Pretenders: Rainbow vs SC

[Calahan]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

I know protection interacts weirdly with damage, because the RNG is bugged. But try it before you say it doesn't work.

An E9 Cyclops has 29 protection. He'll also average more than 100hp with dominion bonus. With no gear he can handle non-archer infantry. Figure you expand turn 2, move home turn 3, and that gives you time to forge a weapon and a shield to equip him for expanding again on turn 4 and onwards. Assuming you don't run into something egregious like someone with a skull talisman, you'll expand perfectly fine.

I gained 1 affliction (-4 str, oh noes) in year 1, and that was just random bad luck. I expanded on turns 2, 4-11. I used an enchanted shield and sword because I grabbed an astral power at random. I made sure to target provinces that were only standard infantry with or without archers OR tribal groups. (No barbarians, no heavy cavalry, light cavalry would probably be ok). Actually, the parry 7 on enchanted shield is pretty respectable, not sure how much of a difference that made against archers.

Once you get Conj3, you're also net-neutral on fatigue after SEP, which makes you immune to critical hits. You should research it sometime in year 1.

I mean, would you rather have awe? Sure. But the Cyclops *can* go without.

I have tested a Cyclops without Awe in the past, and again just now to reacquaint myself with it. And while they can solo Indy's without Awe, I found it made expansion a very nervous affair. As with red numbers popping up almost every round of battle, I was left constantly right-clicking during the replays to check whether that last hit was the one that left the permanent mark. And not all nations have an early shield forging option to help out.

Like many things in Dominions, I feel it falls under the category of 'it can be done, but are the odds really in your favour enough to risk it'. Probably ranks the same as attacking blind on turn 1 in my books. Once or twice when I tested just now I had an injured Cyclops after his first battle because the border intel was pretty light on the truth with regards the actual number of troops in the province. And it seems it didn't take much numbers wise to swing the odds between a win and a risk.

Some nations could pull it off easier than others for sure, such as those with national healers. So you are right that E9 does give that extra bit of security without Awe, but I still think Awe is the better option with or without the E9, even if it costs a scale or two. Especially for newer players who are still learning the different types of Indy's that are in the game.

Guess a lot depends on how lucky you feel your gambling arm is on any given day. I know mine is jinxed though, so I tend to side more with the sure odds stuff

[Verjigorm]

I favor the Immortal Thug chassis. They can't truly be considered SCs since most are too weak to defeat an army on their own, but they can be very powerful when paired with some meat shields.

The Phoenix has paths that are too expensive to be rainbow (60), but this Phoenix build is great for a nation that starts slow:

Phoenix (Body 608, 15 hits)
Magic: Fire 6 Air 3 Astral 7
Dominion 6
Scales: Order 3 Sloth 3 Heat 3 Misfortune 2
Awake

Pretty high precision, deadly fire magic (Astral Fires, Falling Fires, very strong Hydrophobia, etc.) can craft air boosters once you get rings, can cast Wish late game. Low income is the basic problem I had with this particular build, but she's very effective for a long time.

The Master Lich chassis is usually done as a partial rainbow due to his cost--taking him awake allows him to site search early like a rainbow, but as the game progresses he becomes incredibly deadly in combat even with his extremely low hp.

The Lich (40-path) is an excellent combatant even early in the game given a tiny bit of alteration magic.

I haven't used VQ since Dom2.

Immortal pretenders don't really fit into the SC category or into the rainbow category (with the exception of the Master Lich), so I would be in the other column.

The big SCs (titans and similar) are very powerful combatants, but once the game progresses, you can't use them for their original purpose as well because once a player sees you fighting with your SC, they'll use several tactics to put the SC pretender out of commission (relegated to lab duty) or kill them indirectly.

1. Stacked Horror Marks
2. BBOB, Vision's Foe especially if you don't have national healers.

I find that for that reason I tend not to pick titans.

I would say that my list goes:

1. Awake Immortal Thug
2. Awake Rainbow
3. Dormant/Sleeping bless or excellent scales

Any time an SC pretender is called for in a strategy, it is usually because you need something to attack or defend with. Since I'd rather be able to throw my pretender at anything I want and not have to worry about him dying, I love Immortals. The CBM phoenix explodes with Phoenix Pyre, so it can still kill indies even without any spell research.

[LDiCesare]

Totally nation and map-dependent. Bigger maps usually mean less need of an SC.

[Knai]

Obviously heavily map dependant, and nation dependant, but I said other. High dominion and really good scales at the cost of actual pretender capability is often fun, though with imprisonment you can get a rainbow on top of that, or at least a decent bless.

[KissBlade]

Originally Posted by Finalgenesis

I must agree! I was feeling like I overlooked something in my analysis since 90% of the game thread, guides, brainstorm all use SC chasis. Wyrm, clops, gorgon, various titan chasis ...etc. I guess it is that important for MP games.

It would be ironic to site find all my lands then get steamrolled by a Hv bless SC pretender nation. I suppose if they know your going rainbow then your land must have lots of juicy revealed sites, coupled with the fact you have no early SC would make you mighty tempting...

I think I may have to go SC in my MP games now that I analyze it abit more...

You've just answered your own question. You take a SC when you feel the nation/map requires one for adequate defense.

[TheDemon]

Honestly I think part of the problem is a bit of a terminology confusion. SC or Rainbow to most players refers to the purpose of the pretender, not to its chassis specifically. At the very minnimum, the general purposes would be rainbow, SC, bless or scales, and they often mix it up. A rainbow with low paths can have decent scales, a minor bless build like E9 N4 can be given extra paths and function as a sleeping rainbow, a pathless wyrm with dom 10 can have incredibly good scales, the lich and ghost king chassis can be used as SCs with extra magic.

To go back to my first point, for example, an E9 N9 bless build for a giant nation usually takes medium dom, and therefore can get away with using a mage chassis like the CBM master druid. It's also unlikely to be able to afford extra paths. No one would call that pretender a Rainbow.

Honestly it's shortsighted to classify some pretenders as "other" or niche builds. The scales oracle with high astral is actually very common, as are double 9 bless builds. Sometimes you'll even take an awake titan chassis and use it as a researcher and never as an SC, like the Lord of the Gates for his freespawn or the Lord of Plenty for his gem income.



So I guess my point is to look not at the chassis as determining "rainbow" or "SC" but instead look at the end purpose.

[Lihaässä]

I tend to got with awake rainbow to maximize gem income. However last large game I played with CBM 1.5 EA Ulm and POD

Build: Sleeping Prince of Darknes
Dom:7 - Ord:3 - Pro:1 - Cold:3 - Grwth:1 - Misf:1 - Magc:1
S4 - D4 - A3

This guy got me through Caelums and Tirnaogs earlygame hostitlities. Pretender is designed to cover lategame magic as well as early fights against giants. Huge bonus is the ability to fly, which gives you freedom to pick provinces before others.

Not the most common build but works as a SC, Forger, Wisher (empovermeent needed) summoner and highly mobile battle wizard.

[Squirrelloid]

Lihaasa: to be fair, Caelum's aggression was predicated on TNN's aggression not sucking. I never came in hard.

[Lihaässä]

Still - without flying shock resistant SC you would have come at me? I know I would have. I just gave an example of not that common pretender build, which happened to work fairly well. In the end we ended up as allies.

[Squirrelloid]

I would have considered pressing the attack more seriously. As it was, I was brainstorming ways of dealing with your PoD and even acquired items and placed mages to do so. Ultimately my decision not to press you was based on wanting more forces elsewhere, and then it just became convenient to have an ally sitting there once we reached an understanding.