AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent [Archive] - Page 3

JLS

September 4th, 2003, 10:14 PM

Originally posted by oleg:
Thanks all for advise ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
But should I first research other colonization techs and build up my colonies or go strait away to warp opener ? Oleg I strongly recommend you play with Neutrals included, start with Rock as a suggestion and you are most likely to start with more planets in your Solitary no warp Home System� Consider OFFER TRADE for the other Colonization TECHS as you would in any game with the AI, if you are in a TR with them; they may trade for as little as 20kt of any resource even a Comm. Link or in regards to Neutrals trade your Colonizer tech; even better if it is no use to them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Research Stellar Manipulation ASAP but also research some weapons, fighters and at least Frigates if not Destroyer to PRE defend that NEW warp hole. Mines may be of some value, since it should be around the Sixth to fourteenth year you open your first warp (Depending how Defensive, Offensive or Infrastructure investments in the style of play you may be... If playing a Cluster style Map chances are you having the entire cluster to your self so you should not have to over do defense too much.

GLV is correct; it is best not to open early WARPS over your HW as it may facilitate the AIs invasion. Consider a scrub planet with a few Military Barracks for the cargo space, then pack on the defenses and Open your Warps there http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

With a Large and to some degree a Medium Cluster Style Map, you should be able to open most if not ALL Systems in your Cluster from Stellar Manipulation (1) certainly SM 2.
However, you will need SM 3 to get to the next Cluster and this is really when you have to be prepared, after all it may be your best friend the evil HIVE in the next Cluster http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

NOTE AI will have Inter Cluster Warp on average; in a AI no Bonus game (AFAIR):

Science and Engineering races about 8 to 16 Years.
Merchant Races about 15 to 20 Years.
Other Races depend on their Demeanor, the more violant the race the latter it will warp http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
Some Race are lethargic by nature and may warp when they feel like it (Abbidon for one)
Xenophobic and Neutrals do not open warps at all.

The AI is set up to Warp its Home Cluster First and then it will warp to other surrounding clusters much Later, except the Eee and some Engineering race that MAY just Bump the Stellar Techs back to back and warp out of there Home Clusters early and that may open your game right up http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

In addition, those serine Engineering races we like to pick on in the Standard games, you just may notice the MR HIDE in them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif in a NO-WARP GAME, so be on your guard.

Also please note for Xenos; though more in the way of Infrastructure. However, the Violent races, these races prefer Big Weapons and Hugh Attack Ships over the fancy Science Stellar stuff, so you just may open warps to Pandora�s Box all the way back to your Home System http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif no borg out there but there sure is other races just as mean.
Therefore, when going to a new Cluster you may consider having a pre Warp Hole Defensive Base Built to at least attempt to block the AI from rushing your rear Colonies with there fuel thirsty fleets. 100 mix of level I Sat- missiles and Level two Sats with good beam weapons along with great sensors and a few Pure PD sats, with this and a Carrier Fleet ready and reposition able; before entering each System in that new Cluster.

===

So when QBrigid and GLV say the AI gets Frisky if not darn out and out rude; with a low AI bonus game as opposed to NONE, this is why (((TIME))) you will have little to prepair in a low bonus game and priorities will get confused. So it is recommended all play there first few NO-WARP games with the default of NONE for AI Bonus.

[ September 04, 2003, 22:58: Message edited by: JLS ]

PsychoTechFreak

September 5th, 2003, 12:18 AM

Originally posted by JLS:
[QB] <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:
Longterm observations about 1.5 (realtime) years ago:

- galactic peace within the first 2 years, means no events from 2400.0 until 2401.9, never.
- the master planet is NEVER affected by high and catastrophic events, just by low and medium events
Definition "master planet": The planet that is selected at game start, first cursor, means in a one homeplanet game this would be the homeplanet. In a 10 planets game, the master planet would be immune from high/catastrophic events, the other 9 could be affected, this goes along also with system events, like star explosions.
 Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:
With multiple HW starts yes, but there was always one planet (master) never affected by high/catastrophic events. I checked this with a modded event.txt, just the 4 severities with a text popup for the severity which has taken place. Some thousand turns later, almost everything but the master HP has blown up.Oleg, what are your thoughts on this, I believe PTF is on the mark here, I do not recall ever having an event; even Plague for example let alone a High or catastrophic event on a Home World with default one Planet se4 gold start.

This information is needed and is important, in other words should we worry about the Home World,for its Population and Facilities when and if we re-categorize the levels of any Events.
<hr /></blockquote>JLS, I have seen this before your mail, but ... I am not sure any more, since Fyron obviously has seen high/catastrophic events on HPs.
This is what I recall:
PvK's proportions had a cultural trait "cursed" which should increase the chance for bad events. I performed some tests with this, and we observed that any minus or plus in the cultural settings about events have been effectles. The same has been done for the faith shrine and different good/bad settings - it was absolutely effectless. PvK has communicated the test results with Aaron, and a few weeks later we got a bugfix (which I can not find in the history at the moment, somewhen about gold patch 1 or 2). The findings on top have been side results of the tests, but it could be most likely that Aaron has changed more than just the event chance bug. So I think this should be tested again.
I have used a modded event file without real effects, just the severity popped up in the news window, so I was able to do my stats for every event severity. It could be possible that "events without real effects" also have a different behaviour than usual events, so it will not be an easy task which can be performed in a couple of minutes.

oleg

September 5th, 2003, 12:43 AM

I certainly remember that Fate Shrine' reduction of events chance has been asserted to be fixed in 1.84. It would also fix lucky/cursed trait, I think.

I can also confirm HW rebellion can happen - i observed it few times. Thanks God, to AI, not me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif . I also saw HW system destruction. But indeed, i never saw HW plague or planet destruction yet.

JLS

September 5th, 2003, 01:23 AM

Originally posted by PvK:
Hmm. The FQM I've seen tends to create vast quantities of asteroid fields, which the AI can't mine. Something to consider...

In the PBW game Adamant 0006, for instance, FQM is combined with Proportions mod, with the result that human players get practically infinite resources as long as they can build and maintain remote mining bases. The result is enormous fleets, and players complaining about what a chore it is to enter orders for each turn. AI bonus is High, but without remote mining, they are dwarfed.

In the Version of FQM used for that game, even the humans have a hard time navigating some of the systems with all the damaging sector types. I imagine the AI would tend to get rather stuck in them.

PvKThanks Pete, you are absolutely right. As it applies as a global overwrite, to the AI in AIC primarily.

Perhaps if we use a few of Fyron�s favorite quad setups from FQM

Modifie AIC SystemTypes, QuadrantTypes, StellarAbilityTypes, however not to change other then a few DATA files with no settings.file changes at all, it should be a easy port.

We can just tie this all into AI Campaigns {new game/Quadrant/Options menu}selection as we did with your unbelievably extraordinary Proportions maps for example:

Semi-Standard (my all time favorite)
RICH CLUSTERS
RICH SPIRAL ARM
Atypical Sidereal
Tri-Polar-wide
Ancient Bi-Polar

==============================

Example of probable FQM placement:

�~�
�~�
Atypical Sidereal
Tri-Polar-wide
FQM Standard Paradise
FQM Balanced Quadrant

>>> Below Ancient and FQM maps may be a little unfriendly for the AI. (in menu note)
Ancient
Ancient Bi-Polar
FQM Dense Mid-Life
FQM Star Heavy
FQM Asteroid fest
==============================
We can do this with Atrocities ST ship sets and only basic Star Trek stuff and with no (AST mod STUFF with out Atrocities individual say so).

The MOUNT ADD on - in conjunction with Proportion/AIC existing data will be tricky but in the end, this can be done as well. (good winter project)

Similar to the Strategic Fighter Module Add-on we did for AIC now�
All Add-ons will be included for AIC also menu driven (one menu or another that is) from with in AIC and the Players will never have to worry about overwrites. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Expect me to be knocking on your doors for some help with all http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif this

[ September 05, 2003, 14:48: Message edited by: JLS ]

JLS

September 5th, 2003, 02:17 AM

Originally posted by JLS:
Oleg, what are your thoughts on this, I believe PTF is on the mark here, I do not recall ever having an event; even Plague for example let alone a High or catastrophic event on a Home World with default one Planet se4 gold start.

This information is needed and is important, in other words should we worry about the Home World,for its Population and Facilities when and if we re-categorize the levels of any Events.
 Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:

JLS, I have seen this before your mail, but ... I am not sure any more, since Fyron obviously has seen high/catastrophic events on HPs.
This is what I recall:
PvK's proportions had a cultural trait "cursed" which should increase the chance for bad events. I performed some tests with this, and we observed that any minus or plus in the cultural settings about events have been effectles. The same has been done for the faith shrine and different good/bad settings - it was absolutely effectless. PvK has communicated the test results with Aaron, and a few weeks later we got a bugfix (which I can not find in the history at the moment, somewhen about gold patch 1 or 2). The findings on top have been side results of the tests, but it could be most likely that Aaron has changed more than just the event chance bug. So I think this should be tested again.
I have used a modded event file without real effects, just the severity popped up in the news window, so I was able to do my stats for every event severity. It could be possible that "events without real effects" also have a different behaviour than usual events, so it will not be an easy task which can be performed in a couple of minutes. Originally posted by oleg:
I certainly remember that Fate Shrine' reduction of events chance has been asserted to be fixed in 1.84. It would also fix lucky/cursed trait, I think.

I can also confirm HW rebellion can happen - i observed it few times. Thanks God, to AI, not me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif . I also saw HW system destruction. But indeed, i never saw HW plague or planet destruction yet.What I can say, it is understood from the players that with the average New game set up and with the past applicable events that the Home World for the Human Players is rarely scalded by a random event.

And that most - if not all Players, like the event occurrences as is. Regardless of a rare, if maybe possible and drastic event; that could and may occur on their Human Player Home World, that most have not seen as of yet.

========
However, the AI may be another case, all together.

This is what I propose; we leave status quo on the Event Occurrences even tweak a few more in, thanks to Olegs fix.

I will see what I can do to tweak the AI, so it may shun some events.

[ September 05, 2003, 14:28: Message edited by: JLS ]

JLS

September 5th, 2003, 02:42 AM

PTF if practical, can you humor me and try the EVENTS test for the Homeworld one more time, with opposite play style and one Home World, basically as below.

Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:
With multiple HW starts yes, but there was always one planet (master) never affected by high/catastrophic events. I checked this with a modded event.txt, just the 4 severities with a text popup for the severity which has taken place. Some thousand turns later, almost everything but the master HP has blown up. In other words can you try this in Simultaneous mode one HW.

Then a test in standard move with one HW.

This is only to test that some players have seen HW events and other have NEVER seen any, yet the default Events, settings and facilities file is the same with all players (use of Default files is assumed)

GLV and I always play Simultaneous mode and do not recall ever seeing any Human Player HW event that�s a lot of hours of play, with no recall of an HW event, how about anybody else?

[ September 05, 2003, 16:23: Message edited by: JLS ]

JLS

September 5th, 2003, 03:58 PM

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Oleg and GLV, have you received the Template for AIC Events v4.00, that I Emailed you the other day?

Not with respect to a test, just your thoughts, I need to move forward with this http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ September 05, 2003, 15:13: Message edited by: JLS ]

oleg

September 5th, 2003, 04:37 PM

No, I did not http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif

oleg

September 5th, 2003, 04:39 PM

But I tried the one you posted in "max.severity" topic. I think it is the same, right ?

So far I had ~100 turns game. Events chance low, max.severity high and so far nothing happend to me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

JLS

September 5th, 2003, 04:42 PM

Originally posted by oleg:
But I tried the one you posted in "max.severity" topic. I think it is the same, right ?

So far I had ~100 turns game. Events chance low, max.severity high and so far nothing happend to me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I never corrected your released file 1062224182.txt in that thread.

Anyway the new AIC v4.b1 Events.txt file; reordered and with a few more events is posted their now http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ September 05, 2003, 18:21: Message edited by: JLS ]

JLS

September 5th, 2003, 04:53 PM

This is the updated Events file for AIC.

If you wish to veiw >L-CLICK< (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1062772445.txt)

===

You may unzip this into your se4 Gold directory to update your AIC game.

EVENTS 4.1b just >L-CLICK< for download (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1062772298.zip)

This 41 kb Events file is in beta, GLV will test this in Simultaneous Mode; if anyone wishes to test this in Standard move mode, please let me know.

THANKS

John
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ September 05, 2003, 18:15: Message edited by: JLS ]

mottlee

September 5th, 2003, 08:33 PM

JLS, The prob with the mine sweepers is back, Had teh Eee go into a 100 ct mine field cleared all 100 so I took there emp to look and no sweepers in the fleet, will send when I get back to it.
I may just restart another http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

QBrigid

September 5th, 2003, 09:41 PM

Before you restart your game, Mottlee.
The way I understand the AI in AIC, it does not need just mine sweepers to clear a minefield.

Early in the game the AI takes high losses to mines. As the game turns pass the AI will research larger ships, the larger the ship when it is combined in a fleet the easer it is for it to clear the minefields, CVs have a extra bonus in clearing mines as well in AIC http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ September 05, 2003, 20:54: Message edited by: QBrigid ]

QBrigid

September 5th, 2003, 09:47 PM

Originally posted by JLS:
Research Stellar Manipulation ASAP but also research some weapons and at least Frigates. Mines may be of some value, since it should be around the Sixth to fourteenth year you open your first warp (Depending how Defensive, Offensive or Infrastructure investments in the style of play you may be... If playing a Cluster style Map chances are you having the entire cluster to your self so you should not have to over do defense too much.
[/QB]I have opened my first warp, as early as 3.1 Years and with a bonus of NONE for the AI you really do not have to worry about the AI when you are warping inside your Home Cluster http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ September 05, 2003, 20:50: Message edited by: QBrigid ]

QBrigid

September 5th, 2003, 09:47 PM

JLS, I play Simu games as well, no bad events happened on my Howe World, with the old evnts file

[ September 05, 2003, 20:49: Message edited by: QBrigid ]

JLS

September 5th, 2003, 11:27 PM

What QB posted is basically right on, in regards to AI Minesweeping.
In addition, with AI Campaign the larger the fleet, the less likely the AI will desire a minesweeper to be part of the composition for escort.

About, what turn where you in when the AI blew thru your Minefield. Do you recall the largest ships, was it made-up with any CVs and how large was the fleet?

Thanks for the input Mottlee, I will take a look at tweaking the AI Minesweeping for AIC v4.0

[ September 05, 2003, 22:33: Message edited by: JLS ]

mottlee

September 6th, 2003, 12:51 AM

Originally posted by QBrigid:
Before you restart your game, Mottlee.
The way I understand the AI in AIC, it does not need just mine sweepers to clear a minefield.

Early in the game the AI takes high losses to mines. As the game turns pass the AI will research larger ships, the larger the ship when it is combined in a fleet the easer it is for it to clear the minefields, CVs have a extra bonus in clearing mines as well in AIC http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif None of the ships have MS comp on them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif and there was no damage

Emailed game and plr files

[ September 05, 2003, 23:59: Message edited by: mottlee ]

JLS

September 6th, 2003, 01:15 AM

Thanks Mottlee, I will load it first thing in the mourning... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ September 06, 2003, 00:16: Message edited by: JLS ]

JLS

September 6th, 2003, 02:43 AM

posted June 09, 2003
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FYI for new AIC players. Regarding Minefields

Yes, most AI Players will blow thru a 100 Minefield with a large fleet �.

About when the AI Player starts fleeting Light Cruisers especially Carriers, you can expect the AI to clear Minefields 100%, when fleeted with a CV and escorts vessels . Just like, you would expect a good and capable Human Player opponent would.

That is not to say, the AI will not make mistakes or loose many a good ship; Scouting, or a few Capital ships returning to or from a yard or refuel base (as a Human player may)

===

Please keep this in mind; the higher the Computer Bonus the faster the AI will fleet Cruisers and Carriers. When this happens the less effective your minefields will become.

============================
EDIT:

Expected AI Minesweeping resuts when fleeted for AIC: v4.00.

100+ Scouts (will blow thru a 100 Minefield)
46+ Escorts
46+ Frigates
DD 20
CL 10
CA 4+
BC 3
BB 2+
DN 2
BS 1
Hvy BS 1
---
CVL 2+
CV 1+
Hvy CV 1
======================
Basicly 10 AI Destroyers and 6 AI Light Cruisers will clear 100 mines without with out a minesweeper.

This will be about a 50% decrease on CL and below. and 20% to 33% decrease for Cruiser and above.
======================
Please note in AIC v4.0 > The Human Players will now have the ability to destroy mines with Fighter Carriers.
In addition, for all Human Players: Minefields will have NO effect on any BaseShip, Heavy BaseShip or Heavy Carrier class vessel.

Scaled to the respective ships displacements; Dreadnoughts, Battleships, and Battle Cruisers will require MORE mines to damage or destroy them.

Good work and thanks for your continued help with the mines in AIC >Mottlee. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

[ September 06, 2003, 12:53: Message edited by: JLS ]

PsychoTechFreak

September 6th, 2003, 07:24 AM

Originally posted by JLS:
PTF if practical, can you humor me and try the EVENTS test for the Homeworld one more time, with opposite play style and one Home World, basically as below.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:
With multiple HW starts yes, but there was always one planet (master) never affected by high/catastrophic events. I checked this with a modded event.txt, just the 4 severities with a text popup for the severity which has taken place. Some thousand turns later, almost everything but the master HP has blown up. In other words can you try this in Simultaneous mode one HW.

Then a test in standard move with one HW.

This is only to test that some players have seen HW events and other have NEVER seen any, yet the default Events, settings and facilities file is the same with all players (use of Default files is assumed)

GLV and I always play Simultaneous mode and do not recall ever seeing any Human Player HW event that?s a lot of hours of play, with no recall of an HW event, how about anybody else?<hr /></blockquote>All right, I am going to set up a some hundred years batch sim with the 3.02 file today. Standart turn test would be very hard, because at least every single event stops the turn flow, and every single event has to be saved or noted. I think it should not make a difference, but let's see what happens in simultaneous first.

I certainly remember that Fate Shrine' reduction of events chance has been asserted to be fixed in 1.84. It would also fix lucky/cursed trait, I think. Yes, my memory is lacking about that. So it obviously has taken some more weeks than I remember.

oleg

September 6th, 2003, 12:56 PM

As a test, I started a game with myself and one neutral AI. Events chance high. I did' do anything except building few ships. Few years in the game, AI' HW rebelled - here is a save game:
1062845567.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1062845567.zip)

I saw AI' HW rebelled many, many times. With old file _very_ often, with a new file only very rare. I never had my HW rebelled though.

It is certain SE treats humans and AI HW differently. The disparity in events is just too obvious.

JLS

September 6th, 2003, 02:33 PM

Oleg, what game mode style are you playing when you find the posted events?

Oleg, if you could play your next game, to include the Events v4.b1 and play in standard mode. This will be extremely helpful in comparing with the Event beta tests starting this weekend.

--------------------------------------
You may unzip this 41 kb Events file into your se4 Gold directory to update your AIC game.

EVENTS 4.1b just >L-CLICK< for download (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1062772298.zip)

====

I only ask that all default AIC files be used in conjunction with the Events v4.b1 for those who wish to contribute to this test.

Allthough the settings below will be changed with AIC v4.0 this is the v3.xx default all is going with.
Event Percent Chance Low := 10
Event Percent Chance Medium := 20
Event Percent Chance High := 40

So far, there are 5 tests.

4 in Simu mode and 1 in standard mod, they will attempt to log all events that are Directly or Indirectly effect the Human Player and to Highlight events that happen on there Homeworld or within there Home system�

In regards to the AI, I have the fix or (partial remedy) already and this will be out in AIC v4.0.
As not to influence the tests I will not release the details on the AI Events Fix.

[ September 06, 2003, 13:38: Message edited by: JLS ]

oleg

September 6th, 2003, 02:37 PM

I am reluctant to invest into 300+ turn game with catastrophic events on - just too paranoid http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

But I had AI HW rebellions before in "normal" games with default files.

JLS

September 6th, 2003, 03:11 PM

Originally posted by oleg:
As a test, I started a game with myself and one neutral AI. Events chance high. I did' do anything except building few ships. Few years in the game, AI' HW rebelled Originally posted by oleg:
I am reluctant to invest into 300+ turn game with catastrophic events on - just too paranoid http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
But I had AI HW rebellions before in "normal" games with default files.]Oleg, I am unsure where you are going with this, or some of your text.

True I would be Paranoid if my Homeworld or any Human Players HW was lost but this was not the case or never has been. Is this not true � Oleg? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif

Is not the 4.b1 events file fine and working in the way it is intended; after all you did have the (((Events chance high)))?� http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

With our files now in the order as you suggested, does not the Max Severity options work as you stated, this is our impression?

Also the one AI home world that had this rebellion. What was its over all demise, did it defect to another Race or did it just mello out in time? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Are you using all the default and unmodified files AIC?
Now if you had the events with DEFAULT settings to low or medium and a Human Player lost his Homeworld to a bang; then yes I will be overly concerned. But this has not happened has it, a matter of fact the Human Player in his game play along oblivious to ANY other players wows, most of the time. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

The key to the Random events is to insure the enjoyment of the Human Players, to overcome some evolving events. The AI feelings are irrelevant http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Events that may occur to the AI players HW and actually the eyes of most Players like to see bad things happen to there opponents, in a game. Would you not agree?

The way AI Campaigns Event File was always programed: Is that the odds for ANY Planet or a System to be destroyed in AIC is by far deminished as opposed to Stock se4, and this is good, would you not agree Oleg? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

This AI in AIC is tough enough to get thru Events as it is and as it was� and again, it is rare that one event will affect the same AI repeatedly.
Actually, most Players say the AI in AIC is very tough overall.

Furthermore, with all the proposed AI Rebellion remedies, it may lesson the total of new Independent Races spawned that enhances Human Player game Play, and this will not be a good thing - Oleg, would it?

John
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ September 06, 2003, 18:25: Message edited by: JLS ]

JLS

September 6th, 2003, 04:30 PM

Oleg, it would be very helpful if you would answer some of the question the Players and I have been asking you, here and through out the few Last dozen or so Posts in this thread, that are with respect to your statements, when you can find the time.

Please be part of the solution http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Respectfully

John

[ September 06, 2003, 15:35: Message edited by: JLS ]

QBrigid

September 6th, 2003, 05:12 PM

Originally posted by JLS:
Furthermore, with all the proposed AI Rebellion remedies, it may lesson the total of new Independent Races spawned that enhances Human Player game Play, and this will not be a good thing - Oleg, would it?
JLS, the AIC and Adamants original Events file is and allways was fine, in fact both great. It appears you occupied most of your vacation placating this events max severity thing, when your intention was to release v4.0 this week.

Lets not throw out the baby with the wash.
I say, release AIC 4.0 with the tried & true 3.02 Events File, and move on.

[ September 06, 2003, 16:30: Message edited by: QBrigid ]

mottlee

September 6th, 2003, 05:12 PM

Originally posted by JLS:
posted June 09, 2003
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FYI for new AIC players. Regarding Minefields

Yes, most AI Players will blow thru a 100 Minefield with a large fleet ….

About when the AI Player starts fleeting Light Cruisers especially Carriers, you can expect the AI to clear Minefields 100%, when fleeted with a CV and escorts vessels . Just like, you would expect a good and capable Human Player opponent would.

That is not to say, the AI will not make mistakes or loose many a good ship; Scouting, or a few Capital ships returning to or from a yard or refuel base (as a Human player may)

===

Please keep this in mind; the higher the Computer Bonus the faster the AI will fleet Cruisers and Carriers. When this happens the less effective your minefields will become.

============================
EDIT:

Expected AI Minesweeping resuts when fleeted for AIC: v4.00.

100+ Scouts (will blow thru a 100 Minefield)
46+ Escorts
46+ Frigates
DD 20
CL 10
CA 4+
BC 3
BB 2+
DN 2
BS 1
Hvy BS 1
---
CVL 2+
CV 1+
Hvy CV 1
======================
Basicly 10 AI Destroyers and 6 AI Light Cruisers will clear 100 mines without with out a minesweeper.

This will be about a 50% decrease on CL and below. and 20% to 33% decrease for Cruiser and above.
======================
Please note in AIC v4.0 > The Human Players will now have the ability to destroy mines with Fighter Carriers.
In addition, for all Human Players: Minefields will have NO effect on any BaseShip, Heavy BaseShip or Heavy Carrier class vessel.

Scaled to the respective ships displacements; Dreadnoughts, Battleships, and Battle Cruisers will require MORE mines to damage or destroy them.

Good work and thanks for your continued help with the mines in AIC >Mottlee. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif OK I understand that they can/will go through a mine field but not without taking some hits to some ships

QBrigid

September 6th, 2003, 05:15 PM

Originally posted by JLS:
Thanks for the file and your help with the mines, Mottlee http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

----------------

As a result from Mottlees continued help with balancing AIC Minesweeping over the Last few months, there will now be a reductions in the AI minesweeping abilities totaled to be about 30% over all with significant reductions applying to the early and early-mid game.

Furthermore, Please note in AIC v4.0 > The Human Players will now have the ability to destroy mines with Fighter Carriers.
In addition, for all Human Players: Minefields will have NO effect on any BaseShip, Heavy BaseShip or Heavy Carrier class vessel. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Scaled to the respective ships displacements; Dreadnoughts, Battleships, and Battle Cruisers will require MORE mines to damage or destroy Human Player Capital Ships http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Nice job with the Minesweeping guys, I like it.

[ September 06, 2003, 16:16: Message edited by: QBrigid ]

JLS

September 6th, 2003, 06:18 PM

Originally posted by mottlee:
Expected AI Minesweeping resuts when fleeted for AIC: v4.00.

100+ Scouts (will blow thru a 100 Minefield)
46+ Escorts
46+ Frigates
DD 20
CL 10
CA 4+
BC 3
BB 2+
DN 2
BS 1
Hvy BS 1
---
CVL 2+
CV 1+
Hvy CV 1
=========================
OK I understand that they can/will go through a mine field but not without taking some hits to some shipsExactly,
If the AI was to enter your 100 minefield with a feet of 99 scouts, as it may be with base se4(ALL 99 AI SHIPS MAY BE LOST) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif
It would be true with 40 escorts or 40 frigates (ALL AI SHIPS WILL BE LOST)
The same would be true if the AI entered a 100 minefield with 15 destroyers (all destroyers will be lost)

Furthermore if the AI was to enter your 100 mine field with numbers closer to the above chart, for example a fleet of 17 or 18 destroyers many of the AI destroyer will be damaged or destroyed. However, some will get thru.

However, if fleet of 20 or 21 Destroyers was to enter a 100 minefield, then yes all will get thru with little to no damage. Picture it, as total armaments versus the mines if you will http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

-------------------------------------------------

The same applies to a mixed fleet of 8 Destroyers and 4 Light Cruisers, as it may be with base se4 (ALL SHIPS WILL BE DESTROYED) and this would include all TROOPS on any AI assault ships http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

If the AI enters a 100 minefield with a fleet of 10 destroyers and 4 Light Cruisers some may get thru but most will be damaged or destroyed and this would include most TROOPS on any AI assault ships

However an AI fleet of 12 destroyers and 5 Light Cruisers will get thru and will maintain the integrity of the troops and there assault ships http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif
=================================================
In short and to recap:

1: Approximately any quantity or make up; at 70% or below the chart all (The AI ships will be lost forever) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif
2: Approximately any quantity or make up above 70% but less then 100% of the chart (The AI will take damage and destruction, but some AI ships MAY get thru) depending on the proximity to charts 100%.
3: Any quantity or make up above 100% of the chart, the AI will clear the Minefield with little to no damage. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

This will also apply for Human Players to some extent with AIC 4.0 at previous post. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

With AIC, the closer you reach Baseships and Heavy Carriers >mines are akin to throwing stones at today�s tanks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ September 06, 2003, 18:48: Message edited by: JLS ]

JLS

September 6th, 2003, 07:03 PM

There are several options to adding Minesweeper support for the Human Player.

~If possible add this to the Plate Armor by Consulting with PVK on the best way.
~Add it to other Components.
~And/Or as I did with the AI in the Balance Module.

What are your thoughts?

[ September 06, 2003, 18:30: Message edited by: JLS ]

Fyron

September 6th, 2003, 07:33 PM

I certainly remember that Fate Shrine' reduction of events chance has been asserted to be fixed in 1.84. It would also fix lucky/cursed trait, I think. I am fairly certain that it does not work. I ran some tests and had the same number of events hit me with or without it. I even tried modding it to 100% reduction of event chances, but had 0 change. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

JLS

September 6th, 2003, 07:33 PM

Originally posted by QBrigid:
JLS, the AIC and Adamants original Events file is and allways was fine, in fact both great. It appears you occupied most of your vacation placating this events max severity thing, when your intention was to release v4.0 this week.

Lets not throw out the baby with the wash.
I say, release AIC 4.0 with the tried & true 3.02 Events File, and move on.Point taken, and thanks QB

JLS

September 6th, 2003, 07:35 PM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I certainly remember that Fate Shrine' reduction of events chance has been asserted to be fixed in 1.84. It would also fix lucky/cursed trait, I think. I am fairly certain that it does not work. I ran some tests and had the same number of events hit me with or without it. I even tried modding it to 100% reduction of event chances, but had 0 change. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif <hr /></blockquote>Fyron I agree with you

PsychoTechFreak

September 6th, 2003, 07:38 PM

Originally posted by oleg:
I am reluctant to invest into 300+ turn game with catastrophic events on - just too paranoid http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

But I had AI HW rebellions before in "normal" games with default files.Oleg, if you use the event file of AIC (I guess so) search for the first entry of population rebel. It is a medium event. Now, this is really a kind of mess what I see with this event file. It will be hard to observe the severity of an event from the texts. It looks like I have to mod the event file again to be sure. Medium and Low severities I have seen for the homeworlds also, just no high/catastrophic ones like planet explosions usually are set to. Maybe the different observations of the community result from different severity moddings? But maybe there is a difference between human and AI, let's see. I hope the one human player that I have to set on complete AI on is still handled as a human. I changed the high event chance to 500...
And I guess I have to start again with a clean events.txt.

Fyron

September 6th, 2003, 07:40 PM

Originally posted by QBrigid:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JLS:
Furthermore, with all the proposed AI Rebellion remedies, it may lesson the total of new Independent Races spawned that enhances Human Player game Play, and this will not be a good thing - Oleg, would it?
JLS, the AIC and Adamants original Events file is and allways was fine, in fact both great. It appears you occupied most of your vacation placating this events max severity thing, when your intention was to release v4.0 this week.<hr /></blockquote>At any rate, a reorganized events file is nicer to look through. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Reordering them can't have any bad effects, so why not just use the reordered file, as the work is already done?

PsychoTechFreak

September 6th, 2003, 07:49 PM

Originally posted by JLS:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I certainly remember that Fate Shrine' reduction of events chance has been asserted to be fixed in 1.84. It would also fix lucky/cursed trait, I think. I am fairly certain that it does not work. I ran some tests and had the same number of events hit me with or without it. I even tried modding it to 100% reduction of event chances, but had 0 change. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif <hr /></blockquote>Fyron I agree with you<hr /></blockquote>Fyron, JLS, one of the important things about this (Aaron has confirmed it). You can not test the event chance with one player because the events are distributed over the races. If you have got 100 events in a game with two players and both of them have no positive or neg. modifiers (like fake shrine) to event chances, then every one gets about 50. One player would get 100 even with lucky trait, because there is no other player who attrackts the other events. If one race has got lucky trait, the other is cursed, then the distribution would be different (I am not good in maths now) , e.g. 40/60 or whatever.

JLS

September 6th, 2003, 07:51 PM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by QBrigid:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JLS:
Furthermore, with all the proposed AI Rebellion remedies, it may lesson the total of new Independent Races spawned that enhances Human Player game Play, and this will not be a good thing - Oleg, would it?
JLS, the AIC and Adamants original Events file is and allways was fine, in fact both great. It appears you occupied most of your vacation placating this events max severity thing, when your intention was to release v4.0 this week.<hr /></blockquote>At any rate, a reorganized events file is nicer to look through. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Reordering them can't have any bad effects, so why not just use the reordered file, as the work is already done?<hr /></blockquote>Agreed, and already done as well. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Fyron

September 6th, 2003, 07:59 PM

Hmm... so I need a guinea pig...

JLS

September 6th, 2003, 08:02 PM

Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:
Fyron, JLS, one of the important things about this (Aaron has confirmed it). You can not test the event chance with one player because the events are distributed over the races. If you have got 100 events in a game with two players and both of them have no positive or neg. modifiers (like fake shrine) to event chances, then every one gets about 50. One player would get 100 even with lucky trait, because there is no other player who attrackts the other events. If one race has got lucky trait, the other is cursed, then the distribution would be different (I am not good in maths now) , e.g. 40/60 or whatever.[/QB]Thanks PTF, I beleive I understand what you are presenting. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

----
This may be of the wall PTF, but will the Event engine see this as teams.

Human team and AI team...

For example if there was 2 Human Players, hence=50/50 and 5 AI players hence 20% over each AI.

Please further clarify: 1 Human 5 AI players, how would the calculations be in your opinion. Please to not equate Lucky and /or Cursed.
.

PsychoTechFreak

September 6th, 2003, 08:11 PM

Originally posted by JLS:

Please further clarify: 1 Human 5 AI players, how would the calculations be in your opinion. Please to not equate Lucky and /or Cursed.
.JLS, I am sorry, could you repeat that Last sentence in other words, please?

The events are distributed equally if no race has any modifier. There should be no difference between human and AI.

Do you think of a simulation without event chance modifiers for all of the races? That means, I would have to use non-religious races and I would have to remove any cultural traits about event chance modifiers.

[ September 06, 2003, 19:13: Message edited by: PsychoTechFreak ]

JLS

September 6th, 2003, 08:13 PM

Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:
Oleg, if you use the event file of AIC (I guess so) search for the first entry of population rebel. It is a medium event.PTF, the way I understood Oleg he is using (HIS other Event file and with HIGH Chance)

Originally posted by oleg:
But I tried the one you posted in "max.severity" topic. I think it is the same, right ?
----------------------------
JLS=I never corrected your released file 1062224182.txt (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1062224182.txt) in that thread.Not AIC 4.b1 Event.

And yes in 4.b1 there is one Medium:
population rebel
Close Warp

Now this is a one in 40 Chance that a one of these will be chose (IF) Medium is the MAX http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

The odds would be NIL if Max at LOW and NONE.
The odds are even far different at high or default.

Would you not agree, PTF?

In regards to Close Warp the Medium Event WILL be removed. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ September 06, 2003, 19:25: Message edited by: JLS ]

PsychoTechFreak

September 6th, 2003, 08:16 PM

Originally posted by JLS:
PTF, the way I understood Oleg he is using (HIS other Event file and with HIGH Chance) Not AIC 4.b1 Event.

Yes, but I am using 3.02 and the first rebel entry is a medium already. There are more rebel entries later on with high severity.

EDIT: I will create my own events.txt for the test. Otherwise I can not certainly observe the severity of an event from your modded files.

[ September 06, 2003, 19:18: Message edited by: PsychoTechFreak ]

JLS

September 6th, 2003, 08:55 PM

OK, but please remember, we Human Handle rebellions very efficiently by sending ships to orbit that planet.

The AI HomeWorlds already have safeguards and current remedies in AIC. With the Culture Center and the AI Systems Facility Combined for its HW
At AI Players Colonies outside its Homesystem it has a progressive improvement, as the AI Sys Facility is upgraded. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif See references below.

I believe if you lesson Rebellion Events you lesson the Chance that Independent Races will be Spawned at the AI Players Colonies. What are your thoughts on this PTF?

Also perment removal of any Rebellion Event may inflict a death sentence from QBrigid http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

However PTF, I understand your concern when it is located in MEDIUM http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

===========
Reference:

Name := Cultural Center
Description := The developed homeland of a space-age civilization, roughly continental in size, including hundreds of cities, parks, infrastructure, arts, religions, sciences, industry, etc.
Facility Group := Zenith Urban Center
Facility Family := 54
Roman Numeral := 0
Restrictions := None
Pic Num := 10
Cost Minerals := 300000
Cost Organics := 200000
Cost Radioactives := 200000
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := AI Balance Tech
Tech Level Req 1 := 1
Number of Abilities := 20
Ability 1 Type := Solar Resource Generation - Minerals
Ability 1 Descr := Population Center...
Ability 1 Val 1 := 1125
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Solar Resource Generation - Organics
Ability 2 Descr :=
Ability 2 Val 1 := 350
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Ability 3 Type := Solar Resource Generation - Radioactives
Ability 3 Descr :=
Ability 3 Val 1 := 300
Ability 3 Val 2 := 0
Ability 4 Type := Point Generation - Research
Ability 4 Descr :=
Ability 4 Val 1 := 700
Ability 4 Val 2 := 0
Ability 5 Type := Point Generation - Intelligence
Ability 5 Descr :=
Ability 5 Val 1 := 150
Ability 5 Val 2 := 0
Ability 6 Type := Cargo Storage
Ability 6 Descr :=
Ability 6 Val 1 := 15000
Ability 6 Val 2 := 0
Ability 7 Type := Change Bad Event Chance � System ( I may increase this in 4.0)
Ability 7 Descr :=
Ability 7 Val 1 := 0
Ability 7 Val 2 := 0
Ability 8 Type := Resource Storage - Mineral
Ability 8 Descr :=
Ability 8 Val 1 := 5000
Ability 8 Val 2 := 0
Ability 9 Type := Resource Storage - Organics
Ability 9 Descr :=
Ability 9 Val 1 := 5000
Ability 9 Val 2 := 0
Ability 10 Type := Resource Storage - Radioactives
Ability 10 Descr :=
Ability 10 Val 1 := 5000
Ability 10 Val 2 := 0
Ability 11 Type := Component Repair
Ability 11 Descr :=
Ability 11 Val 1 := 1
Ability 11 Val 2 := 0
Ability 12 Type := Self-Destruct
Ability 12 Descr :=
Ability 12 Val 1 := 0
Ability 12 Val 2 := 0
Ability 13 Type := Change Population Happiness � System
Ability 13 Descr :=
Ability 13 Val 1 := 6 (This is a Huge Benefit and is equal to a small fleet over planet)
Ability 13 Val 2 := 0
Ability 14 Type := Stop Nebulae Creator
Ability 14 Descr :=
Ability 14 Val 1 := 0
Ability 14 Val 2 := 0
Ability 15 Type := Stop Black Hole Creator
Ability 15 Descr :=
Ability 15 Val 1 := 0
Ability 15 Val 2 := 0
Ability 16 Type := Stop Star Destroyer
Ability 16 Descr :=
Ability 16 Val 1 := 0
Ability 16 Val 2 := 0
Ability 17 Type := Resource Generation - Minerals
Ability 17 Descr :=
Ability 17 Val 1 := 50
Ability 17 Val 2 := 0
Ability 18 Type := Resource Generation - Organics
Ability 18 Descr :=
Ability 18 Val 1 := 25
Ability 18 Val 2 := 0
Ability 19 Type := Resource Generation - Radioactives
Ability 19 Descr :=
Ability 19 Val 1 := 55
Ability 19 Val 2 := 0
Ability 20 Type := Phased Shield Generation
Ability 20 Descr :=
Ability 20 Val 1 := 1000
Ability 20 Val 2 := 0

Name := Upgrade to Space Dock.
Description := Should Upgrade to Space Dock for AI Balance integrety.
Facility Group := Resupply
Facility Family := 8
Roman Numeral := 0
Restrictions := None
Pic Num := 35
Cost Minerals := 8000
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 0
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := AI Balance Tech
Tech Level Req 1 := 1
Number of Abilities := 7
Ability 1 Type := Plague Prevention - System
Ability 1 Descr := Can generate unlimited supplies each turn for ships.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 3
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Supply Generation
Ability 2 Descr :=
Ability 2 Val 1 := 0
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Ability 3 Type := Cargo Storage
Ability 3 Descr :=
Ability 3 Val 1 := 2000
Ability 3 Val 2 := 0
Ability 4 Type := Self-Destruct
Ability 4 Descr :=
Ability 4 Val 1 := 0
Ability 4 Val 2 := 0
Ability 5 Type := Modify Reproduction - System
Ability 5 Descr :=
Ability 5 Val 1 := 20
Ability 5 Val 2 := 0
Ability 6 Type := Fleet Training - System
Ability 6 Descr :=
Ability 6 Val 1 := 1
Ability 6 Val 2 := 3
Ability 7 Type := Phased Shield Generation
Ability 7 Descr :=
Ability 7 Val 1 := 300
Ability 7 Val 2 := 0

Name := Upgrade to Space Dock.
Description := Should Upgrade to Space Dock for AI Balance integrety..
Facility Group := Resupply
Facility Family := 8
Roman Numeral := 1
Restrictions := None
Pic Num := 35
Cost Minerals := 6000
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 0
Number of Tech Req := 2
Tech Area Req 1 := AI Balance Tech
Tech Level Req 1 := 1
Tech Area Req 2 := Military Science
Tech Level Req 2 := 2
Number of Abilities := 11
Ability 1 Type := Plague Prevention - System
Ability 1 Descr := Can generate unlimited supplies each turn for ships.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 4
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Spaceport
Ability 2 Descr :=
Ability 2 Val 1 := 0
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Ability 3 Type := Supply Generation
Ability 3 Descr :=
Ability 3 Val 1 := 0
Ability 3 Val 2 := 0
Ability 4 Type := Cargo Storage
Ability 4 Descr :=
Ability 4 Val 1 := 3000
Ability 4 Val 2 := 0
Ability 5 Type := Planet - Change Population Happiness
Ability 5 Descr :=
Ability 5 Val 1 := -1
Ability 5 Val 2 := 0
Ability 6 Type := Self-Destruct
Ability 6 Descr :=
Ability 6 Val 1 := 0
Ability 6 Val 2 := 0
Ability 7 Type := Modify Reproduction - System
Ability 7 Descr :=
Ability 7 Val 1 := 5
Ability 7 Val 2 := 0
Ability 8 Type := Fleet Training - System
Ability 8 Descr :=
Ability 8 Val 1 := 1
Ability 8 Val 2 := 3
Ability 9 Type := Ship Training - System
Ability 9 Descr :=
Ability 9 Val 1 := 2
Ability 9 Val 2 := 6
Ability 10 Type := Stop Close Warp Point
Ability 10 Descr :=
Ability 10 Val 1 := 0
Ability 10 Val 2 := 0
Ability 11 Type := Phased Shield Generation
Ability 11 Descr :=
Ability 11 Val 1 := 500
Ability 11 Val 2 := 0

Name := Upgrade to Space Dock.
Description := Should Upgrade to Space Dock for AI Balance integrety.,
Facility Group := Resupply
Facility Family := 8
Roman Numeral := 2
Restrictions := None
Pic Num := 35
Cost Minerals := 5000
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 0
Number of Tech Req := 2
Tech Area Req 1 := AI Balance Tech
Tech Level Req 1 := 1
Tech Area Req 2 := Advanced Military Science
Tech Level Req 2 := 1
Number of Abilities := 11
Ability 1 Type := Plague Prevention - System
Ability 1 Descr := Can generate unlimited supplies each turn for ships.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 5
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Spaceport
Ability 2 Descr :=
Ability 2 Val 1 := 0
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Ability 3 Type := Supply Generation
Ability 3 Descr :=
Ability 3 Val 1 := 0
Ability 3 Val 2 := 0
Ability 4 Type := Cargo Storage
Ability 4 Descr :=
Ability 4 Val 1 := 4000
Ability 4 Val 2 := 0
Ability 5 Type := Planet - Change Population Happiness
Ability 5 Descr :=
Ability 5 Val 1 := -2
Ability 5 Val 2 := 0
Ability 6 Type := Self-Destruct
Ability 6 Descr :=
Ability 6 Val 1 := 0
Ability 6 Val 2 := 0
Ability 7 Type := Modify Reproduction - System
Ability 7 Descr :=
Ability 7 Val 1 := 2
Ability 7 Val 2 := 0
Ability 8 Type := Fleet Training - System
Ability 8 Descr :=
Ability 8 Val 1 := 1
Ability 8 Val 2 := 5
Ability 9 Type := Ship Training - System
Ability 9 Descr :=
Ability 9 Val 1 := 2
Ability 9 Val 2 := 10
Ability 10 Type := Stop Close Warp Point
Ability 10 Descr :=
Ability 10 Val 1 := 0
Ability 10 Val 2 := 0
Ability 11 Type := Phased Shield Generation
Ability 11 Descr :=
Ability 11 Val 1 := 750
Ability 11 Val 2 := 0

Name := Upgrade to Space Dock.
Description := Should Upgrade to Space Dock for AI Balance integrety,,
Facility Group := Resupply
Facility Family := 8
Roman Numeral := 3
Restrictions := None
Pic Num := 35
Cost Minerals := 3000
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 0
Number of Tech Req := 2
Tech Area Req 1 := AI Balance Tech
Tech Level Req 1 := 1
Tech Area Req 2 := Advanced Military Science
Tech Level Req 2 := 2
Number of Abilities := 12
Ability 1 Type := Plague Prevention - System
Ability 1 Descr := Can generate unlimited supplies each turn for ships.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 5
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Spaceport
Ability 2 Descr :=
Ability 2 Val 1 := 0
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Ability 3 Type := Supply Generation
Ability 3 Descr :=
Ability 3 Val 1 := 0
Ability 3 Val 2 := 0
Ability 4 Type := Cargo Storage
Ability 4 Descr :=
Ability 4 Val 1 := 5000
Ability 4 Val 2 := 0
Ability 5 Type := Planet - Change Population Happiness
Ability 5 Descr :=
Ability 5 Val 1 := -3
Ability 5 Val 2 := 0
Ability 6 Type := Self-Destruct
Ability 6 Descr :=
Ability 6 Val 1 := 0
Ability 6 Val 2 := 0
Ability 7 Type := Modify Reproduction - System
Ability 7 Descr :=
Ability 7 Val 1 := 1
Ability 7 Val 2 := 0
Ability 8 Type := Fleet Training - System
Ability 8 Descr :=
Ability 8 Val 1 := 2
Ability 8 Val 2 := 8
Ability 9 Type := Ship Training - System
Ability 9 Descr :=
Ability 9 Val 1 := 2
Ability 9 Val 2 := 15
Ability 10 Type := Stop Close Warp Point
Ability 10 Descr :=
Ability 10 Val 1 := 0
Ability 10 Val 2 := 0
Ability 11 Type := Stop Open Warp Point
Ability 11 Descr :=
Ability 11 Val 1 := 0
Ability 11 Val 2 := 0
Ability 12 Type := Phased Shield Generation
Ability 12 Descr :=
Ability 12 Val 1 := 1000
Ability 12 Val 2 := 0

Name := Space Dock
Description := A space port and supply hub combined in one large-scale facility.
Facility Group := Resupply
Facility Family := 8
Roman Numeral := 20
Restrictions := None
Pic Num := 97
Cost Minerals := 5000
Cost Organics := 4000
Cost Radioactives := 8000
Number of Tech Req := 2
Tech Area Req 1 := Human Balance Tech
Tech Level Req 1 := 1
Tech Area Req 2 := Resupply
Tech Level Req 2 := 1
Number of Abilities := 3
Ability 1 Type := Spaceport
Ability 1 Descr := Includes spaceports with unlimited supplies.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 0
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Supply Generation
Ability 2 Descr :=
Ability 2 Val 1 := 0
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Ability 3 Type := Cargo Storage
Ability 3 Descr := Provides 400 extra unit spaces on a planet.
Ability 3 Val 1 := 400
Ability 3 Val 2 := 0

[ September 06, 2003, 20:20: Message edited by: JLS ]

JLS

September 6th, 2003, 09:06 PM

Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:
The events are distributed equally if no race has any modifier. There should be no difference between human and AI.
Then why is that Oleg feel the AI is handled differantly? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif

Is this due to the test procedure he is using, that you mentioned.

Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:
Fyron, JLS, one of the important things about this (Aaron has confirmed it). You can not test the event chance with one player because the events are distributed over the races.==============================

Do you think of a simulation without event chance modifiers for all of the races? That means, I would have to use non-religious races and I would have to remove any cultural traits about event chance modifiers.I agree on all non-religious.
The AI HW Cultural center is allready zero.

Please, if you are also testing or make note of Max. Severity, then please use Events 4.b1 to base remarks. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

EVENTS 4.1b just >L-CLICK< for download (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1062772298.zip)

[ September 06, 2003, 20:18: Message edited by: JLS ]

JLS

September 6th, 2003, 09:10 PM

opps BRB

[ September 06, 2003, 20:18: Message edited by: JLS ]

Fyron

September 6th, 2003, 09:19 PM

Ability 5 Type := Planet - Change Population Happiness
Ability 5 Descr :=
Ability 5 Val 1 := -1
Ability 5 Val 2 := 0 You do realize this is mean, right? Making their planets unhappy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif Also, if ANY happiness bonus facility is in the system, this negative value will be superceded. Only the best happiness bonus is used. Negatives for the planet-only one do work (unlike the system-wide one), but they are easily made null.

JLS

September 6th, 2003, 09:31 PM

Excellent Fyron
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Ability 5 Type := Planet - Change Population Happiness
Ability 5 Descr :=
Ability 5 Val 1 := -1
Ability 5 Val 2 := 0
You do realize this is mean, right? Making their planets unhappy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif
Yes as it applies to AI Colonies and helps with the new Race spawn.

However, if you examine the AI Colonies, in most case the majority is Jubilant

Also, if ANY happiness bonus facility is in the system, this negative value will be superceded. Only the best happiness bonus is used.
As with what you say; as it applies to the AI Homeworld, but also as the AI upgrades the sys fac later in the game, it also has many fixed bases and Ships in HS and HW to counter act the happiness fall as the game progresses for the home world.

Negatives for the planet-only one do work (unlike the system-wide one), but they are easily made null
Please elaborate .

[ September 06, 2003, 20:49: Message edited by: JLS ]

Fyron

September 6th, 2003, 09:58 PM

For the Happiness facility ability (both of them), only the best, most positive value is used. They DO NOT stack in any way. If you have a facility with -10 and one with +1, the planet will get a +1 bonus to happiness each turn. The -10 is essentially ignored. This sucks, but it is how it works. Unlike most abilities, the planet and system happiness ones seem interconnected in that they do not function independantly. Only the best of all facility happiness bonuses to affect a planet will be in effect. A -1 planet happiness and +1 system happiness facility will net in +1 happiness bonus for the planet, not 0. At least, this is how it seemed to work when I tested it a long time ago. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

PsychoTechFreak

September 6th, 2003, 10:02 PM

However PTF, I understand your concern when it is located in MEDIUM It is not a concern, "I am a machine". It is just hard to evaluate the correct severity stats in case of the text Messages display the same/similar message for a medium event and an event with high severity.

quote: Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:
The events are distributed equally if no race has any modifier. There should be no difference between human and AI.
Then why is that Oleg feel the AI is handled differantly? [[Confused]]

Is this due to the test procedure he is using, that you mentioned. We are talking about different things. Oleg's statement is about "it looks like the AI races are effected by high/catastrophic events on HWs while humans seem to be save". Which hopefully will be answered by the simulation.
But I was just talking about the overall distribution of events (20% of all events for human race 1, and 20% for everyone of the 4 AIs).

JLS

September 6th, 2003, 10:03 PM

I have just loaded an AIC Players old 463.7 turn v3.02 simu game up now... With a total of what apears to be 6 spawned AI Races, definetly 4 for sure. Other two dead.

Tolytan (basic eng race) in 1st with 76 planets - The Home world is Jubulant... ALL Colonies but 7 jubulant, those 7 are happy...

Human Player is second Place...

I will add oter notes as I look at the file more

[ September 06, 2003, 21:18: Message edited by: JLS ]

Fyron

September 6th, 2003, 10:09 PM

Also, I should point out that no matter how high I set the happiness penalty, I could never make a facility drop the planet's happiness level below Indifferent. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

JLS

September 6th, 2003, 10:11 PM

Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:
It is just hard to evaluate the correct severity stats in case of the text Messages display the same/similar message for a medium event and an event with high severity.
Agreed, I have them divided into 4 separate folders per Class low, med, Hi and Cat.
If you like I can upload this to you.

Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:
We are talking about different things. Oleg's statement is about "it looks like the AI races are effected by high/catastrophic events on HWs while humans seem to be save". Which hopefully will be answered by the simulation.
But I was just talking about the overall distribution of events (20% of all events for human race 1, and 20% for everyone of the 4 AIs).Understood http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Loser

September 6th, 2003, 10:12 PM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Also, I should point out that no matter how high I set the happiness penalty, I could never make a facility drop the planet's happiness level below Indifferent. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif What if you lower the enviromental conditions of the planet as well?

Fyron

September 6th, 2003, 10:14 PM

Environmental conditions have NO affect on happiness whatsoever. They never have (save maybe in an early beta, which I can not speak for, not being a beta tester http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ). The manual is misleading about this. Go make a map with some planets with 0 conditions (deadly), and colonize them. They dont get angry over it. Their happiness will slowly decrease over time due to natural per turn decreases, but that is all. Make some Optimal and some Mild planets as base cases.

[ September 06, 2003, 21:15: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

JLS

September 6th, 2003, 10:15 PM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Also, I should point out that no matter how high I set the happiness penalty, I could never make a facility drop the planet's happiness level below Indifferent. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif Agreed. Without ships or bases it makes process of recovering from as you say Indifferent much harder for the AI. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Fyron

September 6th, 2003, 10:16 PM

Unless they build ANY facility with a positive happiness bonus, in which case the negative of those facilities is ignored.

PsychoTechFreak

September 6th, 2003, 10:18 PM

Agreed, I have them divided into 4 separate folders per Class low, med, Hi and Cat.
If you like I can upload this to you. Better would be a title which reflects the severity in every text message of the event:

Type := Planet - Population Rebel
Severity := Medium
Effect Amount := 1
Message To := Owner
Num Messages := 1
Message Title 1 := Rebellion
Message 1 := MEDIUM EVENT The population of [%PlanetName] has rebelled against us and formed a new nation.
Picture := PopulationAngry
Time Till Completion := 0
Num Start Messages := 0

See why?

EDIT: I have downloaded your 4.1b something eventfile. I am going to change the high/catastrophic events with the text changes above. That should do the trick.

[ September 06, 2003, 21:23: Message edited by: PsychoTechFreak ]

JLS

September 6th, 2003, 10:20 PM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Unless they build ANY facility with a positive happiness bonus, in which case the negative of those facilities is ignored.Agreed, thanks Fyron http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

JLS

September 6th, 2003, 10:21 PM

Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Agreed, I have them divided into 4 separate folders per Class low, med, Hi and Cat.
If you like I can upload this to you. Better would be a title which reflects the severity in every text message of the event:

Type := Planet - Population Rebel
Severity := Medium
Effect Amount := 1
Message To := Owner
Num Messages := 1
Message Title 1 := Rebellion
Message 1 := MEDIUM EVENT The population of [%PlanetName] has rebelled against us and formed a new nation.
Picture := PopulationAngry
Time Till Completion := 0
Num Start Messages := 0

See why?<hr /></blockquote>I like it, concider it done http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ September 06, 2003, 21:30: Message edited by: JLS ]

Loser

September 6th, 2003, 10:22 PM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Environmental conditions have NO affect on happiness whatsoever.Ack! That hurts. Do environmental conditions do anything?

PsychoTechFreak

September 6th, 2003, 10:26 PM

Originally posted by JLS:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Agreed, I have them divided into 4 separate folders per Class low, med, Hi and Cat.
If you like I can upload this to you. Better would be a title which reflects the severity in every text message of the event:

Type := Planet - Population Rebel
Severity := Medium
Effect Amount := 1
Message To := Owner
Num Messages := 1
Message Title 1 := Rebellion
Message 1 := MEDIUM EVENT The population of [%PlanetName] has rebelled against us and formed a new nation.
Picture := PopulationAngry
Time Till Completion := 0
Num Start Messages := 0

See why?<hr /></blockquote>I like it, concider it done http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif <hr /></blockquote>JLS, wait...

EDIT: I have downloaded your 4.1b something eventfile. I am going to change the high/catastrophic events with the text changes above. That should do the trick.

Is it ok with you? I mean, we just need the high/catastrophic titles, right?

JLS

September 6th, 2003, 10:29 PM

Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:
JLS, wait...

EDIT: I have downloaded your 4.1b something eventfile. I am going to change the high/catastrophic events with the text changes above. That should do the trick.

Is it ok with you? I mean, we just need the high/catastrophic titles, right?[/QB]PsychoTechFreak, I fully trust your judgement, you should know that.

[ September 06, 2003, 22:42: Message edited by: JLS ]

JLS

September 6th, 2003, 10:31 PM

PTF, but why change text body from:

Type := Planet - Population Rebel
Severity := Medium
Effect Amount := 1
Message To := Owner
Num Messages := 1
Message Title 1 := Uprising
Message 1 := Insurrectionary forces have overthrown the local Government of [%PlanetName].
Picture := PlanetRevolts
Time Till Completion := 2
Num Start Messages := 1
Start Message Title 1 := Insurrectionary forces
Start Message 1 := New Flash....Uprising is in progress on [%PlanetName]. The local government is seeking Miltary aid.

And not just add Medium or M to a text line?

[ September 06, 2003, 22:41: Message edited by: JLS ]

Fyron

September 6th, 2003, 10:33 PM

Originally posted by Loser:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Environmental conditions have NO affect on happiness whatsoever.Ack! That hurts. Do environmental conditions do anything?<hr /></blockquote>Yes. Using Mild as base, they modify reproduction rates. Each increase in level adds +2 reproduction, save Optimal, which adds 3. Decreases subtract 2, save Deadly, which subtracts 3. Here is a chart (with mild at 10, and assuming I didn't forget a level http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ):

Optimal: 15
Good: 12
Mild: 10
Unpleasant: 8
Deadly: 5

JLS

September 6th, 2003, 10:33 PM

Originally posted by Loser:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Environmental conditions have NO affect on happiness whatsoever.Ack! That hurts. Do environmental conditions do anything?<hr /></blockquote>Helps better reproduction at that Planet, if high.

However, Fyron explains it best in next post...

[ September 06, 2003, 22:14: Message edited by: JLS ]

JLS

September 7th, 2003, 01:10 AM

Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:
All right, I am going to set up a some hundred years batch sim with the 3.02 file today. Standart turn test would be very hard, because at least every single event stops the turn flow, and every single event has to be saved or noted. I think it should not make a difference, but let's see what happens in simultaneous first.
Thanks PFT, there is a good possibility that there is no deference in regards to Events effects, whether you were to play in Simultaneous or Standard mode.
However, it is prudent to at least test to see. There are many areas of se4 that is definitely handled exceedingly different by the engine; in respects to play mode then just the contrasting movement.

[ September 06, 2003, 12:11: Message edited by: JLS ]

JLS

September 7th, 2003, 01:17 AM

Originally posted by oleg:
I saw AI' HW rebelled many, many times. With old file _very_ often, with a new file only very rare. I never had my HW rebelled though.

It is certain SE treats humans and AI HW differently. The disparity in events is just too obvious.Oleg, can you elaborate a little, I am unsure of your point.

We are happy as far as the new Events file is performing so far, you have made a great contribution. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

What are your thoughts on the new file and how it is performing?

[ September 06, 2003, 12:18: Message edited by: JLS ]

JLS

September 7th, 2003, 01:35 AM

Thanks for the file and your help with the mines, Mottlee http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

----------------

As a result from Mottlees continued help with balancing AIC Minesweeping over the Last few months, there will now be a reductions in the AI minesweeping abilities totaled to be about 30% over all with significant reductions applying to the early and early-mid game.

Furthermore, Please note in AIC v4.0 > The Human Players will now have the ability to destroy mines with Fighter Carriers.
In addition, for all Human Players: Minefields will have NO effect on any BaseShip, Heavy BaseShip or Heavy Carrier class vessel. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Scaled to the respective ships displacements; Dreadnoughts, Battleships, and Battle Cruisers will require MORE mines to damage or destroy Human Player Capital Ships http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ September 06, 2003, 13:01: Message edited by: JLS ]

mottlee

September 7th, 2003, 04:11 AM

Originally posted by JLS:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mottlee:
Expected AI Minesweeping resuts when fleeted for AIC: v4.00.

100+ Scouts (will blow thru a 100 Minefield)
46+ Escorts
46+ Frigates
DD 20
CL 10
CA 4+
BC 3
BB 2+
DN 2
BS 1
Hvy BS 1
---
CVL 2+
CV 1+
Hvy CV 1
=========================
OK I understand that they can/will go through a mine field but not without taking some hits to some shipsExactly,
If the AI was to enter your 100 minefield with a feet of 99 scouts, as it may be with base se4(ALL 99 AI SHIPS MAY BE LOST) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif
It would be true with 40 escorts or 40 frigates (ALL AI SHIPS WILL BE LOST)
The same would be true if the AI entered a 100 minefield with 15 destroyers (all destroyers will be lost)

Furthermore if the AI was to enter your 100 mine field with numbers closer to the above chart, for example a fleet of 17 or 18 destroyers many of the AI destroyer will be damaged or destroyed. However, some will get thru.

However, if fleet of 20 or 21 Destroyers was to enter a 100 minefield, then yes all will get thru with little to no damage. Picture it, as total armaments versus the mines if you will http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

-------------------------------------------------

The same applies to a mixed fleet of 8 Destroyers and 4 Light Cruisers, as it may be with base se4 (ALL SHIPS WILL BE DESTROYED) and this would include all TROOPS on any AI assault ships http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

If the AI enters a 100 minefield with a fleet of 10 destroyers and 4 Light Cruisers some may get thru but most will be damaged or destroyed and this would include most TROOPS on any AI assault ships

However an AI fleet of 12 destroyers and 5 Light Cruisers will get thru and will maintain the integrity of the troops and there assault ships http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif
=================================================
In short and to recap:

1: Approximately any quantity or make up; at 70% or below the chart all (The AI ships will be lost forever) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif
2: Approximately any quantity or make up above 70% but less then 100% of the chart (The AI will take damage and destruction, but some AI ships MAY get thru) depending on the proximity to charts 100%.
3: Any quantity or make up above 100% of the chart, the AI will clear the Minefield with little to no damage. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

This will also apply for Human Players to some extent with AIC 4.0 at previous post. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

With AIC, the closer you reach Baseships and Heavy Carriers >mines are akin to throwing stones at today’s tanks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif <hr /></blockquote>So you are telling me there is no part damage in these #'s?...if I go into a 100 ct mine field w/25 battleships there will be no damage????

oleg

September 7th, 2003, 11:03 AM

Not YOU, only players with "AI must take this first " race attribute - AI has an access to special ship hulls with buildin minesweeping ability http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Oh, sorry, you refer to possible changes in AIC 4.0 ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif

I personally do not like it. Any human player who fails to use minesweepers on his ships can as well take AI racial trait http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

[ September 07, 2003, 10:24: Message edited by: oleg ]

oleg

September 7th, 2003, 11:20 AM

Originally posted by JLS:
Oleg, it would be very helpful if you would answer some of the question the Players and I have been asking you, here and through out the few Last dozen or so Posts in this thread, that are with respect to your statements, when you can find the time.

Please be part of the solution http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Respectfully

JohnWhat, I am part of the problem ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Of course I'll register profound events , like palnets rebellion in my games (with 4.1 file).

QBrigid

September 7th, 2003, 02:00 PM

Originally posted by oleg:
Of course I'll register profound events , like palnets rebellion in my games (with 4.1 file).Oleg, when you say Rebellion

Please answer this question Oleg are you saying that a Major AI Players Homeworld now becomes another race?

I have NEVER seen this. The AI Players score will drop to nothing and when this happens the HomeWorld was destroyed or Captured.

QBrigid

September 7th, 2003, 03:00 PM

Oleg, can you please clear up these Points http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif , your credibility is at issue, you post inflammatory statements but you have yet made any account for them other then more- inflammatory statements.
You are coming across as though something is personal.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

For example: Please look at the intelligent and professional conversation JLS, Fyron, PTF and others had, they all asks a questions and and gave Answers. If some thing was not clear, they further explained THEMSELVES.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

With our files now in the order as you suggested, does not the Max Severity options work as you stated, this is our impression?

Have you tested your reformatted file and does the Pre New Game settings react severity levels accordingly?

How about desired Event occurrences; are the Percentages unchanged?

Oleg, can you explain how the percentages work as it is applied to events in lets say game that Last for 500 turns, with AIC events file?

Oleg can you tell me the chance is for a rebellion to be chosen based on AIC 4. event file?

Oleg, you suggested raising "Event Percent Chance Low := 20" is it possible that when players want to play at low they really do not want to play at low?

Also the one AI home world that had this rebellion in your one Neutral test. What was its over all demise?

Oleg, in a test would it not be practical as PTF suggested in his analogy 1 Human 4 or 5 AI?

Are you using all the default and unmodified files AIC?

The way AI Campaigns Event File was always programmed: Is that the odds for ANY Planet or a System to be destroyed in AIC is by far diminished as opposed to Stock se4, and this is good, would you not agree Oleg?

Furthermore, with all the proposed AI Rebellion remedies, it may lesson the total of new Independent Races spawned that enhances Human Player game Play, and this will not be a good thing - Oleg, would it?

Oleg, I have one Last question, when the AI has all as you say "these dome and glom Rebellions" are you able to walk all over the AI in AIC?

Because none of us has ever seen the AI in AIC lay down or its Home world switch to anouter race by an event . In AIC the AI have always been a real challenge. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

QBrigid

[ September 07, 2003, 14:12: Message edited by: QBrigid ]

PvK

September 7th, 2003, 03:46 PM

Hmm, the fleet vs. ship minefield argument (that many single ships will die to a minefield, but a fleet will survive) only seems true to me if all of the ships have orders to move specifically into the minefield sector and/or they arrive at the same time. Otherwise, a single ship destroyed by a minefield will create a known minefield marker, which will cause all the other ships to automatically avoid the minefield, unless the race is set to deliberately fly into minefields.

So it is also possible that a fleet will get wiped out by a minefield, when a bunch of smaller ships would only lose one ship. It depends on the situation.

In fact, if you don't have minesweepers, sending a single scout slightly ahead of a fleet can save your fleet from destruction.

PvK

JLS

September 7th, 2003, 05:05 PM

QB, Oleg�s Posts are not inflammatory by nature and I see no problem. However, it would be appropriate if he try to help us understand what he is seeing by addressing our concerns >as well.

My impression, in respect to Oleg's concern with the Rebellion Issue. Is that it could effect the AI Home World in the Medium Category if one was to look at the Events File; I tend to agree with him, as PTF and I was discussing in a earlier post.

I will wait for PTF and the test findings, and this should be sufficient.

We do want Human Player events for the more enjoyable game, but we do not want to burden the Human Player with to many events, also.

Worry not QB, we will find the Balance http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ September 07, 2003, 16:52: Message edited by: JLS ]

JLS

September 7th, 2003, 05:33 PM

Originally posted by mottlee:
Originally posted by JLS:
Expected AI Minesweeping resuts when fleeted for AIC: v4.00.

=================================================
In short and to recap:

1: Approximately any quantity or make up; at 70% or below the chart all (The AI ships will be lost forever) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif
2: Approximately any quantity or make up above 70% but less then 100% of the chart (The AI will take damage and destruction, but some AI ships MAY get thru) depending on the proximity to charts 100%.
3: Any quantity or make up above 100% of the chart, the AI will clear the Minefield with little to no damage. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

This will also apply for Human Players to some extent with AIC 4.0 at previous post. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

With AIC, the closer you reach Baseships and Heavy Carriers >mines are akin to throwing stones at today tanks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Originally posted by mottlee:
So you are telling me there is no part damage in these #'s?...if I go into a 100 ct mine field w/25 battleships there will be no damage????Yes, this is what I propose for the Human Player in AIC v4.0�

Fighter Carriers will destroy Mines
BaseShips will have the ability to overpower a minefield.
---
I also propose that Starting at Battle Cruiser thru Dreadnoughts; will be much more effective against mines. That will be in scale with there individual displacement.

Although the best procedure for this, has not been decided yet.

What are your thoughts?
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ September 07, 2003, 16:41: Message edited by: JLS ]

Fyron

September 7th, 2003, 06:01 PM

I think you should leave them with requiring minesweepers to sweep mines. Just because a ship is big doesn't mean it can't be affected by mines.

JLS

September 7th, 2003, 06:44 PM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
I think you should leave them with requiring minesweepers to sweep mines. Just because a ship is big doesn't mean it can't be affected by mines.In a dimension as with a Naval vessel beneath or on the sea, I could agree, to some extent.

However, in space is there an actual percussion in and around the outer hull.

If I am not mistaken, space is a vacuum of approximately 32 inchs.
Approximately the equivalent of 16 PSI (effect if contained in a bottle) also if I am not mistaken, considering a near miss with a mine or even outer hull attachment, is there really a displaced energy effect or will the energy take the path of least resistance. With attachment, would it propel the ship in a direction, then to actually destroy it?

If there is a measure for the MINE for example: MAGNETIC, EMP, Shape Charged etc. To attach it self to a Spaceship or whatever our imagination can think of to make this mine more effective, as to maintain the illusion of a World War II - US Submarine entering Tokyo Bay or the need of a Mine Sweeper to Sweep a defined and practical Harbor location, as in naval warfare, then so be it.

In addition, with the creativity and the imagination to create a MAGNETIC, EMP, Shape Charged etc mine. There is also the creativity and the imagination for the countermeasure.

However, it is my opinion that actual minesweepers in the vastness of space or the destruction of ones Fleet probably will not be the sole methods to clear mines in the future.

What would you say?
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ September 07, 2003, 18:05: Message edited by: JLS ]

Fyron

September 7th, 2003, 06:53 PM

Space mines are self guided (AI computer controlled) and don't usually miss. This is 25th century technology, afterall. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Also, "minesweepers" represent all of those alternate methods of "sweeping" mines. They just need a simple name.

[ September 07, 2003, 17:54: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

JLS

September 7th, 2003, 07:07 PM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Space mines are self guided (AI computer controlled) and don't usually miss. This is 25th century technology, afterall. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Also, "minesweepers" represent all of those alternate methods of "sweeping" mines. They just need a simple name.I see, but this sounds like you are describing the existing Drone for se4 now, not a mine?

[ September 07, 2003, 18:09: Message edited by: JLS ]

Fyron

September 7th, 2003, 07:12 PM

No. Drones are automated miniature ships (sort of). Mines are just flying warheads. Would it make any sense for 100 immobile mines to be able to all hit a ship or fleet in an entire SECTOR of space? Of course not. They have to be able to move around to hit their targets. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif And why would a people capable of travelling to other stars not think to strap some basic engines on their mines?

JLS

September 7th, 2003, 07:23 PM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
No. Drones are automated miniature ships (sort of). Mines are just flying warheads. Would it make any sense for 100 immobile mines to be able to all hit a ship or fleet in an entire SECTOR of space? Of course not. They have to be able to move around to hit their targets. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif And why would a people capable of travelling to other stars not think to strap some basic engines on their mines?Ahh, good point http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

So what you are saying is, that the drone is a automated miniature ships, capable of damage from the effects of our existing Point Defence, but a mine theoretically is so small or too fast that existing on board weapons will have no effect.

Ok, this does make sence.

[ September 07, 2003, 18:36: Message edited by: JLS ]

Fyron

September 7th, 2003, 07:37 PM

You can shoot them if they get launched in combat, but that can only happen in tactical combat versuse human players. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

It is quite possible that PDCs could be used to target mines. Other ship weapons are too big to target them though IMO (much like targetting missiles, which are also quite small and fast). That, and mines have super cloaking, so normal weapons can't target them. They do have level 5 cloak afterall. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Some mods, such as Devnull, make it so that PDCs sweep mines instead of special Minesweepers (IIRC).

Essentially, Drones are big enough to be targetable by ship weapons. They are the same size as Frigates and such, afterall. Mines, on the other hand, are small, probably a bit bigger than missiles.

[ September 07, 2003, 18:40: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Fyron

September 7th, 2003, 07:41 PM

Hmm... you changed the post I was replying to. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Alneyan

September 7th, 2003, 07:43 PM

Mines are also supposed to be hidden (prevents active level 5 scanning and so on), so they should be cloacked devices deployed in an area and programmed to target any incoming hostile ship. It would make more sense than having stationary mines which could not possibly hit a ship in space. (Or it would be so unlikely that you would need the Heart of Gold) On the other hand, drones are more autonomous devices, I would picture drones as being dirigible missiles.

As for the gameplay, I would not advice you to allow the automatic "destruction" of mines for the player (after a certain number of ships). Wouldn't it actually weaken the AI? Or rather, why would you want to give this ability to the player? (I didn't see the reason in your previous Posts, but since there are so much Posts in this thread, I might have overlook it)

JLS

September 7th, 2003, 07:44 PM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Hmm... you changed the post I was replying to. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif Absolutely, your explanation is right on.

We were typeing at the same time http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ September 07, 2003, 18:45: Message edited by: JLS ]

Fyron

September 7th, 2003, 07:47 PM

Ok. If you want PDCs to be able to target mines, then PDCs should be given some sweeping ability (such as 1 for all levels, to allow specialized sweepers to still be useful), not the ship hulls. Otherwise, you are saying that PDC on a BS can target mines better than PDC on a number of DS or so, which to me makes 0 sense. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif I can understand that for AI considerations, giving their hulls some sweeping makes sense. But so would giving it to PDCs. They use PDCs on most ships, so they can still get plenty of sweeping capability that way.

JLS

September 7th, 2003, 07:56 PM

Originally posted by Alneyan:
Mines are also supposed to be hidden (prevents active level 5 scanning and so on), so they should be cloacked devices deployed in an area and programmed to target any incoming hostile ship. It would make more sense than having stationary mines which could not possibly hit a ship in space. (Or it would be so unlikely that you would need the Heart of Gold) On the other hand, drones are more autonomous devices, I would picture drones as being dirigible missiles.
Excellent point http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

As for the gameplay, I would not advice you to allow the automatic "destruction" of mines for the player (after a certain number of ships). Wouldn't it actually weaken the AI? Or rather, why would you want to give this ability to the player? (I didn't see the reason in your previous Posts, but since there are so much Posts in this thread, I might have overlook it)This is good advice, Alneyan. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Yes, it would have an effect on the AI or another Human Opponent.

So, you feel that the Ability should not be given to the Human Players Ships. Ok.

Alneyan, how about Carriers, with in theory many fighters that may take out mines, if they could achieve this effectively?

[ September 07, 2003, 19:44: Message edited by: JLS ]

Fyron

September 7th, 2003, 07:59 PM

The problem wiht carriers and fighters is that the carriers hit the mines long before any fighters could be launched. Mines are invisible, afterall. Carriers certainly do not have their fighters out in space when they are travelling around, unless you actually launch them into space yourself. They can't because if the fighters were in space, they would not be able to use WPs, as fighters can not warp on their own.

JLS

September 7th, 2003, 08:00 PM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Ok. If you want PDCs to be able to target mines, then PDCs should be given some sweeping ability (such as 1 for all levels, to allow specialized sweepers to still be useful), not the ship hulls. Otherwise, you are saying that PDC on a BS can target mines better than PDC on a number of DS or so, which to me makes 0 sense. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif I can understand that for AI considerations, giving their hulls some sweeping makes sense. But so would giving it to PDCs. They use PDCs on most ships, so they can still get plenty of sweeping capability that way.I like this Fyron, it would be a great way to shore up the players anti-mine capabilities http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Fyron

September 7th, 2003, 08:05 PM

Perhaps make a "sweeping tech" that requires Mines 1. What it will do is give copies of the PDCs that have the sweeping ability. So, without it, you have PDC I-V without sweeping. With it, you get PDC I-V with sweeping. Otherwise, the impending uselessness of mines happens a lot earlier in the game, as it will be much cheaper to research. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif That, or just use the normal Mines tech as the tech grid, so Point Defense Weapons 1-5 give PDC I-V. Point Defense Weapons 1 + Mines 1 gives PDC I with sweeping. Point Defense Weapons 2 + Mines 2 gives PDC II with sweeping, and so on. This could get complicated though. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif It is up to you really, as it is your mod. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

JLS

September 7th, 2003, 08:07 PM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
The problem wiht carriers and fighters is that the carriers hit the mines long before any fighters could be launched. Mines are invisible, afterall. Carriers certainly do not have their fighters out in space when they are travelling around, unless you actually launch them into space yourself. They can't because if the fighters were in space, they would not be able to use WPs, as fighters can not warp on their own.Agreed, Fyron. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ September 07, 2003, 19:23: Message edited by: JLS ]

JLS

September 7th, 2003, 08:16 PM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Perhaps make a "sweeping tech" that requires Mines 1. What it will do is give copies of the PDCs that have the sweeping ability. So, without it, you have PDC I-V without sweeping. With it, you get PDC I-V with sweeping. Otherwise, the impending uselessness of mines happens a lot earlier in the game, as it will be much cheaper to research. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif That, or just use the normal Mines tech as the tech grid, so Point Defense Weapons 1-5 give PDC I-V. Point Defense Weapons 1 + Mines 1 gives PDC I with sweeping. Point Defense Weapons 2 + Mines 2 gives PDC II with sweeping, and so on. This could get complicated though. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif It is up to you really, as it is your mod. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif This is good stuff, thank you Fyron http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

JLS

September 7th, 2003, 08:23 PM

But in theory, how about if Carriers, with many fighters could take out mines effectively before any damage to the Carrier.

If this could be feasible. In your opinion, (cloaking is not a problem because the pilots have there eye right on the target, no sensors required) would this feel realistic to you?

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ September 07, 2003, 19:24: Message edited by: JLS ]

Alneyan

September 7th, 2003, 08:24 PM

Originally posted by JLS:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
The problem wiht carriers and fighters is that the carriers hit the mines long before any fighters could be launched. Mines are invisible, afterall. Carriers certainly do not have their fighters out in space when they are travelling around, unless you actually launch them into space yourself. They can't because if the fighters were in space, they would not be able to use WPs, as fighters can not warp on their own.Agreed, Fyron. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

But in theory Alneyan, how about if Carriers, with many fighters could take out mines effectively before any damage to the Carrier.

Could this be feasible in your opinion, cloaking is not a problem because the pilots have there eye right on the target, no sensors required?
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif <hr /></blockquote>Hmm, I would differ with Fyron here, fighters could be launched in space during travels, at least a few of them to keep watch just in case. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif (Except if the goal is top speed of course) After that, all the fighters would be launched in a scramble to protect the ships from these ships. All the mines are not exactly close to each other, they should be spaced and when one spots enemy ships, they all close in their target(s), so the carriers could have time to launch the fighters. And of course, when you are in enemy territory, there should always be fighters launched.

On the gameplay side of the things, it would have to be tested of course, but this idea seems to be reasonable. (If the carriers are not better hulls for warships, apart from the Light Carrier in the very beginning of the game, but this one is only a temporary asset)

Fyron suggestion would also work, but as he said, it would become quite complicated. Fyron, let's say you have Mine III and PDC IV, the PDC available would be PDC III with Mine Sweeping and PDC IV without Mine Sweeping right? And would the efficiency of the Mine Sweeping ability increases or remains at one mine per turn?

[ September 07, 2003, 19:24: Message edited by: Alneyan ]

JLS

September 7th, 2003, 08:32 PM

Alneyan,

As with MINE attacks in the game, Fighters vs. Mines would be ambiguous at best; in game play.

However, if it could be effective that the Fighters versus the defenseless Mines in this ambiguous battle that was to save the Carrier, fleet and the day.

This would be ok with you as a player, if I was to assure to the AI can handle this?

[ September 07, 2003, 19:42: Message edited by: JLS ]

JLS

September 7th, 2003, 08:48 PM

Mottlee, your 285 turn >no warp- standard play game looks great.
The AI all seem fine and it appears you had one AI Race Spawned the Canarus Society this new Independent race surly would have show promise and contributed to this galaxy, if it not been so ruthlessly gobbled up by so treacherous of an Empire�

Your race Character is truly interesting, not to mentioning very Productive you are currently in first place and you have 92 ships with Battleships
Your opponent Eee; is in 4th with 118 Ships but only has cruisers
Systems and Planets about even with you having the advantage in Position and with many well prepared defensive positions that would make General Robert E. Lee proud.

Your diplomatic skills with the Bobroba have not gone unnoticed, very impressive; you have them wrapped around your finger, truly deserving the rank of Galactic Emperor as the profits have foretold.

I noticed in the remote System of Candida you and the Eee have been sharing the fruits of the Earth together for some time, then this bloody war started, the War your senate conspired to ensnare those gas-breathing jellyfish and enslave them to a life cruelty on the federated gas mines. This caricature is not shared by your great nation alone, no: both the House of Mottlee and the house of BobRobi conspired to bring down the peaceful and trusting Eee� Yes this is true and all Worlds are aware of the atrocities against the Eee committed on Candida II, Sure it has been released by that the Contaminated food stored for this Eee colony that in fact has killed a sizable amount of it population was pure negligence of the Eee.
No the truth is that it was BobRobi operatives and that this procedure was in fact delivered by a federation spy from the House of Mottlee, yes the Federation trained the backward and confused BobRobi the art of intelligence and yes it has been suspected you received technological data for compensation how else could you have learned the art of BobRobi: Base Construction, repair, sensors and their most guarded secret the process to refine a reflective alloy. One day the House of Mottlee and the House of Bobrobi will answer to these crimes on humanity.

It also has not gone unnoticed that you have pre mined travel lanes and warp junctures this mining of crucial Eee access points is in direct violation of AIC treaty article 409. Also to mention the trap that was set for the Eees unsuspecting Carrier support Fleet on Candida I. Yes this pre calculated trap set by the House of mottlee consisting of Hundreds on mines dozens of satellites, yes the many Concealed federation fighter Squadrons lurking in the mine shafts of this so called peaceful mining Colony, just waiting to strike.

Candida-I was beloved by so many for its picaresque beauty and now only to be discovered by Eee agents that is in fact not a mining Colony but a colony of WAR and Destruction, sure it is saved and thrives under the label of a mining colony. However, I ask you to look with in the dark alleys of the night you will see the secrets with in the secrets.
Sure the federation purport that its Nature Shrine on Candida-I is the most wondered and visited place of the entire galaxy. It is only shadowed by a Death Shrine and in the darkest night with scores of Federation Citizens chanting and preying for the destruction of Eee.
I also ask you, what of the 3 Intel Facilities did you thing this could be disguised as research settlements, you are indeed cunning.

I ask one Last thing from the House of Mottlee, what would a mining colony be in need of a Combat Control Center if it was not federation intentions to ambush the unsuspecting Eee Carrier Support fleet on Candida-I.

The Federation purports that it was the Eee that started this war, I say it was the Federation and as this bloody war goes on I will prove this. It is the least I can do for the Fleet and the Eee patriots that was butchered by the Federation as remnants of damaged and broken vessel return to the Eee Yards of Candida-V and report the treachery of the Federation and BobRobi for the blatant disregard for the pact of friendship we shared an so valued. We only hope and prey that this war will be contained to the Candida System and Peace Talks may resolve.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Mottlee, you are in a fine possition to overpower the Eee http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Go get um....

-----
Mottlee, may I release this AIC v3.02 save for the Comunitie? It is devvloping into a great game.

[ September 08, 2003, 17:20: Message edited by: JLS ]

Fyron

September 7th, 2003, 08:53 PM

Originally posted by JLS:
If this could be feasible. In your opinion, (cloaking is not a problem because the pilots have there eye right on the target, no sensors required) would this feel realistic to you? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Cloaking defeats eyes. Note how one scanning option is "Hyper Optics". This implies some sort of enhanced normal visual methods (silly, yes, but it is in the game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ). Sort of like a hubble telescope I guess. Why this can see cloaked ships is beyond me. But, this can be defeated (esp. by Mines). So, it would seem to follow that cloaking literally makes mines invisible, not just hides them from scanners.

[ September 07, 2003, 20:04: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Fyron

September 7th, 2003, 08:56 PM

Hmm, I would differ with Fyron here, fighters could be launched in space during travels, at least a few of them to keep watch just in case. Yes, they could. But, this requires you launching them in space yourself. Otherwise, they are in the carrier. If there was no option to launch them into space manually, then alternate methods would be feasible. Also, when combat starts, every single fighter is inside the carrier. If some were in space, they would still be in space at the beginning of combat. As this is not the case (except in cases where you manually launched them into space on the strategic map), it follows that all fighters remain inside the carrier during space travel, except when specifically launched prior to travelling.

Grand Lord Vito

September 7th, 2003, 10:55 PM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JLS:
If this could be feasible. In your opinion, (cloaking is not a problem because the pilots have there eye right on the target, no sensors required) would this feel realistic to you? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Cloaking defeats eyes. Note how one scanning option is "Hyper Optics". This implies some sort of enhanced normal visual methods (silly, yes, but it is in the game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ). Sort of like a hubble telescope I guess. Why this can see cloaked ships is beyond me. But, this can be defeated (esp. by Mines). So, it would seem to follow that cloaking literally makes mines invisible, not just hides them from scanners.<hr /></blockquote>http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Your to much Fyron. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Fyron has a point. So much for the ol red eye theory, unless of coarse the pilots have special goggles that will pierce that hyper optic technology http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Grand Lord Vito

September 7th, 2003, 11:04 PM

Grand Lord Vito

September 7th, 2003, 11:16 PM

Originally posted by JLS:

As with MINE attacks in the game, Fighters vs. Mines would be ambiguous at best; in game play.

However, if it could be effective that the Fighters versus the defenseless Mines in this ambiguous battle that was to save the Carrier, fleet and the day.

This would be ok with you as a player, if I was to assure to the AI can handle this?The way I understand this is that you want the CV to be able to clear a Minefield.
This will be done how by MS ability on the Carrier Hull or the Fighter bay Component. With an Empty Carrier, it will be just a minesweeper.

This may be a stretch http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
But honestly I really don’t have a problem with it

[ September 07, 2003, 23:11: Message edited by: Grand Lord Vito ]

Grand Lord Vito

September 7th, 2003, 11:25 PM

Wow, QB you are always the diplomat, I didn’t think you had it in ya http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif You go girl, you go girl http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ September 07, 2003, 22:29: Message edited by: Grand Lord Vito ]

Grand Lord Vito

September 7th, 2003, 11:40 PM

Originally posted by JLS:
My impression, in respect to Oleg's concern with the Rebellion Issue. Is that it could effect the AI Home World in the Medium Category if one was to look at the Events File; I tend to agree with him, as PTF and I was discussing in a earlier post.

I will wait for PTF and the test findings, and this should be sufficient.
The Simu test with the new events file going fine with nothing to report yet.

You probably should delete the medium Rebel, Warp Close and any Damage Facilities from Events 4. beta1 file to be on the save side http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Grand Lord Vito

September 7th, 2003, 11:47 PM

Originally posted by PvK:
In fact, if you don't have minesweepers, sending a single scout slightly ahead of a fleet can save your fleet from destruction.
PvK[/QB]4 medium transports full of MS components for your empire should do the trick on any minefield.

That’s it, when in doubt send the scout http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Grand Lord Vito

September 8th, 2003, 12:20 AM

Originally posted by QBrigid:
Oleg, can you explain how the percentages work as it is applied to events in lets say game that Last for 500 turns, with AIC events file?
At face value off the top of my head, the chance with the medium Rebel minimum is what about 238 to 1 the rebel event will even be called. When any event is called it will not be dismissed from the pool, so this chance could go to infinite or about 39 to 1.

Now when you play that high chance game {What was that percentage 80% ?} anyway. The chance to have any event will increase true.
But the rebel will always remain about 39 to 1 when a event is to be called.

I must admit it does seem extraordinary that you continue to see a Rebellion Event on many or any AI Home World.

[ September 07, 2003, 23:36: Message edited by: Grand Lord Vito ]

oleg

September 8th, 2003, 06:05 AM

Originally posted by QBrigid:
Oleg, can you please clear up these Points http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif , your credibility is at issue, you post inflammatory statements but you have yet made any account for them other then more- inflammatory statements.
You are coming across as though something is personal.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

For example: Please look at the intelligent and professional conversation JLS, Fyron, PTF and others had, they all asks a questions and and gave Answers. If some thing was not clear, they further explained THEMSELVES.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

< snip >

QBrigidWhat is wrong with you ? Do you imply I am lousy liar and simply make up AI' HW rebellion ??

Here is another test - more or less standard game setup, normal files, including new events.txt. The only change is 10 times higher chance of events in settings.txt just to save time. I also play with slightly changed components.txt but it should't really matter. I did't do anything with my race, simply press F12 and watch what happens to AI races.
Now, check the Norak after while :
1062993637.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1062993637.zip)

Anyway, this is my Last post in this discussion. What' the point ? Bye all.

JLS

September 8th, 2003, 06:03 PM

Oleg, you will be missed. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

However, do you really feel QB was rude or was QB >just a little assertive possibly even frustrated?

Indeed, I am surprised you would fold with out answering the questions before you >that are in fact only arisen by your statements.
= = =

Honestly Oleg. Please reread all your Posts and all the others with complete sincerity are attempting to answer (ALL) yes, every single question statement or remark you have posted. And you have been warranted replies, concern and answers to all that you have presented thru out.
I must admit, you have not been very forthcoming with a written account on your findings to base your statements. This will leave many doubts when you are unwilling to commit to a question.

I am frustrated by the lack of committed information by you ignoring few questions that over the past week has accumulated now to what now looks like a deposition, so sure, I also would find this menacing as well�

Please remember, I have negotiated with you on all points thru out this thread http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif , and conceded many to you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
With respect, I reorganized the v3.02 Events file as to show good faith. Now only to have you criticize new 4.beta Events file that is in testing; and this only exists as result of my appeasements.

Actually Players that play and have played AIC v3.02, do not see any Homeworld go thru a rebellion and changed to another race as you claim.

However,
I agree also that if one was to EXAMINE the file with MEDIUM event that there is indeed a 1 in 40 possibility that a Rebellion could happen and this would be only checked 10% of the toral turns >as GLV somewhat pointed out. Nevertheless, this is not to say it would happen on a Home World, or even probable. And that in fact I am of agreement with you and GLV, that I was waiting to here from PTF to confirm GLV and your concerns with his tests, as it turns we are all in agreements that the Medium and low events should not be scalding in nature.

=====

When I log in to the AI Players in past AIC v3.02 games for example the 450+ game the other day, and posted on the AI was all fine and 4 confirmed independent races were Spawned.

In fact Mottlees 285 turn Save game that I posted, I again can attest and confirm that there is no AI Homeworld rebellions and that with absolute fact all AI Players Home Worlds Jubilate that all the AI Colonies are jubilant also to mention one Independent AI Race was spawned.

I truly wish you would reconsider; I have become fond of you and really have enjoyed our discussions over the months http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ September 08, 2003, 17:43: Message edited by: JLS ]

JLS

September 8th, 2003, 06:31 PM

Originally posted by Grand Lord Vito:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
I think you should leave them with requiring minesweepers to sweep mines. Just because a ship is big doesn't mean it can't be affected by mines.JLS, I agree with Fyron, it really is fine as it is.<hr /></blockquote>So you wouldn�t buy into the Carrier vs Mine proposal. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Okay- It is shelved.

Agreed , minesweeping will remain as is for the Human Player �

JLS

September 8th, 2003, 07:05 PM

Originally posted by oleg:
Here is another test - more or less standard game setup, normal files, including new events.txt.The only change is 10 times higher chance of events in settings.txt just to save time. I also play with slightly changed components.txt but it should't really matter.I did't do anything with my race, simply press F12 and watch what happens to AI races.
Now, check the Norak after while :
Oleg, there is no need to wait a while http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif NORAK as presented is already rebelled with this your file? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif

This is not meant as a reflection on you or your integrity, Oleg�
Maybe you should reinstall AIC v3.02 again; to be sure, all default files are fresh.

For simplicity, and comfort and a few players just won�t download anything for fear of a virus�

I along with many other players have tested the AIC v3.02 files many times from our Computer from jump the Last few weeks and we have not seen a Homeworld go into a rebellion as you claim.
= = = =

With respect to the 4.beta1 file, it is only released for testing and we all agree on the changes within low and medium Events.
Is there still an issue or is this resolved and behind us http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

We are now testing the High and Catastrophic lay out and events occurrences and we really desire your help.

The Beta Events file also has to be tailored down to spawn 1 to about 4 new races a 500 turns of the game and not much more then that. PTF is assisting with this, and with the data he has presented this still needs to be addressed and lowered at or even below existing v3.02 Events

Oleg we are testing all events at Current 3.02 settings.
Event Percent Chance Low: = 10/Medium: = 20/High: = 40

The settings v3.02 above are doubled with the one exception of HIGH to that of stock se4 and some Players have suggested that this also may become problematic in a high bonus game.

Also, most agree that the Low should not be increase as was suggested and a few has a reduction to defailt :=5 should be strongly considered.

Many Players have also indicted that :=30 should be the ceiling in high percent chance.

What is your thought on this? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

=================================================
REFERENCE

STOCK SEIV settings
Event Percent Chance Low := 5
Event Percent Chance Medium := 10
Event Percent Chance High := 25

--------------------
AIC v3.02
Event Percent Chance Low := 10
Event Percent Chance Medium := 20
Event Percent Chance High := 40

[ September 08, 2003, 19:53: Message edited by: JLS ]

Alneyan

September 8th, 2003, 07:38 PM

Originally posted by JLS:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Grand Lord Vito:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
I think you should leave them with requiring minesweepers to sweep mines. Just because a ship is big doesn't mean it can't be affected by mines.JLS, I agree with Fyron, it really is fine as it is.<hr /></blockquote>So you wouldn�t buy into the Carrier vs Mine proposal. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Okay- It is shelved.

Agreed , minesweeping will remain as is for the Human Player �<hr /></blockquote>It is a bit late to answer, my post was ready yesterday but then my connection went down as usual. So, Fyron does make a good point, mines probably remain invisible, which would make targeting them a bit hard.

As for the "right" thing to do with minesweeping, it would also depend on your aim about this aspect of the game. Are you trying to reduce the efficiency of minesweepers/improving the usefulness of mines? Or would you like to make them less dangerous for the player?

JLS

September 8th, 2003, 07:53 PM

Originally posted by Alneyan:
As for the "right" thing to do with minesweeping, it would also depend on your aim about this aspect of the game. Are you trying to reduce the efficiency of minesweepers/improving the usefulness of mines? Or would you like to make them less dangerous for the player?No, just brain storming http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I was floating a proposal that some Human Player ships in AIC for Version 4.0, may be equiped to deal with Mines. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I personally liked the CV idea, but so it goes http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[ September 08, 2003, 18:59: Message edited by: JLS ]

Fyron

September 8th, 2003, 08:08 PM

JLS, Oleg posted a savegame as evidence of his statements. How more forthcoming can he be?

Also, if the same events are present in AIC, they will most certainly work the same as they do in stock SE4. If AI homeworlds can be hit by a rebellion event in stock, they certainly can in AIC. You can not change how the hard-coded nature of events work.

[ September 08, 2003, 19:11: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

JLS

September 8th, 2003, 08:33 PM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
[QB]JLS, Oleg posted a savegame as evidence of his statements. How more forthcoming can he be?
Fyron, I understand,

If you notice that file is already in rebellion...
What is there for to test?
It is a file that say look at this.

As he as stated, he has altered the setting file and facilities.
I really want to move on and have no more to say on Olegs test or past tests, I am too unsure of his benchmarks and setups.

====

Also, if the same events are present in AIC, they will most certainly work the same as they do in stock SE4. If AI homeworlds can be hit by a rebellion event in stock, they certainly can in AIC. You can not change how the hard-coded nature of events work.Actually there has been conflicting post on this...

However it is agreed...
That Low and Medium should not have scalding events that may hurt the home world...
As we have been posting for most of the week.

We are testing High and Cat now.

[ September 08, 2003, 19:36: Message edited by: JLS ]

Fyron

September 8th, 2003, 08:43 PM

He changed the settings only in that events occur more frequently, which in no way alters the nature of the events themselves.

Events are random, not scripted, so it is difficult to get a savegame before an event occurs and prove that it occurs on the next turn.

Actually there has been conflicting post on this...
Not really. A "Destroy - Planet" event itself (not chances of occurence or Messages or anything, but the actual event itself) in AIC is the same as it is in stock SE4 or any other mod. It is impossible to make them work differently. They always destroy the targeted planet, period. This is the same with all other events. Some you can change the affected amounts, but the events still work the same way.

[ September 08, 2003, 19:46: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

JLS

September 8th, 2003, 09:04 PM

Understood.

Fyron,If you could...
Maybe you can answer the questions that QB is concerned with, this would be of very helpful, I am unsure of some of the answers, myself.

Thanks JLS

mottlee

September 8th, 2003, 09:44 PM

Originally posted by oleg:
Not YOU, only players with "AI must take this first " race attribute - AI has an access to special ship hulls with buildin minesweeping ability http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Oh, sorry, you refer to possible changes in AIC 4.0 ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif

I personally do not like it. Any human player who fails to use minesweepers on his ships can as well take AI racial trait http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif running 3.2

mottlee

September 8th, 2003, 09:53 PM

Originally posted by JLS:
Mottlee, your 285 turn >no warp- standard play game looks great.
The AI all seem fine and it appears you had one AI Race Spawned the Canarus Society this new Independent race surly would have show promise and contributed to this galaxy, if it not been so ruthlessly gobbled up by so treacherous of an Empire�

Your race Character is truly interesting, not to mentioning very Productive you are currently in first place and you have 92 ships with Battleships
Your opponent Eee; is in 4th with 118 Ships but only has cruisers
Systems and Planets about even with you having the advantage in Position and with many well prepared defensive positions that would make General Robert E. Lee proud.

Your diplomatic skills with the Bobroba have not gone unnoticed, very impressive; you have them wrapped around your finger, truly deserving the rank of Galactic Emperor as the profits have foretold.

I noticed in the remote System of Candida you and the Eee have been sharing the fruits of the Earth together for some time, then this bloody war started, the War your senate conspired to ensnare those gas-breathing jellyfish and enslave them to a life cruelty on the federated gas mines. This caricature is not shared by your great nation alone, no: both the House of Mottlee and the house of BobRobi conspired to bring down the peaceful and trusting Eee� Yes this is true and all Worlds are aware of the atrocities against the Eee committed on Candida II, Sure it has been released by that the Contaminated food stored for this Eee colony that in fact has killed a sizable amount of it population was pure negligence of the Eee.
No the truth is that it was BobRobi operatives and that this procedure was in fact delivered by a federation spy from the House of Mottlee, yes the Federation trained the backward and confused BobRobi the art of intelligence and yes it has been suspected you received technological data for compensation how else could you have learned the art of BobRobi: Base Construction, repair, sensors and their most guarded secret the process to refine a reflective alloy. One day the House of Mottlee and the House of Bobrobi will answer to these crimes on humanity.

It also has not gone unnoticed that you have pre mined travel lanes and warp junctures this mining of crucial Eee access points is in direct violation of AIC treaty article 409. Also to mention the trap that was set for the Eees unsuspecting Carrier support Fleet on Candida I. Yes this pre calculated trap set by the House of mottlee consisting of Hundreds on mines dozens of satellites, yes the many Concealed federation fighter Squadrons lurking in the mine shafts of this so called peaceful mining Colony, just waiting to strike.

Candida-I was beloved by so many for its picaresque beauty and now only to be discovered by Eee agents that is in fact not a mining Colony but a colony of WAR and Destruction, sure it is saved and thrives under the label of a mining colony. However, I ask you to look with in the dark alleys of the night you will see the secrets with in the secrets.
Sure the federation purport that its Nature Shrine on Candida-I is the most wondered and visited place of the entire galaxy. It is only shadowed by a Death Shrine and in the darkest night with scores of Federation Citizens chanting and preying for the destruction of Eee.
I also ask you, what of the 3 Intel Facilities did you thing this could be disguised as research settlements, you are indeed cunning.

I ask one Last thing from the House of Mottlee, what would a mining colony be in need of a Combat Control Center if it was not federation intentions to ambush the unsuspecting Eee Carrier Support fleet on Candida-I.

The Federation purports that it was the Eee that started this war, I say it was the Federation and as this bloody war goes on I will prove this. It is the least I can do for the Fleet and the Eee patriots that was butchered by the Federation as remnants of damaged and broken vessel return to the Eee Yards of Candida-V and report the treachery of the Federation and BobRobi for the blatant disregard for the pact of friendship we shared an so valued. We only hope and prey that this war will be contained to the Candida System and Peace Talks may resolve.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Mottlee, you are in a fine possition to overpower the Eee http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Go get um....

-----
Mottlee, may I release this AIC v3.02 save for the Comunitie? It is devvloping into a great game.Go for it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

JLS

September 8th, 2003, 09:59 PM

Originally posted by mottlee:
running 3.2No, just brain storming

I was floating a proposal that some Human Player ships in AIC for Version 4.0, may be equiped to deal with Mines.

I personally liked the CV idea, but so it goes http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

What do you think, Mottlee?

mottlee

September 8th, 2003, 10:06 PM

Originally posted by JLS:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mottlee:
running 3.2No, just brain storming

I was floating a proposal that some Human Player ships in AIC for Version 4.0, may be equiped to deal with Mines.

I personally liked the CV idea, but so it goes http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

What do you think, Mottlee?<hr /></blockquote>Could work, like the ship hull for remote mining. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Fyron

September 8th, 2003, 10:19 PM

JLS, check PM.

JLS

September 8th, 2003, 11:20 PM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
He changed the settings only in that events occur more frequently, which in no way alters the nature of the events themselves.
Agreed.

Fyron as I have previously tried to explain if you raise the Event chance to 100% to test you will:

Originally posted by JLS:
All too 100%, this will clearly increase and bastardize the Event results ten fold for all the tiered categories and will not prove the result you are attempting to present.
Lets say that with 40 events in the Medium and Low Categories there is ONE Rebellion, and that se4 does not recognize High and Catastrophic events on ones Homeworld.

Lets say we tested 100 turn games�

If the event was raised to 1000% in the ssettings file; Chance is, I would probably have a hit (HW Rebellion on home world in the First few - 100 turn games. (a few minutes)

If I set the chance to 100% I may get a hit in 10 - 100 turn games. (few Hours)

However, at a default high of 30% I may get a hit in 30 full and Complete games. With normal play, this is Insignificant and Irrelevant.
If players were to want to have there game at MAX option (HIGH 30%) as desired in their game; then so be it, they will have a smorgasbords of events occurring, frequently. And why shouldn�t they, they wanted it that way http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif They set to max for that reason http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Under a normal default games at 10% the HW Hit may not occur until you�re what 90 to 900th game.

This is why the Players do not want me to Change the Events too much, they Like the Low occurrences, and they like the Medium occurrences the way the old AIC Events file was�

And as you can see this has been a very passionate subject http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif , and truly Oleg has made this an very interesting and productive week (for the most part) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ September 08, 2003, 22:34: Message edited by: JLS ]

Fyron

September 8th, 2003, 11:46 PM

Oleg's goal was just to prove that the rebellion event can hit AI homeworlds, not that it hits them frequently.

Grand Lord Vito

September 9th, 2003, 05:31 PM

Fyron you do agree in part with what JLS posted, don’t you?

Fyron, even I can make any file corrupt, just by taking the HW safeguards off from the CC facility that JLS explained earlier or changing any other data including the event chance.

By someone changing JLS settings or the Chance to 100% sure you alter the outcome of game. Sure I can present (SOMETHING) other then the full and complete truth and make it sound like it is a reoccurring bug. But without the fabrications, AIC does play fine like every one has been telling Oleg.

However I would never change, alter, fabricate an Adamant or someother ModS data on your Facilities, Settings and Events file and then Post in Adamant or create a new thread to see look what I can do if I alter your data.

Sure take off or reverse the Happiness modifiers from the AI Cultural facilities file and you will see on the file that all Homeworlds on that game are unhappy and you will be slandered Fyron. Since in a normal game that ANYONE can play ALL the Home Worlds are JUBILANT. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

After many players and JLS tell Oleg that under game conditions we as players do not see this.

Do we state are you calling me a liar as he did. No.

JLS has been polite with Oleg and has always tried to get him and the rest of us on track or at least a track. And then when are
Oleg again post look what I can do if I change the file data.

One Last time if AIC is played with default files you should not see a AI Homeworld have an rebellion. The odds are to extreme against it. If JLS decides to drop the Medium Event Rebellion then you will NEVER see the HW Rebel. I also like the new AI Independent race joining the game random and JLS has done a good job to assist this and in the past the AI Independent has always came from a Colony and not the AI HW in AIC.
In game play this is the way it is no matter how much extremes Oleg needs to go when he changes the data to prove his point. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif

JLS, maybe you should leave everything the way it was in the old 3.2 events because it does play great as is.

And until Oleg at least anwers the question:

With our files now in the order as you suggested, does not the Max Severity options work as you stated?

Have Oleg prove to all of us that this works first, let him show respect, let him show some good faith. That the reordered file does prevent cat events when option set to low as he caims.

[ September 09, 2003, 16:44: Message edited by: Grand Lord Vito ]

Grand Lord Vito

September 9th, 2003, 06:00 PM

Originally posted by JLS:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by oleg:
I suggest.
Event Percent Chance Low := 20
Event Percent Chance Medium := 40
Event Percent Chance High := 60

with corrected events file. Now the relative percentages (between low, med. etc) follows the intuition meaning, one would like to have more of them to see AWESOME cataclisms http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Although I am still not convinced, with out more testing on the reformatted Events file…

Have you tested your reformated file and does the Pre New Game settings react accordinly.
How about desired Event occurrences; are the Percentages unchanged?

Please, tell us more

===

L20/M40/H60
Absolutely these figures sound great, and thanks they are in the next new test start…

I tested the Rebellion suggestion you made and yes, that also will be moved up in Classification. As you suggested…

Thanks again Oleg http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif <hr /></blockquote>JLS, whst was the result of your tests?

What is suggested here is to high L20/M40/H60 and would be a step backward.

I suggest Low 5 or 10%. Med. 20% and High 30 to 50.%
50 high only if you think players that want high option, wants to play with some extreme changes there game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Fyron

September 9th, 2003, 06:34 PM

I shall follow Oleg's lead and drop out of this events discussion, as it is obviously going nowhere fast...

Grand Lord Vito

September 9th, 2003, 06:51 PM

I really don’t want to talk about the events anymore either, but somehow it kept pooping back up http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Lets all not worry and be happy http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Lets discus something else. JLS, what about the Carrier proposal, are you going with it?

[ September 09, 2003, 17:52: Message edited by: Grand Lord Vito ]

Grand Lord Vito

September 9th, 2003, 07:22 PM

Why is mines can cloak, it they do not have that tech?

Fyron

September 9th, 2003, 07:25 PM

Because they are mines, and are invisible. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif They do not actually use cloaking devices, so you do not have to research those to get them "cloaked."

[ September 09, 2003, 18:28: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Grand Lord Vito

September 9th, 2003, 07:29 PM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Because they are mines, and are invisible. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif They do not actually use cloaking devices, so you do not have to research those to get them cloaked.So the answer is that Because they are mines.
This is why they are invisible.

What are they to small and can't be seen?

Fyron

September 9th, 2003, 08:05 PM

I don't know. They are mines. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Mines are not very useful if they can be seen, as then the enemy knows exactly where they are and how many there are.

PsychoTechFreak

September 9th, 2003, 11:28 PM

Please find some test results about high/catastrophic events on HW question:

http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=009929

I don't think fate shrine and lucky trait are buggy any more since the Last patch. It is just hard to test, because of the event distribution over races issue. One problem with this: riots and rebellions, events create new races during the game, which changes the event distribution again and again. To test this issue, you need an event file with all rebellion events removed.

JLS

September 10th, 2003, 01:32 AM

Thanks PTF.

It appears that High and Cat does not effect Home Worlds.

I will tweak the 4.b1 Beta events file accordingly.
I here you when you say �event distribution again and again�, mind boggling http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Again thank you http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ September 10, 2003, 00:32: Message edited by: JLS ]

JLS

September 10th, 2003, 02:13 AM

GLV, I am not trying to keep anyone on track. As long as you all stay within forum rules, knock yourselves out.

Productivity and fun would be preferred, what else can I say http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

JLS

September 10th, 2003, 02:41 AM

Originally posted by Grand Lord Vito:
JLS, what about the Carrier proposal, are you going with it?Test it, let me know what you think.

Try setting it up like the AICVL then go from there.

[ September 10, 2003, 01:45: Message edited by: JLS ]

JLS

September 10th, 2003, 04:21 AM

Originally posted by mottlee:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JLS:
Mottlee, your 285 turn >no warp- standard play game looks great.
The AI all seem fine and it appears you had one AI Race Spawned the Canarus Society this new Independent race surly would have show promise and contributed to this galaxy, if it not been so ruthlessly gobbled up by so treacherous of an Empire�

Your race Character is truly interesting, not to mentioning very Productive you are currently in first place and you have 92 ships with Battleships
Your opponent Eee; is in 4th with 118 Ships but only has cruisers
Systems and Planets about even with you having the advantage in Position and with many well prepared defensive positions that would make General Robert E. Lee proud.
~
~
~

Mottlee, you are in a fine possition to overpower the Eee http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Go get um....

-----
Mottlee, may I release this AIC v3.02 save for the Comunitie? It is devvloping into a great game.Go for it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif <hr /></blockquote>> House of Mottlee < (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1063160027.zip)

JLS

September 11th, 2003, 01:13 AM

AIC Players, please consider.

We have to choose!

(1) As AIC is (now) Random Events are with both Good and Bad Things
or (2) Random events that will only be bad and hurtful.

(a) This means that if you use LUCKY trait or the Cursed Trait then it defeats LUCKY to have Good events.(Good will be removed)

(b) However, if Lucky or Cursed is unlikely to be used then I will replace those Traits.(Keeping Good)

(c) Some may like Lucky in multiplayer games, this will result in fewer events (good and bad), even possibly altogether. Also reducing the Trait cost to lower then existing 500, or/to the considered 200. Cursed would go. (Keeping good and a reduced LUCKY)

= = =

Another choice on the impact to the Events may be the Fate Shrine; with Good events, again this is defeated; theoretically.

(d) If you put a lot of faith in the Fate shrine then GOOD events must go.
(e) We can remove the {Change Bad Event Chance} and add other Abilities (Keeping good)
(f) We can remove Ability altogether and leave Religious at 1500 as opposed to the considered increase to 2000.(Keeping Good)
Keeping (GOOD) will include the removal of any {Change Bad Event Chance} Urban Center subscriptions as well.

Also note:
Please also consider but lets save the actual discussion on {chance percentages} to follow this Good & Bad event choice. If GOOD Events are removed then it will be likely that a reduction in chance of: Low WILL be returned to default se4 5% and that Medium MAY be reduced from 20% to 10% or 15% � High will however most likely be set at 30%.

Your input is desired, Post here, and/or Email.

Thanks

John
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

REFERENCE
Trait Costs with the probable ADD-ON for a future AIC Version:
PVK's >Racial point balance mod< (http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=007696;p=1)

[ September 11, 2003, 02:37: Message edited by: JLS ]

JLS

September 11th, 2003, 02:18 AM

I ask that the discussion on whether we keep Medium Rebellion to be used in AIC 4.0 Events now be closed. I valued and have consumed all that has been posted and this is truly much appreciated. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Your feelings on this issue and the Data collected by our parameter tests as well as PTFs continued tests with MB's se4 Tester will be weighed and a decision will be made for AIC 4.0.

Please follow > PTFs Tests < (http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=009929)

Please Note: This is a test exercise and decorum is expected at that site http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Thank you,
John
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ September 11, 2003, 02:34: Message edited by: JLS ]

QBrigid

September 11th, 2003, 04:55 PM

What does the Fate Shrine do?

QBrigid

September 11th, 2003, 05:51 PM

Strong Not-intended-feature assumption
As far as I can remember Indepedent Nations have always been "spawnd" in AIC.

[ September 11, 2003, 17:18: Message edited by: QBrigid ]

Alneyan

September 11th, 2003, 05:56 PM

Originally posted by QBrigid:
What does the Fate Shrine do?The Fate Shrines have basically three effects:
* They reduce the chance of a sabotage in the system. (Well, not really *that* useful)
* They reduce the chance of a bad event in this system.
* They improve the happiness of the population in this system.

If I understand correctly, your question JLS is whether to include good events or not. If you include good events, the Lucky trait will decrease the chance for these events to also happen right? Or the Lucky trait/Fates Shrines are only working against bad events?

I will post my thoughts as soon as I am sure I understood you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

QBrigid

September 11th, 2003, 06:24 PM

Originally posted by Alneyan:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by QBrigid:
[qb]What does the Fate Shrine do?The Fate Shrines have basically three effects:
* They reduce the chance of a bad event in this system.
<hr /></blockquote>I see nothing wrong with this, it means more good events will happen. Why would we want to change this, I don't understand?

Alneyan

September 11th, 2003, 06:26 PM

Originally posted by QBrigid:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Alneyan:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by QBrigid:
[qb]What does the Fate Shrine do?The Fate Shrines have basically three effects:
* They reduce the chance of a bad event in this system.
<hr /></blockquote>I see nothing wrong with this, it means more good events will happen. Why would we want to change this, I don't understand?<hr /></blockquote>Oops, I wrote bad while I am not sure if the Fate Shrine is working against bad events only or any event. My mistake.

QBrigid

September 11th, 2003, 06:30 PM

Originally posted by Alneyan:
the Lucky trait will decrease the chance for these events to also happen right?I have never used the lucky trait, but I would want lucky to increase good events and cursed to increase bad events.

JLS

September 12th, 2003, 01:27 AM

Originally posted by QBrigid:

Strong Not-intended-feature assumption
QB,

What PTF is describing; basicly is a weird but interesting scenario as a byproduct of a rebellion of a Colony from a Sergetti system. That initial Rebel Sergetti Colony made agreements with the Sergetti and lived long enough to become powerful enough to build a Fleet to take out the mother Races Home World Planet defenses to control the system� Neat stuff; if you ask me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I am pleased http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ September 12, 2003, 01:13: Message edited by: JLS ]

JLS

September 12th, 2003, 02:11 AM

Originally posted by Alneyan:
If I understand correctly, your question JLS is whether to include good events or not. If you include good events, the Lucky trait will decrease the chance for these events to also happen right? Or the Lucky trait/Fates Shrines are only working against bad events?
Alneyan,

As the AIC event file is now, we play with both Good events and Bad events; possibilities.

I believe that PTF has now proved that Lucky and Cursed does in fact work, from a previous patch.

With the fact that Lucky works as a trait now and that, Good events will defeat the purpose of Lucky because; Lucky only reduces the Event percentage and not actually, reduce any certain class of an event action.

The pulse of the AIC Players is that they like Both Good and Bad events in the mix.

I feel both cannot exist any longer, so they will have to choose, with Good Events to remain in the mix, Cursed must be removed and lucky reduced as an improbable Multiplayer choice.

The fate of the Fate shrines use of CBEC is based on that above decision as well.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Fyron

September 12th, 2003, 02:19 AM

Simply rename Lucky and Cursed so they no longer have any connotations of luck. Just make it so the new "lucky" means fewer events, the new "cursed" means more events. They need not be dependant upon good and bad chances and all. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Alneyan

September 12th, 2003, 05:54 PM

Yes, that was what I believed JLS, but I hoped I was wrong this time. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

As for the Fate Shrine, you could also suppress its ability to reduce the chances for events, or even maybe give two facilities, one with this ability and the other one without (possibly linking the first one with Lucky)? That way, the player would have the choice to reduce or not the chances of both good and bad events.

For the Lucky and Cursed traits, I would say change the descriptions like Fyron said and perhaps decrease the costs of these traits. From what I saw in the events file, there are more bad events than good ones, so Lucky is still a bit positive, but not as useful as it was when there were only bad events. Lucky would then be quite similar to Emotionless, as this trait would be both an advantage and an annoyance.

In short, I would rather see the good events remain in the game than removing them to leave Lucky, Cursed and the Fate Shrines like they work in the vanilla game. My two organics worth. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

mottlee

September 12th, 2003, 07:32 PM

How about the fate = good thing to happen (if it can be done)

Alneyan

September 12th, 2003, 07:57 PM

Originally posted by mottlee:
How about the fate = good thing to happen (if it can be done)JLS said you cannot "reduce any certain class of an event action." so I gather this cannot be done. However, I am no modder so who I am to speak about the feasibility of such things. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

IF this could be done, then the best would be obviously: Lucky improves the odds for a good event, Cursed increases the odds to have a bad event, as QBrigid wrote. But given how the event file and the ability one looks like, I would say you cannot do such things. I hope I am wrong though. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

PsychoTechFreak

September 12th, 2003, 08:20 PM

Originally posted by Alneyan:
I hope I am wrong though. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I'm afraid you're not. There is no flag for good/bad in the event sets.

JLS

September 13th, 2003, 02:28 AM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Simply rename Lucky and Cursed so they no longer have any connotations of luck. Just make it so the new "lucky" means fewer events, the new "cursed" means more events. They need not be dependant upon good and bad chances and all. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Excellent

JLS

September 13th, 2003, 02:41 AM

Originally posted by Alneyan:

As for the Fate Shrine, you could also suppress its ability to reduce the chances for events, or even maybe give two facilities, one with this ability and the other one without (possibly linking the first one with Lucky)? That way, the player would have the choice to reduce or not the chances of both good and bad events.
This is doable http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

For the Lucky and Cursed traits, I would say change the descriptions like Fyron said and perhaps decrease the costs of these traits. From what I saw in the events file, there are more bad events than good ones, so Lucky is still a bit positive, but not as useful as it was when there were only bad events. Lucky would then be quite similar to Emotionless, as this trait would be both an advantage and an annoyance.
Outstanding point Alneyan, and easy to do, we just make sure there are more Bad then Good in the mix. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
What would you recommend 2 to 1?

[quote]
In short, I would rather see the good events remain in the game than removing them to leave Lucky, Cursed and the Fate Shrines like they work in the vanilla game. My two organics worth. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif It looks like some good compromises to me, which may keep every won happy�

Sounds like a Win + Win to me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

JLS

September 13th, 2003, 02:44 AM

Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Alneyan:
I hope I am wrong though. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I'm afraid you're not. There is no flag for good/bad in the event sets.<hr /></blockquote>Good point PTF, maybe se5 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

JLS

September 13th, 2003, 02:58 AM

Originally posted by mottlee:
How about the fate = good thing to happen (if it can be done)As PTF pointed out this cannot be done, their are no flags.

However, I am sure we can come up with a worthy action/ability to replace CBEC for the Fate shrine http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
What are your thoughts, Mottlee?

[ September 13, 2003, 02:00: Message edited by: JLS ]

Alneyan

September 13th, 2003, 11:34 AM

Originally posted by JLS:
Outstanding point Alneyan, and easy to do, we just make sure there are more Bad then Good in the mix. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
What would you recommend 2 to 1?
I forgot another point, the severity of the bad events is more important than for the good ones I believe. I mean, the worst events are "Planet Destruction" and "System Destruction", which destroy planet(s) and their facilities, while the counterparts of these events only create a Planet without anything or a Star. (I am not sure if the Star - Created event does create Planets in return though)

As for the ratio, 2 to 1 seems reasonable for me, it would mean that for every two bad events, there is a good event, probably less important. So suffering from these events is still going to be a drawback for the player in most cases, making sense to take the former Lucky trait.

JLS

September 13th, 2003, 11:46 PM

Originally posted by Alneyan:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JLS:
Outstanding point Alneyan, and easy to do, we just make sure there are more Bad then Good in the mix. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
What would you recommend 2 to 1?
I forgot another point, the severity of the bad events is more important than for the good ones I believe. I mean, the worst events are "Planet Destruction" and "System Destruction", which destroy planet(s) and their facilities, while the counterparts of these events only create a Planet without anything or a Star. (I am not sure if the Star - Created event does create Planets in return though)

As for the ratio, 2 to 1 seems reasonable for me, it would mean that for every two bad events, there is a good event, probably less important. So suffering from these events is still going to be a drawback for the player in most cases, making sense to take the former Lucky trait.<hr /></blockquote>Agreed http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Grand Lord Vito

September 17th, 2003, 06:07 PM

Originally posted by Alneyan:
Yes, that was what I believed JLS, but I hoped I was wrong this time. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

As for the Fate Shrine, you could also suppress its ability to reduce the chances for events, or even maybe give two facilities, one with this ability and the other one without (possibly linking the first one with Lucky)? That way, the player would have the choice to reduce or not the chances of both good and bad events.

For the Lucky and Cursed traits, I would say change the descriptions like Fyron said and perhaps decrease the costs of these traits. From what I saw in the events file, there are more bad events than good ones, so Lucky is still a bit positive, but not as useful as it was when there were only bad events. Lucky would then be quite similar to Emotionless, as this trait would be both an advantage and an annoyance.

In short, I would rather see the good events remain in the game than removing them to leave Lucky, Cursed and the Fate Shrines like they work in the vanilla game. My two organics worth. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif This is the way to go!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Grand Lord Vito

September 17th, 2003, 06:12 PM

Originally posted by JLS:
(f) We can remove Ability altogether and leave Religious at 1500 as opposed to the considered increase to 2000.(Keeping Good)
Keeping (GOOD) will include the removal of any {Change Bad Event Chance} Urban Center subscriptions as well.
I perfer (f) 1500 Religious cost. I always play Temporal and Religious in my Finite games.

oleg

September 17th, 2003, 06:42 PM

I think Religious is very powerfull in non-connected games. Usually you have ~200 turns before contact. That's 150% Homeworld value http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Well, may be not that much, 130% perhabs http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Next time I will try Religious+Organic -> Nature shrine + Replicant center! That will teach those pesky AIs http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

[ September 17, 2003, 22:00: Message edited by: oleg ]

mottlee

September 18th, 2003, 12:10 AM

Originally posted by JLS:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mottlee:
How about the fate = good thing to happen (if it can be done)As PTF pointed out this cannot be done, their are no flags.

However, I am sure we can come up with a worthy action/ability to replace CBEC for the Fate shrine http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
What are your thoughts, Mottlee?<hr /></blockquote>?? I have yet to try my hand at modding SE this is something I would like to try any pointers as to a start in this endevor?

JLS

September 18th, 2003, 03:01 AM

Originally posted by oleg:
I think Religious is very powerfull in non-connected games. Usually you have ~200 turns before contact. You can warp out in about 30 turns at Stellar Manipulations 1.

If you holding back your warp to prepare or just being xenophobic in nature, and the Eee or any one of the Engineering races are in the game and close by; you will have no choice when they may come knocking in on you earlier then 20 years into your game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

That's 150% Homeworld value http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Well, may be not that much, 130% perhabs http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
This explains our recent exchange in Emails http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif your suggestion on reducing level 5 Climate Control Facility to se4 level 3 costs http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif > I liked your suggestions and they are definitely in for AIC v4.0. Most of the other Planet Utilization costs also have been addressed with some slight adjustment or another for v4.0 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Next time I will try Religious+Organic -> Nature shrine + Replicant center! That will teach those pesky AIs http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif If this is a no-warp game, you will need to warp out and brave this new universe early; to fully capitalize with that Organics race growth potential http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Oleg, thank you for that Refugees image, it is awesome!

[ September 18, 2003, 02:20: Message edited by: JLS ]

JLS

September 18th, 2003, 03:10 AM

Originally posted by mottlee:
I have yet to try my hand at modding SE this is something I would like to try any pointers as to a start in this endevor?To Modify and grow; is to Experiment and Explore the {your} Options.

. And this is why I am fond and do relate with Olegs, Fyrons, GLVs and Sun Devils passions, they are mine, as well http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ September 18, 2003, 03:50: Message edited by: JLS ]

JLS

September 18th, 2003, 06:29 AM

OK, here are my thoughts on the fate of the fate shrine.
Religious will remain at 1500 cost and there will not be a CBEC for that facility.

Now in beta for AIC v4.0
Yes on the Expanded (good and bad) events file to include Olegs structure for his proposed integrity for the Maximum Severity options

Now with the added events the occurrences also with/if 6+ total in-game players;Events seem to be less frequent, then stock se4 events.
Therefore, the chance setting will be increased over past settings. Perhaps as much as L30/M50/H75 possibly, even higher for Med or High frequency settings http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

The AI will recieve a -30 to -50+ CBEC on the main CC as a further savegaurd for its HS.

Now to balance this and to expand on Alneyan's suggestion, the Human Players now have:

Research Tech based on �Veneration�

In addition, all Human Players will receive a Hero Epics Tale, if you will for their civilizations, I am beta testing this now for AIC 4.0. This is for any Human Player that may want to tailor their current in-game Events occurrences for their game and or that specific system

Please note Heroes Epics names are examples for this beta, if anyone is offended or would like to suggest a Hero from another culture please post.

========
Reference

TechArea added
Name := Veneration
Group := Applied Science
Description := Civilization Heros, Idols and Gods dabble with the events.
Maximum Level := 5
Level Cost := 1000
Start Level := 1
Raise Level := 0
Racial Area := 7
Unique Area := 0
Can Be Removed := False
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Human Balance Tech
Tech Level Req 1 := 1

--------
Facility added
Name := Heroes Epic Ra
Description := Civilization Heros, Idols and Gods dabble with the events.
Facility Group := Population Support
Facility Family := 291
Roman Numeral := 1
Restrictions := None
Pic Num := 36
Cost Minerals := 100
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 0
Number of Tech Req := 2
Tech Area Req 1 := Veneration
Tech Level Req 1 := 1
Tech Area Req 2 := Human Balance Tech
Tech Level Req 2 := 1
Number of Abilities := 1
Ability 1 Type := Change Bad Event Chance - System
Ability 1 Descr := Decreases the chance of any events in this system 20%(only 1 facility per system effective).
Ability 1 Val 1 := -20
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0

Name := Heroes Epic Dionysus
Description := Civilization Heros, Idols and Gods dabble with the events.
Facility Group := Population Support
Facility Family := 291
Roman Numeral := 2
Restrictions := None
Pic Num := 36
Cost Minerals := 200
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 0
Number of Tech Req := 2
Tech Area Req 1 := Veneration
Tech Level Req 1 := 2
Tech Area Req 2 := Human Balance Tech
Tech Level Req 2 := 1
Number of Abilities := 1
Ability 1 Type := Change Bad Event Chance - System
Ability 1 Descr := Decreases the chance of any events in this system 30% (only 1 facility per system effective).
Ability 1 Val 1 := -30
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0

Name := Heroes Epic of Chullain
Description := Civilization Heros, Idols and Gods dabble with the events.
Facility Group := Population Support
Facility Family := 291
Roman Numeral := 3
Restrictions := None
Pic Num := 36
Cost Minerals := 300
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 0
Number of Tech Req := 2
Tech Area Req 1 := Veneration
Tech Level Req 1 := 3
Tech Area Req 2 := Human Balance Tech
Tech Level Req 2 := 1
Number of Abilities := 1
Ability 1 Type := Change Bad Event Chance - System
Ability 1 Descr := Decreases the chance of any events in this system 40%(only 1 facility per system effective).
Ability 1 Val 1 := -40
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0

Name := Heroes Epic Hera
Description := Civilization Heros, Idols and Gods dabble with the events.
Facility Group := Population Support
Facility Family := 292
Roman Numeral := 1
Restrictions := None
Pic Num := 36
Cost Minerals := 100
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 0
Number of Tech Req := 2
Tech Area Req 1 := Veneration
Tech Level Req 1 := 2
Tech Area Req 2 := Human Balance Tech
Tech Level Req 2 := 1
Number of Abilities := 1
Ability 1 Type := Change Bad Event Chance - System
Ability 1 Descr := Inreases the chance of any events in this system 5%(only 1 facility per system effective).
Ability 1 Val 1 := 5
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0

Name := Heroes Epic Grania
Description := Civilization Heros, Idols and Gods dabble with the events.
Facility Group := Population Support
Facility Family := 292
Roman Numeral := 2
Restrictions := None
Pic Num := 36
Cost Minerals := 200
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 0
Number of Tech Req := 2
Tech Area Req 1 := Veneration
Tech Level Req 1 := 3
Tech Area Req 2 := Human Balance Tech
Tech Level Req 2 := 1
Number of Abilities := 1
Ability 1 Type := Change Bad Event Chance - System
Ability 1 Descr := Inreases the chance of any events in this system 10%(only 1 facility per system effective).
Ability 1 Val 1 := 10
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0

Name := Heroes Epic of Hades
Description := Civilization Heros, Idols and Gods dabble with the events.
Facility Group := Population Support
Facility Family := 292
Roman Numeral := 3
Restrictions := None
Pic Num := 36
Cost Minerals := 300
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 0
Number of Tech Req := 2
Tech Area Req 1 := Veneration
Tech Level Req 1 := 4
Tech Area Req 2 := Human Balance Tech
Tech Level Req 2 := 1
Number of Abilities := 1
Ability 1 Type := Change Bad Event Chance - System
Ability 1 Descr := Inreases the chance of any events in this system 20%(only 1 facility per system effective).
Ability 1 Val 1 := 20
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
--------

AI Players CC
Name := Cultural Center
Description := The developed homeland of a space-age civilization, roughly continental in size, including hundreds of cities, parks, infrastructure, arts, religions, sciences, industry, etc.
Facility Group := Zenith Urban Center
Facility Family := 54
Roman Numeral := 0
Restrictions := None
Pic Num := 10
Cost Minerals := 300000
Cost Organics := 200000
Cost Radioactives := 200000
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := AI Balance Tech
Tech Level Req 1 := 1
Number of Abilities := 20
Ability 1 Type := Solar Resource Generation - Minerals
Ability 1 Descr := Population Center...
Ability 1 Val 1 := 1125
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Solar Resource Generation - Organics
Ability 2 Descr :=
Ability 2 Val 1 := 350
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Ability 3 Type := Solar Resource Generation - Radioactives
Ability 3 Descr :=
Ability 3 Val 1 := 300
Ability 3 Val 2 := 0
Ability 4 Type := Point Generation - Research
Ability 4 Descr :=
Ability 4 Val 1 := 700
Ability 4 Val 2 := 0
Ability 5 Type := Point Generation - Intelligence
Ability 5 Descr :=
Ability 5 Val 1 := 150
Ability 5 Val 2 := 0
Ability 6 Type := Cargo Storage
Ability 6 Descr :=
Ability 6 Val 1 := 15000
Ability 6 Val 2 := 0
Ability 7 Type := Change Bad Event Chance - System
Ability 7 Descr :=
Ability 7 Val 1 := -50
Ability 7 Val 2 := 0
Ability 8 Type := ~~~
--------

Se4 Abilities/Action

Change Bad Event Chance - System
Value1 = Percentage change in chance for bad event for entire system (+/- percentage).
Value2 =

[ September 18, 2003, 05:35: Message edited by: JLS ]

Fyron

September 18th, 2003, 06:33 AM

Originally posted by mottlee:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JLS:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mottlee:
How about the fate = good thing to happen (if it can be done)As PTF pointed out this cannot be done, their are no flags.

However, I am sure we can come up with a worthy action/ability to replace CBEC for the Fate shrine http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
What are your thoughts, Mottlee?<hr /></blockquote>?? I have yet to try my hand at modding SE this is something I would like to try any pointers as to a start in this endevor?<hr /></blockquote>Try SE4 Modding 101 Tutorial (http://galileo.spaceports.com/~kazharii/ModdingTutorial.html) as a guide to get you started. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif It does not say anything about AIs (well, almost nothing http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ), but does start you off on most of modding.

JLS, you might want to fix those ability descriptions prior to release... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ September 18, 2003, 05:35: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

JLS

September 18th, 2003, 06:52 AM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Try SE4 Modding 101 Tutorial (http://galileo.spaceports.com/~kazharii/ModdingTutorial.html) as a guide to get you started. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif It does not say anything about AIs (well, almost nothing http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ), but does start you off on most of modding.
It is a great tool and I refer to it frequently
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

JLS, you might want to fix those ability descriptions prior to release... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif As you posted, however to remember when the product is finished is another quest altogether http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ September 18, 2003, 05:53: Message edited by: JLS ]

mottlee

September 18th, 2003, 02:34 PM

Thanks....Will give it a read http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

oleg

September 18th, 2003, 03:56 PM

Originally posted by JLS:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by oleg:
I think Religious is very powerfull in non-connected games. Usually you have ~200 turns before contact. You can warp out in about 30 turns at Stellar Manipulations 1.

... Oleg, thank you for that Refugees image, it is awesome!<hr /></blockquote>Welcome http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I prefer Middle-Age galaxies, Cluster type is too artificial too my liking. In MiddleAge map I seldom have a system inside 30 LY radious and earlier reserch of SM II is too costly IMHO.
I prefer to research Computers/Industry and colonization techs before that. Astrography is an important factor here.

oleg

September 18th, 2003, 04:01 PM

Great ! This Veneration stuff is awesome. Gives a lot of material for roleplaying your race http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Alneyan

September 18th, 2003, 04:49 PM

You can warp as early as 2,5 years (including the actual production of the ship), if you only research Ship Construction, Astrophysics and Stellar Manipulation. Obviously, you will be in a LOT of trouble if the system in which you has just opened a warp is inhabited by a Bersecker, Aggressive species. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif (I tend to research Mines and build a hundred of them on the future warp point, but is that enough to prevent from an early offensive? I mean, in the third or fourth year)

I do like this Veneration tree, the players will know be able to choose between being protected against events (but not having good events), or suffering from these events and having a good event from time to time. I wonder if there will be players that won't build these facilities though. As for the events chances, I would second you on increasing the odds for the High setting. When you pick this setting, you do want events to occur, don't you? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif (And of course, 90 is supposed to mean almost an event each turn, but all these events should not target a single Empire.)

Additionally, I would like to ask you a few questions JLS as I am playing a No-Warp game of AIC. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
* How the reproduction formula is working now? I couldn't find this information anywhere. And what about the Organic facilities increasing reproduction rates? (The Unknown Facility, perhaps Cloning Centers, are "producting" an additionnal million of settlers each turn, but I don't know how are working the others now)
* Can the AI use all the stellar components? I usually feel embarassed when taking advantages of these, when the AI might be not using then. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
* Finally, are you supposed to be able to build a Starliner without a Population module? Instead of using this component, you could build a Basic Life Support and a Cargo Bay (to have a cargo space of 1025) which costs almost no organic.

My apologizes if these questions have already been raised. (And it is likely the case)

oleg

September 18th, 2003, 05:11 PM

Originally posted by Alneyan:
* Finally, are you supposed to be able to build a Starliner without a Population module? Instead of using this component, you could build a Basic Life Support and a Cargo Bay (to have a cargo space of 1025) which costs almost no organic.

I usually build such starliners for intra-system shipping. Population module allows you to fit supply bay and extend the range to the next system. Granted, it does not mater if you don't mind ships drift with speed 1 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Alneyan

September 18th, 2003, 05:16 PM

Originally posted by oleg:
I usually build such starliners for intra-system shipping. Population module allows you to fit supply bay and extend the range to the next system. Granted, it does not mater if you don't mind ships drift with speed 1 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Well, I suppose supplies are an important factor when the distance is quite far actually (An average Starline has 520 supplies and uses 36 supplies each turn, so you can travel for one year and a half before running out of supplies) I have to admit I have the nasty habit of creating nodes quite close one to the others, so it is usually not a matter for me, at least in the beginning. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

oleg

September 18th, 2003, 05:31 PM

Another argument is if you always have to spend ornacis on starliners, Organic races will receive very big advantage.

Try to play with supply penalties, it makes game ,hmm, interesting http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Alneyan

September 18th, 2003, 05:34 PM

Originally posted by oleg:
Another argument is if you always have to spend ornacis on starliners, Organic races will receive very big advantage.

Try to play with supply penalties, it makes game ,hmm, interesting http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif And the other point is that close warp points speed up the process of colonizing other systems, but also speed up any invasion. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif (It is quite annoying when an invading fleet made its way through four systems to your homeworld in a single turn http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif )

I will try to play with this trait, perhaps now supplies will be much harder to find hmm... But before that, I need to be able to play AIC AND survive. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

JLS

September 18th, 2003, 08:48 PM

Originally posted by mottlee:
Thanks....Will give it a read http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Mottlee if you have any questions post or Email, we would be happy to participate and help http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

That is what I did; I think I drove PvK nuts at times http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Actually as I recall, Last year I sent him an Email with word that was 3 pages long http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif he is truly a good sport http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ September 18, 2003, 19:52: Message edited by: JLS ]

JLS

September 18th, 2003, 10:05 PM

as Originally posted by oleg:

In MiddleAge map I seldom have a system inside 30 LY radious and earlier reserch of SM II is too costly IMHO.
Agreed, although AIC facilitates the Open Warp opportunity at level One and two, it does require an increased investment to back door a distant opponent from a higher levels http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
With some additions of new maps, and with QB along with others recommending that initial open warp radius to be increased by 1 LY for AIC 4.0 it is proposed.
AIC 4.0 proposed changes
SM I ~ Increased from 3 LY to 4 LY - AI Players has no opertunities.
SM II ~ Increased from 5 LY to 6 LY - AI player also at 6 LY.
SM III ~ Equals se4 first Open Warp of 10 LY - AI Players also at 10 LY

In addition, some Players may prefer to play AIC No-Warp with the [Technology Cost] start option to LOW for a change in pace. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
- - - -

I usually build such starliners for intra-system shipping. Population module allows you to fit supply bay and extend the range to the next system.
Granted, it does not mater if you don't mind ships drift with speed 1
Clarification AIC Star Liners move at Speed:
Small StarLiner starts at Speed 2 then Speed 3 at Quantum Engines I. Cargo Potential is 1100kt
Medium StarLiner Speed 2 with Contra Engine I then Speed 3 at Quantum Engines I. Cargo Potential is 2100kt
Large StarLiner has Speed of 2 With Photon Engine I then Speed 3 at Quantum Engines I. Cargo Potential is 3100kt

In addition, with Propulsion Experts also as one of your trait all speeds will be increased by one sector traveled
- - - -

Another argument is if you always have to spend ornacis on starliners, Organic races will receive very big advantage.
Agreed; and to also consider, this to offset by the condition that the Organic Races only have one Replicant Center that reproduces at one pop per turn as opposed to the three levels in se4
- - - -

Great ! This Veneration stuff is awesome. Gives a lot of material for roleplaying your race
Thanks, it still needs to be refined and tested in conjunction with the final Events file. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ September 18, 2003, 21:54: Message edited by: JLS ]

oleg

September 18th, 2003, 10:38 PM

Originally posted by JLS:
...
Clarification AIC Star Liners move at Speed:
Small StarLiner starts at Speed 2 then Speed 3 at Quantum Engines I. Cargo Potential is 1100kt
Medium StarLiner Speed 2 with Contra Engine I then Speed 3 at Quantum Engines I. Cargo Potential is 2100kt
Large StarLiner has Speed of 2 With Photon Engine I then Speed 3 at Quantum Engines I. Cargo Potential is 3100kt

...[/QUOTE]

Oh, no, that my comment was about building cheap starliners with no Pop. module that can make long travels with speed 1 instead of 2 because of "auto speed =1 when out of gas" SE feature.

I don't think it can be rectified but I am perfectly happy with current AIC starliner design.

JLS

September 18th, 2003, 10:57 PM

Originally posted by oleg:
I am perfectly happy with current AIC starliner design.Thanks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ September 19, 2003, 00:20: Message edited by: JLS ]

mottlee

September 18th, 2003, 10:57 PM

Actually as I recall, Last year I sent him an Email with word that was 3 pages long he is truly a good sport

LOL I will remember that http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif (you too when i send YOU a 3 pager http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

JLS

September 19th, 2003, 12:29 AM

as Originally posted by Alneyan:

You can warp as early as 2,5 years (including the actual production of the ship), if you only research Ship Construction, Astrophysics and Stellar Manipulation. Obviously, you will be in a LOT of trouble if the system in which you has just opened a warp is inhabited by a Bersecker, Aggressive species. (I tend to research Mines and build a hundred of them on the future warp point, but is that enough to prevent from an early offensive? I mean, in the third or fourth year)
100 Minefield is solid against the AI; until that, AI Player acquires many destroyers and certainly a few Fighter Carrier's of any nature in a fleet that would attempt a pass thru your minefield.

It is always wise to have a Mixed bag of Satellites to help defend along with your Minefield. Certainly with this AI, and as with playing against Human Players; you will be the constent need to shore up this static defensive position with a Fleet, Carriers, Fighters and Bases even Drones at your ready; as time passes and your opponent also gets stronger http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
~ ~ ~
With AIC 4.0 as discussed earlier; the AI Player will have less effect with mines and will be subjected to more of our cruelty http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

It is also planed to Implement Suicides Junkies suggestions in regards to Mines in general. However the trusty Human Player Minesweeper will still be in play
- - - -

I do like this Veneration tree, the players will know be able to choose between being protected against events (but not having good events), or suffering from these events and having a good event from time to time. I wonder if there will be players that won't build these facilities though. As for the events chances, I would second you on increasing the odds for the High setting. When you pick this setting, you do want events to occur, don't you?

(And of course, 90 is supposed to mean almost an event each turn, but all these events should not target a single Empire.)
Thank you. However, please pat your self on the back Alneyan; this was based from your premise http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

With out the CBEC on their CC for the NON-Religious Human Players Home System, this may have some interesting results if the Hero�s Epic is not used.

Agreed 90 for high, it may just be AIC 4.0 High Event setting, the Human Player can throttle this back with a heroes Epic, if and where desired. This also may be a good setting for the SP Human Player that wishes to start with 18 plus total in-game Players.
Other wise Medium of 50 will give a good and moderate frequency for events that also could be throttled up with a heroes Epic, if and where desired
- - - -

Additionally, I would like to ask you a few questions JLS as I am playing a No-Warp game of AIC.
* How the reproduction formula is working now? I couldn't find this information anywhere. And what about the Organic facilities increasing reproduction rates? (The Unknown Facility, perhaps Cloning Centers, are "producting" an additionnal million of settlers each turn, but I don't know how are working the others now)
This is a good is a good question�
O my Heroes Epic http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif it will take a lot of recall to put all this in perspective. We did discuses this many months ago I will put together a rudimentary presentation together. With that, I do expect you to pick it apart http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif so we all can address some of the modifiers. How we perceive they may quantify and how one facility may now supercede that facility but that�s ok because the superceded facility has this neat thing that may benefit all. However, this is only as long as that facility is built, but then again, if or when this is done the modifier will be ~ http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif ~
- - - -

* Can the AI use all the stellar components? I usually feel embarassed when taking advantages of these, when the AI might be not using then.
Absolutely, do what you will http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif With the exception of WARP CLOSE; the AI Players handles most stellar Manipulations very well, in AIC�
Actually, it gets upsetting when they convert that asteroid to a planet and then rush their colonizers to them. When you see an AI Planet Creators in your Asteroid belts, start building Colonizers. Alternatively, just attempt to capture a few if the prize warrants this.

Additionally, for example, your static defenses have been constructed and well prepared for some time now then all of a sudden some Science or Engineering AI Player opens a back door and alas, the flood gates are now opened; with this the may-day klaxons are sounded for the total recall of the fleet to protect the mother land

If you plan on Blowing up one of their Planets or a Star with tectonics; you will barely have enough time to do this with most or their older and well established systems, and it is very doubtful you will succeeded at the AI Players Home System.
In addition, as the game progresses it will become more and more difficult for the unscrupulous Human Player to Systematically close your friendly and trusting AI Players Warp Points, and Late in the game it may be come difficult to open alternate warp points to their Systems.

This list can continue but lets save a few more surprises for you; from this AI

* Finally, are you supposed to be able to build a Starliner without a Population module? Instead of using this component, you could build a Basic Life Support and a Cargo Bay (to have a cargo space of 1025) which costs almost no organic.
Yes, there are a few configurations for the Star Liner Hull.

1: For Population Transport and comfort: With the Pop Module that will also serve as the ships Life Support.
Please Note: Population Module is designed with a cost intent as to demand the need to establish Organic-farming Planets to continue and/or accelerate your growth.

You may have 1 Supply Storage or even better most players install 1 Solar Collector with this you will travel almost any distence or add some additional Cargo space there may even be a few more options as well.
AIC 4.0 will also introduce a RAM Scoope http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

2: As a freighter: With no Pop Module installed and just the basic Life Support installed; you have all the options above. With the benefit of 975kt to nearly 3000kt of minimum cargo space (depending on Starliner Hull size) to haul any freight without the mounting costs of Organics from the Pop Modules�

Transport Hulls, with the right Cargo tech level and for the right price, make for a great Population carrier. They will also get you there much faster.

Sat, Mine Layers and Dome Launchers that are not tasked; also make for a great Cargo Ship.

[ September 19, 2003, 00:57: Message edited by: JLS ]

JLS

September 19th, 2003, 01:00 AM

Originally posted by mottlee:
Actually as I recall, Last year I sent him an Email with word that was 3 pages long he is truly a good sport

LOL I will remember that http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif (you too when i send YOU a 3 pager http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif I will look forward to this Mottlee http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

JLS

September 19th, 2003, 02:10 AM

Originally posted by Alneyan:
(It is quite annoying when an invading fleet made its way through four systems to your homeworld in a single turn http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif )
Did you open warp points over your Home World http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

The AI Player uses the same engines as the Human Player, and basicly Travels at the same speed with most of its warships.

There are a few ships for example: Colonizers and Transport that have been given or have retained default speeds so they may make way thru Black Holes and other stellar obstacles more efficiently http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

oleg

September 19th, 2003, 04:19 AM

Originally posted by JLS:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Alneyan:
(It is quite annoying when an invading fleet made its way through four systems to your homeworld in a single turn http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif )
Did you open warp points over your Home World http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

<hr /></blockquote>That is a part of roleplaying the non-connected game I think. You have no idea about any aliens, you just build a new and fascinating device. Of course you would try iton low Earth Orbit http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Only a true paranoic would tow it to Mars first http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I certainly won't - I just can't wait another month to see if the bloody thing - that costs a fortune - works http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

JLS

September 19th, 2003, 04:30 PM

Yes, that is a typo in the description, and is a result of me making changes when tweaking a previous release and not changing that description accordingly.

Makinus thanks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Good eye, if you find any more description off; please post or Email so I may be sure this was attended to for AIC v4.0. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

John

JLS

September 19th, 2003, 04:56 PM

Originally posted by oleg:
Only a true paranoic would tow it to Mars first http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif I see what you mean.

However, opening warps a to a few opponents that leads back no mater how many systems, directly over your Home World only makes for a Last stand and that will be so much easer for your opponent and less time for you to recover or even diplomacy; as your HW may become Blockaded or even captured. With few to no options left. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Not to mention if this was just a recon in force from a friendly AI Player, the damage is done, he did not know what was on the other side of that Last warp, tif he could only say �well sorry about our ships attacking your Home World� >�it not to late for a trade agreement is it� http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

If you open Warps over your Home World and then stack Warp points in other system; theoretically your opponents can attack in one turn from the other side of the map to your Home World in one turn with no worry about its fuel supply.
Repeating the worst case, but very possible scenarios above.

As it is today with some successful military doctrines, you may consider a blocking, diVersions, and or holding actions. Before contact and well before your opponent can approach your best terrain.
= = =
A possible strategy; but may come back to bite you. With first contact, maybe if we give a new friendly or serine AI Player the copy of your Home System Charts, as a token. He may avoid your HS with a large force if it knows what it is, this may be worth a try if you find that the above scenarios may come into play http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ September 19, 2003, 16:18: Message edited by: JLS ]

oleg

September 19th, 2003, 05:19 PM

I know it, but it surely spice up the game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

JLS

September 19th, 2003, 05:41 PM

It surly does, Oleg http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Actually, most of us do it as well. I think http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

It cuts travel time so much for me; I sometimes forget that it will make ease for my rivels, as well http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

[ September 19, 2003, 16:51: Message edited by: JLS ]

JLS

September 19th, 2003, 05:52 PM

>>>above maps are good for No Warp Games or without ALL WPs connected) ---

This implies that; other AIC data is optimized for these maps with or with out the above setting of No-Warp and/or without ALL WPs connected for your new game.
~You may also regenerate the AIC-CENTURION RUINS map with the above settings for a no-warp game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

All maps that are located below from that menu; play similar to se4 or the maps you may be used to regardless of whether it is a no warp game or not, because the AIC SM III warp opener is at the same location on the Tech Tree and same as default of 10 LY, as the se4 first warp opener.
~ ~ ~

Now with above said, and considering Opening Warps over your Home Planet. Try this setting when starting a new game quad map ALL WPs connected { off } and then No Warp Points { ON } as this WILL absolutely change most if not all the AI Players strategies/methodologies http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif and may somewhat change your new system warp opening methods/strategies as well.

= = = =

In addition, for those of you that have not played this style of just a ALL WPs connected { off } game with >>>above maps are good", please give it a try; it is an interesting alternative from the basic standard or no-warp games http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ September 19, 2003, 17:40: Message edited by: JLS ]

oleg

September 19th, 2003, 06:16 PM

Yes, but I simply like MiddleAge type maps. Clusters do not feel "real" and SpiralArm tends to have very short interstellar distances. It is by design, I know, but I just prefer random MiddleAge maps. I am perfectly happy with all types and just express my preferences. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

JLS

September 19th, 2003, 06:19 PM

Absolutely I agree, Oleg. My favorite map has always been PvK�s Semi-Standard Proportions map http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

= = =
With �>>>above maps are good for No Warp Games or without ALL WPs connected� does; is help me tweak the AI Players better and to set up some boundaries that will applie inherently, to most default no-warp and or without ALL WPs connected new game starts, that�s all. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Reference
PvK�s Proportions Semi-Standard quad map

Name := Semi-Standard
Description := Slightly different from sidereal, with a few more special systems.

[ September 19, 2003, 17:34: Message edited by: JLS ]

Alneyan

September 19th, 2003, 06:39 PM

Thanks for your answers JLS. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

100 Minefield is solid against the AI; until that, AI Player acquires many destroyers and certainly a few Fighter Carrier's of any nature in a fleet that would attempt a pass thru your minefield.

It is always wise to have a Mixed bag of Satellites to help defend along with your Minefield. Certainly with this AI, and as with playing against Human Players; you will be the constent need to shore up this static defensive position with a Fleet, Carriers, Fighters and Bases even Drones at your ready; as time passes and your opponent also gets stronger
~ ~ ~
With AIC 4.0 as discussed earlier; the AI Player will have less effect with mines and will be subjected to more of our cruelty

It is also planed to Implement Suicides Junkies suggestions in regards to Mines in general. However the trusty Human Player Minesweeper will still be in play Yes, I was asking about the beginning of the game, after twenty years the very same minefield might be not exactly enough against an enemy fleet composed of sixty cruisers. And when you are using a network of warp points, all connected to your Homeworld, then you should also add more defenses just in case. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Thank you. However, please pat your self on the back Alneyan; this was based from your premise

With out the CBEC on their CC for the NON-Religious Human Players Home System, this may have some interesting results if the Hero�s Epic is not used.

Agreed 90 for high, it may just be AIC 4.0 High Event setting, the Human Player can throttle this back with a heroes Epic, if and where desired. This also may be a good setting for the SP Human Player that wishes to start with 18 plus total in-game Players.
Other wise Medium of 50 will give a good and moderate frequency for events that also could be throttled up with a heroes Epic, if and where desired *Pats himself on the back* *Must look like quite ludicrous* If a player is not happy with the settings used, he/she could change them I suppose. Even I is able to do so, so anyone should be able to tweak these values. *Smirks*

This is a good is a good question�
O my Heroes Epic it will take a lot of recall to put all this in perspective. We did discuses this many months ago I will put together a rudimentary presentation together. With that, I do expect you to pick it apart so we all can address some of the modifiers. How we perceive they may quantify and how one facility may now supercede that facility but that�s ok because the superceded facility has this neat thing that may benefit all. However, this is only as long as that facility is built, but then again, if or when this is done the modifier will be ~ ~ I am not sure if I did understand your meaning there. Does it mean you will put a (sort of) description, expecting harsh criticisms? Do not worry, I am really kind. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I do not have issues with the current reproduction formula, I was merely curious. The problem might be with the Organic facilities though, but as Oleg seems to like these ones, he will be more suited to speak about such matters.

Absolutely, do what you will With the exception of WARP CLOSE; the AI Players handles most stellar Manipulations very well, in AIC�
Actually, it gets upsetting when they convert that asteroid to a planet and then rush their colonizers to them. When you see an AI Planet Creators in your Asteroid belts, start building Colonizers. Alternatively, just attempt to capture a few if the prize warrants this.

Additionally, for example, your static defenses have been constructed and well prepared for some time now then all of a sudden some Science or Engineering AI Player opens a back door and alas, the flood gates are now opened; with this the may-day klaxons are sounded for the total recall of the fleet to protect the mother land

If you plan on Blowing up one of their Planets or a Star with tectonics; you will barely have enough time to do this with most or their older and well established systems, and it is very doubtful you will succeeded at the AI Players Home System.
In addition, as the game progresses it will become more and more difficult for the unscrupulous Human Player to Systematically close your friendly and trusting AI Players Warp Points, and Late in the game it may be come difficult to open alternate warp points to their Systems.

This list can continue but lets save a few more surprises for you; from this AI Hmm I see, then I will no longer feel compassion with the AI and deploy all my power with any weapon at my disposal. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif It will be nasty for an AI to open a warp point right behind my main battlegroup, just next to the node leading to all my systems in no more than a month. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif We will see what will happens in my current game, in which this time I seem to be doing fine (or rather, I am no longer doing poorly)

Additionally, as I am speaking of a full war against the AI, does the AI know how to use Intelligence well? Some projects would seem to be more powerful now than in vanilla SE:IV, like, for instance, the ones targeting population or the conditions of a given planet. That could be quite nasty, if they are still available.

As for my "plan" on connecting all warp points together, I was actually playing a *very* over-confident race, which was a bit less arrogant when their homeworld fall to enemy hands. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

On a more pragmatic point of view, doing such a thing has many pros as you mentioned, but the "little" drawback is that your Homeworld is so much more exposed to an enemy assault. (Except if you are using the facilities to prevent the opening of a warp point in all your systems save one, but you would have to be *very* patient to do so.)

Perhaps one could think of using a planet, not too far from your Homeworld, as a hub, linked to every other system? You would still be quite vulnerable, but at least your Homeworld could not fall in a single turn. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Finally, is warping requires a movement point or no?

*Returns plotting against these Empires, lost somewhere in the universe, hidden in their little systems* http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

JLS

September 19th, 2003, 07:52 PM

as Originally posted by Alneyan:

*Pats himself on the back* *Must look like quite ludicrous* If a player is not happy with the settings used, he/she could change them I suppose. Even I is able to do so, so anyone should be able to tweak these values. *Smirks*
Please, define your opinion here http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I may be misunderstanding you.

The reply, as is now; yes. That any player can now attempt to change events {chance occurrences) in his/her Systems, if desired by Him or her. And that it is also to say him or her will not be locked in by just the start up options chance settings, as in past se4 or Mods. This is a good thing isn�t it?

For example http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif in a no-warp game, and you are feeling lucky.

Lets say that from one of your remote newly colonized systems, would or could connect to a another system or even a large unexplored cluster of systems; only if you had a that SM tech. As a player you now may build Hero�s Epic that has a better the chance for that system to OPEN a new warp by (EVENT).
Sure the Gods are fickle and they may totaly destroy that newly colonized system http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif or maybe grant you 40 Refugees instead http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

This is what the Heroes Epic it is meant to be about

- - - -

I am not sure if I did understand your meaning there. Does it mean you will put a (sort of) description, expecting harsh criticisms? Do not worry, I am really kind.

I do not have issues with the current reproduction formula, I was merely curious.
My post was not that well defined, my apologies.

I have no worries http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I look forward and do expect some input from you. Actually, I will be disappointed in you if there was none http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

There is a lot to it and it was getting late Last night.
As I said I would; I have been putting together that rudimentary presentation together this mourning in-between Posts etc.
This will be done soon.
- - - -

The problem might be with the Organic facilities though, but as Oleg seems to like these ones, he will be more suited to speak about such matters.
OK http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

However, I am concerned you found an �Organics problem�.
Please elaborate

-----

Hmm I see, then I will no longer feel compassion with the AI and deploy all my power with any weapon at my disposal. It will be nasty for an AI to open a warp point right behind my main battlegroup, just next to the node leading to all my systems in no more than a month. We will see what will happens in my current game, in which this time I seem to be doing fine (or rather, I am no longer doing poorly)
Exactly, once you get the unfamiliar economics� and new mechanics down you will be ready for a Low Bonus Game
- - - -

Additionally, as I am speaking of a full war against the AI, does the AI know how to use Intelligence well? Some projects would seem to be more powerful now than in vanilla SE:IV, like, for instance, the ones targeting population or the conditions of a given planet. That could be quite nasty, if they are still available.
In regards to the IntelProjects. Other then the addition of AIC Psychic Intel and a few other minnor changes, yes.
With the actual se4 Intel module; this AI offensively plays {basicly} the same.

However again, you just lit a light bulb, I am going to play around with a few more possible Intel options.
- - - -

is warping requires a movement point or no?
[QUOTE]

The actual warp, no.
Movement to thay sector of the next system, yes.

Perhaps one could think of using a planet, not too far from your Homeworld, as a hub, linked to every other system? You would still be quite vulnerable, but at least your Homeworld could not fall in a single turn.

*Returns plotting against these Empires, lost somewhere in the universe, hidden in their little systems* Agreed, at the least this may may give the; Impulsive or Neutral and Certainly the Friendly and Serine demeanord AI Player a chance to decide {are you friend or foe} if first contact is made via a new Connecting systems Warp point, other then just dumping on your HW.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ September 19, 2003, 19:17: Message edited by: JLS ]

Alneyan

September 19th, 2003, 08:13 PM

As originally posted by JLS

Please, define your opinion here I may be misunderstanding you.

The reply, as is now; yes. That any player can now attempt to change events {chance occurrences) in his/her Systems, if desired by Him or her. And that it is also to say him or her will not be locked in by just the start up options chance settings

For example http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif in a no-warp game, and you are feeling lucky.

Lets say that from one of your remote newly colonized systems, would or could connect to a another system or even a large unexplored cluster of systems; only if you had a that SM tech. As a player you now may build Hero�s Epic that has a better the chance for that system to OPEN a new warp by (EVENT).
Sure the Gods are fickle and they may totaly destroy that newly colonized system or maybe grant you 40 Refugees instead

This is what the Heroes Epic it is meant to be about Sorry, I was really obscure. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I meant that a player could change the odds for an event in the settings.txt file, if he or she wasn't happy with the values you choose for AIC 4.0

Yes, these shrines are exactly there to alter the odds for events in both ways. It depends if you are willing to take quite a risk or not. (Even a Warp Point Opened event can be more harmful than, say, if your outpost was destroyed, if this particular warp point leads right into a system owned by an aggressive species whose fleet is twice as powerful as your own. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif )

My post was not that well defined, my apologies.

I have no worries I look forward and do expect some input from you. Actually, I will be disappointed in you if there was none

There is a lot to it and it was getting late Last night.
As I said I would; I have been putting together that rudimentary presentation together this mourning in-between Posts etc.
This will be done soon. You should not worry, I am pretty sure there will be feedback, either praise or criticisms, or both for that matter. I have to admit I could not find the settings affecting the reproduction formula in the data files as for now.

Exactly, once you get the unfamiliar economics� and new mechanics down you will be ready for a Low Bonus Game When I am able to stand my ground against a single AI, I will try with a Low Bonus AI. (And later perhaps even a desesperate game, erh, in a few years then lest the game is an onslaught, although this could be fun. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )

In regards to the IntelProjects. Other then the addition of AIC Psychic Intel and a few other minnor changes, with the se4 Intel module this AI offensively plays {basicly} the same.

However again, you just lit a light bulb, I am going to play around with a few more possible Intel options. I didn't point this thing on purpose though. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif (I am not playing much with Intelligence usually, I will have to research Intelligence in my current game to remind what are the available projets, although I am not a Psychic)

The actual warp, no.
Movement to thay sector of the next system, yes. Hmm, then I am even more vulnerable than what I believed in my worst nightmares. Perhaps a change of stragegy might be useful. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Alneyan

September 19th, 2003, 08:21 PM

Incidentally, I would second JLS's suggestion to try at least once a No Warp Point game. I only played with such settings a few days ago with AIC, and I have to say these games are as or even more enjoyable than the regular ones. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif It might not suit your tastes, but you do not have much to lose in trying. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

JLS

September 19th, 2003, 08:44 PM

As originally posted by Alneyan:

I meant that a player could change the odds for an event in the settings.txt file, if he or she wasn't happy with the values you choose for AIC 4.0

Yes, these shrines are exactly there to alter the odds for events in both ways. It depends if you are willing to take quite a risk or not. (Even a Warp Point Opened event can be more harmful than, say, if your outpost was destroyed, if this particular warp point leads right into a system owned by an aggressive species whose fleet is twice as powerful as your own.
Actually if you follow the Posts every one has a voice, for example, you remarked on 90% as High http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

On the flip side, what risk is there if one would want the Hero that may actually reduce an events; you will reduce the chances and as you say RISK also the possible beneficial events http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

In regards to the Possibilities, it is fair to say that this is not yet possible in se4, and this will offer another option to the Human Players that play AIC.

How can this be a bad thing?
- - - -

You should not worry, I am pretty sure there will be feedback, either praise or criticisms, or both for that matter. I have to admit I could not find the settings affecting the reproduction formula in the data files as for now.
OK http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

However, I am still unsure and concerned of the specific "Organics Facility Problem� you are referring to? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif

Is it a programming error on my part?
Or is it something conceptual you do not understand?
Please elaborate.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ September 19, 2003, 19:50: Message edited by: JLS ]

Alneyan

September 19th, 2003, 08:55 PM

Originally posted by JLS:
Actually if you follow the Posts every one has a voice, for example, you remarked on 90% as High http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

On the flip side, what risk is there if one would the Hero that may actually reduce an event; you will reduce chance and as you say RISK; other then a possible beneficial event http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

In regards to the Possibilities, it is fair to say that this is not yet possible in se4, and this will offer another option to the Human Players that play AIC.

How can this be a bad thing? Did I gave the impression I thought it was a bad thing? If so, then I was even more unclear than what I thought.

Using the Heroes is indeed a choice, if you prefer to play "safely" and then use them, but you won't have the good events (or potentially good events, as some events can be either good or bad under different circumstances). On the other hand, you could take a chance in NOT using these Heroes, and then everything could happen from a "Oops, your main system has just been destroyed by a Nova along with your fleet" to a "The warp point the invading fleet was planning to use as just been closed by strange forces". http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

As I am speaking of such events, you mentioned a Warp Opened event. Is this one working? I remember a post which stated that this one wasn't working with vanilla SE:IV at least. Events are quite hard to grasp in SE:IV and, well, random as they are supposed to be. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

However, I am still unsure and concerned of the specific "Organics Facility Problem� you are referring to? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif

Is it a programming error on my part?
Os it something conceptual you do not understand?
Please elaborate. Sorry, I didn't see you edited your message a few Posts back as I answered before your edit then.

I spoke about a possible problem with these facilities improving the reproduction rates. (Gestation Vats and Medical Labs namely) I am not sure of the exact effect of these ones with AIC, and how they are working with Homeworlds which have the "Population will reproduce in this system faster" ability. I will wait for the formula to actually understand how these facilities are working. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif (I am currently playing an Organic and Crystalline race)

Hopefully I should be less obscure this time.

[ September 19, 2003, 20:00: Message edited by: Alneyan ]

PsychoTechFreak

September 19th, 2003, 09:53 PM

JLS, I guess it could be addressed already. What about these kind of events:

Type := Planet - Conditions Change
Severity := Medium
Effect Amount := -20

Which changes a mild planet into deadly in one turn. It looks like this effect is ten times more destructive than expected. Do you plan to change them effect amount-wise ?

Like:

Type := Planet - Conditions Change
Severity := Medium
Effect Amount := -2

JLS

September 19th, 2003, 10:33 PM

You are talking of the 4.01 Events file test a few weeks ago.

Yea, that event was droped a few weeks ago, with Events v4.02 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I am testing AIC Events v4.05 now http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Cantains:

Type := Planet - Conditions Change
Severity := Low
Effect Amount := -5
Message To := ~

Type := Planet - Conditions Change
Severity := High
Effect Amount := 10
Message To := ~

I am still considering keepings the AIC v3.02-:
Type := Planet - Conditions Change
Severity := Catastrophic
Effect Amount := -10
Message To := ~

What are your thoughts?
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ September 19, 2003, 21:44: Message edited by: JLS ]

JLS

September 19th, 2003, 10:49 PM

As originally posted by Alneyan:

Using the Heroes is indeed a choice, if you prefer to play "safely" and then use them, but you won't have the good events (or potentially good events, as some events can be either good or bad under different circumstances). On the other hand, you could take a chance in NOT using these Heroes, and then everything could happen from a "Oops, your main system has just been destroyed by a Nova along with your fleet" to a "The warp point the invading fleet was planning to use as just been closed by strange forces".
Please consider, that the Heroes Epic is for an individual System. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Change Bad Event Chance - System
Value1 = Percentage change in chance for bad event for entire system (+/- percentage).
Value2 =

Based on our scenarios, I could (or not) have the Hero that further lowered the chance in the Home System as to further avoid that Star Destroyed and on that remote and newly colonized system wanting to reach for another Star, I WOULD want a Hero to increase the chance of that system; preferably, the open warp event http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
- - - -

As I am speaking of such events, you mentioned a Warp Opened event. Is this one working? I remember a post which stated that this one wasn't working with vanilla SE:IV at least. Events are quite hard to grasp in SE:IV and, well, random as they are supposed to be.
From the origonal AIC events file to AIC 3.2 released now, the open warp event does work fine, in a standard game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

However, I also assume (only) it works with no-warp games, you may have a point http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

In addition, I am unsure if it will with this scenareo.
The System Gravitational Shield now prevents warp points closing within the system. This prevents warp points closing into or out of the system by all players.
~ ~ ~
In addition, I beleave MM se4 has fixed the Errors below from past history.
~The Rare error on warp command execution.
~You cannot open a warp point into the same system that it
originates from.
- - - -

(I am currently playing an Organic and Crystalline race)
Excellent choice, it also mine; when I am in a competitive LAN game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ September 20, 2003, 00:39: Message edited by: JLS ]

PsychoTechFreak

September 19th, 2003, 10:53 PM

Hmm, let's see,

Alneyan wrote:

The values for the conditions and their meanings:
0.0-0.2: Deadly
0.3-0.4: Harsh
0.5-0.9: Unpleasant
1.0-1.2: Mild
1.3-1.4: Good
1.5: Optimal
The effect amount 10 would be still too much, I guess. I assume the effect amount is divided by 10 which means a 1.0 Mild planet would be reduced to 0.0 Deadly. In my opinion, one event should not do more than one step in one turn. That means, the max. effect amount should be not more than 4.

JLS

September 19th, 2003, 11:00 PM

OK, in the least we will be going with the �5 and the +10 Planet - Conditions Change event.

With the additions of more good and beneficial events, removing the �10 is further still warranted. Agreed, PTF http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

= =
Also, proposed for AIC v4.0:

The level 4 Climate Control Facility will increace to +6
The level 5 Climate Control Facility will increace to +12

[ September 20, 2003, 00:24: Message edited by: JLS ]

JLS

September 20th, 2003, 12:33 AM

originally posted by Alneyan:

I spoke about a possible problem with these facilities improving the reproduction rates. (Gestation Vats and Medical Labs namely) I am not sure of the exact effect of these ones with AIC, and how they are working with Homeworlds which have the "Population will reproduce in this system faster" ability. I will wait for the formula to actually understand how these facilities are working.
I here you, it is mind boggling to me even now, as well. I wish I saved my notes. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

This is what I meant Last night this would be a lot to recall; Thanks for the opportunity and I will resume�

This will be just AIC Organic and generic AIC Facilities.
This will include your home system with the Agrarian Cultural Centers also to include a system without the Initial Home AIC Agrarian Cultural Center.
As the application apply and may or not interact or interface amongst each other.
Characteristics & Cultural Modifiers

Orgaincs Race Facilities in AIC
~Medical Lab
~Gestation Vats
~Replicant Center
~Planet Lore
Organic Generation Facility
Organics Generation Settlement
Organics Generation Colony
Organics Generation Center
~Macrobiotic City
~Agrarian Cultural Center

Non Organic; AIC Facilities that may contribute to Population Growth for yor current game.
~Climate Control Facility
~Urban Pacification Center
~Citizen Databank Complex
~Intelligence Agency
~System University Complex
~Bio Med Facility
~Agrarian Society
~Agrarian Ecosystem
~Cities
~City of Crystal
~Megalopolis
~Metropolis
~World Cultural Center
~Population Center
~Crystal Race Cultural Center

~ Denotes this may Effect Reproduction when built or scraped. One must also consider that when scraped you will lose any inherent positive effects that Facility may offer also when one builds a facility from the same family for example Gestation Vats III just for the sole purpose to increase Reproduction that this upon completion will make Gestation Vats I and II obsolete as it applies to Reproduction.

However, when one builds the Gestation Vats or an Agrarian Cultural Center this will not yield the Agrarian Ecosystem or a Medical Lab obsolete on that Planet or that System, please right click the facility and make your choices well, you will be confronted with many.

Culture Centers and some Urban Centers will yield an Initial bonus for reproduction when playing AIC. Therefore, if you have Priorities, surly a reproduction facility can wait until you wish to commit some planets facility slot in that system, if you decide at all, considering you have this inherent bonus from other Urban Center. If any Planets reproduction information is also desired; you will notice this on that planets info screen http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

In addition, most Racial level 2 support Facility, certainly level 3; will have an increased benefit of any one inherent bonus you may expect from your AIC Urban Center.

= = =

Characteristics & Cultural Modifiers will effect Reproduction Values with your Empire Setup.

Reproduction Value: Every percentage point you increase your reproduction increase the planets reproduction by one percentage point. So if you choose 110% reproduction a typical planet could increase its reproduction from 10% to 20%. Thus what seems like a 10% improvement (100% to 110%) is actually a 100% improvement. A 5% change in Environmental Resistance equates to a 1% change in Reproduction and Happiness. If you set both ER and Reproduction down, your population may never be able to grow. Population will reproduce based on their reproduction rate (per year) and this rate is affected by their happiness, their environmental resistance and the planet conditions. Each turn is 0.1 years and is defined as a game �month�. (Reproduction rate per turn) = (reproduction rate per year) / 10. The amount of new population increase per turn = (population amount) x (reproduction rate per turn) or 1M, whichever is greater. Therefore you always get at least 1M increase per turn. Exception: reproduction rate can go to 0% if planet conditions are �Deadly�. Note that if there is more than one race of population on a planet, you get a minimum increase of 1M of each race per turn.T he actual condition of the Planet Colonized effects reproduction rate. Happiness affects resource production, construction rate, and reproduction Population will not reproduce when in cargo on a ship or base. They only reproduce when on a planet. Plagued planets have 0% reproduction rate, and get large happiness penalties each turn they are plagued. Enemy ships in your Systems Derectly and inderectly effect reproduction. AIC Starliner Concept as it relates to organic costs and for the Organic race; the abundance of this resource http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

= = =

To be told however, as a ~TIP~. Namely, The Gestation Vats will yield the HIGHST level of a Reproduction Modifier when playing AIC, but will not yield any System Happiness or System Plague Prevention, as you would receive form the Medical Labs or the immense attributes the Players receive from an advanced Urban Center or Culture Center, when playing AIC http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

On a final note: There is no Facility equaled to the se4 or AIC >Replicant Center, as it applies to the direct impact of your Populations augment.
= = = = = = = =
To all:
With any of my Posts that may of sounded patronizing, I apologize and is unintentional.
Some times when I reply, I add other information you may know, or may not want, I try to also post for all that may be interested.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ September 20, 2003, 03:03: Message edited by: JLS ]

Makinus

September 20th, 2003, 01:41 AM

i has looking the AI Campaign alterations in the data files and found that the Towns facility have the description that it can hold 5kt of Org and Rad, while the ability value only set it to 3kt. Is this correct?

Fyron

September 20th, 2003, 04:06 AM

Reproduction Value: Every percentage point you increase your reproduction increase the planets reproduction by one percentage point. So if you choose 110% reproduction a typical planet could increase its reproduction from 10% to 20%. Thus what seems like a 10% improvement (100% to 110%) is actually a 100% improvement. Erm...

Every percentage point you increase your reproduction increases the planet's reproduction rate by one percentage point.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

JLS

September 20th, 2003, 04:20 AM

Thanks Fyron http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

It did sound like the planet was increasing.

RATE does better explain http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ September 20, 2003, 03:44: Message edited by: JLS ]

Alneyan

September 20th, 2003, 10:53 AM

Yes, I would support the removal of the -10 event which could be quite annoying on a Homeworld. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif (Only a Good or an Optimal Planet would not go Deadly with this event)

As for the population, I will run a few tests with AIC, as I would believe the reproduction rates are ten times lower in AIC than in the vanilla game. (Which means reproduction only occurs at the end of each year instead of each month) But I am not sure how the +x% of reproduction rate is working, and I am not even sure if my obversations are really correct and acurate.

Finally, as for the Heroes, they will need a facility slot I gather? Then it will make the decision a bit harder as you will lose a valuable slot which could have been used for, say, decreasing Maintenance in this system. (Or perhaps I am the only one who is ever lacking open slots for facilities? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ) I do like them. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

JLS

September 20th, 2003, 03:29 PM

Yes, I would support the removal of the -10 event which could be quite annoying on a Homeworld. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif (Only a Good or an Optimal Planet would not go Deadly with this event)
Partial Event Recap:

Some have said that the low severity vanilla se4 �5 will put a planet to deadly Conditions.

Some have said that the vanilla se4 Climate Control will never help a Planet out of deadly rendering a planet useless for the entire game.

One has suggested leaving the traditional AIC �10 and removing the vanilla se4 Star Destroyed that is even more sever then a deadly planet, because many feel that Home World Planets rarely get hit by Events.

Many have said your stating HW Planet will never be hit by High and Cat events EVER.

Some have said Home Systems as it relates to the System where your stating HW Planet is located; may lack se4 inherent protections from the Event System Destroyed.

Some have said that if you add other events as in AIC 2.0; even (mild) Catastrophic ones, that odds of being hit with a from Star Destroyed is greatly reduced.

= = =
The decision to remove some of the AIC redundant BAD events, is so when additional AIC redundant Good events are added the Event Occurrences Percentages may be more manageable. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

We need some more positive Ideas for good events.

What are some thoughts for some good events, to be added?
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ September 20, 2003, 15:03: Message edited by: JLS ]

Alneyan

September 20th, 2003, 04:00 PM

I can answer to your first two questions. A -5 event may reduce some Homeworld to Deadly level, or, rather:

0.0-0.2: Deadly
0.3-0.4: Harsh
0.5-0.9: Unpleasant
1.0-1.2: Mild
1.3-1.4: Good
1.5: Optimal

According to this chart, all Harsh planets will be Deadly (with a value of 0.0) while half the Unpleasant planets will become Deadly (with a value between 0.0/0.1 and 0.2) The other ones will simply see their conditions drop. Granted, a -5 or a -20 event on an Upleasant planet (with a value of 0.5) will be equally as destructive. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

However, you have mentioned the possibility to add +8% and +16% conditions improvement facilities. If so, you would need only eight years with the latest facility to go from Deadly (0.0/0.1) to Harsh (0.3) compared to 39 years with the regular +3% facility of the vanilla game. And of course, you could still add a few additional facilities to speed up the process.

As for these events, well... They are only appalling when they target your Homeworld. If that is a matter to you, perhaps you could add a condition improvement ability on the regular Cultural Centers but just for the Homeworld? (Unlike the Religious CC, whose ability is working on the whole system) That is, only if you fear this might be an issue. But as there will also be Heroes reducing strongly the odds of events, you may think of leaving the -10 event. (I forgot to mention these Heroes when speaking of these events before) Your choice there. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Good events are another matter, as far as I know, there are more bad events than good ones available, is that right JLS? It would make adding such events quite hard. I will give it a thought nevertheless. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

JLS

September 20th, 2003, 04:18 PM

Originally posted by Alneyan:

However, you have mentioned the possibility to add +8% and +16% conditions improvement facilities. If so, you would need only eight years with the latest facility to go from Deadly (0.0/0.1) to Harsh (0.3) compared to 39 years with the regular +3% facility of the vanilla game. And of course, you could still add a few additional facilities to speed up the process.
Alneyan, the proposed decision to raise the conditions level 4 and 5 improvement facilities to +6 and +12, is in fact solely based from your time consuming research and should assist in raising most Planet levels to optimal. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

AIC Players have benefited from this when we consider the Cultural Centers on an AIC Homeworld has only 3 logical free slots available and only 2 when one is a natural Merchant that prospers with that additional HW CC.

This we all will appreciate

Thanks
That was excellent work http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

John
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ September 20, 2003, 15:29: Message edited by: JLS ]

JLS

September 20th, 2003, 04:49 PM

Originally posted by Alneyan:
possibility to add +8% and +16% conditions improvement facilities. If so, you would need only eight years with the latest facility to go from Deadly (0.0/0.1) to Harsh (0.3) compared to 39 years with the regular +3% facility of the vanilla game. And of course, you could still add a few additional facilities to speed up the process.
Actually, your +8 and +16 sounds even better.

What do the players feel a realistic number would be, based on a difficult case scenario (HARSH HW) on a HW having 3 slots to be used and with the final slot the player would temporarily replace the Planets SY, after he builds some BSY�s of course. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Proposed Climate Control Facility levels:

Climate Control Facility I = +1
Climate Control Facility II = +2
Climate Control Facility III = +4
Climate Control Facility IV = +8
Climate Control Facility V = +16

Results:
3 Vanilla se4 Climate Control level III = +9
3 AIC Climate Control level V = +48

AIC now with only 3 Climate Control Facility V now has the numbers of a Medium Planets worth of 16 Vanilla se4 Climate Control III�s.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ September 20, 2003, 15:51: Message edited by: JLS ]

Alneyan

September 20th, 2003, 04:50 PM

Oh, the aforementioned tests were not that long to do, the longest part was the writing of the Posts. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif (And the correction of my mistakes that is)

Hmm as it is +12 (and not +16 as I thought, don't ask me why), you will need 10 years instead of 8 years to go from Deadly to Harsh. Not too bad. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif And 24 years to go from the lowest value (Deadly 0.0/0.1) to the highest (Optimal 1.5), while 24 years were just enough to go from Deadly to Harsh with a +5 facility. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Well, for your new proposal, +48 means you could go from Deadly to Optimal in no more than seven years, if you consider all the facilities are built the same year. If you add such facilities, then you should indeed leave the -10 event. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif (It also means 4 or 5 years depending on the value to go from Harsh to Optimal)

*Stops playing with figures and resumes his game of AIC no-warp instead*

(Edited because of a mistake with numbers, I forgot a year each time. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif )

[ September 20, 2003, 15:55: Message edited by: Alneyan ]

JLS

September 20th, 2003, 04:53 PM

Originally posted by Alneyan:
*Stops playing with figures and resumes his game of AIC no-warp instead*No http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif ... come back; I want to talk some more http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ September 20, 2003, 15:54: Message edited by: JLS ]

Alneyan

September 20th, 2003, 05:02 PM

Originally posted by JLS:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Alneyan:
*Stops playing with figures and resumes his game of AIC no-warp instead*No http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif ... come back; I want to talk some more http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif <hr /></blockquote>That's asked so nicely. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif (But I could do both at the same time though) *Pities the poor ones who might have to try to catch up the thread* *Smirks*

[ September 20, 2003, 16:04: Message edited by: Alneyan ]

JLS

September 20th, 2003, 05:10 PM

Great http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
I am working on the Reproduction replys, now http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

You have many, very strong points http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

PsychoTechFreak

September 20th, 2003, 07:04 PM

Originally posted by JLS:
OK, in the least we will be going with the ?5 and the +10 Planet - Conditions Change event.

With the additions of more good and beneficial events, removing the ?10 is further still warranted. Agreed, PTF http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Agreed. I reconsider, one of the cat events is planet core instability. With that in mind, a catastrophic -10 effect on conditions is still a nightmare, but it is still much better than core instability. You see, I am not sure what I want...

Finally, as for the Heroes, they will need a facility slot I gather? Then it will make the decision a bit harder as you will lose a valuable slot which could have been used for, say, decreasing Maintenance in this system. (Or perhaps I am the only one who is ever lacking open slots for facilities? [[Wink]] ) I do like them. [[Smile]] I recall an implemented "use facility" switch in the command line, but it does not work. An on/off toggle switch for facilities would be a nice SE5 feature also, very useful for mining facilities in limited resources games.

Many have said your stating HW Planet will never be hit by High and Cat events EVER. I will never say that again, it can be reproduced easily with a 2 system galaxy, one player, F12 button test and a reduced events.txt to get only core and plasma instabilities. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Fyron

September 20th, 2003, 07:14 PM

Some have said that the vanilla se4 Climate Control will never help a Planet out of deadly rendering a planet useless for the entire game. That is wrong. The planet will eventually come out of deadly, it just takes a lot of time. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

JLS

September 20th, 2003, 07:40 PM

As for the population, I will run a few tests with AIC, as I would believe the reproduction rates are ten times lower in AIC than in the vanilla game. (Which means reproduction only occurs at the end of each year instead of each month)
Agreed, AIC in not modeled exactly like vanilla se4 in many ways.
As with this instance, yes; for a Population census; AIC does check the Reproduction frequency on a yearly basis http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
- - - -

But I am not sure how the +x% of reproduction rate is working, and I am not even sure if my obversations are really correct and acurate.
Benchmarked with all characteristics at default of 100%, Neutral Culture, Human Player, Organic Race (All else is at defaults)

With Vanilla, se4 your starts will be about 10% and at any start will increase only as per the Planets Condition.
If one was able, to start with the Vanilla se4 Gestation Vats III then it may be only 13% reproduction rates, and at any start will increase only as per the Planets Condition.

However with AIC and without Gestation Vats, your start should be about 13% and at any start will increase only as per the Planets Condition.
If one was able, to start with the AIC Gestation Vats III then it may be 16% reproduction rates, and at any start will increase only as per the Planets Condition; for example good, mild or Optimal http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

With above true.
= = = = =

Now as a simple test for others to prove AIC Cutures Centers do have the a +x factor on the Home Planets reproduction rate if desired.

Lets test this with a benchmark of all characteristics at default of 100%, Neutral Culture, Human Player and Organic Race (All else is at defaults)
Start game and review planet

We now have reproduction Rate x%
Now please delete all Agrarian Culture Centers only and you will find that (x) has just been reduced by one.
After noting this, please delete all Culture Centers from the HW Planet, you will find a further reduction from (x) of one. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

As you can see it does work http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

It was actually much easier than what I initially believed, each facility is increasing the annual reproduction rate of the planet by X% and that is basically all. (A planet with a reproduction rate of 10% means 15% with the best facility for example)
You got it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Now we can raise the AIC default base of Empire Starting Percent Reproduction of 11, to anything with in reason. If players would prefer for example 15% as a base, this will add more spice v4.0. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

This would increase the above (x) numbers by 4%.

What are your thoughts?

[ September 20, 2003, 19:31: Message edited by: JLS ]

JLS

September 20th, 2003, 08:22 PM

Many have said your stating HW Planet will never be hit by High and Cat events EVER.
~ ~ ~ ~

Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:
I will never say that again, it can be reproduced easily with a 2 system galaxy, one player, F12 button test and a reduced events.txt to get only core and plasma instabilities. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif PTF, do you now pool your voice with players that may believe that actual High and Catastrophic events DO affect the Human Players Home World Planet ?

This would be contrary to your initial finding from: <a href="http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=009929;p=7" target="_blank">Are homeplanets affected by high/catastrophic events?
</a>

At 90% event Chance: and with a practical least of more then 1 player in your test; result was:
Homeplanet name: Arianna I (has not been affected by high/catastrophic events within the first 1250 turns)


[ September 20, 2003, 19:39: Message edited by: JLS ]

PsychoTechFreak

September 20th, 2003, 08:42 PM

Originally posted by JLS:
PTF, do you now pool your voice with players that may believe that actual High and Catastrophic events DO affect a Human Players Home World?

This would be contrary to your initial finding from <a href="http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=009929;p=6" target="_blank">Are homeplanets affected by high/catastrophic events?
</a>I have to. Yesterday I performed some single player quick tests (2 systems) with weird results. The very first run (high frequency) has not shown even one event within 100 years. But from the 2nd run on (with different event frequencies, but everything else remained the same) all of them ended with homesystem star destroyed within the first 10 years. If there would be a hardcoded homesaver, this should not have happened. In some cases, which seem to be dependend on some unknown random start situation of the program, the homeworlds are safe from high/cat events, like in my 800 year simulation. Probably some day we find this unknown start setup... It could be a kind of easteregg subprocedure from MM, that sometimes is active, sometimes not.

Alneyan

September 20th, 2003, 08:45 PM

JLS, as events are a really weird thing, perhaps we should try to set a few tests in different conditions to see what happens? (A test with Low chance for an event, another with Medium and High, yet another with two systems and two human players, another with 255 systems and 20 empires and so on) I mean, there are so many weirdness with the events that we might consider *every* possibility. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif (And of course, all these tests should use the same file just in case) Hopefully we might make sense of all these contradictory results. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif (Like the case of 0.0 with the planet conditions for instance)

As for the reproduction rate, yes I did understand afterwards. I have to admit I expected something much more complicated. I am even quite disappointed. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Joking apart, what do you think about the Reproduction ability? Am I the only one who thinks it is too cheap to raise from 100 to 110? (And perhaps also Environemental Resistance)

And as for a raise of the basic reproduction rate, hmm, very good question indeed. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I would say yes, as reproduction is only really useful on well populated worlds (above a billion of inhabitants), as a reproduction value of 10% means an inhabitant each month for a world which has 100 million settlers. (So the minimal value) You do need quite a few inhabitants before the reproduction value is important. *Will ponder on the topic* http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Fyron

September 20th, 2003, 08:56 PM

Environmental Resitance is not too cheap... it takes 5% in it to get a 1% bonus to reproduction and happiness. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

JLS

September 20th, 2003, 08:59 PM

Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:
I recall an implemented "use facility" switch in the command line, but it does not work. An on/off toggle switch for facilities would be a nice SE5 feature also, very useful for mining facilities in limited resources games.
PTF, are you saying that in your opinion this Ability does not work?

Change Bad Event Chance - System
Value1 = Percentage change in chance for bad event for entire system (+/- percentage).
Value2 =

This is basicly how the Fate shrine and the Heroes Epic Facility is laid out.

[ September 20, 2003, 19:59: Message edited by: JLS ]

Fyron

September 20th, 2003, 09:01 PM

No, that is not what he said at all. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif He was more talking about a way to turn a facility on or off without having to scrap and rebuild it.

JLS

September 20th, 2003, 09:27 PM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
No, that is not what he said at all. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif He was more talking about a way to turn a facility on or off without having to scrap and rebuild it.Thanks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Sorry and Good point PTF, I will keep the cost down so "scrap and rebuild" will be near insignificant http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ September 20, 2003, 22:59: Message edited by: JLS ]

JLS

September 20th, 2003, 09:31 PM

Originally posted by Alneyan:

JLS, as events are a really weird thing, perhaps we should try to set a few tests in different conditions to see what happens? (A test with Low chance for an event, another with Medium and High, yet another with two systems and two human players, another with 255 systems and 20 empires and so on) I mean, there are so many weirdness with the events that we might consider *every* possibility. (And of course, all these tests should use the same file just in case) Hopefully we might make sense of all these contradictory results. (Like the case of 0.0 with the planet conditions for instance)
Agreed, if one wants to publish a serious test finding, then a benchmark with parameters must be established and agreed upon by some majority; first http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Then secondly and most of all; not influenced until that test is completed and published. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Would all not agree?

Also to say, I very much do concur and agree with PTFs initial test results from the High/Cat Thread http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
Home World is less likly to be effected by high and Cat events.
His Lucky versus Cursed results
AIC having to many rebellions from the v4.01 events files; at 90% Chance considerer

Although I would have preferred a 40% test, I have found PTF�s test very successful and informative, and to date many tendencies I may have in regards to the Events file adjustments will be subject from his Initial Test.

Alneyan, it would truly be appreciated if you would run some tests of your own, with varying and logical in-game parameters as PTF did with his 90% 4 Player test, if time would permit you.
- - - -

what do you think about the Reproduction ability? Am I the only one who thinks it is too cheap to raise from 100 to 110? (And perhaps also Environemental Resistance)
Concerning Charicterteristic, Culture and Trait costs, and their modifiers AIC will be implementing PvK�s Traits Balance mod, PvK has put a lot of time and thought into this and I do expect much of this to be integrated into AIC.

Considered discussion really should be based on this.

Obviously all cannot be used or totally intact, but as a tool to start any project with, it is my opinion there can be no finer.

>PvK's Traits Balance Mod< (http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=007696)
- - - -

And as for a raise of the basic reproduction rate, hmm, very good question indeed. I would say yes, as reproduction is only really useful on well populated worlds (above a billion of inhabitants), as a reproduction value of 10% means an inhabitant each month for a world which has 100 million settlers.
Agreed
- - - -

You do need quite a few inhabitants before the reproduction value is important.
*Will ponder on the topic*
This is intentional for AIC and we would like to consider any real effect on this, that may alter its integrity http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ September 20, 2003, 23:29: Message edited by: JLS ]

Alneyan

September 20th, 2003, 09:46 PM

For the reproduction characteristic, its cost to increase seems to be 50 points in the PvK balance mod, that is cheaper than in AIC. Granted, I will keep such criticisms from when you have done adapting PvK Balance Mod for AIC 4.0 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif (A very... erh... balanced mod incidentally) And yes, to have low reproduction on not very populated worlds is intentional for Proportions and AIC.

As for the events, well, chances settings have been reported to alter the results, but is that pure randomness (not likely) or is there something hidden there? At least, I believe we can all agree Homeworlds *can* be targeted by events under certain circumstances at least? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

But how unfrequent would it be with Heroes and the new events file for AIC 4.0, with numerous Empires? I fear there will be a lot of testing and tweaking with regards to these events, except if someone manages to find out the way they are working. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif (Of course, if you need me for testing something, I would gladly do so. As long as you don't ask me to do actual modding. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif )

JLS

September 20th, 2003, 09:47 PM

Veneration was presented with {Can Be Removed := False} as such so players may add the proposals to there existing AIC v3.02 as in a way they may utilize and play with it.

However in the Released Version, {Can Be Removed := TRUE} will be the setting and as such Players may remove Veneration from the [Technology allowed Menu] in that game.
In other words, the Heroes Epic can be removed from a multiplayer game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Reference
Name := Veneration
Group := Applied Science
Description := Civilization Heros, Idols and Gods dabble with the events.
Maximum Level := 5
Level Cost := 1000
Start Level := 1
Raise Level := 0
Racial Area := 7
Unique Area := 0
Can Be Removed := True
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Human Balance Tech
Tech Level Req 1 := 1

[ September 20, 2003, 20:48: Message edited by: JLS ]

JLS

September 20th, 2003, 10:19 PM

BUMPED for Edit:

Originally posted by Alneyan:

JLS, as events are a really weird thing, perhaps we should try to set a few tests in different conditions to see what happens? (A test with Low chance for an event, another with Medium and High, yet another with two systems and two human players, another with 255 systems and 20 empires and so on) I mean, there are so many weirdness with the events that we might consider *every* possibility. (And of course, all these tests should use the same file just in case) Hopefully we might make sense of all these contradictory results. (Like the case of 0.0 with the planet conditions for instance)
Agreed, if one wants to publish a serious test finding, then a benchmark with parameters must be established and agreed upon by some majority; first http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Then secondly and most of all; not influenced until that test is completed and published. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Would all not agree?

EDIT:
Also to say, I very much do concur and agree with PTFs initial test results from the High/Cat Thread http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
Home World is less likly to be effected by high and Cat events.
His Lucky versus Cursed results
AIC having to many rebellions from the v4.01 events files; at 90% Chance considerer

Although I would have preferred a 40% test, I have found PTF�s test very successful and informative, and to date many tendencies I may have in regards to the Events file adjustments will be subject from his Initial Test.

Alneyan, it would truly be appreciated if you would run some tests of your own, with varying and logical in-game parameters as PTF did with his 90% 4 Player test, if time would permit you.

Again one more time, I want to thank PTF for his time with that test, we all did get much from it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Fyron

September 20th, 2003, 10:52 PM

Except that recent findings show that his whole first test game might be invalid... what with the total randomness of some games having tons of events and some having almost none with his latest tests. It is possible that that first game fell into the "almost none" Category (stretched for 90% events occurance, of course...). Do not discount the bizarre nature of computer random mathematics. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ September 20, 2003, 21:52: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

JLS

September 20th, 2003, 11:25 PM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Except that recent findings show that his whole first test game might be invalid... what with the total randomness of some games having tons of events and some having almost none with his latest tests. It is possible that that first game fell into the "almost none" Category (stretched for 90% events occurance, of course...). Do not discount the bizarre nature of computer random mathematics. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif What you speak is true, and valued, as you and I have discussed in recent http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ September 20, 2003, 22:26: Message edited by: JLS ]

JLS

September 20th, 2003, 11:32 PM

[For the reproduction characteristic, its cost to increase seems to be 50 points in the PvK balance mod, that is cheaper than in AIC. Granted, I will keep such criticisms from when you have done adapting PvK Balance Mod for AIC 4.0 (A very... erh... balanced mod incidentally) And yes, to have low reproduction on not very populated worlds is intentional for Proportions and AIC.
Actually Pvks MOD as you see posted; is based for a se4 interface and hence based on Population Mass := 5

So as for Proportions and AIC; they have a base of Population Mass :=1000 and if I am not mistaken P&N the original and mother of all Population scaled MODS had a base Population Mass :=750

So adaptations will have to made for AIC and yes you in-put will absolutely be needed.

It is fair to be said, your Posts here on the AIC to date all have been tough and to the point, and all of have been FAIR.

So when you say I will keep such criticisms from when you have done

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

My reply is; we will value your input now and not after the Airplane has left the ground, if you know what I am attempting to say here. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
- - - -

As for the events, well, chances settings have been reported to alter the results, but is that pure randomness (not likely) or is there something hidden there? At least, I believe we can all agree Homeworlds *can* be targeted by events under certain circumstances at least?
I will agree on this: I have found a lot of disagreement, thru out the forum in regards to events.

In my mind, there is only one way to balance your Events file to the results you desire for a mod.
That is to play/test your Events file in real time with real average setups and keep testing and log game after game, until you are happy with the results.

Then put it thru an AI test to see conformity If you are happy, release it to friends and then listen carefully to the feed back.

If you have faith in PTF�s test as I do, you would say it is unlikely for High/Cat Planet events to affect the Homeworld. However, I would like to see more and with different and varying parameters.

It is agreed that in all circumstances that a Home System cannot dodge a Star Destroyed event in your se4 game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif
A CBEC of -99% for the Home System may help remedy this and will certainly stop all inter Planet Events. In addition to this it may also contribute little for game play with-in the big picture http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
- - - -

But how unfrequent would it be with Heroes and the new events file for AIC 4.0, with numerous Empires? I fear there will be a lot of testing and tweaking with regards to these events, except if someone manages to find out the way they are working.
This how I been applying my free time, balancing the newly reordered and with additional good events in conjunction with this past weeks introduction of the Hero�s Epic.
~
In regards to dispersed events true, this is dependent on total Players.

The Occurrence Percentages is by the pre-game Chance settings also to be considered is the actual total of events that could be selected in the Events file.

The Heroes Epic will apply only to chance in that System, as did the Fate shrine.

However, if the Systems Event fails the CBEC dice roll, I am unsure where it goes at that point.
If anyone has this information, please post.
- - - -

(Of course, if you need me for testing something, I would gladly do so. As long as you don't ask me to do actual modding. )
I sure can use your help, and this is exactly what you will be doing (actual modding)
In the short time, I have known you, you have influenced several changes, and we all appreciate that.

So lets make it happen http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ September 20, 2003, 23:27: Message edited by: JLS ]

Fyron

September 21st, 2003, 01:09 AM

P&N has a population mass of 20...

Alneyan

September 21st, 2003, 01:45 AM

It was actually much easier than what I initially believed, each facility is increasing the annual reproduction rate of the planet by X% and that is basically all. (A planet with a reproduction rate of 10% means 15% with the best facility for example)

However, isn't Reproduction too cheap to buy then? You only need 1000 points for having 110 in your Reproduction ability, which means a +10% increase of your reproduction rates. That is twice as efficient as the Organic facilities, and you do not even need to do researches or to build facilities. (On the other hand, every point after 110 costs 200 points, and this cost seems fine for me)

You will lack the Replicant Center though, which gives an additional million of settlers each turn, so perhaps this lack balances everything? (I have to admit I do not really find this facility useful, so I cannot speak about it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif )

Finally, some values for the reproduction increases are lacking in the descriptions. (Mainly the cities, Cultural Centers, that is to say the Colonial Settlements, and the Replicant Centers) The problem being when you are wondering if you should build this Gestation Vat or no, as you don't know how efficient your Homeworld is for increasing the reproduction rate. If you want, I will give you the list of such facilities and the values for them. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Alneyan

September 21st, 2003, 10:01 AM

So. As you have asked input, here you are. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

* For the events: I would believe that Homeworlds cannot/are seldom targeted by High or Catastrophic events according to numerous tests. However, the Homeworlds are protected, NOT the system in which they are. It means they can be destroyed because of a Star Destruction, as a star is targeted by this event instead of a planet. Of course, this hypothesis will be wrong if anyone here has saw a player homeworld destroyed by the Planet - Destroyed event. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

As for the actual tests, is there a way to log all what happens in a given game without having to actually play? PTF spoke of logs, but I am not sure if they can do that and how you can activate them. I will run a few tests, hoping there will be no weirdness to alter the results. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

* For the reproduction rates: (I haven't delved yet in the other changes in PvK Balance Mod) The cost to increase Reproduction in AIC 3.2 is 1000 points for 10%, while the basic rate was around 10%. So it means a +100% increase for 1100 points, whereas the best other facility requires 1500 points for a +50% increase (that is, +5% of reproduction rate). You can achieve such results by raising Reproduction to 106 (the Threshold) for 600 points, and then Environemental Resistance to 120 for 500 points. (I forgot to see that ER was cheaper than Reproduction after Threshold before in AIC)

On the other hand, with PvK Balance Mode, you can raise Reproduction to 110 and Environemental Resistance to 150 for the same 1100 points. (That is a +20% increase in the reproduction rates) Even if you increase the basic reproduction rates by 4% (that is, a basic rate of 15%), an increase of 20% means an improvement by more than two times. (+133%) On a world with 400 million inhabitants, a reproduction rate of 35% means an increase of 14 millions each year, which is better than the Replicant Centers (10 millions a year). Therefore, the Replicant Centers would only be useful on worlds with few settlers (below 300 millions) or in conjunction with an improved Reproduction if you can spare the points.

Finally, on a Homeworld inhabited by 2,000 million settlers, +35% reproduction rate means 70 million additionaly inhabitants each year, compared to 30 millions for +15%. That is quite an asset if you have many colonies. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

So, perhaps you could consider improving the efficiency of Replicant Centers or decrease the researches needed to be able to build them? (You need level 4 in Organinc Engineering and Organinc Manipulation for now) Maybe a second level for this facility, "creating" 2 million workers each turn, could be made? (Especially if you increase the basic reproduction rates)

And as for the reproduction/environemental resistance at the Empire creation, I would support an increase to both Reproduction and Environemental Resistance characteristics, so that the cost needed to have a +10% bonus to reproduction rate should be around 1500 points. (It would also depend on other factors) But this is an approximative value as deciding of a cost to increase/decrease a characteristic is quite a hard job.

Obviously, all my post was only suggestions and my own opinion, so feel free to do what you wish with it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Grand Lord Vito

September 21st, 2003, 03:19 PM

Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:
Probably some day we find this unknown start setup... It could be a kind of easteregg subprocedure from MM, that sometimes is active, sometimes not.JLS, this why I continue to advocate keeping the original AIC events file from the past. We have never seen any problems or bugs when actually playing a game with it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Grand Lord Vito

September 21st, 2003, 03:23 PM

Originally posted by JLS:
Originally posted by Alneyan:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />
However, you have mentioned the possibility to add +8% and +16% conditions improvement facilities. If so, you would need only eight years with the latest facility to go from Deadly (0.0/0.1) to Harsh (0.3) compared to 39 years with the regular +3% facility of the vanilla game. And of course, you could still add a few additional facilities to speed up the process.
Alneyan, the proposed decision to raise the conditions level 4 and 5 improvement facilities to +6 and +12, is in fact solely based from your time consuming research and should assist in raising most Planet levels to optimal. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

AIC Players have benefited from this when we consider the Cultural Centers on an AIC Homeworld has only 3 logical free slots available and only 2 when one is a natural Merchant that prospers with that additional HW CC.

This we all will appreciate

Thanks
That was excellent work http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

John
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif <hr /></blockquote>Sweet http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Way to go Alneyan

Grand Lord Vito

September 21st, 2003, 03:44 PM

Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:
Agreed. I reconsider, one of the cat events is planet core instability. With that in mind, a catastrophic -10 effect on conditions is still a nightmare, but it is still much better than core instability. You see, I am not sure what I want...
Now we are two http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Grand Lord Vito

September 21st, 2003, 03:56 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JLS:

Obviously all cannot be used or totally intact, but as a tool to start any project with, it is my opinion there can be no finer.

>PvK's Traits Balance Mod< (http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=007696)
- - - -
[QUOTE]
What will you do with AST. Do you plan to drop the cost in AIC?

Grand Lord Vito

September 21st, 2003, 04:12 PM

Originally posted by Alneyan:
Incidentally, I would second JLS's suggestion to try at least once a No Warp Point game. I only played with such settings a few days ago with AIC, and I have to say these games are as or even more enjoyable than the regular ones. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif It might not suit your tastes, but you do not have much to lose in trying. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif No Warp Point games are boring http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
Try No Warp with FINITE, now this is a challenge http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Actually, I will take up JLS’S suggestion to try No Warp COMBINED with NOT all warp Points Connected. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
This with a regenerated Centurion Map to my liking and for my total pleasure, I will play with FINITE resources http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Grand Lord Vito

September 21st, 2003, 04:21 PM

Originally posted by Alneyan:
As for the reproduction rate, yes I did understand afterwards. I have to admit I expected something much more complicated. I am even quite disappointed. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Joking apart. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif JLS, are you going to let him get away with this http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Grand Lord Vito

September 21st, 2003, 05:02 PM

Originally posted by JLS:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by oleg:
Only a true paranoic would tow it to Mars first http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif I see what you mean.

However, opening warps a to a few opponents that leads back no mater how many systems, directly over your Home World only makes for a Last stand and that will be so much easer for your opponent and less time for you to recover or even diplomacy; as your HW may become Blockaded or even captured. With few to no options left. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Not to mention if this was just a recon in force from a friendly AI Player, the damage is done, he did not know what was on the other side of that Last warp, tif he could only say “well sorry about our ships attacking your Home World” >”it not to late for a trade agreement is it” http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

If you open Warps over your Home World and then stack Warp points in other system; theoretically your opponents can attack in one turn from the other side of the map to your Home World in one turn with no worry about its fuel supply.
Repeating the worst case, but very possible scenarios above.

As it is today with some successful military doctrines, you may consider a blocking, diVersions, and or holding actions. Before contact and well before your opponent can approach your best terrain.
= = =
A possible strategy; but may come back to bite you. With first contact, maybe if we give a new friendly or serine AI Player the copy of your Home System Charts, as a token. He may avoid your HS with a large force if it knows what it is, this may be worth a try if you find that the above scenarios may come into play http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif <hr /></blockquote>It sounds like it might work, but you will not see me doing it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Grand Lord Vito

September 21st, 2003, 05:23 PM

Originally posted by JLS:
AIC Players, please consider.

We have to choose!

(1) As AIC is (now) Random Events are with both Good and Bad Things
or (2) Random events that will only be bad and hurtful.

(c) Some may like Lucky in multiplayer games, this will result in fewer events (good and bad), even possibly altogether. Also reducing the Trait cost to lower then existing 500, or/to the considered 200. Cursed would go. (Keeping good and a reduced LUCKY)

= = =

Another choice on the impact to the Events may be the Fate Shrine; with Good events, again this is defeated; theoretically.

(f) We can remove Ability altogether and leave Religious at 1500 as opposed to the considered increase to 2000.(Keeping Good)
Keeping (GOOD) will include the removal of any {Change Bad Event Chance} Urban Center subscriptions as well.
JLS, are you keeping the Change Bad Event Chance on the Relig. Culture Centers?

Grand Lord Vito

September 21st, 2003, 07:09 PM

Originally posted by JLS:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Grand Lord Vito:
Also can you explain the planet value system a little more in depth.

ThanksIn regards to (PV) this is the textbook answer from Frequently Asked Questions.

Basically, the FAQ will apply for all Human Players that play AIC. With the exception of Cities and Urban Centers Homeworlds inclusive; they afford Commerce (Imperial Trade if you will) to the Human Player and is thereby unaffected by PV to a degree in AIC.

Loosely, this application of Commerce is applied also to the entire economy for the AI on AIC and is thereby NOT effected by poor Planet Values. Directly that is

I will follow-up with how I Interpret the AI perceptions on some PV applications and AI scenarios.
<hr /></blockquote>OK, can you answer some of my questions now http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

How do you "Interpret the AI perceptions on some PV applications and AI scenarios."

JLS

September 22nd, 2003, 02:13 AM

Originally posted by Alneyan:
* For the events: I would believe that Homeworlds cannot/are seldom targeted by High or Catastrophic events according to numerous tests. However, the Homeworlds are protected, NOT the system in which they are. It means they can be destroyed because of a Star Destruction, as a star is targeted by this event instead of a planet. Of course, this hypothesis will be wrong if anyone here has saw a player homeworld destroyed by the Planet - Destroyed event.

As for the actual tests, is there a way to log all what happens in a given game without having to actually play? PTF spoke of logs, but I am not sure if they can do that and how you can activate them. I will run a few tests, hoping there will be no weirdness to alter the results.
Agreed.

Great. I am tweaking 4.06beta Events now, when I am finished with it I will send it to ya http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
- - - -

And as for the reproduction/environemental resistance at the Empire creation, I would support an increase to both Reproduction and Environemental Resistance characteristics, so that the cost needed to have a +10% bonus to reproduction rate should be around 1500 points. (It would also depend on other factors) But this is an approximative value as deciding of a cost to increase/decrease a characteristic is quite a hard job.
Finding a formula to fit AIC v4.0, should not be to elusive for the below Characteristics:

Characteristic Environmental Resistance (you are suggesting a 33% increase over v3.02?)
Characteristic Reproduction (you are suggesting a 33% increase over v3.02?)
Characteristic Happiness
Characteristic Construction

Characteristic Maintenance (Always preferred as a High Price item in AIC) AIC -v3.0 also had Maintenance Aptitude Max Pct:= 120. But there was something missing when you could not reach godlike status, so v3.02 went to Max Pct := 130. However AIC v4.0 like v.3.02 will max out with Maintenance Aptitude Max Pct := 130 at 3000pts

Therefore, the Replicant Centers would only be useful on worlds with few settlers (below 300 millions) or in conjunction with an improved Reproduction if you can spare the points.
Absolutely

In addition, this attribute is very powerful; as it will reproduce actual Pop each turn and this will apply to every Colonized Planet for that entire System

reference
Change Population - System
Value1 = Population in M that will be added each turn for entire system.
Value2 =

So, perhaps you could consider improving the efficiency of Replicant Centers or decrease the researches needed to be able to build them? (You need level 4 in Organinc Engineering and Organinc Manipulation for now) Maybe a second level for this facility, "creating" 2 million workers each turn, could be made? (Especially if you increase the basic reproduction rates)
Agreed, it may be time to ease the Research requirements to build the Organic Race�s Replicant Center a little.

= = = =

With respect towards an additional Organics Replicant Center added to AIC, please consider:

SE4 complements the Organic Races with only 3 facilities: Replicant Center 1-3, Gestation Vats 1-3 and Medical Labs 1-3.

AIC Replicant Center only one level. However AIC also offers increased values for the basic Organics Facilities: http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

AIC Gestation Vats 1-3 produce nearly double the Production rate to that of vanilla se4.

AIC Medical Labs has everything that Vanilla se4 has. In addition to a 20% higher Plague Prevention � System per/level increase and this starts at level one. AIC yields an over all effectiveness of 80% as opposed to Vanilla se4�s 60% for maximum System Plague Preventions.

~ ~ ~
In addition to above, AIC offers, more Organic Facilities then that of vanilla se4: http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
Organics Generation Settlement +
Organics Generation Colony +
Organics Generation Center +
Please compare the facilities with the AIC Non Organics Race Farming Facilities; you will notice a huge benefit with Organic Solar Generation, which the Organics doubly enjoy http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
To point out that Solar Generation is a nice benefit for new Colonies, as it will yield very good Crop Harvests with much less people required http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif . When compared to the other Resource Gathering (Specific) Facilities.

Planet Lore 1-3. That yields a modest 1 thru 3 percent towards the increase the entire Systems Planet Conditions Change.

Above plus the economic advantages enjoyed with affording Starliner Costs that propels a Human Player Organic Race towards early game growth and that leads to an inevitable productivity increase, sooner then non-Organic.

That is a lot on the Plus side http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
In my opinion, yes true the Organics have many different weapons, is this really a plus. Since, other then the Organic Armor and the 20kt Electric Discharge Weapon; they have to pack the same size ships as every on else.
On the Plus side, there is a lot to be said for the Missile technology that increases in conjunction with other weapons. When it comes to Point Defense, it is near Imposable to take out scores and scores of incoming Missiles fired at your fleet http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Also to mention but not to compare since every race has their individual Specific AIC Racial Urban Centers.
Macrobiotic City
Agrarian Cultural Center

Reference
Name := Farming Settlement
Description := Biological growing facility which generates organic materials from a planet's surface. In finite games farms have an added intrinsic value.
Facility Group := Resource Extraction
Facility Family := 2
Roman Numeral := 1
Restrictions := None
Pic Num := 60
Cost Minerals := 1500
Cost Organics := 10
Cost Radioactives := 0
Number of Tech Req := 3
Tech Area Req 1 := Organics Extraction
Tech Level Req 1 := 1
Tech Area Req 2 := Human Balance Tech
Tech Level Req 2 := 1
Tech Area Req 3 := Construction
Tech Level Req 3 := 1
Number of Abilities := 3
Ability 1 Type := Resource Generation - Organics
Ability 1 Descr := Grows 350 organics each turn.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 250
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Quantum Reactor
Ability 2 Descr :=
Ability 2 Val 1 := 1
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Ability 3 Type := Solar Resource Generation - Organics
Ability 3 Descr :=
Ability 3 Val 1 := 100
Ability 3 Val 2 := 0

Name := Organics Generation Settlement
Description := Organic growing facility which generates organic materials from a planet's surface. In finite games, OG Farms have an extra added intrinsic value.
Facility Group := . Organic Facilities
Facility Family := 2
Roman Numeral := 1
Restrictions := None
Pic Num := 60
Cost Minerals := 1500
Cost Organics := 150
Cost Radioactives := 0
Number of Tech Req := 3
Tech Area Req 1 := Organic Engineering
Tech Level Req 1 := 1
Tech Area Req 2 := Human Balance Tech
Tech Level Req 2 := 1
Tech Area Req 3 := Construction
Tech Level Req 3 := 1
Number of Abilities := 3
Ability 1 Type := Resource Generation - Organics
Ability 1 Descr := Grows 400 organics each turn.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 200
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Quantum Reactor
Ability 2 Descr :=
Ability 2 Val 1 := 1
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Ability 3 Type := Solar Resource Generation - Organics
Ability 3 Descr :=
Ability 3 Val 1 := 200
Ability 3 Val 2 := 0

= = =
Name := Farming Colony
Description := Biological growing facilities which generates organic materials from a planet's surface. In finite games farms have an added intrinsic value.
Facility Group := Resource Extraction
Facility Family := 2
Roman Numeral := 2
Restrictions := None
Pic Num := 98
Cost Minerals := 2000
Cost Organics := 15
Cost Radioactives := 10
Number of Tech Req := 3
Tech Area Req 1 := Organics Extraction
Tech Level Req 1 := 2
Tech Area Req 2 := Human Balance Tech
Tech Level Req 2 := 1
Tech Area Req 3 := Construction
Tech Level Req 3 := 1
Number of Abilities := 3
Ability 1 Type := Resource Generation - Organics
Ability 1 Descr := Grows 450 organics each turn.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 325
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Quantum Reactor
Ability 2 Descr :=
Ability 2 Val 1 := 1
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Ability 3 Type := Solar Resource Generation - Organics
Ability 3 Descr :=
Ability 3 Val 1 := 125
Ability 3 Val 2 := 0

Name := Organics Generation Colony
Description := Organic growing facility which generates organic materials from a planet's surface. In finite games, OG Farms have an extra added intrinsic value.
Facility Group := . Organic Facilities
Facility Family := 2
Roman Numeral := 2
Restrictions := None
Pic Num := 98
Cost Minerals := 2000
Cost Organics := 200
Cost Radioactives := 0
Number of Tech Req := 3
Tech Area Req 1 := Organic Engineering
Tech Level Req 1 := 2
Tech Area Req 2 := Human Balance Tech
Tech Level Req 2 := 1
Tech Area Req 3 := Construction
Tech Level Req 3 := 1
Number of Abilities := 3
Ability 1 Type := Resource Generation - Organics
Ability 1 Descr := Grows 500 organics each turn.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 250
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Quantum Reactor
Ability 2 Descr :=
Ability 2 Val 1 := 1
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Ability 3 Type := Solar Resource Generation - Organics
Ability 3 Descr :=
Ability 3 Val 1 := 250
Ability 3 Val 2 := 0
= = =

Name := Farming Center
Description := Large Scale biological growing facilities which generates organic materials from a planet's surface. In finite games farms have an added intrinsic value.
Facility Group := Resource Extraction
Facility Family := 2
Roman Numeral := 3
Restrictions := None
Pic Num := 99
Cost Minerals := 2500
Cost Organics := 20
Cost Radioactives := 50
Number of Tech Req := 3
Tech Area Req 1 := Organics Extraction
Tech Level Req 1 := 3
Tech Area Req 2 := Human Balance Tech
Tech Level Req 2 := 1
Tech Area Req 3 := Construction
Tech Level Req 3 := 1
Number of Abilities := 3
Ability 1 Type := Resource Generation - Organics
Ability 1 Descr := Grows 550 organics each turn.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 400
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Quantum Reactor
Ability 2 Descr :=
Ability 2 Val 1 := 1
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Ability 3 Type := Solar Resource Generation - Organics
Ability 3 Descr :=
Ability 3 Val 1 := 150
Ability 3 Val 2 := 0

Name := Organics Generation Center
Description := Organic growing facility which generates organic materials from a planet's surface. In finite games, OG Farms have an extra added intrinsic value.
Facility Group := . Organic Facilities
Facility Family := 2
Roman Numeral := 3
Restrictions := None
Pic Num := 99
Cost Minerals := 2500
Cost Organics := 250
Cost Radioactives := 0
Number of Tech Req := 3
Tech Area Req 1 := Organic Engineering
Tech Level Req 1 := 3
Tech Area Req 2 := Human Balance Tech
Tech Level Req 2 := 1
Tech Area Req 3 := Construction
Tech Level Req 3 := 1
Number of Abilities := 3
Ability 1 Type := Resource Generation - Organics
Ability 1 Descr := Grows 600 organics each turn.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 300
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Quantum Reactor
Ability 2 Descr :=
Ability 2 Val 1 := 1
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Ability 3 Type := Solar Resource Generation - Organics
Ability 3 Descr :=
Ability 3 Val 1 := 300
Ability 3 Val 2 := 0

[ September 22, 2003, 12:31: Message edited by: JLS ]

JLS

September 22nd, 2003, 02:59 AM

as Originally posted by GLV:

JLS, this why I continue to advocate keeping the original AIC events file from the past. We have never seen any problems or bugs when actually playing a game with it.
I understand most of what you and other Players have posted. However, you also must agree nothing that is ventured - is nothing to be gained? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
- - - -

What will you do with AST. Do you plan to drop the cost in AIC?
To decrease Advanced Storage Techniques, this is an interesting question.

Please consider that decreasing AST by 1000 points will also give all the AI Gas Players in AIC:
Eee
Abbidon
Cryslonite
The now extra 1000 points to Spend on what ever, and many feel they get of to a great start as it is with the extra Culture Centers they do enjoy with either AST or Nat Merchant trait that is added to the Homeworld.
Also to consider, these extra points would impact balance of the other non-ast AI Players and the ast AI Players will still be as tough with you http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

With that said, with the LAN Club players that beta tested AIC v1.0 thru v2.0; most of them felt they had to have the AST trait to compete against the other Human Players.
When the AST cost was raised, the number of players dropped to only a few that would take this trait, and moved on to other traits for example Organic or just purchased more aptitude. ANd this is also what PvK suggestes in the readme.

Actually, the same applied to Organics Races selections with in the LAN group, when there was 3 levels of Organic Replicant Centers and MASS:=1000; most said that was the clear choice for the Competitive edge.
- - - -

No Warp Point games are boring
Try No Warp with FINITE, now this is a challenge

Actually, I will take up JLS�S suggestion to try No Warp COMBINED with NOT all warp Points Connected.
This with a regenerated Centurion Map to my liking and for my total pleasure, I will play with FINITE resources
Well, some may disagree about N-W being Boring.
However some may also agree, you really have your hands full playing No-Warp in Finite.

Also note: In a No Warp COMBINED with NOT all warp Points Connected game there is a good chance that you will start with one opened adjacent System. If you also play with Neutrals, you may get lucky and have Tex, Cluck, Nultoh, or Bobroba next door from jump http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif to Trade with as well, so this may be of some aid in your Finite game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
- - - -

Originally posted by Alneyan:
As for the reproduction rate, yes I did understand afterwards. I have to admit I expected something much more complicated.
It really wasn't that complacated to add to a CC, as Alneyan states.

However also to add, with some applied specific Racial Abilities on the individual Racial Culture Centers does save the need to get into a few Research Paths early not to mention the need to Build some Specific Facility early. In addition, it does not hurt and having a few Advantages on the Home World and in Home worlds, system does seem realistic. Please refer to reference below for some examples.

Alneyan is also correct http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif maybe we should add the Values to the CC description, I have always struggled with the fact that some information added; might suggest that the author is playing there game and not the Players actually experimenting with their own choices. I really do not know what is best, to much or not enough info , sometimes.

- - - -

A possible strategy; but may come back to bite you. With first contact, maybe if we give a new friendly or serine AI Player the copy of your Home System Charts, as a token. He may avoid your HS with a large force if it knows what it is, this may be worth a try if you find that the above scenarios may come into play
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It sounds like it might work, but you will not see me doing it
You may be pleasantly surprised, what a little diplomacy can do (YOU WAR MONGER http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Actually, what differences does it make in that scenario the AI was bound to enter your system anyway and much sooner then later.
- - - -

JLS, are you keeping the Change Bad Event Chance on the Relig. Culture Centers?
No decision yet, what are your thoughts when considering the Heroes Epic effects.
I personally would want as much decreased CBEC as possible in my Home Systems.

What would you do for example if you had a Fate Shrine, would you put a priority on it for your Home System?

= = = =

Reference
AIC Racial Abilities on its CC

Name := Population Center
Ability 15 Type := Modify Reproduction - System
Ability 15 Descr := Populations in Home System will reproduce faster.
Ability 15 Val 1 := 1
Ability 15 Val 2 := 0
Ability 16 Type := Combat Modifier - System
Ability 16 Descr := Defense of Home System is resolute and will receive a combat bonus to all ships and units.
Ability 16 Val 1 := 2
Ability 16 Val 2 := 0
Ability 17 Type := Component Repair
Ability 17 Descr := Orbital ship repair capability.
Ability 17 Val 1 := 1
Ability 17 Val 2 := 0

Name := Psychic Race Cultural Center
Ability 14 Type := Ship Training - System
Ability 14 Descr := Psychic Training Academy.
Ability 14 Val 1 := 2
Ability 14 Val 2 := 3
Ability 15 Type := Fleet Training - System
Ability 15 Descr := Ships and Fleets in this system will improve each turn.
Ability 15 Val 1 := 2
Ability 15 Val 2 := 2
Ability 16 Type := System Point Generation Modifier - Intelligence
Ability 16 Descr := University of Psychic Studies. Psychic intelligence generation from Home System incresed by 5%.
Ability 16 Val 1 := 5
Ability 16 Val 2 := 0

Name := Agrarian Cultural Center
Ability 14 Type := Modify Reproduction - System
Ability 14 Descr :=
Ability 14 Val 1 := 2
Ability 14 Val 2 := 0
Ability 15 Type := Plague Prevention - System
Ability 15 Descr := University of Organic Studies. Prevents level 2 plagues in this system. Agrarian Populations in the Home System will reproduce faster.
Ability 15 Val 1 := 2
Ability 15 Val 2 := 0

Name := Temporal Race Cultural Center
Ability 15 Type := System Point Generation Modifier - Research
Ability 15 Descr := Temporal College. All research in the Home System is increased by 5%.
Ability 15 Val 1 := 5
Ability 15 Val 2 := 0

Name := Crystal Race Cultural Center
Ability 15 Type := Shield Modifier - System
Ability 15 Descr := Transmission Center. The shield strength of all ships in the Home System starts at 30 shield points.
Ability 15 Val 1 := 20
Ability 15 Val 2 := 0

Name := Religious Cultural Center
Ability 15 Type := Planet Conditions Change - System
Ability 15 Descr := Religious Fate Seminary. Improved happiness of the populations and a decreased chance of any bad events in the Home System.
Ability 15 Val 1 := 1
Ability 15 Val 2 := 0
Ability 16 Type := Change Bad Event Chance - System
Ability 16 Descr :=
Ability 16 Val 1 := ?
Ability 16 Val 2 := 0
Ability 17 Type := Change Bad Intelligence Chance - System
Ability 17 Descr := Nature Conservatory. Increases the conditions of all planets in the Home System by 1% each year.
Ability 17 Val 1 := -5
Ability 17 Val 2 := 0
Ability 18 Type := Change Population Happiness - System
Ability 18 Descr :=
Ability 18 Val 1 := 2
Ability 18 Val 2 := 0

[ September 22, 2003, 21:07: Message edited by: JLS ]