Ulm beefed up ...

[Alneyan]

Aren't you thinking of Black Faith here? They have what you want: cheap forgers (especially cheap because of lower upkeep), and a full random. That comes at the cost of a slower research, and a more expensive theme, as you cannot go all the way to Drain 3 without taking "damage". If you are lucky, you can create a research pocket though, by using a Stone Idol, hence solving Drain problems with Black Faith.

Taking Earth on the Pretender is advised however, in case all your mages agree not to have an Earth random. Still, you will recruit lots of them, so 1/8 should happen sooner or later.

[Oversway]

I havn't used iron faith much, but it sounds like what I was gettin at. I suppose then that ulm needs more than just a cheap forger.

[FrankTrollman]

Really what Iron Faith needs is some way to make it not completely suck and waste my time by existing. When you get down to it, that's really my only problem with it.

Iron Faith is a crap team that can't win. The fact that their full random is used as an excuse for why regular Ulm can't have nice things just makes it even worse. Really, using Iron Faith as an excuse for why Ulm can't have randoms is like using Serpent Cult Pythium as an example of why Oceania shouldn't be allowed to have Nature and Water mages. If a theme is a waste of space, its existence shouldn't keep others from horning in on its junk.

Ulm gets Forge Bonuses, yes, but thanks to its absolutely dreadful site searching, it actually has less gems coming in than just about anyone. Really, you end up with about the same number of gems worth of forged items as anyone else, and less summoned monsters. And Ulm can't even natively buil a hammer, which means that anyone else who wants to forge a bunch of stuff can probably do it better than Ulm can.

A Forge-happy Atlantis is better at mass forging than Ulm is. Not "almost as good", it's better.

Ulm needs at least a random elemental pick on its Master Smiths. Then at the very least one out of four of them could make a hammer and you could ever find magic sites. Forge bonuses are by themselves meaningless unless you actually have a supply of gems.

And no, even a full random wouldn't be enough to turn Ulm into super hoarders. The best they could do at that point is have the random death master make Mound Kings (once they had found a death site or three), and then have the random Nature master make Fever Fetishes (after finding a nature site or two). One random Nature and you couldn't natively hoard anything. If you have to wait until you get Construction 6 to Clam hoard, you aren't a real clam hoarder, are you?

-Frank

[Oversway]

Depends how you feel about empowerment. Giving a random water pick sure helps, compared to having to empower from 0 to 2...

[FrankTrollman]

Sure. But that's 30 Water gems down the drain. The Forge Bonus cuts the price on a Clam by 3 gems if you don't have a hammer, and 2 gems if you do. So best case scenario (compared to Atlantis without an Earth God, for instance), you are looking at pulling ahead after you produce 11 Clams.

...Except let's face it, you don't. You have to pay 30 Water Gems up front, and then you save 3 gems per Clam after that. Once Atlantis has paid 30 Water Gems, they actually have 3 Clams to their name, which in turn produce 3 Gems a turn.

So yeah, if you include empowerment, the forge bonus is almost enough to make up the difference late in the game. Not quite, but almost.

I'm seriously not concerned. Especially if they got a random Elemental, leaving their god as the only unit that might be able to take advantage of the Astral Pearls.

-Frank

[Endoperez]

Every Master Smith can make Dwarven Hammers, but only after Constr. 4. Making one costs them 15+7 earth gems, only 2 more than it would cost for any other nation, AND every pair of Earth Boots and every Dwarven Hammer will be forged even cheaper.

Ulm has cheap, although not sacred, mages, and as you can't really have enough resources to pour all your gold into units you would have enough spare money to actually use Fever Fetishes on living units until you can get undead.

Ulm's native mages can't sitesearch well. That forces you to use a Rainbow mage or to suffer from less sites. However, F2A2W2S2D2N2B1 rainbow can find most sites, can forge boosters for +2F, +2W, +1S, +3N, (atleast) +1D, +1Elem (after W and F booster). With only one S more the pretender can make Rings of Sorcery and Wizardry, with one E pick and Earth Boots you can make Crystal Coin and get that boost if you don't want to take S3. From humans, Master Druid (stealthy) and Great Enchantress (cheapest S3 + one pearl). You would have to stay out of battle, but I find Fire Darts, Magma Bolts and later Blade Wind good enough.

Full random on Smiths would be powerful with such a pretender, as the Smiths could get any path to 2 or 3, and forge cheap boosters from then on. There are also quite good items with E and other path, like Shield of Valor, Crystal Coin, Fire Brand (and in Zen's, Frost Brand)...

[Alneyan]

FrankTrollman said:
Iron Faith is a crap team that can't win. The fact that their full random is used as an excuse for why regular Ulm can't have nice things just makes it even worse. Really, using Iron Faith as an excuse for why Ulm can't have randoms is like using Serpent Cult Pythium as an example of why Oceania shouldn't be allowed to have Nature and Water mages. If a theme is a waste of space, its existence shouldn't keep others from horning in on its junk.
-Frank

Note that Iron Faith has only been raised in answer to Oversway's suggestion of giving one full random to Ulm; whether this is enough or not is another matter altogether. Ulm can do well (bring your own Rainbow/SC Pretender), and I see no reason why Iron Faith would not do just as well. Those themes are simply different, and their attractions are not quite the same: regular Ulm has more design points and better Earth mages, while Iron Faith has cheaper and more varied mages, but at the cost of a weaker research (until Stone Idols come online). In this case, there is the point in having Iron Faith around, though it may not appeal to all players. That Ulm is too weak can be argued; that Iron Faith is much weaker and useless (*Nods to PvK*) seems to be a whole different matter.

I can't say I see the link between "one theme has a random, one of its few attractions over the main nation" and "one nation has mages with a combination of two paths, making it impossible for another nation to have the same mages". In the first case, that random is a major reason to play Iron Faith; in the second case, there is no connection, as some nations share the same magic (Atlantis and R'lyeh are very close, like Pythium and Conquerors of the Seas, or even Raptors and Vanheim, or Carrion Woods and C'tis).

If you do want to see a theme whose use seems dubious, Barbarian Kings is the usual example: a much weaker economy, the same mages as in the basic theme, and a slightly better cavalry (plus the Master of the Dead) does not cut it. I think it is the only theme I would never consider, unless I wanted a strong handicap; even a theme like Return of the Raptors allows to do things outside the normal scope of Caelum. It does not mean Return of the Raptors is an appealing choice, or on an equal footing with the regular nation: all it means is that Return of the Raptors offers a different nation, pretty much like Iron Faith.

I am not going to tackle such balance issues however, mostly because I do not think I am competent to deal with such matters (if I thought so, I would have already worked on a mod or in a grand project mending everything "wrong" and "broken" in Dominions).

[Graeme Dice]

FrankTrollman said:
And Ulm can't even natively buil a hammer, which means that anyone else who wants to forge a bunch of stuff can probably do it better than Ulm can.

Do you really hve that much trouble making it to construction 4 so that you can build a single pair of earth boots?

Forge bonuses are by themselves meaningless unless you actually have a supply of gems.

You'd use independent mages for that anyways, as a single random doesn't allow for site searching via spells.

If you have to wait until you get Construction 6 to Clam hoard, you aren't a real clam hoarder, are you?

Construction 6 is not particularly hard to achieve, and given a 5 gem cost on clams, your rate of return is huge.

[Graeme Dice]

FrankTrollman said:
...Except let's face it, you don't. You have to pay 30 Water Gems up front,

5 gems actually, once you reach construction 6.

and then you save 3 gems per Clam after that.

Or in other words, it takes 6 fewer turns to pay off, and unlike Atlantis, Ulm is guaranteed to have the gems for hammers.

[Alneyan]

Graeme Dice said:

You'd use independent mages for that anyways, as a single random doesn't allow for site searching via spells.

Astral and Death magic do have a level one site searching spell however (Arcane Probing and the more expensive than usual Dark Knowledge, at 3 gems). Of course, you need to have some gems to begin with.