vikings won.

Here the link: Vikings_vs_Shadows_A7.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1046472140.zip)

[ February 28, 2003, 22:51: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

Master Belisarius

March 1st, 2003, 02:54 AM

Namovans vs Tessellate.

The Namovans never were able to stop the Tessellate... then, the Tessellate won at the turn 180.

Here the link: Namovans_vs_Tessellate_A7.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1046479917.zip)

[ March 01, 2003, 00:55: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

Master Belisarius

March 1st, 2003, 03:23 AM

Toron vs Teslik.

Turn 50.
The Teslik are playing a good game, and are ahead in the numbers.

Turn 70.
Although the Toron have colonized most of their available planets (one more game without the Colony ship bug!), still they're down in the numbers.
For now, both races have control over their nearest systems.

Turn 90.
The Toron are now ahead. The reason, think, is that the Teslik still can't colonize Ice planets.

Turn 105.
Now the Toron control Rove... and the things seems bad for the Teslik.
Also, the trained Toron's ships are a real problem for the Teslik.

Turn 125.
The Toron started to invad Butukret... and looks like the Teslik can't change their fate.

Turn 156.
The Teslik are losing their systems, and will fall under the Toron attacks.

Turn 186.
The Teslik only have 2 remainder planets...
But their Last homeworld have killed lots and lots of Toron's ships! In fact erased 3 or 4 big fleets. They have aprox 20 weapon platforms there... and did a great work defending the planet.

Turn 198.
Game over. A fleet of 45 ships erased the Last Teslik's planets.

Here the link: Toron_vs_Teslik_A8.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1046485119.zip)

[ March 01, 2003, 02:19: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

Master Belisarius

March 1st, 2003, 03:08 PM

Rage vs XiChung.

During all the game, the Rage had the initiative and the XiChung were unable to stop them... and then the Rage won at the turn 290.

Here the link: Rage_vs_XiChung_A8.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1046523832.zip)

Master Belisarius

March 1st, 2003, 03:31 PM

Narn vs Praetorian.

What a weird game!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Turn 60.
The game looks balanced. Both races control their nearest systems.

Turn 200-210.
The Praetorians are winning. Control most of the galaxy, and the Narn only control 4 systems.

Turn 290.
The Praetorians are DEAD and the Narn won!!!

Every time the Narn can have a decent fleet of DN attack ships (with the Talisman, of course), the other AI races can't stop them...

Here the link: Narn_vs_Praetorians_A1.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1046525417.zip)

Master Belisarius

March 1st, 2003, 06:39 PM

Cylon vs Fazrah.

A very fast game... the Fazrah killed the Cylon before the turn 140.

Here the link: Cylon_vs_Fazrah_A1.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1046534842.zip)

Now the game between the Cylon and the Praetorians will decide who will continue to the next round.

Master Belisarius

March 2nd, 2003, 05:38 AM

Orks vs Pyrochette.

The Pyrochette won at the turn 250.
Thanks God the Orks surrendered their Last planets, because was a nightmare wait for every turn...
Don't know, maybe was that the Pyrochette managed many Drones, but for 250 turn they needed 5 hours.

Here the Link: Orks_vs_Pyrochette_A2.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1046576305.zip)

Master Belisarius

March 2nd, 2003, 04:39 PM

Romulan vs Piundon.

The Piundon had a very slow start, and during a good part of the game, they were trying to protect their external systems (and in fact played most the time without Rove).
But when the Piundon got the Dreadnoughts and was able to colonize all the kind of planets, they started to change the game.

The Piundon won at the turn 440.

Link: Romulan_vs_Piundon_A2.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1046615672.zip)

mlmbd

March 2nd, 2003, 04:48 PM

Master Belisarius, some 'very' interesting results!

I'm happy if can help in some way to improve your AIs (and the AIs of others!). OK! Thanks! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Oh, do you mind me posting here??

mlmbd http://www.shrapnelgames.com//ubb/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Master Belisarius

March 2nd, 2003, 06:45 PM

Originally posted by mlmbd:
Oh, do you mind me posting here??

mlmbd http://www.shrapnelgames.com//ubb/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Of course NOT! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ March 02, 2003, 16:46: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

Master Belisarius

March 2nd, 2003, 06:50 PM

Klingon vs EEE.

The EEE won a deserved game against the Klingon.

Link: Klingon_vs_EEE_A3.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1046623696.zip)

[ March 02, 2003, 16:51: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

Gandalph

March 2nd, 2003, 09:55 PM

In defense of my races, thse AI's were written for 1.67 and the only change since then was to make them compatible with 1.78. I will now be using these games to visualize and implement the necessary improvements to make them perform better in AI Death Match 3 (if there is one). Thanks for the news MB.

Rexxx

March 2nd, 2003, 11:09 PM

I find it interesting that - so far - every game ended in war. I never had guessed that the games between the Narn and the Praetorians or the EEE and the Klingons would have ended in this way. I always thought of these races as peaceful.

Regarding this colony bug: Did anyone encounter it before? If yes, was it a turn based or a simultaneous game?

Hi MB
Your batch program is great, just great!

[ March 02, 2003, 21:10: Message edited by: Rexxx ]

Master Belisarius

March 2nd, 2003, 11:30 PM

Originally posted by Gandalph:
In defense of my races, thse AI's were written for 1.67 and the only change since then was to make them compatible with 1.78. I will now be using these games to visualize and implement the necessary improvements to make them perform better in AI Death Match 3 (if there is one). Thanks for the news MB.Sure, don't worry Gandalph!
The idea is that every modder will have elements to compare and improve their races.

If we can find a work-around for the "colony bug", probably I'll run a new contest.

Master Belisarius

March 2nd, 2003, 11:38 PM

Originally posted by Rexxx:
I find it interesting that - so far - every game ended in war. I never had guessed that the games between the Narn and the Praetorians or the EEE and the Klingons would have ended in this way. I always thought of these races as peaceful.
Yea... to me was more weird the game between the Narn and Praetorians.

Originally posted by Rexxx:

Regarding this colony bug: Did anyone encounter it before? If yes, was it a turn based or a simultaneous game?
Sometimes... I remember some games with a cluster galaxy, but don't remember if was turn based or simultaneous.
Strange, but as you noted, I confirm that the colony bug depend in what side of the map start the AI.
By the way REXXX, after the Klingon-vs-EEE, I did a EEE-vs-Klingon (just to be sure!), and the EEE still won but needed more time... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Originally posted by Rexxx:

Hi MB
Your batch program is great, just great!Thanks Rexxx! Thanks you have W98... because Fyron was unable to run it.
By the way, I have lost the source code...

Master Belisarius

March 2nd, 2003, 11:47 PM

Colonials vs Ekhazan.

The Colonials won at the turn 220.

Link to the game: Colonials_vs_Ekhazan_A3.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1046641598.zip)

Master Belisarius

March 3rd, 2003, 01:36 AM

Sallega vs United Flora

The United Flora killed the Sallega before the turn 160...
Really I'm pissed by the "colony ship" bug... then did a new game (as test) between both races changing the starting possition... and the UF killed the Sallega before the turn 120!!

The link: Sallega_vs_UFlora_A4.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1046644930.zip)

Crazy_Dog

March 3rd, 2003, 03:01 AM

About the "colony ship" bug, that this AI Match show is a important one, as one of the beta testers reported it to MM, and if yes, exist any response ?

Master Belisarius

March 3rd, 2003, 03:26 AM

Originally posted by Crazy_Dog:
About the "colony ship" bug, that this AI Match show is a important one, as one of the beta testers reported it to MM, and if yes, exist any response ?It was reported but no response yet...

Master Belisarius

March 3rd, 2003, 11:51 PM

Sergetti vs Khrel.

The Khrel won at the turn 280.

Here the link: Sergetti_vs_Khrel.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1046728257.zip)

geoschmo

March 4th, 2003, 12:23 AM

What is the "colony ship bug" you are talking about? What is happening?

Geoschmo

Dralasite

March 4th, 2003, 12:36 AM

This is from an earlier post from Rexxx that describes the bug...

Without the "calling for names in the construction_vehicles-file" thing (v 1.61) working these colonizer dead ends will become an annoying issue again, especially in games between peaceful races.
It will become a question of sheer luck if an AI gets stuck or not (is there an colonizer slot available in the construction file when the next colonizing tech is discovered or not). If not please wait for the first create planet ship to be built and the first planet to be created (hopefully of the right type for your waiting colonizers). In the meantime sit back and watch your frozen empire.

Master Belisarius

March 4th, 2003, 02:31 AM

Originally posted by geoschmo:
What is the "colony ship bug" you are talking about? What is happening?

GeoschmoAlthough the AI could have available different kind of planets to colonize and the technology to colonize them, only build the same type of colonizer (for example rock), then, never colonize the ICE and GAS availabe planets.
Seems to happen in simultaneous, and depending of the starting possition.

oleg

March 4th, 2003, 02:43 AM

Darn. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif Probably will have to rework construction_vehicles files for my AI . JUST IN CASE !

Master Belisarius

March 4th, 2003, 03:44 AM

Two fast games:

Drakol vs Earth Alliance.
The EA won at the turn 180.
Link: Drakol_vs_EA_A5.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1046741891.zip)

Corrian vs CueCappa.
The CueCappa won at the turn 180
Link: Corrian_vs_A5.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1046742197.zip)

Rexxx

March 4th, 2003, 03:45 AM

Just to get things straight:
The "colonizer dead ends" are a known - yet unsolved - issue.
The colony bug Master Belisarius described is new and it's a quite nasty one.

Master Belisarius

March 5th, 2003, 12:57 AM

Two more games.

Toltayan vs Aquilaeian.
The Aquilaeian won at the turn 167.

Link:
Toltayan_vs_Aquilaeian_A6.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1046815118.zip)

Gron vs Azorani.
The Gron won at the turn 470.

Link: Gron_vs_Azorani_A6.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1046818445.zip) (A big file!)

[ March 04, 2003, 22:58: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

Master Belisarius

March 5th, 2003, 03:08 AM

And two more...

Namovans vs Vikings.
The Vikings defeated the Namovans before the turn 190.

And here the link: Namovans_vs_Vikings_A7.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1046826064.zip)

Shadows vs Tessellate.
The Tessellate defeted the Shadows fast, at the turn 166.
Because the Shadows use ships without shields (or low on it) but strong in Organic Armors, had not way to stop the Tessellate's weapons + the Talisman...

The link: Shadows_vs_Tessellate_A7.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1046826485.zip)

[ March 05, 2003, 01:10: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

Master Belisarius

March 5th, 2003, 05:21 AM

Rage vs Toron.

It was one of the best games of this contest, IMHO.

The Rage used their heavy arsenal, and destroyed the stars in 3 Toron systems, and created a Black Hole in other 2...
The Rage won at the turn 191.

Here the link: Rage_vs_Toron_A8.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1046834396.zip)

oleg

March 5th, 2003, 12:48 PM

Originally posted by Rexxx:
Just to get things straight:
The "colonizer dead ends" are a known - yet unsolved - issue.
The colony bug Master Belisarius described is new and it's a quite nasty one.It MAY be related to one known problem:

For example, you have several "attack ship" designs in "AI_design.txt" file. Now, if you call for "attack ship" in "creation_vehicles.txt" txt file, AI will build only the design it first encounter - the one closeset to the begining of design.txt file.

The same could happen with colonizers. If you have:
Colony Rock
...
Colony Ice
...
Colony Gas
...
in design.txt file, AI will build only Rock colony ships ! I know it should not happen - AI treats colonizers differently than other ships, but it still can happen. "colonizer dead ends" is a very good example ! I suggest to reorganize design.txt file. For example Rock races should have Rock colonizers at the bottom. May be it will help.

Rexxx

March 5th, 2003, 01:17 PM

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
Rage vs Toron.
The Rage used their heavy arsenal, and destroyed the stars in 3 Toron systems, and created a Black Hole in other 2...
That's interesting. In v.1.78 (turn based games) I never get the Inverted Quantum Beam to work. The destroy star ships always did what they were designed for but never the create black hole ships. Have to try it again.

Master Belisarius

March 5th, 2003, 03:19 PM

Originally posted by oleg:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Rexxx:
Just to get things straight:
The "colonizer dead ends" are a known - yet unsolved - issue.
The colony bug Master Belisarius described is new and it's a quite nasty one.It MAY be related to one known problem:

For example, you have several "attack ship" designs in "AI_design.txt" file. Now, if you call for "attack ship" in "creation_vehicles.txt" txt file, AI will build only the design it first encounter - the one closeset to the begining of design.txt file.

The same could happen with colonizers. If you have:
Colony Rock
...
Colony Ice
...
Colony Gas
...
in design.txt file, AI will build only Rock colony ships ! I know it should not happen - AI treats colonizers differently than other ships, but it still can happen. "colonizer dead ends" is a very good example ! I suggest to reorganize design.txt file. For example Rock races should have Rock colonizers at the bottom. May be it will help.<hr /></blockquote>I don't think this is the reason. For example check the Aquilaeian vs Gron game (long file to download!). For more than 100 turns, the Aquilaeian built only ICE colonies... and the ICE colonies were in middle between Rock and Gas designes...

Master Belisarius

March 5th, 2003, 03:47 PM

Originally posted by Rexxx:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
Gron vs Azorani.
The Gron won at the turn 470.
Well, after checking the Gron savegames I have to say again how helpful for me this contest is.
From time to time (every second or third turn) the Gron think of a LC equipped with CSMs as their best short range attack ship (I guess due to a lousy oversight in the design-file). Not the smartest thing a talisman race can do in mid- and endgame when they can have a DN coming with TKPs and the Talisman.<hr /></blockquote>I saw this problem with most of the modded AI races...

In other of my Posts on this topic, I wrote the work-around that in my view fix this problem (talking about the problem with the Sergetti's ships).
When does exist several ship designes with different sizes, at some point, the AI start to rebuild their ships using small designes (old designes!).
This start to occur (at least in the cases that I knew), after some time the AI reach the DN size. But think in some way is also related to the weapon that currently is using for the DN.
An example, the Tessellate attack ships.
As most the modders, I did different attack ships, depending of the ship size. Here the DN main design.

Name := Attack Ship
Design Type := Attack Ship
Vehicle Type := Ship
Default Strategy := Maximum Weapons Range
Size Minimum Tonnage := 801
Size Maximum Tonnage := 5000
Num Must Have At Least 1 Ability := 2
Must Have Ability 1 := Weapons Always Hit
Must Have Ability 2 := Quantum Reactor
Minimum Speed := 4
Desired Speed := 6
Majority Weapon Family Pick 1 := 22
Majority Weapon Family Pick 2 := 0
Majority Weapon Family Pick 3 := 0
Majority Weapon Family Pick 4 := 0
Majority Weapon Family Pick 5 := 0
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 1 := 30
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 2 := 0
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 3 := 0
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 4 := 0
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 5 := 0
Shields Spaces Per One := 250
Armor Spaces Per One := 10000
Majority Comp Spaces Per One := 200
Majority Comp Ability := Weapon
Secondary Comp Spaces Per One := 200
Secondary Comp Ability := Weapon
Num Misc Abilities := 7
Misc Ability 1 Name := Cloak Level
Misc Ability 1 Spaces Per One := 10000
Misc Ability 2 Name := Combat To Hit Defense Plus
Misc Ability 2 Spaces Per One := 10000
Misc Ability 3 Name := Point-Defense
Misc Ability 3 Spaces Per One := 250
Misc Ability 4 Name := Self-Destruct
Misc Ability 4 Spaces Per One := 10000
Misc Ability 5 Name := Multiplex Tracking
Misc Ability 5 Spaces Per One := 10000
Misc Ability 6 Name := Extra Movement Generation
Misc Ability 6 Spaces Per One := 10000
Misc Ability 7 Name := Point-Defense
Misc Ability 7 Spaces Per One := 10000

The weapon "30" is the Shard Cannon.
Well, time in time, after start to build these designes, the AI decided to re-create their attack ships... and had not better idea than build an old CR design, that used their Crystalline Armors and Napal Bombs as weapon... Here is:

Name := Attack Ship
Design Type := Attack Ship
Vehicle Type := Ship
Default Strategy := Ram
Size Minimum Tonnage := 401
Size Maximum Tonnage := 500
Num Must Have At Least 1 Ability := 1
Must Have Ability 1 := Shield Generation From Damage
Minimum Speed := 4
Desired Speed := 6
Majority Weapon Family Pick 1 := 0
Majority Weapon Family Pick 2 := 0
Majority Weapon Family Pick 3 := 0
Majority Weapon Family Pick 4 := 0
Majority Weapon Family Pick 5 := 0
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 1 := 13
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 2 := 0
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 3 := 0
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 4 := 0
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 5 := 0
Shields Spaces Per One := 250
Armor Spaces Per One := 0
Majority Comp Spaces Per One := 80
Majority Comp Ability := Shield Generation From Damage
Secondary Comp Spaces Per One := 10000
Secondary Comp Ability := Weapon
Num Misc Abilities := 5
Misc Ability 1 Name := Quantum Reactor
Misc Ability 1 Spaces Per One := 10000
Misc Ability 2 Name := Combat To Hit Defense Plus
Misc Ability 2 Spaces Per One := 10000
Misc Ability 3 Name := Supply Storage
Misc Ability 3 Spaces Per One := 10000
Misc Ability 4 Name := Point-Defense
Misc Ability 4 Spaces Per One := 250
Misc Ability 5 Name := Self-Destruct
Misc Ability 5 Spaces Per One := 10000

Why use this old CR design and at least, don't use the other BC or BB availabe ship designes????

I had an idea: did a paste of the original DN two times, with the idea that maybe the AI could use the second design (that was the same than the first of course!), instead the CR. I was wrong...
Then, remembered that the Pyrochette never had this problem... and remembered that them used 2 kind of DN ships with different weapons.
With this idea, I did a new try: designed a new DN that use the other Crystalline Weapon (can't remember the name... I don't like so much this weapon!!), their weapon family is 31.
This thing fixed the problem!!!!!! The Tessellate started to rotate their ship designes, using the original DN with shard cannon during some time, and time in time, designed the DN with the other weapon as main attack ship.

I had the same problem with the auxiliary ships: Support, Offensive sweepers, troop transport, and even with units. Using the same idea (designes with different weapons for the DN ships), never had again this problem.
IT WORKED TO ME... and think should work to everybody!!!
Hope it will help to create more strong AIs!

Rexxx

March 5th, 2003, 04:15 PM

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Rexxx:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
Gron vs Azorani.
The Gron won at the turn 470.
Well, after checking the Gron savegames I have to say again how helpful for me this contest is.
From time to time (every second or third turn) the Gron think of a LC equipped with CSMs as their best short range attack ship (I guess due to a lousy oversight in the design-file). Not the smartest thing a talisman race can do in mid- and endgame when they can have a DN coming with TKPs and the Talisman.<hr /></blockquote>I saw this problem with most of the modded AI races...

In other of my Posts on this topic, I wrote the work-around that in my view fix this problem (talking about the problem with the Sergetti's ships).
When does exist several ship designes with different sizes, at some point, the AI start to rebuild their ships using small designes (old designes!).
This start to occur (at least in the cases that I knew), after some time the AI reach the DN size. But think in some way is also related to the weapon that currently is using for the DN.
An example, the Tessellate attack ships.
As most the modders, I did different attack ships, depending of the ship size. Here the DN main design.

Name := Attack Ship
Design Type := Attack Ship
Vehicle Type := Ship
Default Strategy := Maximum Weapons Range
Size Minimum Tonnage := 801
Size Maximum Tonnage := 5000
Num Must Have At Least 1 Ability := 2
Must Have Ability 1 := Weapons Always Hit
Must Have Ability 2 := Quantum Reactor
Minimum Speed := 4
Desired Speed := 6
Majority Weapon Family Pick 1 := 22
Majority Weapon Family Pick 2 := 0
Majority Weapon Family Pick 3 := 0
Majority Weapon Family Pick 4 := 0
Majority Weapon Family Pick 5 := 0
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 1 := 30
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 2 := 0
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 3 := 0
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 4 := 0
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 5 := 0
Shields Spaces Per One := 250
Armor Spaces Per One := 10000
Majority Comp Spaces Per One := 200
Majority Comp Ability := Weapon
Secondary Comp Spaces Per One := 200
Secondary Comp Ability := Weapon
Num Misc Abilities := 7
Misc Ability 1 Name := Cloak Level
Misc Ability 1 Spaces Per One := 10000
Misc Ability 2 Name := Combat To Hit Defense Plus
Misc Ability 2 Spaces Per One := 10000
Misc Ability 3 Name := Point-Defense
Misc Ability 3 Spaces Per One := 250
Misc Ability 4 Name := Self-Destruct
Misc Ability 4 Spaces Per One := 10000
Misc Ability 5 Name := Multiplex Tracking
Misc Ability 5 Spaces Per One := 10000
Misc Ability 6 Name := Extra Movement Generation
Misc Ability 6 Spaces Per One := 10000
Misc Ability 7 Name := Point-Defense
Misc Ability 7 Spaces Per One := 10000

The weapon "30" is the Shard Cannon.
Well, time in time, after start to build these designes, the AI decided to re-create their attack ships... and had not better idea than build an old CR design, that used their Crystalline Armors and Napal Bombs as weapon... Here is:

Name := Attack Ship
Design Type := Attack Ship
Vehicle Type := Ship
Default Strategy := Ram
Size Minimum Tonnage := 401
Size Maximum Tonnage := 500
Num Must Have At Least 1 Ability := 1
Must Have Ability 1 := Shield Generation From Damage
Minimum Speed := 4
Desired Speed := 6
Majority Weapon Family Pick 1 := 0
Majority Weapon Family Pick 2 := 0
Majority Weapon Family Pick 3 := 0
Majority Weapon Family Pick 4 := 0
Majority Weapon Family Pick 5 := 0
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 1 := 13
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 2 := 0
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 3 := 0
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 4 := 0
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 5 := 0
Shields Spaces Per One := 250
Armor Spaces Per One := 0
Majority Comp Spaces Per One := 80
Majority Comp Ability := Shield Generation From Damage
Secondary Comp Spaces Per One := 10000
Secondary Comp Ability := Weapon
Num Misc Abilities := 5
Misc Ability 1 Name := Quantum Reactor
Misc Ability 1 Spaces Per One := 10000
Misc Ability 2 Name := Combat To Hit Defense Plus
Misc Ability 2 Spaces Per One := 10000
Misc Ability 3 Name := Supply Storage
Misc Ability 3 Spaces Per One := 10000
Misc Ability 4 Name := Point-Defense
Misc Ability 4 Spaces Per One := 250
Misc Ability 5 Name := Self-Destruct
Misc Ability 5 Spaces Per One := 10000

Why use this old CR design and at least, don't use the other BC or BB availabe ship designes????

I had an idea: did a paste of the original DN two times, with the idea that maybe the AI could use the second design (that was the same than the first of course!), instead the CR. I was wrong...
Then, remembered that the Pyrochette never had this problem... and remembered that them used 2 kind of DN ships with different weapons.
With this idea, I did a new try: designed a new DN that use the other Crystalline Weapon (can't remember the name... I don't like so much this weapon!!), their weapon family is 31.
This thing fixed the problem!!!!!! The Tessellate started to rotate their ship designes, using the original DN with shard cannon during some time, and time in time, designed the DN with the other weapon as main attack ship.

I had the same problem with the auxiliary ships: Support, Offensive sweepers, troop transport, and even with units. Using the same idea (designes with different weapons for the DN ships), never had again this problem.
IT WORKED TO ME... and think should work to everybody!!!
Hope it will help to create more strong AIs!<hr /></blockquote>Very interesting approach.
My guess was the "design switching" came from using different weapons (smaller Gron ships use CSM, larger TKP). I think I can get rid of it by using a CSM as second Majority weapon pick and TKP as first one (for all ships). One more thing to be checked.
So far I never saw it with ships which used everytime the same weapon. Maybe I just never realized this behaviour. Good to know that you find a workaround. A workaround which is harder to achieve for "normal" races than for "special" races whose weapon research led to several different weapons simultaneously. Anyway, the main thing is that there is a workaround at all and that the Gron are a psychic race. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Rexxx

March 6th, 2003, 02:01 AM

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
Gron vs Azorani.
The Gron won at the turn 470.
Well, after checking the Gron savegames I have to say again how helpful for me this contest is.
From time to time (every second or third turn) the Gron think of a LC equipped with CSMs as their best short range attack ship (I guess due to a lousy oversight in the design-file). Not the smartest thing a talisman race can do in mid- and endgame when they can have a DN coming with TKPs and the Talisman.

Master Belisarius

March 6th, 2003, 02:01 AM

Teslik vs XiChung.
The Testlik won at the turn 450.
Think the XiChung need a major review to make them competitive (5 games in the tournaments 1 & 2 and 5 defeats).

Here the link: Teslik_vs_XiChung_A8.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1046908242.zip)

Master Belisarius

March 7th, 2003, 12:22 AM

Fazrah vs Narn.

Both are great AIs, and was an interesting game for the first place... but something long: more than 9 hours playing.
The Narn won by points after the turn 500.

Then, the Narn won their group and the Fazrah got the second place.

The link: Fazrah_vs_Narn_A1.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1046988742.zip)

Master Belisarius

March 7th, 2003, 01:39 AM

Cylon vs Praetorian.

The Preatorian won after the turn 121.
Was a deserved victory and they got the Last place to the next round.

Here the link: Cylon_vs_Praetorian_A1.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1046993824.zip)

The standings on this group were:
Narn 3 points
Fazrah 2 points
Praetorian 1 point
Cylon 0 point

[ March 06, 2003, 23:43: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

Master Belisarius

March 7th, 2003, 04:12 AM

Piundon vs Pyrochette.

The Pyrochette won at the turn 188, and finished with 3 points in the first place.

Link: Piundon_vs_Pyrochette_A2.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1047003110.zip)

Now are fighting the Romulans and the Orks... and if the Romulans win, will need to play extra games to determine 2nd and 3rd place on this group.

Dralasite

March 7th, 2003, 11:26 PM

MB,

Your post about 9 hour games made me curious. What sort of system do you run the games on, if you don't mind me asking.

Master Belisarius

March 7th, 2003, 11:59 PM

Originally posted by Dralasite:
MB,

Your post about 9 hour games made me curious. What sort of system do you run the games on, if you don't mind me asking.I'm using a progam (SE4 Batch) that I did some months ago, that allow you to run test games (in simultaneous mode) without click "end turn".

Think still does exist into the download forum.

Edit: I found the link to the SE4Batch program.

SE4 BATCH (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1016581587.ZIP)

After download and istall it, you should unzip the upgrade into the folder were you installed the program.

UPDATE VERSION 1.1 (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1017336891.ZIP)

Also, must say that only can assure that works in Win95/Win98... sorry (and by the way, I have lost the source code!)

[ March 07, 2003, 22:19: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

Master Belisarius

March 8th, 2003, 12:12 AM

Romulan vs Orks.

The Orks won at the turn 280.
Sadly the Romulan had the "Colony bug" problem: during most part the game doesn't colonized their Ice planets.

I did a new game between them (as test), but exchanging the starting places, and the Orks won again... then, my conscience is clean now.

Here the link: Romulan_vs_Orks_A2.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1047075081.zip)

Then, the standings in the group A2 were:

Pyrochette 3 points
Orks 2 points
Piundon 1 point
Romulan 0 point.

Then, the Pyrochette, Orks and Piundon are in the second round.

Dralasite

March 8th, 2003, 12:24 AM

Sorry, I meant what cpu speed & memory you were using, that type on thing. But thanks for the links to the seiv batch as well!

Master Belisarius

March 8th, 2003, 12:36 AM

Originally posted by Dralasite:
Sorry, I meant what cpu speed & memory you were using, that type on thing. But thanks for the links to the seiv batch as well!http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Sorry http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Not a high tech system: Pentium III 766Mhz, 256MB RAM and a HD with 20GB.

oleg

March 8th, 2003, 01:07 AM

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
Also, must say that only can assure that works in Win95/Win98... sorry (and by the way, I have lost the source code!)[/QB]Next time, post all source codes in download forum ! Just to be sure http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Master Belisarius

March 8th, 2003, 01:16 AM

Originally posted by oleg:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
Also, must say that only can assure that works in Win95/Win98... sorry (and by the way, I have lost the source code!)Next time, post all source codes in download forum ! Just to be sure http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif [/QB]<hr /></blockquote>http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif Think you're right... My HD crashed some months ago and have lost many things... oh well, my fault

Gandalph

March 8th, 2003, 01:16 AM

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
Teslik vs XiChung.
The Testlik won at the turn 450.
Think the XiChung need a major review to make them competitive (5 games in the tournaments 1 & 2 and 5 defeats).

Here the link: Teslik_vs_XiChung_A8.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1046908242.zip)Yeah, the Tesli'k won one!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Master Belisarius

March 8th, 2003, 01:20 AM

EEE vs Ekhazan.

The EEE had not problems to defeat the Ekhazan in less than 180 turns. Then, they got the first place in the group 3

Here the link: EEE_vs_Ekhazan_A3.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1047079000.zip)

Now I'm starting the game between the Colonials and the Klingon, for the 2nd place.

Master Belisarius

March 8th, 2003, 01:23 AM

Originally posted by Gandalph:
Yeah, the Tesli'k won one!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif [/QB]http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
I really think they're the more strong of your races, and did merits to be in the second round.

Master Belisarius

March 8th, 2003, 02:17 AM

Colonials vs Klingon.

The Klingon won at the turn 147. They expanded fast and very well, and then, got the 2nd place.

Here the link:
Colonials_vs_Klingon_A3.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1047082648.zip)

Standings in the group A3.

EEE 3 points
Klingon 2 points
Colonials 1 point
Ekhazan 0 point

Gandalph

March 8th, 2003, 03:40 AM

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Gandalph:
Yeah, the Tesli'k won one!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
I really think they're the more strong of your races, and did merits to be in the second round.[/QB]<hr /></blockquote>However, obviously, all 3 need improvements.

Master Belisarius

March 8th, 2003, 04:03 AM

Originally posted by Gandalph:
However, obviously, all 3 need improvements.Agree. But if you keep working on your AIs, I can bet they will play better and better.

Master Belisarius

March 8th, 2003, 04:07 AM

Khrel vs UFlora.

Really expected a balanced game but I was wrong.
The United Flora won at the turn 158 and got the first place.

Interesting, but although the Khrel doesn't suffered the "colony bug", anyway were unable to stop the UF fleets.

Here the link: Khrel_vs_UFlora_A4.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1047088739.zip)

Now I'm starting a game for the 3rd place: Sergetti vs Sallega

Master Belisarius

March 8th, 2003, 05:03 PM

Originally posted by Rexxx:
Yeah, the UF expanded much faster and always had the initiative. For a "bonus game" the expansion rate of the Khrel is definitely too low and the UF are far too strong that this deficiency can be compensated.
I think the UF will perform much better in this contest than in the Last one. No lack of resources anymore so that they can show their true strength.Agree 100% with you...

Master Belisarius

March 8th, 2003, 05:14 PM

Sergetti vs Sallega.

The Sallega won at the turn 500.
Weird game.
The Sallega killed all the Sergetti's systems very fast...
The Last Sergetti's system, "Bardron", was protected by mines.
Well, after it, the Sallega stopped to build anything... and then, nothing happened until the turn 500.
After see games like this, I'm more and more in favor to the idea that the AI should move their ships into the knew minefields...

Here the link: Sergetti_vs_Sallega_A4.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1047136397.zip)

The standings in the group A4 were:

United Flora 3
Khrel 2
Sallega 1
Sergetti 0

Master Belisarius

March 8th, 2003, 07:42 PM

Cue Cappa vs EA.

The Cue Cappa achieved a deserved victory against the EA.
During all the game they had the initiative and won without problems, then, they finished first in the group and the EA second.

Here the link: CueCappa_vs_EA_A5.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1047144801.zip)

Rexxx

March 9th, 2003, 02:07 AM

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
Khrel vs UFlora.
Really expected a balanced game but I was wrong.
So did I. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
Interesting, but although the Khrel doesn't suffered the "colony bug", anyway were unable to stop the UF fleets.
Yeah, the UF expanded much faster and always had the initiative. For a "bonus game" the expansion rate of the Khrel is definitely too low and the UF are far too strong that this deficiency can be compensated.
I think the UF will perform much better in this contest than in the Last one. No lack of resources anymore so that they can show their true strength.

Master Belisarius

March 9th, 2003, 04:03 PM

Drakol vs Corrian.

The Corrian had everything to win, but finally lost by points at the turn 500.
The Drakol got the first place at the turn 492!

The main problem with the Corrian was that they had not mine-sweepers to finish the Drakol.
Also, the Corrian had so late in their research queue, the tech to colonize Ice planets.

Here the link: Drakol_vs_Corrian_A5.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1047218579.zip)

Then, the standings in the group A5 were:

Cue Cappa 3
Earth Alliance 2
Drakol 1
Corrian 0

Master Belisarius

March 9th, 2003, 04:29 PM

Azorani vs Aquilaeian.
The Aquilaeian had not problems to kill the Azorani before the turn 130.

Link: Azorani_vs_Aquilaeian_A6.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1047220052.zip)

Master Belisarius

March 9th, 2003, 05:08 PM

Gron vs Toltayan.

First both races signes a Military Alliance, but at some point the war started...

The Toltayan expanded more fast, and removed the Gron colonies in several systems, but they
had not available minesweepers... then, were unable to finish the Gron.
In the other hand, the Gron had not colonized the Rock/Ice planets.... Don't think that's
exactly the 'Colony bug'. Simply they reached the max number of colony ship (5), and all
of them were Gas for the time when they got Rock/Ice.
After the Gron were able to create some planets, the problem with the Colony Ship finished... then the Toltayan had problems.
The Gron won at the turn 330.

Link: Gron_vs_Toltayan_A6.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1047221494.zip)

Rexxx

March 9th, 2003, 10:11 PM

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
Gron vs Toltayan.

In the other hand, the Gron had not colonized the Rock/Ice planets.... Don't think that's
exactly the 'Colony bug'. Simply they reached the max number of colony ship (5), and all
of them were Gas for the time when they got Rock/Ice.
After the Gron were able to create some planets, the problem with the Colony Ship finished... then the Toltayan had problems.
The Gron won at the turn 330.
I think you're right, that wasn't the colony bug. That was a colonizer dead end.
During the weekend I did some testing. My statement in a previous post that calling for names wouldn't help avoiding such a dead end was proven wrong.
Based on my (connected games) and Oleg's tests (not connected games) I would say that calling for names will protect the AIs from getting stuck in those dead ends.
However, it does not kill the colony bug. In my simultaneous test games (using the contest map and its settings) this damned bug quite regularly occurs.
Calling for names will make the construction file somewhat bulkier but for me avoiding those dead ends is worth it.

Master Belisarius

March 9th, 2003, 10:22 PM

Originally posted by Rexxx:
Calling for names will make the construction file somewhat bulkier but for me avoiding those dead ends is worth it.Agree with you 100%.

Anyway, seeing more and more games played by the AI, make me feel that the AI should allow to send their ships into the knew minefields (look the Toltayan!). Then, the "excedent" of colony ships will be destroyed soon! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

[ March 09, 2003, 20:43: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

Master Belisarius

March 9th, 2003, 10:42 PM

Tessellate vs Vikings.

The Vikings defeated the Tessellate at the turn 370 and got a deserved victory and the fisrt place in their group.

Here the link: Tessellate_vs_Vikings_A7.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1047242524.zip)

Master Belisarius

March 9th, 2003, 11:51 PM

Shadows vs Namovans.

The Namovans defeated the Shadows before the turn 217, and reached the 3rd place.

Link: Shadows_vs_Namovans_A7.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1047246578.zip)

The standings in this group were:

Vikings 3 Points
Tessellate 2 Points
Namovans 1 Point
Shadows 0 Point

PsychoTechFreak

March 10th, 2003, 12:29 AM

Master Belisarius, please check PM.

Thanks,
PTF

Master Belisarius

March 10th, 2003, 04:28 AM

Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:
Master Belisarius, please check PM.

Thanks,
PTFAnswered!

Master Belisarius

March 10th, 2003, 04:37 AM

XiChung vs Toron.

A fast game. The Toron killed the XiChung before the turn 170.

Link: XiChung_vs_Toron_A8.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1047263108.zip)

Tesli'k vs Rage.
The Rage defeated the Tesli'k at the turn 210.

Link: Teslik_vs_Rage_A8.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1047263727.zip)

Then the standing in the group A8 were:

Rage 3 points
Toron 2 points
Tesli'k 1 point
Shadows 0 point

Master Belisarius

March 10th, 2003, 04:40 AM

Ok, the first round was finished... and here are the Groups for the Second Round.
The Groups were done acording the fixtured posted before: Death Match 2 Fixture.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1045950684.zip)

Group B1
========
Narn Regime
Space Vikings
Sallega
Teslik

Group B2
========
Pyrochette
Rage
Drakol
Namovans

Group B3
========
EEE
Fazrah
Earth Alliance
Azorani

Group B4
========
United Flora
Orks
Aquilaeian
Praetorian

Group B5
========
Cue Cappa
Klingon
Tessellate
Piundon

Group B6
========
Gron
Khrel
Toron
Colonial

Now are fighting the Narn vs Vikings!

Gandalph

March 10th, 2003, 06:01 AM

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
Drakol vs Corrian.

The Corrian had everything to win, but finally lost by points at the turn 500.
The Drakol got the first place at the turn 492!

The main problem with the Corrian was that they had not mine-sweepers to finish the Drakol.
Also, the Corrian had so late in their research queue, the tech to colonize Ice planets.

Here the link: Drakol_vs_Corrian_A5.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1047218579.zip)

Then, the standings in the group A5 were:

Cue Cappa 3
Earth Alliance 2
Drakol 1
Corrian 0In all fairness to my Corrian, this was a close battle and may have been won by either side, in fact, on turn 501 the Corrian were in first place.

Unknown_Enemy

March 10th, 2003, 11:29 AM

Just wanting to say thanks to Master Belisarius and all the AI modders for such a good job..

minipol

March 10th, 2003, 01:43 PM

i'm not an active modder myself but i must say this is a very interesting thread.
hopefully SEV will include some sort of mechanism to allow to script the AI.

Master Belisarius

March 10th, 2003, 05:21 PM

Gandaph: agree with you.
And think that with 2 little updates the Corrian would have defeated the Drakol without problems:
A) Including more minesweepers or moving the line to build them more up in the construcion_vehicles.txt
B) Into the research.txt move the ICE colonization up.

Unknown Enemy and Minipol: thanks for the support guys! Really apreciate that.

Slick

March 10th, 2003, 05:39 PM

I agree, great thread, great idea and great work. This makes the whole game better because we get better AI's.

Here's an idea for the next AI tournament: All entries are submitted with $1 toward the grand prize which is the winner getting SE V when it is released. There should be enough entries to cover the cost of the game and shipping.

Slick.

Foiden

March 10th, 2003, 05:57 PM

I also agree. I only still have the demo and am waiting for my full copy order to be sent, but I've been reading up in this thread for well over a week now. The information seems to serve a lot more than simply battling AIs together, but it shares quite a bit of information about the reasons for victory and defeat (particularly concerning military and expansion methods). Especially for newcomers (like myself) who don't have the experience to know all of these strategies already. I also give props to the A.I. designers who went through quite a bit of work to make even reading about the conflicts seem exciting, not to mention the organizer for summing up the general strategies these A.I.s have used and supplying the files. Hopefully I'll know what to do to look at the files once I have my hands on the full Version.

On another note:

Being a Babylon 5 fan, it's kind of ironic, in a neat way, that the Narn Regime is doing as well as they have. Being that I always remembered them as a race typically beaten down and dominated by others. It's like watching some spinoff called Narn's revenge. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Master Belisarius

March 11th, 2003, 12:38 AM

Slick: thanks for your kind words.
About to create a prize for the next AI tournament, I'm not so sure.
The goal was try to improve the current AIs and determine at the same time in a "fair" way(impossible to keep fair all the conditions), which AIs are the best.
But extend it with a prize... I don't know. Don't thing everybody would like it.
Even to myself, would be problematic to run the contest, because I have 3 AIs involved...
Anyway, thanks for the suggestion. Who knows?

Foiden: hey, I'm glad that as "newbie" you can use info from here!
And yes, agree with you about the Nar! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Interesting, but the original Narn AI was a lot more weak... and I believed that still was the same, until the previous contest! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ March 10, 2003, 22:51: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

Master Belisarius

March 11th, 2003, 12:50 AM

Narn vs Vikings.

The Vikings won before the turn 200.
Think like the United Flora, the Vikings had resource problems in the first contest... but with "small bonus" they're a lot more strong.
They won, basically because they expanded very fast, and then, the Narn had not time to reach all of their potential.

Link: Narn_vs_Vikings_B1.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1047334613.zip)

Sallega vs Tesli'k.
The Sallega performed something better than the Tesli'k, and they won by points after the turn 500. But mostly was a balanced game.

Link: Sallega_vs_Teslik_B1.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1047335419.zip)

Dralasite

March 11th, 2003, 02:34 AM

In the first AI death match, there was a zip file with all the AIs used in it (besides one someone wanted removed). Would it be possible to provide a similar file for this contest?

Thanks!

Master Belisarius

March 11th, 2003, 03:50 AM

Originally posted by Dralasite:
In the first AI death match, there was a zip file with all the AIs used in it (besides one someone wanted removed). Would it be possible to provide a similar file for this contest?

Thanks!Sure, here are: AI Scripts.ZIP (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1047347357.ZIP)

But mostly are the original TDM files.

mlmbd

March 11th, 2003, 03:32 PM

Master Belisarius, about the Sallega vs Tesli'k. Did this 'draw' supprise you, any?

mlmbd http://www.shrapnelgames.com//ubb/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Master Belisarius

March 11th, 2003, 04:01 PM

Originally posted by mlmbd:
Master Belisarius, about the Sallega vs Tesli'k. Did this 'draw' supprise you, any?

mlmbd http://www.shrapnelgames.com//ubb/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Honestly, was not a surprise.

Both races were lack of mine-sweepers in previous games, and at the same time, both had the setting "Ships don't move through minefields := True", then... have expected a long "trench" war.

Dralasite

March 11th, 2003, 07:49 PM

Sure, here are: AI Scripts.ZIP

But mostly are the original TDM files.
Thanks! Its still nice to have them all in one place.

Master Belisarius

March 12th, 2003, 12:49 AM

Pyrochette vs Rage.
The game was running from the 7:12 PM to 5:53 AM...
The Pyrochette won by points at the turn 500.
The Rage had always the initiative, destroyed 4 systems using sun destroyers and black hole creators... but think what saved the Pyrochette was their resistance to the riots and their bonus in resource extraction (with less systems, the Pryochette had more points).

Here the link: Pyrochette_vs_Rage_B2.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1047422895.zip)

Master Belisarius

March 12th, 2003, 03:28 AM

Drakol vs Namonvans.

The Drakol was unable to stop the Namovans... All the time the Namovans had the initiative and won the game before the turn 220.

Link: Drakol_vs_Namovans_B2.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1047432375.zip)

Rexxx

March 12th, 2003, 11:21 AM

Any news from MM about the colony bug?

Master Belisarius

March 13th, 2003, 12:17 AM

Originally posted by Rexxx:
Any news from MM about the colony bug?Not yet...

Master Belisarius

March 13th, 2003, 01:11 AM

EEE vs Fazrah.

The Fazrah defeated the EEE at the turn 250.
A game between two great AIs, but the Fazrah expanded fast and the EEE had problems to stop their waves.

Here the link: EEE_vs_Fazrah_B3.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1047510258.zip)

Master Belisarius

March 13th, 2003, 04:58 AM

EA vs Azorani.

The EA won at the turn 380.
They had some problems in the first part of the game, losing Aargau.
But their victories in the Abrion system, started to change the game, and then, finished crushing the Azorani.

Here the link: EA_vs_Azorani_B3.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1047524220.zip)

Master Belisarius

March 14th, 2003, 12:44 AM

United Flora vs Orks.
======================

The UF was unstoppable for the Orks. They had a very fast expansion and the Orks fleets were slaughtered by the ships with the Talisman.
The UF won at the turn 178.

Here the link: UFlora_vs_Orks_B4.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1047594018.zip)

Aquilaeian vs Praetorian.
==========================
The Aquilaeian had not problems to defeat the Praetorian at the turn 220.
Is pretty obvious, that peaceful races like the Praetorian, had a disadvantage playing this tournament (where only 2 races are involved in every game).

Here the link: Aquilaeian_vs_Praetorian_B4.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1047594614.zip)

CueCappa vs Klingon
====================

The CueCappa are a very strong race (hey Primitve, thanks for suggest them!), and defeated the Klingons at the turn 210.
Here the link: CueCappa_vs_Klingon_B5.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1047595107.zip)

Master Belisarius

March 14th, 2003, 01:17 AM

Tessellate vs Piundon.

A very fast game.
The Tessellate won before the turn 138. They doesn't needed to use the Talisman to defeat the Piundon: won thanks their fast expansion.

The link: Tessellate_vs_Piundon_B5.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1047597327.zip)

primitive

March 14th, 2003, 01:42 AM

Just popping in to say you are doing a great job.

I am sure lots of people follow this event, even if few post comments. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

mlmbd

March 14th, 2003, 01:53 AM

Master Belisarius, seems your AI for the Tessellate's is doing quite well. Congratulations!

mlmbd http://www.shrapnelgames.com//ubb/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Master Belisarius

March 14th, 2003, 02:08 AM

Originally posted by mlmbd:
Master Belisarius, seems your AI for the Tessellate's is doing quite well. Congratulations!
mlmbd http://www.shrapnelgames.com//ubb/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Thanks.
Trying to be fair, think they're good, but the Piundon looks something slow to develop their empire.
The Tessellate's AI Version that I'm using for the contest is the originaly published, but I was doing some improvements here and there after see how are they performing.

Originally posted by primitive:
Just popping in to say you are doing a great job.
I am sure lots of people follow this event, even if few post comments. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Thanks for the support Primitive!
Are a lot of games and the contest will continue for a long time, then I understand that not everybody would like to post very often...

Master Belisarius

March 15th, 2003, 12:21 AM

Gron vs Khrel.

Two strong AIs done by the same author (Rexxx).
The Khrel won by point at the turn 500.
The Khrel has the initiative during all the game, and won a deserved game (loong game!).
BTW: the Khrel's planet destroyer was very effective on this game...

The link: Gron_vs_Khrel_B6.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1047680252.zip)

Master Belisarius

March 15th, 2003, 01:23 AM

Toron vs Colonials.

The Toron had not problems to defeat fast the Colonials... they won at the turn 180.
Honestly, think will be VERY difficult for the Colonials reach the next round.

The link: Toron_vs_Colonials_B6.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1047684140.zip)

Master Belisarius

March 15th, 2003, 02:38 AM

Sallega vs Toron.

The Toron won at the turn 240. The Sallega had no way to stop the Toron fleets...

Here the link: Sallega_vs_Toron_B1.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1047688654.zip)

Master Belisarius

March 15th, 2003, 05:01 AM

Vikings vs Teslik.
The Vikings won before the turn 280.
The Vikings always had the initiative, but anyway the Teslik hold them until the turn 130-140.
But at the turn 150-160, the Vikings forces started to take control over the external Teslik's systems, and after it their fall was only matter of time.

Here the link: Vikings_vs_Teslik_B1.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1047697271.zip)

Unknown_Enemy

March 15th, 2003, 09:17 AM

By the way the bad new is that the SE4Batch program does not work neither on windows xp or windows 2000. Compatibility mode in windows xp can't help too.

That's a pity as I got some AI to test.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Nodachi

March 15th, 2003, 03:50 PM

By the way the bad new is that the SE4Batch program does not work neither on windows xp or windows 2000. Compatibility mode in windows xp can't help too.
Works fine for me. Make sure you've got SEIV in the default location and ignore the errors.

Master Belisarius

March 15th, 2003, 04:20 PM

Originally posted by Nodachi:
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> By the way the bad new is that the SE4Batch program does not work neither on windows xp or windows 2000. Compatibility mode in windows xp can't help too.
Works fine for me. Make sure you've got SEIV in the default location and ignore the errors.<hr /></blockquote>Have you XP or Win2000?
Because I knwo the program works ok with win95/98.

Master Belisarius

March 15th, 2003, 05:45 PM

Rage vs Namovans.

A duel between 2 Alpha Kodiak's AIs.
Was a balanced game, during most the time. Maybe the Rage performed something better.
But then, the Namovans used sun destroyers and the history changed... and finished winning at the turn 319.

Here the link: Rage_vs_Namovans_B2.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1047742768.zip)

[ March 16, 2003, 15:01: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

Master Belisarius

March 16th, 2003, 02:34 AM

Originally posted by Unknown_Enemy:
By the way the bad new is that the SE4Batch program does not work neither on windows xp or windows 2000. Compatibility mode in windows xp can't help too.

That's a pity as I got some AI to test.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif Sadly, you're right...

Master Belisarius

March 16th, 2003, 02:46 AM

Drakol vs Pyrochette.

The Pyrochette won at the turn 200.
At the turn 13 the Pyrochette started to invade the Darlok's systems, and the Drakol were unable to stop them.

Link:
Drakol_vs_Pyrochette_B2.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1047732086.zip)

Master Belisarius

March 16th, 2003, 05:45 AM

Earth Alliance vs EEE.

Both friendly races had a Military alliance... until the turns between 190-200, when the war started.
After it, was a long and balanced game, when nobody has the strength to defeat the other.
At the turn 500, the EEE won with a not high margin.

Here the link: EA_vs_EEE_B3.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1047785961.zip)

Master Belisarius

March 16th, 2003, 05:01 PM

Two fast games.

Fazrah vs Azorani.
The Fazrah won at the turn 193.

Link: Fazrah_vs_Azorani_B3.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1047825453.zip)

Aquilaeian vs United Flora.

The United Flora won at the turn 200.
Have expected a more balanced game, but with "low bonus" the United Flora looks unstoppable!

Here the link: Aquilaeian_vs_UFlora_B4.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1047826175.zip)

Master Belisarius

March 16th, 2003, 09:23 PM

Orks vs Praetorian.

An interesting game.
Again, the Praetorian expanded very fast in the early game and pushed the Orks to the ropes... and again the Praetorians lost the game!
Think they need some ligth fixes in the contruction_vehicles.txt or change the setting to allow them to send the ships through knew minefields.
The Orks won at the turn 320.

Here the link: Orks_vs_Praetorian_B4.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1047842345.zip)

Master Belisarius

March 17th, 2003, 03:54 PM

Tessellate vs CueCappa.

A long game. The Tessellate defeated the CueCappa before the turn 380.
During the first part of the game, the CueCappa performed better than the Tessellate and was at the offensive. Also they did several holes into the Tessellate's territory.
But when the Tessellate got the DN with Quantum Reactors, the game changed to their side.

Here the link: Tessellate_vs_CueCappa_B5.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1047909011.zip)

Rexxx

March 17th, 2003, 04:07 PM

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
EEE vs Fazrah.

The Fazrah defeated the EEE at the turn 250.
A game between two great AIs, but the Fazrah expanded fast and the EEE had problems to stop their waves.
A damned colonizer dead end again for more than 30 turns. It was solved by the Fazrah destroying the first EEE gas colonies, a solution which came a little bit late and witht a price much too high. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
However, to give credits where credits are due, even without this dead end the EEE never would have won. The much higher expansion rate of the Fazrah coming with a decent and well-balanced AI is just too much.

Hi Blade,
Once I wrote that intel cannot decide a game. I still believe that this is true for a standard game but in this head-to-head matches the Fazrah's intel efforts are much more than only annoying. I didn't check the exact number of empty EEE colonies throughout the game (emptied by food contamination), but there are far too many of them. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
Earth Alliance vs EEE.

Both friendly races had a Military alliance... until the turns between 190-200, when the war started.
After it, was a long and balanced game, when nobody has the strength to defeat the other.
At the turn 500, the EEE won with a not high margin.
Starting from the bottom of the map means no dead ends for the EEE. In this game the EA suffered from it, got stuck for 100 (!) turns without having free colonizer slots for gas giants.
Quite a disadvantage when the war started and probably the reason for it. Guess it was a MEE war, scores were 3.0M to 1.3M at turn 190. Not much left of this advantage at the end of the game...

Master Belisarius

March 17th, 2003, 06:50 PM

Originally posted by Rexxx:
]Starting from the bottom of the map means no dead ends for the EEE. In this game the EA suffered from it, got stuck for 100 (!) turns without having free colonizer slots for gas giants.
Quite a disadvantage when the war started and probably the reason for it. Guess it was a MEE war, scores were 3.0M to 1.3M at turn 190. Not much left of this advantage at the end of the game...Yes, it's a fact that the starting place (top or bottom on this map), really makes a difference.
Really I'm not sure what's the reason.
It mean that the results of this contest, can't be considered 100% fair, because when 2 AIs are both strong, the starting place would decide the game.
For the next rounds, the AIs will play at least 2 times against their opponents changing sides in the starting places. Think it would help to keep the fairness, but still I dislike this fact...

Mephisto

March 17th, 2003, 07:06 PM

The AI will search in a clockwise manner for planets to colonize IIRC. Maybe there is some bug with this but I have no clue what it could be.

Master Belisarius

March 17th, 2003, 09:54 PM

Toron vs Gron.

The Gron defeated the Toron at the turn 330.
The Toron's expansion was hurted by their starting place... but anyway at the turn 200 they had a decent game to play.
But the Gron's ships with Talisman decided the battle.

Here the link: Toron_vs_Gron_B6.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1047930096.zip)

Master Belisarius

March 18th, 2003, 02:32 AM

Khrel vs Colonials.

After some turns, was pretty obvious that the Khrel had problems to colonize all of their available planets... but the Colonials were unable to take advantage of this.
Then, the Khrel killed the Colonials slowly, planet after planet...
The Khrel won at the turn 410.

Here the link: Khrel_vs_Colonials_B6.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1047947104.zip)

Master Belisarius

March 18th, 2003, 03:25 PM

Teslik vs Narn Regime.

The Narn Regime won at the turn 270.
The Teslik had problems to colonize all the available planets, but still they has fought well, but the Narn had not problems to colonize...

Here the link: Teslik_vs_Narn.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1047993059.zip)

Vikings vs Sallega.

The Vikings won at the turn 290.
They had not problems to defeat the Sallega.

Here the link: Vikings_vs_Sallega_B1.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1047993714.zip)

Then the standings in the group B1 are:

Space Vikings 3
Narn Regime 2
Sallega 1
Teslik 0

Then, the Space Vikings, Narn Regime and Sallega will play in the next round.

Rexxx

March 18th, 2003, 05:56 PM

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:

Then, the Khrel killed the Colonials slowly, planet after planet...
That is the perfect description how I would like to have the Khrel. A kind of creeping doom, slowly but unstoppable. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
Unfortunately it does not work this way and never will against the better AIs. The Khrel learned about the punishment for having a too low expansion rate in their game against the UF, annihilation.

Master Belisarius

March 18th, 2003, 07:01 PM

Originally posted by Rexxx:
That is the perfect description how I would like to have the Khrel. A kind of creeping doom, slowly but unstoppable. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
Unfortunately it does not work this way and never will against the better AIs. The Khrel learned about the punishment for having a too low expansion rate in their game against the UF, annihilation.http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I'm not sure if this is a good idea:
Entry 3 Type := Colonizer
Entry 3 Planet Per Item := 300
Entry 3 Must Have At Least := 5

In my view 300 is a so high number. It mean that during a long time, the Khrel will have only 5 colony ships.
It would be ok for some game settings, but in the average game, IMHO it will not help the Khrel: think they will colonize slowly.

Rexxx

March 18th, 2003, 08:43 PM

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
IMHO it will not help the Khrel: think they will colonize slowly.Yeah, that's exactly what I meant. Definitely too slowly. It was a nicely "creeping doom" against the Colonials but against better AIs it means "being doomed". The next rounds will show that clearly.
That's why I like your contests so much. They open my eyes for further improvements or show me the flaws (all of my AIs have this colonizer entry).
Some more work to do but work I'm looking forward to.

Master Belisarius

March 19th, 2003, 12:31 AM

Originally posted by Rexxx:
They open my eyes for further improvements or show me the flaws (all of my AIs have this colonizer entry).
Some more work to do but work I'm looking forward to.http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Some of the resons that moved me to do this contest, were what you wrote above!

[ March 18, 2003, 23:04: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

Master Belisarius

March 19th, 2003, 12:59 AM

Namovans vs Pyrochette.

A game between 2 Temporal races and for the first place.
The Pyrochette got a deserverd victory before the turn 289.
Here the link: Namovans_vs_Pyrochette_B2.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1048027824.zip)

Rage vs Drakol.

Honestly, I expected to see the Rage win. But because they started in the upper side, expected that the Drakol would have the opportunity to offer a decent challenge.
I was right only in part: the Rage won but the Drakol doesn't existed for them. The Rage crushed the Drakol before the turn 150 (I can bet that it happened at the turn 141 or 142).

Here the link:Rage_vs_Drakol_B2.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1048028314.zip)

Then, the standings for the group B2 are:

Pyrochette 3 points
Namovans 2 points
Rage 1 point
Drakol 0 point

Master Belisarius

March 19th, 2003, 06:17 AM

Azorani vs EEE

The EEE had not problems to defeat the Azorani, before the turn 220. Thanks God, the Azorani decided to surrender before lose all of their planets.

Here the link: Azorani_vs_EEE_B3.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1048046915.zip)

Fazrah vs Earth Alliance

The Fazrah played without problems starting in the Up side, and always had the initiative against the EA. Early on the game, was pretty obvious who will reach the victory...
The Fazrah won at the turn 240

Here the link: Fazrah_vs_EA_B3.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1048047360.zip)

The standings in the Group B3 are:

Fazrah 3 points.
EEE 2 points.
Earth Alliance 1 point.
Praetorians 0 point.

Then, the Fazrah, EEE and EA go to the next round...

[ March 19, 2003, 14:10: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

Rexxx

March 19th, 2003, 01:36 PM

Hi MB
Did some testing with the Gron regarding the design switching we discussed some days ago. It has confirmed my guess that the design switching does not happen, when all of their kamikaze attack ships come with:
....
Majority Weapon Family Pick 1 := 34
Majority Weapon Family Pick 2 := 2
...
However, this approach means that immediately after the TKP I is discovered the AI will use it, rendering the designs weaker in comparison to the CSM V they also could have.
So, your idea of having two DN designs with different weaponry is much better. No design switching and the smaller ships still can use the best available weapon (or the weapon I would like them to use). Using your approach makes it possible that the first TKP-ships which appear are coming with a TKP V and the talisman. Great, just great.

Can you or anyone else confirm that this design switching for ships only occurs several turns after the DN class is discovered? There is no switching before, e.g. between a battleship and a cruiser?
I just want to be sure because regarding units it seems that the design switching happens much earlier and much more frequently. When I equip a small WP with CSMs and my medium WPs with TKPs the AI begins immediately and quite often (every second or third turn) switching back to the small WP, it does not wait until large WPs are researched.

Master Belisarius

March 19th, 2003, 03:44 PM

Originally posted by Rexxx:

It has confirmed my guess that the design switching does not happen, when all of their kamikaze attack ships come with:
....
Majority Weapon Family Pick 1 := 34
Majority Weapon Family Pick 2 := 2
Agree with you. The problem with the AI using smallest sizes, only occur when you're using different weapon and sizes in your designes.

Originally posted by Rexxx:

Can you or anyone else confirm that this design switching for ships only occurs several turns after the DN class is discovered? There is no switching before, e.g. between a battleship and a cruiser?
I just want to be sure because regarding units it seems that the design switching happens much earlier and much more frequently. When I equip a small WP with CSMs and my medium WPs with TKPs the AI begins immediately and quite often (every second or third turn) switching back to the small WP, it does not wait until large WPs are researched.I'm not sure about what's the trigger...

My personal guess is that related with the Weapons.
My theory is that if you reach the max develop for a weapon, and also does exist other design with a different weapon, then, the AI will start to rotate the designes.

[ March 19, 2003, 14:13: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

Master Belisarius

March 19th, 2003, 04:09 PM

Praetorian vs United Flora.

The UF had not problems to defeat the Praetorians, at the turn 153

Here the link: Praetorian_vs_UFlora_B4.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1048082130.zip)

Orks vs Aquilaeian

The Aquilaeian defeated the Orks before the turn 193.

Here the link: Orks_vs_Aquilaeian_B4.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1048082669.zip)

Then the standings in the group B4 are:

United Flora 3
Aquilaeian 2
Orks 1
Praetorian 0

Master Belisarius

March 19th, 2003, 06:49 PM

Piundon vs Cue Cappa.

A very fast game... The Cue Cappa slaughtered the Piundon before the turn 150.

Here the link: Piundon_vs_CueCappa_B5.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1048092361.zip)

Klingon vs Tessellate.

The Tessellate defeated the Klingons before the turn 250. During all the game they had the initiative, and the Klingon's with their problems to colonize (due the colony bug http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif ) were unable to change their fate.

Here the link: Klingon_vs_Tessellate_B6.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1048093129.zip)

The standings in the Group B5 are:

Tessellate 3
Cue Cappa 2
Piundon 1
Klingon 0

[ March 19, 2003, 16:59: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

Rexxx

March 19th, 2003, 10:38 PM

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
I'm not sure about what's the trigger...

My personal guess is that related with the Weapons.
My theory is that if you reach the max develop for a weapon, and also does exist other design with a different weapon, then, the AI will start to rotate the designes.I did some more tests, this time with fighters. The switching occurs immediately after medium fighters were researched (exactly what happened using WPs). Still not sure about the trigger...
Anyway, thanks a lot for sharing your idea about the 2nd DN design, I never would have thought of that one. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Master Belisarius

March 19th, 2003, 10:52 PM

Originally posted by Rexxx:
I did some more tests, this time with fighters. The switching occurs immediately after medium fighters were researched (exactly what happened using WPs). Still not sure about the trigger...
A few questions: the small and medium fighters had the same weapon (I assume "no").
What weapons and level, had the medium and small fighters?

Originally posted by Rexxx:
Anyway, thanks a lot for sharing your idea about the 2nd DN design, I never would have thought of that one. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif No problem Rexxx. Simply I dislike to see many good AIs building pathetic designes (alternated with the good ones) in the late game!!!

Rexxx

March 19th, 2003, 11:53 PM

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
A few questions: the small and medium fighters had the same weapon (I assume "no").Yes http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif (sorry, I couldn't resist). Different weapons.

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
What weapons and level, had the medium and small fighters? Small fighters DUC III, medium fighters TKP I. Switching happened immediately after medium fighters were researched. DUCs III were discovered before medium fighters.
WPs: Small WPs CSM V, Medium WPs TKP III, switching happened immediately after medium WPs were researched. CSMs V were discovered before medium WPs.
That would mean that your presumption is correct. If the highest level for a certain weapon is attained the AI will not "forget" this achievement. It will always switch back to the design using this "achievement" regardless of any other - more recently - discoveries. By the way, switching back still happened from a large fighter with small TKPs III to the small one with small DUCs III. (The AI obviously has quite a good memory http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif )

Ships: CSM V was discovered before Cruiser class was researched, at this time TKP II was available.
TKP V was researched before battle cruiser tech. Switching occured only after DN class had been discovered (about 20 turns after that) and AI switched back to LCs not cruisers.
Ship Designs: Escort to cruiser with CSM, BC to DN with TKP.
That would also mean the AI switches back to the first design which had the highest level of the first weapon (again: never forgetting the "achievement", the LC was the first design coming with a CSM V.) Exactly what it did with units.
The only question that remains: why does it wait until DN tech is researched...

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif No problem Rexxx. Simply I dislike to see many good AIs building pathetic designes (alternated with the good ones) in the late game!!!Yeah, "pathetic" there were. But now only part of Gron history http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif . Thanks again.

Mephisto

March 20th, 2003, 12:17 AM

It seems to be always the same for the EA when they lose: They start in the bottom right and don't get enough radioactive planets. If I assign them one manually, they will fight back massively and have turned the tight again. I think the problem are the 100%-all-the-same planets for my races. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Master Belisarius

March 20th, 2003, 01:04 AM

Originally posted by Mephisto:
It seems to be always the same for the EA when they lose: They start in the bottom right and don't get enough radioactive planets. If I assign them one manually, they will fight back massively and have turned the tight again. I think the problem are the 100%-all-the-same planets for my races. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif Hug, are you talking about this contest?
Because can't see this problem with the current map and settings.

A few points.

A) Does exist systems with 140% in radioactives. Then IMHO, your races should select most of these planets as radioactive colony in those systems, unless they're lack of other thing.

B) With "low bonus", is not easy to see races with lack of resources.
I can't remember a race with lack of resources on this current contest. In fact specially checked the EA against the Fazrah, and didn't see that they were lack of any resource.

C) You know that if the AI is lack of something, will assign planets for the resource that need. This is why I did planets with 140%/100%/100%, 100%/140%/100% and 100%/100%/140%.
If the AI is lack of radioactives, will have not problems to use one of the planets with 140%/100%/100% or 100%/140%/100% to compensate the problem.

[ March 19, 2003, 23:08: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

Master Belisarius

March 20th, 2003, 01:22 AM

Originally posted by Rexxx:
Yes http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif (sorry, I couldn't resist). Different weapons.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Originally posted by Rexxx:

Small fighters DUC III, medium fighters TKP I. Switching happened immediately after medium fighters were researched. DUCs III were discovered before medium fighters.
Ok, this is the usual behavior: the AI use the biggest available design, without consider the weapon level for the new design.

Originally posted by Rexxx:

By the way, switching back still happened from a large fighter with small TKPs III to the small one with small DUCs III.
Yes, this is my point.
At some moment, the AI realize that can't continue improving the TKP. Then, to design their new fighter, take the best design with other weapon, and then, select the DUC III regardless are placed in smallest designes...

Originally posted by Rexxx:

The only question that remains: why does it wait until DN tech is researched...
Yes. Good question. But think that all this behavior is for the High Tech games.
Usually, the AI upgrade their ships when reach an improvement at some component. But after some time, will not exist more improvements anymore... then, to keep the AI creating new designs, think Aaron did it.

Originally posted by Rexxx:
Yeah, "pathetic" there were. But now only part of Gron history http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif . Thanks again.Hope was not offensive... and by the way, my AIs had this problem in the past! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Think all the AI modders should know this problem... would you mind to write it and our fix in a new post?? Think your english is better than my "pathetic" language skills!

[ March 19, 2003, 23:23: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

Master Belisarius

March 20th, 2003, 01:55 AM

Colonial vs Gron.

The Gron won at the turn 200. The Colonials had not opportunity.

Here the link: Colonials_vs_Gron_B6.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1048117354.zip)

Toron vs Khrel.
The Toron defeated the Khrel at the turn 270. Then, does exist 3 races with the same points in the group B6, then, I need to play a Tie Break.

Here the file: Khrel_vs_Gron_B6.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1048118123.zip)

Standings in the group B6.

Gron 2
Khrel 2
Toron 2
Colonials 0

Rexxx

March 20th, 2003, 11:17 AM

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
Hope was not offensive... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Not at all, just very helpful.

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
Think all the AI modders should know this problem... would you mind to write it and our fix in a new post?? Yes, I will.

Mephisto

March 20th, 2003, 12:02 PM

Hug, are you talking about this contest?
Because can't see this problem with the current map and settings.Indeed we are. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Every time I checked the EA it had to few radioactive planets. The EA has no deficit but an unbalance. It has 300k minerals and only 10k radioactive. Because of this it won't build ships. However I have to correct myself in one way. It is not because of the 100% planets but seems to be a problem with bonus. In a non bonus game, the EA keeps a good balance between all resources but in the bonus game it gets to much minerals and to few radioactive for a good balance. But until we can finally teach the AI to adjust its economy to its needs I will have to live with it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Master Belisarius

March 20th, 2003, 03:14 PM

Originally posted by Mephisto:
The EA has no deficit but an unbalance. It has 300k minerals and only 10k radioactive. Because of this it won't build ships.
Honestly, NEVER knew that a resource unbalance would force the AI to stop to build ships.
Never considered this, and then, I'll do my own tests...

About the Fazrah vs EA, I have checked how the EA selected the planets: only had 2 Refining Colonies in the systems that I did for it.
Why? Because in the planets.txt the EA have this option "Max Per System := 2"
Then, agree that this could affect the EA behavior: they were not designed to have many Refining Colonies placed in the same system. But I have assumed that if any AI would be lack of resources, always could use a planet not specially designed for Refining Colony and still get good resources.

About the problem with the "Low Bonus", I have my own guess: think the AI doesn't consider the bonus to select the kind of colony.
It mean, that they could FORCE a planet to be a Mining Colony, because believe that is lack of mineral without consider the bonus...
I have noted that my AIs used the planets with 70/70/70 for Mining Colony, when they still had a lot of Mineral available.

Rexxx

March 20th, 2003, 03:52 PM

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
About the problem with the "Low Bonus", I have my own guess: think the AI doesn't consider the bonus to select the kind of colony.
I can confirm this. In recent test games (with AI bonus) my AIs quite freqeuntly didn't follow my calls in the planet_types-file. They built up mining colonies on planets with a mineral value from 50%-99%. After realizing that I switched off the bonus (setting the AI to human control) and found everytime that the minerals net production per turn had become negative.
I think you're right. The AI didn't take the bonus factor into account, the colonizing decisions are based on the "basic" not the "bonus" income.

BTW I'm quite sure that this safety device (overriding my colony calls) only takes place if the planet has a value of 50% or more. I never had an AI (no bonus and bonus games) using a planet with a min/org/rad value lesser than 50% as a mining/farming/refining colony. No matter how big its lack of resources was.

Master Belisarius

March 20th, 2003, 04:39 PM

Originally posted by Rexxx:
I can confirm this. In recent test games (with AI bonus) my AIs quite freqeuntly didn't follow my calls in the planet_types-file. They built up mining colonies on planets with a mineral value from 50%-99%. After realizing that I switched off the bonus (setting the AI to human control) and found everytime that the minerals net production per turn had become negative.
I think you're right. The AI didn't take the bonus factor into account, the colonizing decisions are based on the "basic" not the "bonus" income.
Ok, thanks!

Originally posted by Rexxx:

BTW I'm quite sure that this safety device (overriding my colony calls) only takes place if the planet has a value of 50% or more. I never had an AI (no bonus and bonus games) using a planet with a min/org/rad value lesser than 50% as a mining/farming/refining colony. No matter how big its lack of resources was.Good! Then it was fixed, because in the past, I saw the AI select a planet as Mining Colony, when the planet had 0% in Mineral!!!

Mephisto

March 20th, 2003, 05:07 PM

I guess, the "overriding mechanism" is only invoked if the AI really has a negative income. As the EA has no negative income (the maintenance setting keeps it just above that) it will follow the Ai files (i.e. too few radioactive planets for this map). Well, you cannot create an AI for every map. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Master Belisarius

March 20th, 2003, 05:31 PM

Originally posted by Mephisto:
I guess, the "overriding mechanism" is only invoked if the AI really has a negative income. As the EA has no negative income (the maintenance setting keeps it just above that) it will follow the Ai files (i.e. too few radioactive planets for this map). Well, you cannot create an AI for every map. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Thanks.
But it worked in the previous contest...
Don't understand how the low bonus can affect the AI.

Mephisto

March 20th, 2003, 06:43 PM

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Thanks. But it worked in the previous contest... Don't understand how the low bonus can affect the AI.With no boni the AI can quite easily run in a deficit by just adding 1 or 2 ships (or a large expensive ship like a star creator) because at least in the beginning you normal have just a surplus of round about 5k to 10k per mineral. In the bonus game, you don't hit the deficit quite as fast as you have at least 10k to 20k surplus. If the AI now adds a expensive ship, it will still have a surplus but will not another ship because of the maintenance threshold. In the no-boni game it will already have a deficit. It won't add another ship either but you are already loosing money from your storage and it will assign the next planet for the deficit resource.
The other problem is the �only 2 radioactive planets per system� setting as nearly all the good radioactive planets are in one system on this map. Nevertheless I think this setting is useful as it prevents the AI in a normal game to only build one type of colonies. Ok, I stop *****ing now. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Master Belisarius

March 20th, 2003, 06:49 PM

Originally posted by Mephisto:
Ok, I stop *****ing now. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
But still don't understand how a resource unbalance makes the AI to stop build ships... If this is as you said, it's a bug, not a feature.

At the turn 100 in the game Fazrah vs EA, the EA had this resource production: Minerals 475371, Organic 78489 and Radioactives 53580.
Why then, the AI should not build more ships?? Doesn't look very smart.
Now I'm running a game, then, can't test anything. But later will change a bit the EA vehicle_construction file, to see if they would like to build more ships.

Mephisto

March 20th, 2003, 08:09 PM

Ok, I was a bit unclear. The AI does not stop building ships entirely. But when they come close to the maintenance limit, they will only put one or two ships into the build queue, "dancing around that limit�. If the AI loses a ship (and gain room to the maintenance limit) it will put one more ship into the queue. It takes around 5 turns to build one ship. It will not build another ship for 5 turns as it is (with production) now at the threshold. It's no bug at all, just an inefficient use of the resources.
Let's take these numbers: Minerals 475371, Organic 78489 and Radioactives 53580.

Assume that a ship costs 25k Minerals and 10k Radioactives.
The AI will only round about build 3 ships because this will set the radioactives to 20k and which point it hits the threshold. 400k minerals are not used.
If the AI had more radioactives and less minerals, it would build more ships and would efficiently used all resources. The EA AI has to few radioactive planets and therefore is wasting mineral production that would be used if the had somewhat less minerals and more radioactives.
You see, no bug at all, just something the AI is not doing very well (resource management). With nearly all the radioactive planets in one system, the EA AI has this problem more then some other AIs because it will only take 2 radioactive planets per system, wasting other minerals that are not used. Give them 2 more radioactive planets per system and they will use up their resource much more evenly. In fact I have dedicated only one more breathable planet of the EA for radioactive production on turn 110 of the Fazra-EA match and it changed to whole game for the EA. The game is still undecided in turn 130 but very even with a slight advantage for the EA at the moment.

Master Belisarius

March 20th, 2003, 11:23 PM

Originally posted by Mephisto:
Ok, I was a bit unclear. The AI does not stop building ships entirely. But when they come close to the maintenance limit, they will only put one or two ships into the build queue, "dancing around that limit”. If the AI loses a ship (and gain room to the maintenance limit) it will put one more ship into the queue. It takes around 5 turns to build one ship. It will not build another ship for 5 turns as it is (with production) now at the threshold. It's no bug at all, just an inefficient use of the resources.
Let's take these numbers: Minerals 475371, Organic 78489 and Radioactives 53580.

Assume that a ship costs 25k Minerals and 10k Radioactives.
The AI will only round about build 3 ships because this will set the radioactives to 20k and which point it hits the threshold. 400k minerals are not used.
If the AI had more radioactives and less minerals, it would build more ships and would efficiently used all resources. The EA AI has to few radioactive planets and therefore is wasting mineral production that would be used if the had somewhat less minerals and more radioactives.
You see, no bug at all, just something the AI is not doing very well (resource management). With nearly all the radioactive planets in one system, the EA AI has this problem more then some other AIs because it will only take 2 radioactive planets per system, wasting other minerals that are not used. Give them 2 more radioactive planets per system and they will use up their resource much more evenly. In fact I have dedicated only one more breathable planet of the EA for radioactive production on turn 110 of the Fazra-EA match and it changed to whole game for the EA. The game is still undecided in turn 130 but very even with a slight advantage for the EA at the moment.Now I understand and agree with you.
The problem was that the AI reached the 'maintenance limit' for radioactives, not a problem related with a production unbalance itlself.

I understand your idea to limit the number of radioactive planets (and other resource planets) into a systems, but I would suggest that you should raise this number, for planets with more than 130%.
What if in a normal game, the AI colonize 2 small planets or mooons with 130% radioactives, but after research Gas Colonization, had a huge planet available to colonize into the same system, with 140% in radioactives??? The AI will lose the opportunity to use the potential of this planet, great for a Refining colony.

[ March 20, 2003, 22:16: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

Rexxx

March 20th, 2003, 11:38 PM

Master Belisarius' and my findings about design rotating:

If the AI uses different weapons for a certain ship or unit type sooner or later it will begin to rotate designs (using obsolete (smaller) designs even if much better ones are available). If all of your attack (or whatever) ships (or units) will use always the same weapon, design rotating will not occur.

To give some examples:
Units:
Small fighters DUC III, medium fighters TKP I. Rotating back to small fighters happened immediately after medium fighters were researched. DUCs III were discovered before medium fighters.
WPs: Small WPs CSM V, Medium WPs TKP III. Rotating back to small WPs happened immediately after medium WPs were researched. CSMs V were discovered before medium WPs.
It seems, that if the highest level for a certain weapon is attained the AI will not "forget" this achievement. On the other hand the AI tries to use the newest design for a certain vehicle type without considering the level of the weapon this design has. To solve this problem it rotates between the old "achievement" and the newer (bigger) design. This rotating will take place regardless of any other - more recently - discoveries. Even if large fighters with small TKPs III are available the AI will rotate back to the small one with small DUCs III.

Ships: CSMs V were discovered before Cruiser class was researched, at this time TKPs II were available. TKPs V were researched before battle cruiser tech.
Rotating occured only after DN class had been discovered (about 20 turns after that) and AI rotated back to LCs not cruisers.
Ship Designs: Escort to cruiser with CSM, BC to DN with TKP.
It also seems that the AI rotates back to the first design which had the highest level of the first weapon (again: never forgetting the "achievement", the LC was the first design coming with a CSM V.) Exactly what it did with units. The only difference is that - as far
as we know - rotating back only occurs somewhat after the DN tech is researched.

This bad habit can be avoided by adjusting the majority weapon picks.

Using
....
Majority Weapon Family Pick 1 := 34
Majority Weapon Family Pick 2 := 2
...
for all your your attack (or whatever)ships/fighters/WPs will prevent any design rotating. The drawback is that the AI will use the first pick immediately after it is researched or the first design with it becomes available. You have to live with low levels of the TKP for lots of turns...

There is another possibility. Create 2 different designs for DNs (different weaponry) and large fighters/WPs. The AI still rotates designs. However, it does not fall back to smaller ships/fighters/WPs but only rotates between the two DN designs. It is crucial that the designs come with different weaponry, it seems that design rotating is triggered by weapons. This approach makes it possible that the smaller ships still can use the best available weapon (and not the one which is most recently discovered), that means for the example above the first TKP-ships which appear are coming with a TKP V and not with the TKP I.
For any more details about this approach check MB's AIs. (As I said: no mercy http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif ).

Master Belisarius

March 21st, 2003, 12:12 AM

I did the Tie Break between the Gron/Khrel/Toron, and thanks God, the Toron defeated the Khrel in the Last game!!!! If not I would be forced to continue playing extra games!

Khrel vs Gron.
The Gron won at the turn 500.
Link: Khrel_vs_Gron_B6TB1.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1048196683.zip)

Gron vs Toron.
The Toron won at the turn 500 (a boring game with a military alliance until the end).
Link: Gron_vs_Toron_B6TB2.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1048197588.zip)

Toron vs Khrel.
The Toron got a deserved victory at the turn 380.
Link: Toron_vs_Khrel_B6TB3.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1048198287.zip)

Then the standings in the Tie Break are:

Toron 2
Gron 1
Khrel 0

Master Belisarius

March 21st, 2003, 12:15 AM

Third Round
===========

GROUP C1
Space Vikings
Namovans
Khrel

GROUP C2
Pyrochette
EEE
Sallega

GROUP C3
Fazrah
Aquilaeian
Rage

GROUP C4
United Flora
Cue Cappa
Earth Alliance

GROUP C5
Tessellate
Gron
Orks

GROUP C6
Toron
Narn Regime
Piundon

Rollo

March 21st, 2003, 12:37 AM

Great work on this contest MB http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif . I am sure a lot of valuable data is produced that way. Hopefully I can find the time and review some games, once I get my new system running.

I am not much up to date with this colony bug. Is that the same thing that occured somtimes with SE4 v1.49, but was hard to track down? I don't know if you recall this, but we talked about this quite some time ago, when I was developing the Vikings. Hopefully these games can give the data to track this bug down.

cya,
Rollo

Rollo

March 21st, 2003, 12:44 AM

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
snip...
The United Flora won at the turn 200.
Have expected a more balanced game, but with "low bonus" the United Flora looks unstoppable!Hehe, I wouldn't bet on this http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif . Once they encounter your new race, they will have no chance in the organic vs. crystalline matchup.

edit: oh and btw.. in reply to your email a while back (can't access that right now): I am honored and of course you have permission to use any of the AI stuff that I did for the UF. glad you like them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ March 20, 2003, 22:48: Message edited by: Rollo ]

Master Belisarius

March 21st, 2003, 02:24 AM

Space Vikings vs Namovans.

The Space Vikings got a deserved victory against the Namovans. They won before the turn 340.

Here the link: Vikings_vs_Namovans_C1.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1048206077.zip)

Master Belisarius

March 21st, 2003, 02:30 AM

Originally posted by Rollo:
Great work on this contest MB http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif . I am sure a lot of valuable data is produced that way. Hopefully I can find the time and review some games, once I get my new system running.
I'm glad to see you back, and hope you will have running soon the system again... Just remember to me the Last time when I lost everything in my HD, but at least you was able to rescue your info, I needed to use a backup done 3 month before the crash http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif (my fault, I know).

And yes, I think you could find some interesting data. For example, I don't know if you already knew the problem described by Rexxx, about the ship designes.

Originally posted by Rollo:
I am not much up to date with this colony bug. Is that the same thing that occured somtimes with SE4 v1.49, but was hard to track down? I don't know if you recall this, but we talked about this quite some time ago, when I was developing the Vikings. Hopefully these games can give the data to track this bug down.
Hugh, honestly I can't recall. Can remember that in the past we discovered that the AI could reach the max number of colony ships, all of them Colony Rock for example, and then the AI unable to colonize the available Ice/Gas planets.

This is something different: check the game between the Aquilaeian and Gron. During near of 100 turns, the Aquilaeian only built Ice colonies. Although the Aquilaeian sent to die lots of colony ships, always the new colony ship constructed were Ice colony ships...

[ March 21, 2003, 00:36: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

Master Belisarius

March 21st, 2003, 02:35 AM

Originally posted by Rollo:
Hehe, I wouldn't bet on this http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif . Once they encounter your new race, they will have no chance in the organic vs. crystalline matchup.
I wouldn't bet the Tessellate would win... the UF expand very fast, and the Tessellate running in the contest is a beta Version (I did several tweaks, and still feel they need to be adjusted).

Originally posted by Rollo:

edit: oh and btw.. in reply to your email a while back (can't access that right now): I am honored and of course you have permission to use any of the AI stuff that I did for the UF. glad you like them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Thanks, thanks Rollo! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Always considered the UF one of the best (probably the best AI), not only for the challenge... your ideas were very original.

Master Belisarius

March 22nd, 2003, 10:19 PM

I'm back...

Pyrochette vs EEE.

Another long game. I'm starting to consider exclude the Pyrochette from the rest of the contest! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif Yea, near to 24 hours playing...

The Pyrochette defeated the EEE by points at the Turn 500. They started with problems to colonize their available planets, and the EEE invaded some Pyrochette's systems, but slowly the Pyrochette changed the course of the game, and finished at the offensive.

Here the link: Pyrochette_vs_EEE_C2.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1048364080.zip)

Master Belisarius

March 23rd, 2003, 09:54 PM

United Flora vs CueCappa.

The United Flora defeated the CueCappa at the turn 310.
They had a few problems in the early game, but after some turns, they invaded the CueCappa's systems and reached a deserved victory.

Here the link: UFlora_vs_CueCappa_C4.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1048448774.zip)

Master Belisarius

March 24th, 2003, 02:28 AM

Fazrah vs Aquilaeian.

The Aquilaeian won by points at the turn 500.
During the first part of the game, the Fazrah performed very well and had the initiative attacking Rove, and in fact, when I was going to sleep believed they would win.
But no, at the end the Aquilaeian resisted and got the AAr system from the Fazrah.

Here the link: Fazrah_vs_Aquilaeian_C3.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1048422456.zip)

Master Belisarius

March 24th, 2003, 04:04 PM

Tessellate vs Gron.

2 Combo races (Cristalline-Religious vs Temporal-Religious).
The Tessellate had the usual problems (just build Ice Colony ships during many time), but anyway they attacked the external Gron's system early on the game, then, the Gron had problems to expand too.
The Tessellate won at the turn 300.

Here the link: Tessellate_vs_Gron_C5.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1048514447.zip)

Master Belisarius

March 24th, 2003, 04:18 PM

Toron vs Narn Regime.

Both races signed a Military Alliance, and continued with this treaty until the end of the game... The Narn won by points at the turn 500.

Here the link: Toron_vs_Narn_C6.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1048515434.zip)

Master Belisarius

March 24th, 2003, 04:31 PM

Vikings vs Khrel.

The Khrel reached a deserved victory at the turn 250. The Vikings had the usual problems starting in the up-side... but anyway, they were unable to stop the Khrel fleets.

Here the link: Vikings_vs_Khrel_C1.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1048516117.zip)

Master Belisarius

March 24th, 2003, 06:20 PM

Pyrochette vs Sallega

The Pyrochette had not problems to defeat the Sallega before the turn 248.

Here the link: Pyrochette_vs_Sallega_C2.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1048522635.zip)

Rollo

March 24th, 2003, 06:29 PM

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
...Hugh, honestly I can't recall. Can remember that in the past we discovered that the AI could reach the max number of colony ships, all of them Colony Rock for example, and then the AI unable to colonize the available Ice/Gas planets.

This is something different: check the game between the Aquilaeian and Gron. During near of 100 turns, the Aquilaeian only built Ice colonies. Although the Aquilaeian sent to die lots of colony ships, always the new colony ship constructed were Ice colony ships...Well, as I said that was like 18 months ago and the evidence was very sketchy... (so, no worries for not recalling http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ).
But what you describe is what I have seen also back then. An AI would only build one type of colonizer. I manually scrapped some of them and found that the minister would replace again with the wrong type.
I haven't seen that happen in a long time, so I assumed it was patched out during the upgrade to gold. Apparently it wasn't...
The bug seemed more frequent on maps that had not all warp points connected. I can only speculate here, but maybe planets that cannot be reached influence the ministers decisions (in spite of the fact that the AI should have no knowledge of them).

Rollo

[ March 24, 2003, 16:34: Message edited by: Rollo ]

Master Belisarius

March 24th, 2003, 07:10 PM

Originally posted by Rollo:
Well, as I said that was like 18 months ago and the evidence was very sketchy... (so, no worries for not recalling http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ).
But what you describe is what I have seen also back then. An AI would only build one type of colonizer. I manually scrapped some of them and found that the minister would replace again with the wrong type.
Then, think I misunderstood you... or my neurons are really dying quick! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Originally posted by Rollo:

The bug seemed more frequent on maps that had not all warp points connected. I can only speculate here, but maybe planets that cannot be reached influence the ministers decisions (in spite of the fact that the AI should have no knowledge of them).Could be, really I don't know the reason.
But the interesting is that if using the same map and same AIs, you start a game between the Aquilaeian and Gron, but exchanging starting sides, you will see that the Aquilaeian will have not problems to colonize, but the Gron yes...

Master Belisarius

March 24th, 2003, 09:45 PM

Fazrah vs Rage

The Fazrah defeated the Rage at the turn 267. They always had the inititative and won without problems (although the Rage used sun destroyers to kill some of their own invaded systems!)

Here the link: Fazrah_vs_Rage_C3.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1048535058.zip)

Master Belisarius

March 24th, 2003, 11:28 PM

United Flora vs Earth Alliance.

The United Flora defeated the EA before the turn 200 and without problems.

Here the link: UFlora_vs_EA_C4.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1048541254.zip)

It's pretty obvious that all the Mephisto's races are not performing so well like in the first contest did.
As Mephisto wrote, the map (with specialized systems) plus the "low bonus", are not good game settings for them.
Anyway, IMHO still think that for these races should be increased a bit, the maximum of refinery/farming colonies per system (see my explanation below).

[ March 24, 2003, 21:29: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

Master Belisarius

March 25th, 2003, 04:50 AM

Tessellate vs Orks.

A very interesting game (at least to me!).
The Tessellate expanded fast and started to attack the external Orks' sytems early. During the turns 120 to 170, conquered many systems and destroyed 2 Orks' homeworlds. Then, I believed the game would finish very soon... wrong! Somehow the Orks stopped the Tessellate attacks (don't think they could have done it against an human opponent, hehehe), and recovered several systems.
But, when the Tessellate's DN with Quantum Reactors started to attack, the game was decided.
The Tessellate won at the turn 280.

Here the link: Tessellate_vs_Orks_C5.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1048560562.zip)

Master Belisarius

March 25th, 2003, 03:04 PM

Namovans vs Khrel.

The Namovans offered a good fight to the Khrel, but at the end was unable to stop them...
The Khrel won at the turn 410.

Here the link: Namovans_vs_Khrel_C1.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1048595740.zip)

[ March 25, 2003, 18:16: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

Master Belisarius

March 25th, 2003, 08:28 PM

EEE vs Sallega.

The EEE defeated the Sallega at the turn 320.
The Sallega had some success in the early game, attacking the Aargau system, and later colonizing planets at Baksha and AAr.
But slowly the EEE changed the game to their side.

Here the link: EEE_vs_Sallega_C2.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1048616857.zip)

Rexxx

March 25th, 2003, 09:58 PM

I just checked the EEE-Sallega savegames.
The fact that the AI takes the basic (and not the bonus boosted) resource production into account when it decides about colony types leads to many interesting results (to put it mildly).
All those nice research and intelligence compounds abused for mining and refining while the empire already is buried under piles of ore... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
This bug reduces any attempt of writing a bonus using AI to estimated guessing (not very estimated but lots of guessing).
Has anyone reported it to MM?

Master Belisarius

March 25th, 2003, 10:24 PM

Originally posted by Rexxx:
I just checked the EEE-Sallega savegames.
The fact that the AI takes the basic (and not the bonus boosted) resource production into account when it decides about colony types leads to many interesting results (to put it mildly).
All those nice research and intelligence compounds abused for mining and refining while the empire already is buried under piles of ore... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
This bug reduces any attempt of writing a bonus using AI to estimated guessing (not very estimated but lots of guessing).
Has anyone reported it to MM?Yes, I have reported it, but think would be good if you and others report it too...

Rexxx

March 25th, 2003, 11:21 PM

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
Yes, I have reported it, but think would be good if you and others report it too...Will do it.
I never would have guessed that your contest will uncover such serious bugs. Obviously it's not only helpful for AI-modding but for the game itself. Hopefully Aaron will find the time to get rid of them.

Master Belisarius

March 25th, 2003, 11:50 PM

Originally posted by Rexxx:
[QUOTE]Will do it.
Thanks. Aaron consider more fast to fix a bug, if more people report it! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Originally posted by Rexxx:
[QUOTE]
I never would have guessed that your contest will uncover such serious bugs. Obviously it's not only helpful for AI-modding but for the game itself. Hopefully Aaron will find the time to get rid of them.Yes, hope we will have a new patch... but because he's very bussy with their other projects, I can't bet that.

Master Belisarius

March 26th, 2003, 01:17 AM

Aquilaeian vs Rage.

The Aquilaeian defeated the Rage without problems, at the turn 262 (but the game was decided a long time before this turn).

Here the link: Aquilaeian_vs_Rage_C3.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1048633758.zip)

Master Belisarius

March 26th, 2003, 01:37 AM

Toron vs Piundon.

Sorry guys, but just now, realized that have not uploaded this game...

The Toron defeated the Piundon without big opposition, at the turn 210.

Here the link: Toron_vs_Piundon_C6.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1048634796.zip)

Master Belisarius

March 26th, 2003, 01:53 AM

CueCappa vs EA.

The CueCappa won before the turn 280.
Once more, was an unbalanced game. Is pretty obvious that with this game settings, the EA are the "shadow" of what they really are.

Here the link: CueCappa_vs_EA_C4.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1048636378.zip)

Master Belisarius

March 26th, 2003, 03:51 PM

Gron vs Orks

The Orks defeated the Gron at the turn 310.
The Gron had the usual problems to colonize (only 5 Gas ships), and because never were destroyed or used to colonize a new planet, the Gron doesn't built more colony ships. Around the turn 160 the Gron started to have their first Rock colony and near to the turn 200, some Ice colonies.
The Orks played a good game. Did a hole into the Gron territory and always had the initiative.

Here the link: Gron_vs_Orks_C5.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1048685257.zip)

Master Belisarius

March 26th, 2003, 07:00 PM

Narn vs Piundon.

Until the turn 100 was a balanced game, but at the turn 150 the Narn controled the Rove system, and was obvious that would be very difficult for the Piundon change their fate.
The Narn defeated the Piundon at the turn 359.

Here the link: Narn_vs_Piundon_C6.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1048697179.zip)

Master Belisarius

March 26th, 2003, 07:36 PM

Namovans vs Space Vikings.

The Space Vikings had not problems to defeat the Namovans. They won before the turn 180.

Here the link: Namovans_vs_Vikings_C1.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1048700160.zip)

Master Belisarius

March 27th, 2003, 05:12 AM

EEE vs Pyrochette.

Considering the problems that the EEE had starting in the upper side of the map, I believed would be hard for them reach the victory.
I was right, but the EEE offered a very good resistance. The Pyrochette won at the turn 287.

Here the link: EEE_vs_Pyrochette_C2.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1048734401.zip)

Master Belisarius

March 27th, 2003, 05:02 PM

Aquilaeian vs Fazrah.

A good game. The Fazrah has the initiative during all the game, and won at the turn 450

Here the link: Aquilaeian_vs_Fazrah_C3.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1048777235.zip)

Dralasite

March 27th, 2003, 05:10 PM

This is the first thread I look for whenever I come to the forum. Thanks for doing this!

Master Belisarius

March 27th, 2003, 06:03 PM

Originally posted by Dralasite:
This is the first thread I look for whenever I come to the forum. Thanks for doing this!http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Thanks for your kind words, Dralasite!

CueCappa vs United Flora.

For sure the CueCappa is a great AI... but starting in the upper side and fighting against the UF, they were slaughtered... The UF won before the turn 160.

Here the link: CueCappa_vs_UFlora_C4.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1048780869.zip)

[ March 27, 2003, 16:04: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

Rexxx

March 27th, 2003, 06:12 PM

I have two questions about the AI. They are not crucial I just want to know how the AI ticks. Being too lazy for any testing right now I choose the easier way of asking here. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Originally posted by Mephisto:
Let's take these numbers: Minerals 475371, Organic 78489 and Radioactives 53580.

Assume that a ship costs 25k Minerals and 10k Radioactives.
The AI will only round about build 3 ships because this will set the radioactives to 20k and which point it hits the threshold. 400k minerals are not used.
That would mean that the AI considers only the total cost of a ship when it decides how it should use the amount of net income above the maintenance threshold for construction.
I always thought (but never actually checked it) that it will take the construction rates into account. I would have guessed (using the numbers from above and assuming that there are SYs available with rates of 3000 rads per turn) that the AI will add ten ships ships to the construction queues.
I do not doubt Mephistos number's, especially after I realized that nobody else did http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif . I'm just curious and want to be sure.

I asked this already in a different thread without getting an answer. I just assume that nobody read it and try again:

Quote from the unit_construction-file:
On each turn, this file will be processed (if it exists), and units will be added to all planetary construction queues which:
1. Are not currently busy.
2. Those planets which have reached maximum facilities.
3. The amount consumed per turn won't reduce the empire's resources to zero.

In mid- and endgame quite frequently lots of planets met these criteria. Has anyone figured out how the AI decides on which planets it will actually built units? Which criteria are used for this decision?

Master Belisarius

March 27th, 2003, 06:39 PM

Originally posted by Rexxx:
That would mean that the AI considers only the total cost of a ship when it decides how it should use the amount of net income above the maintenance threshold for construction.
Yep, think the AI consider the TOTAL cost of the ship, then, agree with Mephisto.

Originally posted by Rexxx:
In mid- and endgame quite frequently lots of planets met these criteria. Has anyone figured out how the AI decides on which planets it will actually built units? Which criteria are used for this decision?Good questions... but I ave not clue. If you request my "guess", think is more or less random.

oleg

March 27th, 2003, 06:47 PM

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
....For sure the CueCappa is a great AI... but starting in the upper side and fighting against the UF, they were slaughtered... The UF won before the turn 160.

This is not a first time you mention that starting position affects the result. Is it possible to repeat the match with possitions reversed ? Sure, it is too much for whole tournament, but may be for Last rounds ??

Master Belisarius

March 27th, 2003, 06:55 PM

Originally posted by oleg:
This is not a first time you mention that starting position affects the result. Is it possible to repeat the match with possitions reversed ? Sure, it is too much for whole tournament, but may be for Last rounds ??http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Already I'm doing this, and will continue from this round to the end.

United Flora vs CueCappa
=> United Flora won at the turn 310.
Cuecappa vs United Flora
=> United Flora won at the turn 160.

The first AI in the name of the game, is the AI that start in the upper side.

Edit: Oleg, thanks for your suggestion!

[ March 27, 2003, 16:59: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

Master Belisarius

March 27th, 2003, 08:45 PM

Gron vs Tessellate.

The Tessellate defeated without problems the Gron, before the turn 190.

Here the link: Gron_vs_Tessellate_C5.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1048790468.zip)

Master Belisarius

March 28th, 2003, 12:27 AM

Narn vs Toron

Like in the first game, both races signed a Military Alliance until the end of the game...
The Toron won at the turn 500 by points.

Here the link: Narn_vs_Toron_C6.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1048803939.zip)

I'm starting to see that will need to play several tie-breaks... then here are my criterions (because can't play tie-breaks forever!).

2 games, changing starting places.
A) If one race reach the victory in the two games, will get the first place.
B) If every race won 1 game, then:
i) The first place will be for the race that won their game in less turns.
ii) If both races won with the same number of turns, then, will sum the points of both races in both games: the race with more points will be the winner.

[ March 27, 2003, 22:28: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

Master Belisarius

March 28th, 2003, 01:32 AM

Khrel vs Vikings.

The Vikings defeated the Khrel before the turn 150... seems we will have a new tie-break.

Here the link: Khrel_vs_Vikings_C1.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1048807871.zip)

Master Belisarius

March 28th, 2003, 03:14 AM

Sallega vs Pyrochette.

The Pyrochette defeated the Sallega without problems, before the turn 189.

Here the link: Sallega_vs_Pyrochete_C2.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1048813708.zip)

Rexxx

March 28th, 2003, 12:04 PM

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
I'm starting to see that will need to play several tie-breaks... then here are my criterions (because can't play tie-breaks forever!).

2 games, changing starting places.
A) If one race reach the victory in the two games, will get the first place.
B) If every race won 1 game, then:
i) The first place will be for the race that won their game in less turns.
ii) If both races won with the same number of turns, then, will sum the points of both races in both games: the race with more points will be the winner.That will minimize the effects of the colony bug as far as possible. The best solution under these circumstances.

Master Belisarius

March 28th, 2003, 03:02 PM

Originally posted by Rexxx:
[QUOTE]That will minimize the effects of the colony bug as far as possible. The best solution under these circumstances.Yes, think is the best we can do... but... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

Master Belisarius

March 28th, 2003, 03:15 PM

Earth Alliance vs United Flora.

The United Flora defeated the Earth Alliance in less than 150 turns.

Here the link: EA_vs_UFlora_C4.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1048857267.zip)

Rexxx

March 28th, 2003, 03:41 PM

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
Yes, think is the best we can do... but... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif Exactly...

Master Belisarius

March 28th, 2003, 05:20 PM

Orks vs Tessellate.

The Tessellate defeated the Orks before the turn 180, and then, the next game between the Gron and the Orks will be decisive for them.

Here the link: Orks_vs_Tessellate_C5.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1048864748.zip)

Master Belisarius

March 28th, 2003, 07:11 PM

Piundon vs Toron.

The Toron needed some time, but won a deserved game against the Piundon.
The Toron won at the turn 290.

Here the link: Piundon_vs_Toron_C6.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1048871339.zip)

Master Belisarius

March 29th, 2003, 05:55 AM

Khrel vs Namovans.

The Khrel won by points at the turn 500.
At some point, believed the Khrel could defeat without problems the Namovans, but slowly the Namovans recovered their loses. Anyway, the Khrel won with a good difference of points.

Here the link: Khrel_vs_Namovans_C1.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1048909491.zip)

Then the standings in the group C1 are:

Vikings 3 points
Khrel 3 points
Namovans 0 points

Then, will need to run a tie break between the Vikings and Khrel.

Master Belisarius

March 29th, 2003, 03:30 PM

Sallega vs EEE.

The EEE defeated the Sallega before the turn 170.
The Sallega was unable to stop them...

Here the link: Sallega_vs_EEE_C2.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1048944043.zip)

Then, the final standings in the group C2 are:

Pyrochette 4 Points
EEE 2 Points
Sallega 0 Point.

The Pyrochette and EEE continue to the next round.

Unknown_Enemy

March 29th, 2003, 04:52 PM

Thanks to the devious mind of Nodachi http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif , the SE4 batch works on windows XP. But I could not get the installer to work.

So I put all the files from setup1.cab in a directory, and reinstalled SE4 to its default loacation.

Then indeed if you don't try to update anything from the SE4 Batch configuration, it is working.

It is probably the same for windows 2000.

Master Belisarius

March 29th, 2003, 05:07 PM

Originally posted by Unknown_Enemy:
Thanks to the devious mind of Nodachi http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif , the SE4 batch works on windows XP. But I could not get the installer to work.

So I put all the files from setup1.cab in a directory, and reinstalled SE4 to its default loacation.

Then indeed if you don't try to update anything from the SE4 Batch configuration, it is working.

It is probably the same for windows 2000.Great!
To change the SEBatch configuration, you only need to change the values into fields of the file "paramete.dbf", using something that could change these files.

Master Belisarius

March 29th, 2003, 10:10 PM

Rage vs Aquilaeian.

The Aquilaeian defeated the Rage before the turn 290.
Although the Rage offered a good combat, always looked like the victory for the Aquilaeian would be matter of time...

Here the link: Rage_vs_Aquilaeian_C3.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1048968535.zip)

Also... the standings in the group C3 are:

Fazrah 3 points
Aquilaeian 3 points
Rage 0 point

Then, will need to run a tie-break between the Fazrah and Aquilaeian to determine the first place.

[ March 29, 2003, 20:45: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

Master Belisarius

March 29th, 2003, 10:57 PM

EA vs CueCappa.

The CueCappa had not problems to defeat the EA, then, got the second place.

Link: EA_vs_CueCappa_C4.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1048970921.zip)

The Standings in the group C4 are:

United Flora 4 Points
CueCappa 2 Points
Earth Alliance 0 Points

Master Belisarius

March 30th, 2003, 05:08 PM

Orks vs Gron.

Like the first game between them, was a very interesting game!!
The Gron had the initiative and conquered Aargau, and believed the Orks will have problems to resist. But slowly the Orks recovered and won the game by points at the turn 500 (near to the turn 700 they killed the Gron).
Is very interesting to me, because the Gron is a "combo" race, and in theory, they should have a great advantage in the final sprint... but no, the Orks won 2 times, after be in a worst situation and recovered in the late game.

Here the link: Orks_Vs_Gron_C5.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1049036756.zip)

I had problems to run this game... once my computer crashed, other time, needed to cancel the process, because my wife needed to use Net2Phone.

Then, the standings in the group C5 are:

Tessellate 4
Orks 2
Gron 0

Urendi Maleldil

March 30th, 2003, 05:47 PM

I guess Orks fight best with their backs against the wall.

Rexxx

March 30th, 2003, 08:01 PM

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
Orks vs Gron.

Is very interesting to me, because the Gron is a "combo" race, and in theory, they should have a great advantage in the final sprint... Yeah, that was my guess, too.

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
Here the link: Orks_Vs_Gron_C5.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1049036756.zip)This link is for the match Toron vs. Piundon. Could you please post the Ork-Gron match, I'm very interested in the savegames. Just want to figure out what went so terribly wrong.

Master Belisarius

March 30th, 2003, 09:31 PM

Originally posted by Rexxx:
[QUOTE]This link is for the match Toron vs. Piundon. Could you please post the Ork-Gron match, I'm very interested in the savegames. Just want to figure out what went so terribly wrong.Oh sorry. Are so many games, then, time in time I do mistakes...

About why the Orks won, really I'm not sure. But one reason think was they used the stellar manipulation with success.

Here the link (I hope): Orks_vs_Gron_C5.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1049051785.zip)

Master Belisarius

March 30th, 2003, 09:54 PM

Piundon vs Narn Regime.

The Narn had not problems to defeat the Piundon, although they needed to wait until the turn 340 to claim victory.

Here the link: Piundon_vs_Narn_C6.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1049054028.zip)

The standings in the group C6 are:

Toron 3 points
Narn 3 points
Piundon 0 point

Will run a Tie Break between the Toron and Narn

[ March 30, 2003, 20:40: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

Master Belisarius

March 31st, 2003, 02:35 AM

Vikings vs Khrel.

This was the first game to decide who get the first place.
The Vikings won at the trun 310, and this will make hard the things for the Khrel, because the next game they will start in the upper side.

Here the link: Vikings_vs_Khrel_C1TB1.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1049070882.zip)

Master Belisarius

March 31st, 2003, 03:51 AM

Khrel vs Vikings

This time, the Vikings had no problems to defeat the Khrel: they won at the turn 130, and then, got the first place.

Here the link: Khrel_vs_Vikings_C1TB2.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1049075104.zip)

The final standings in the grouup C1 are:

Space Vikings 5 points
Khrel 3 points
Namovans 0 point

Rexxx

March 31st, 2003, 09:50 PM

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
Oh sorry. Are so many games, then, time in time I do mistakes... No problem. Without all your efforts there wouldn't be any savegames at all.

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
About why the Orks won, really I'm not sure. But one reason think was they used the stellar manipulation with success.Yeah, they destroyed the Gron homeworlds. The only Gron system which had no system gravitational shield.
However, at this point (ca. turn 430) the game was already decided. The Orks had twice as many ships as the Gron (turn 255: 329 vs. 204, turn 355: 389 vs. 209). Very slowly that superior strength changed the course of the game. I guess the talisman protected the Gron from being buried much faster. (They still had a higher score for lots of turns but only because of resources/research etc.). However, at a certain point not even the talisman could help. The riots began (some colonies were lost but mainly the appearance of more and more Ork ships caused them). And riots equal being doomed...

A very interesting game affirming two former observations. My AIs don't use the abundance of resources provided by the bonus, at least not to the same degree as other AIs do. And secondly troops are crucial to prevent riots, which especially is true for the contest but for the "normal" game as well. I guess I can't help designing troops for my peaceful AIs... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif