Just throwing this concept out here

[UninspiredName]

This is a random thought that spawned, originally, from considering that Death and Nature can be used to beat old age, though using opposite methods. What if the magic schools were 'paired off' with each-other's opposite? Fire and Water, Earth and Air, and Nature and Death. Astral and Blood could be opposites, and an argument can be made for it, or they could just be left be. At any rate, what if, when making a pretender, each level you take of one path makes it harder to take the opposite? It wouldn't need to be a large sum, maybe 5 more points per level in an opposing path, which wouldn't hurt Rainbow pretenders too much. I suppose one could also use opposed gems instead of, or together with, Astral Pearls for dispelling purposes. As a bonus, it would be a huge hit to F9/W9.

I'm not saying it's a good idea, more a random thought. Feel free to discuss.

[PDF]

I like the concept, very fitting the game "theme" IMHO

[PvK]

Sounds reasonable to me.

[Endoperez]

I, on the other hand, don't see the need for this change. There's no good and no evil, per se. Nature can cancel Death, and Death Nature. I'd rather see these aspects that can cancel other paths made into new spells, than make some path combinations rarer or more expensive. Rain makes Water good against Fire in the early game. I'd rather like to see THAT kind of opposition. Fire Ward and Fire Fend, from Fire and Water, Frost Ward and Frost Fend, from Water and Fire, etc.

[B0rsuk]

And I don't like the idea. Not just because it's s cliche. I prefer when school strenghts come from gameplay mechanics, and not from artificial bonuses. Besides, there are some spells with odd path combinations, like acid spells (fire + water, nature + death ). They are possible because no two schools - so far - are directly opposite to each other. Nothing is set in stone.
Anyway, spells designed to fight certain paths already exist, even if they're not very numerous. Kindly Ones, Maggots, Cleansing Water, Inner Fire, Purgatory, Astral Corruption, Rain; spells that affect climate upset either fire or water mages. Wind Ride is ineffective against Earth mages. Lots of suble and less subtle effects.

[alexti]

I think that it may be more interesting to counter-position national/non-national magic paths rather than some predetermined pairs. Basically, national magic paths would be cheaper for pretender and other paths more expensive. Thus, for example, for Vanheim air magic on pretender would cost significantly less than fire magic. This would help to keep national magic more different in the late game by making it more expensive to get into other paths through pretender...

[B0rsuk]

Alexti: Magic available for nations already become much more specific, because independent mages are much worse now. On top of it national mages of the same quality cost much less.
Discouraging using strange paths on pretenders would narrow available spells even further. Pretender magic is - for many nations - the only way to try something new. And you're pretty much required to have national Blood mages if you're to try blood magic at all. And it would harm bless strategies, too. Kailasa sacreds, for example, literally scream for Air bless, because they have little to no protection. But none of their mages has Air,even as random. Should they be denied a chance to try air bless ?
I think it's enough that pretender choice strongly depends on the nation. It makes some paths pretty hard to get, unless you try human pretender like archmage.

[UninspiredName]

B0rsuk, I see what you mean. That was partly why I wanted the cost-boost to be so low. Keep ind mind that most fire/water or death/nature things you see only require one or two levels in a 'secondary' path, which is still mighty doable with the suggested penalties. (I also like the 'opposite synergy' spells, and at this point can hardly play Pangaea anymore without Carrion Woods/summons) Though a very large chunk of the anti-path spells you named are against undead and demons, which, using a lot of Blood magic and a good chunk of Death, is a pet peeve of mine. And Astral corruption isn't so much against a different path as it is for blood. Like saying the various spells that boost the level of astral mages are designed for anti-non-astral purposes.

And I strongly disagree with aligning the magic preferences of a pretender with their nation any more than they are already. Especially with Independent mages weak as they are.

[alexti]

@BOrsuk: in the current state, late game plays pretty similarly, no matter whan nation you've started with. It would be nice to have more nation-specific late game. Increasing costs of non-nation paths would make such setups more expensive and made an option of trying to do with limited set of paths more attractive (I don't think this approach is practical in longer MP now). Making dual-9 cost more would be a good thing too (though proposed system would still made it easy to take insane blesses with Mictlan).

[HoneyBadger]

I kindof had a similar idea to yours, Uninspired Name. I was thinking, not magic that is balanced against itself-fire to water, air to earth, etc., but that the schools we currently have could "split" from central concepts, kindof like a family tree. If you had a certain level in Earth magic for instance, at some point you'd have the option to gain levels in Metal and Crystal magic as well. There'd still be spells in the Earth school, but some spells would now be in Metal, such as Armies of Gold and Armies of Lead.

Life magic (healing, resurrection) would split into Nature (pretty much as is) and Ego (mind control and soul magic, as well as spells which affect emotions, memory, experience, etc.)
Death magic (pretty much as is, except dealing with corporeal death, corporeal undead like zombies, and the state of death) would split into AEther (summoning spirits, spells that affect the soul, spiritual and more subtley supernatural spells than found in the path of Death) and Entropy (destruction spells like Disintegrate and spells which degrade things, like making provinces worse, worsening scales, etc)
Air (gases) would split into Weather and Static (electricity)
Water and Fire would both lead to Energy (temperature control), Water would also lead to Ice, (breath of winter, unfrozen, etc), and Fire would lead to Light magic (and it's absence: Eyes of God, Utterdark)
Earth to Crystal (not only physical crystals, but geometrics, harmonics, and vibrations) and Metal (lots of item improvements here, some poisons and acids also, plenty of wartime spells, naturally, as well as spells which affect gold/income)
Astral would split into Time (obviously there are plenty of useful battlefield spells that could go here, also spells which effect aging.), Space (teleportation spells, making bigger things smaller, smaller things bigger, bringing things closer together or pushing them further apart), and Void (spells that summon void creatures, do void effects, or deal with pure chaos or nothingness).


This doesn't mean that Metal magic would be more powerful than Earth magic, or Time magic more powerful than Astral, it would just give a mage more options, and more places for us to mod in new spells. It also makes Empowerment more useful in the game, because you could use your gems to "build" a Crystal mage for instance, instead of just shoring up the weak spots in your magical stable. Some mages, and probably Pretenders as well, could start out as a "basic Time mage" etc., having just levels in one of the divergeant mage paths, but this should be more rare. Mages in basic paths should gain a single level in their split-off paths once they reach a certain level in the basic, such as a level 7 Air mage having 1 level in both Weather and Static, just to simulate a broader understanding the mage would gain. Mages who start out in one of the split-paths would not gain paths in the basic paths, however, just because their knowledge is more specialized and less common. Plenty of spells that currently use more than one path could go in the new paths, while plenty more could remain "hybrids".

Four new basic paths I would then suggest would be "Perspective" (one's point of view: changing one thing into another thing, such as Polymorph for example.) "Abberation" (deals exclusively with spells like cross-breeding which subvert or break natural laws and effects which don't fit in any of the other paths).
"Divine" (not in the holy sense, but rather delving-divining. Knowledge, numbers, and word magic.). Divination would split into Ley (as in Ley-lines, ley-energy: spells which have to be "triggered" in order to take effect, landmine spells, in other words, and certain protection spells, also spells which draw things or creatures to the caster, or push them away.) and Clog (sort of anti-magic: spells which, although not holy, are specifically aimed at destroying or subverting demons, undead, and other supernatural forces). "Weird" (this path concerns spells which have to do with Fate and Destiny, leading for instance to charming and enchanting, as well as spells which have a beneficial or detrimental effect over time, such as cursing someone to turn into a werewolf, for example.)

Blood would stay the same, with no splits, except for the absence of Crossbreeding, replacing this with Bloodbreeding (breeding "normal" creatures with demons, and summoning demonic versions of normal creatures, like demon wolves, demonbreds, humanbreds, etc).
Holy would also stay the same, but I'd like to see it renamed to "Presence" as in: "in the Presence of God". Presence would split into Holy and Unholy magics.

This would give us 13 basic magical paths (a good, round number, when you're talking about magic), and 27 split-paths, ultimately, and, if all 15 levels were incorporated, a much broader and more complete magic system in the game.

Edited a bit for the sake of clarity and aesthetics, because I was half asleep when I wrote it.