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Old June 28th, 2008, 06:52 PM

Omnirizon Omnirizon is offline
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Default Shinuyama: in the shadows, on the battlefield, under the waves

Shinuyama: in the shadows, on the battlefield, under the waves

Note: This is an update to an old guide. I've now played Shinuyama through to the end of a couple more games and gotten better ideas on how to use them. Also, this guide is not yet complete, but I wanted to go ahead and post what I have now.

== Introduction ==
This document discusses strengths, weaknesses, and options available to Shinuyama. Options are recommended from some assumptions about which are the best sets of units, commanders, and early game strategy. I strongly prefer the Dai Bakemono, and an early game strategy which doesn't depend heavily on mage power. Dai Bakemono can hold their own, and don't need a lot of mage backup. I like to commit my mages to research until Mid to Late game, when the power of Dai Bakemono is no longer so relevant, and mage power becomes more prevalent. During early game I will favor strong units (Dai Bakemono), cheap thugs, and research priorities in which mages are supporting the front lines through summons and construction. Going into mid game I like to have a set of spells for buffing Bakemono armies and keeping them relevant, and for utilizing the full destructive potential of the Bakemono Sorcerers. I leave late game up to personal preference.

== Pretenders ==
=== Physical Form ===
Shinuyama doesn't need a bless, and has good magic diversity, but lacks two crucial magic paths: Air and Astral. They benefit most from an SC or a rainbow pretender that can fill in one or both of those gaps.

=== Magic ===
Make sure to have Air and/or Astral. SCs will probably not be able to have both, and should get Air (Air is a good path for SCs because it has great buffs, and Astral is not a good idea on an SC because it leaves them vulnerable to Magic Duel). A rainbow should get both these paths.

=== Scales ===
Shinuyama is a 'scales' nation. The Dai Bakemono are resource intensive, and the Bakemono Sorcerers are expensive. Both those units are crucial to successful Shinuyama.

=== Suggestions ===
; Celestial General; Awake, 4A2E, 3O 3P -1L, 6Dom
: SC (after some initial equipment)
: Great scales good dominion
: Air

;Enchantress; Awake, 4A3E3S3N, 3O 3P -1G -1L -1M, 5Dom
: Site searcher
: Good scales OK dominion
: Forging
: Completes Shinuyama's diversity

== Units ==
=== Recruits ===
Shinuyama has a wide range of units, from small and stealthy, to large and powerful, and even sporting an amphibious unit. All the Bakemono units have Mountain-walk and map-move 2, giving them excellent mobility. All Bakemono units also have Darkvision.

* The primary unit will be Dai Bakemono. Mix them with Bakemono-sho to spread them out and provide cannon fodder.

* Shinuyama possesses diversity in stealth units. Use Bandits for shallow border skirmishes and raiding. With their armor, they can survive well enough against general light PD, but shouldn't be facing high PD (which they don't have the stealth or capability for). Use masses of Bakemono-sho paired with Uba and Bakemono shamans for deeper stealth raiding, the mages should spam Raise Dead and debuffs (like Rust Mist). Build a lab deep in enemy territory and summon Oni and undead to hold out; force the opponent to divert significant forces to snuff out what started as a minor stealth party.

* Kappa are competent warriors under the waves. Make an early push at water provinces, unless that will bring you into immediate conflict with a real water power. If Kappas can stake claim to a couple of provinces before an underwater nation can get there, the underwater nation will usually not see a war worth the trouble just to gain them.

* Do not use O-Bakemono. They are too expensive for being so incapable; with such a low attack they they simply cannot output much damage. In general I will never use them, they require a different research agenda (Alteration and Thaumaturgy for buffs/debuffs that bring their attack on par with their enemies') and then mages diverted to accompany them.

; Bandits
: A well armored and stealthy human unit. Comes in two flavors: with a Yari, or with a Shortbow and Wakazashi. The Shortbow variant is best because it can act us an archer, and the Wakazashi is arguably a better weapon than the Yari. Bandit's, with their combination of armor and stealth, excel as border skirmishers.

; Bakemono-sho
: Small and cheap unit. Come in unarmored but stealthy or in armored but not stealthy versions. Both versions have the option of either a Yari or a Shortbow. Additionally, there is a non-stealthy armored Wakazashi weilding 'Bakemono-sho warrior' with slightly better stats than the others. Mix the armored versions in with armies of Dai-Bakemono (I prefer the Yari version for this), or mass tons of them when you simply need lots of cannon fodder, and quality isn't so important (ie. using them as a buffer between mages and enemies). Big squads of just the stealth version combined with Shinuyama's stealthy mages are good for stealth raiding.

; O-Bakemono
: Large, strong, low armor, high HP, expensive units with an abysmal attack. Their attack is so low as to render them generally useless. Pair them with mages who can buff them (or debuff the enemy) to bring their attack level up to par. Quickness and Berserking spells improve their attack. Numbness debuffs the enemy. Their absence of real armor renders O-Bakemono as good candidates for armor spells like Stoneskin, and for using around armor debuffs like Rust Mist (which tend to destroy armor indiscriminately).

; Dai Bakemono
: Like the O-Bakemono, but with armor and much better attack/defense stats. They require a lot of resources, but not too hard on gold. Come in a No-Dashi or a Longbow version; which is best is subjective. The No-Dashi version has a big sword and better stats, the Longbow version has a missile weapon. This unit is better than most in the game, and the only good one Shinuyama has. They should be the primary recruit. The unit is robust and will generally survive to obtain stars (or levels) and improve stats. Their robustness also makes them candidates for healing, and they pair well with Uba's who can heal. The main weakness of this unit is Air magic: Lightning spells bypass their heavy armor. Fire magic is a threat to them for the same reason (although it only ignores half the armor).

; Kappa
: Amphibious units with good prot, high HP, two attacks, and recuperation. However, they accrue fatigue quickly out of water, and need to be under the waves to be most effective. A great unit for Shinuyama to move into the oceans with. Consider moving quickly towards the water provinces so you can utilize them.

=== Commanders ===
Shinuyama has an interesting set of commanders. The Bakemono Sorcerers are among the best mages in the game. All Shinuyama units are recruitable everywhere.

; Bakemono Scout
: A scout with leadership. This is the best basic unit for leading stealth squads.

; Bandit Commander
: Equipped like the bandit recruits. Typically, these should be forgone in favor of the Bakemono Scout, who is cheaper.

; Bakemono General
: General commander-type for Shinuyama; equipped like the Dai-Bakemono. Has the Mountain-walk like the Dai-Bakemono. These should be used to lead armies composed of only Dai Bakemono, where the Mountain-walk can be of benefit. For mixed squads, use a Shuten-doji, who doesn't require as many resources.

; Shuten-doji
: An interesting unit with good stats, leadership, a fatiguing aura, and life drain. The Life Drain makes them cheap but effective thugs with just minimal equippment (some armor mainly). This should be Shinuyama's primary leadership unit (unless the armies are almost entirely Dai Bakemono).

; Kappa Chief
: Like the Kappa recruits. Make a thug out of one with a Wand of Wild Fire and name it 'Bowser'

; Mujina
: An assassin with a Fear Aura. Give her a Horror Helmet for an effective fear assassin.

; Uba
: An interesting mage who can shapeshift into a Ghost Cat. They have a Nature random, which is the primary reason to recruit them. In Ghost Cat form they have stealth, so you can send them as mages with stealth raids. The have enough magic to be capable mages for stealth raids, and are also able to summon many of the Oni (ie. build a lab behind enemy territory and pump out surprise armies onto the enemies' tender spots).

; Bakemono Shaman
: A stealthy mage-priest. Send them with stealth raids and have them spam Raise Dead spells to replenish the ranks.

; Bakemono Sorcerer
: A powerful mage unit; also has high research. Considered one of the most powerful mages in the game. Recruit lots of these guys.

== Nationals ==
Shinuyama has access to a wide range of national summons; in fact this is one of their highlights. Many of these summons, it turns out, are just the recruitables from Yomi, Oni Kings. They supplement Shinuyama's armies nicely though, and strategy can be tailored around utilizing them.

Mind that all the summons have low protection, and benefit from buffs to boost them up, or de-buffs to bring enemies down.

=== Recruits ===
Shinuyama recruit summons are nothing to build a strategy around, but they can sometimes make a surprise for your opponent.

; Oni
: These Oni are the same that are recruitable by EA Yomi. When they die they become ethereal, and unless they are killed a second time they will reform another body after the battle. Each summon pulls in a handful, but in general there are better things to use gems on. However, it might be worth building a lab behind enemy lines with a stealth mage, and then summoning these to build squads from. Even small numbers are more than a match for typical PD, and they can be quite a nuisance.

; Tengu
: The Tengu are flying warriors with Katanas and sometimes a lightining missile weapon. With no Air magic, Shinuyama really isn't set up to use them.

=== Commanders ===
Shinuyama commander summons provide both servicable thugs and ways to boost magic path depth.

; Oni General
: The same recruitable by EA Yomi. Not generally worth it without a bless (and he can't even bless himself)

; Dai Oni
: Another atavism from EA Yomi. High up the research tree and expensive. Again, without a bless I don't think he's worth it.

; Shura
: A very solid thug for Shinuyama. Comparable to a Bane Lord, but cheaper and lower on the research tree. Has a few less HP than a Bane Lord, but is ethereal. They are low in the research tree and cheap to summon. Use them as thugs and they can be a key part of Shinuyama strategy. With simply some Blacksteel Fullplate and a Horror Helm or brand of some sort, they are quite capable.

; Kitsune
: Basically an N3 nature mage who only requires N2 to summon. That's kind of her big thing. other than that, nothing special. But the nature boost it provides is worth it.

; Nushi
: Like the Kitsune, a mage more powerful than what it takes to summon; this time W3D1N2 that only requires a W2N1 mage.

== Strategy ==
=== First Turns ===
;1
: Recruit a Mujina and as many Dai Bakemono as possible. Start researching Thaumaturgy for site searching spells. Keep the scout around to use as a commander.
;2
: Recruit an Uba and as many Dai Bakemono as possible. Prophetize the Mujina for a stealthy, fearing, assassin with Smite. If you think it's possible to take a province with the current forces, send all your forces with the starting commander.
;3+
: Repeat step 2 until you have an Uba with every possible path combination. However, during this time recruit commander's as necessary, make sure one is always ready as soon as enough troops will be ready for another squad. Keep things moving fast.
;4+
: Once Thaumaturgy 2 is reached, switch to Conjuration until level 3 is reached, then Evocation for level 2; this will get all the site searching spells.
: Take all the provinces around the capital first; get resources maxed.
: Send the pretender to site search.
: Send an Uba with N2 to site search (gotta bootstrap that N income).
;5+
: Look for close potential fort sites and strategize on getting them first. Aim for ones with good resources.
: Temples are not crucial, generally only build them with forts.
: Once all Uba path combos are covered, switch to Bakemono Sorcerers.
: Start automated site searching ASAP.
: Consider some Kappa squads and moving into water provinces.
;6+
: Build forts; they multiply your ability to produce resource intensive troops, and allow you to diversify your commander ranks. With multiple forts, recruit a mix of commanders.
: Think about research options.
: Think about potential targets/allies. Don't attack an Air nation.

=== Research Priorities ===
Early game magic-use should aim at permitting mages to provide support to the front lines without having to leave their labs. As soon as all site search spells have been obtained, go immediately for Const2 and Conj4 to provide items, summons, and thugs to support your armies. Shinuyama can forge the coveted Staff of Corrosion (an Acid Bolt slinging staff available at Const2). Get access to Const2 for this and other items, then get to Conj4 to get Oni and the Ghost General. Next get Ench5 for a summon (namely, Behemoth) usable by Sorcerers to aid the frontlines, the Raise Dead spells allowing your Uba and Bakemono shaman to act as decent battle mages and improve their stealth raiding capability, and buffs (Flaming Arrows and Fire Fend/Thunder Ward). With Ench5, now is time to divert Sorcerers to act as battlemages (they can cast Flaming Arrows). Next, Get Evo5 to better equip Sorcerers for battle, and finally get Const 4.

; Site search first
* Thau1, Thau2, Conj1, Conj2, Conj3
: Augury
: Auspex
: Gnome Lore
: Haruspex
: Dark Knowledge
: Voice of Apsu
: Bonds of Fire
: Summon Water Power
: Phoenix Power
: Summon Earth Power
: Summon Ko-Oni
: Summon Ao-Oni
: Summon Aka-Oni

; Equip thugs/commanders. Const2 provides enough equipment to outfit Shinuyama's specific set of thugs for raiding.
* Const1, Const2, Conj4
: Construction of Lesser Magical Items
: Legions of Steel
: Voice of Tiamat
: Ghost General
: Summon Oni

; Enchantment provides quickly useful spells for all mages (the Raise Dead spells), a great summon (Behometh), and perfect prot spells for Dai Bakemono (Thunder Ward)
* Ench1, Ench2, Ench3, Ench4, Ench5
: Animate Skeleton
: Animate Dead
: Reanimation
: Strength of Giants
: Raise Dead
: Raise Skeletons
: Heal
: Claymen
: Behemoth
: Pale Riders
: Flaming Arrows
: Fire Fend
: Thunder Ward

; Evocation provides battle magic for the top notch Sorcerers, by now you've got a few to spare from researching to accompany armies.
* Evo1, Evo2, Evo3, Evo4, Evo5, Const3, Const4
: Shadow Bolt
: Rust Mist
: Fireball
: Acid Bolt
: Magma Bolts
: Sleep Cloud
: Fire Cloud
: Acid Rain
: Blade Wind
: Breath of the Dragon
: Falling Fires
: Earthquake
: Shadow Blast
: Poison Cloud

=== Thugs ===
Shinuyama has a specific set of thugs available only to them: Mujina, Shuten-doji, and Shura. What makes these units worthy of thughood is their cheap price and surprising effectiveness with very little equipment. Each entry describes usage, and then lists some example equipment. Remeber, do not go overboard equipping these thugs; the point is that they can be effective with very little. These thugs are for cost effectiveness and getting mileage, not outright power. Except for the Mujina, do not use these thugs alone, not only are they not powerful enough for this, but they also provide provide battlefield support (in the form of fatigue or fear auras) that takes time to work and benefits from having some fodder.

; Mujina
This assassin has one very effective tool: Fear. Any unit who flees during assassination dies. Exploit this by giving Mujinas Horror Helmets. Give them some basic armor to increase survivability. Generally good armor is light weight armor such as Light weight Scalemail. Also, fit armor to the situation: if you might face a fire mage, give them Fire Plate. This can be a very cheap unit that can cause significant trouble.
: Horror Helmet
: Light weight Scalemail

; Shuten-doji
The Shuten-doji have excellent stats and boast a life draining attack. Do not equip them with any weapons or shields, or they will lose the life drain. Equip them with heavy armor and an item which improve defense or armor. Their life draining attack will reinvigorate them as they fight. Put them among ranks of undead or other units which do not accrue fatigue. Their fatiguing aura will then tire out the enemy without harming your own soldiers. Alternatively, put them with cannon fodder which would die before accruing fatigue anyway.
: Blacksteel Fullplate
: Bracers of Defense

; Shura
The Shura are ethereal, have fear, and come pre-equipped with some decent stuff. Equip them to supplement (not replace) what they already come with. Give them a Horror helmet and miscellaneous slot items which improve their defense. If they are facing fire magic, give them fire resist items.
: Horror Helmet
: Barkskin Amulet
: Bracers of Defense

Last edited by Omnirizon; September 12th, 2009 at 07:03 PM..
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  #2  
Old June 28th, 2008, 06:53 PM

Omnirizon Omnirizon is offline
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Default Re: Guide for Competitive Extreme MA Shinuyama

I wrotes a guide!!!

making good use of my free time, you see.

comments appreciated. lemme know where my ideas suck, or need improving. praise is good too
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Old June 28th, 2008, 07:58 PM
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Default Re: Guide for Competitive Extreme MA Shinuyama

Great guide! Don't forget to add it to your signaure under the link that lets us know how evil you are.

I have a question, but not specifically related to Shinuyama. Since the sorcerers have access to earth/fire/water, what is their best evocation/offensive spell? How does acid compare to magma, direct damage vs clouds, etc. I know the real answer is "it depends" but perhaps some general guidance would be good for the guide.
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Old June 28th, 2008, 08:45 PM
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Default Re: Guide for Competitive Extreme MA Shinuyama

Good guide. Although archers with both armor and swords kick ***. Just don't script them and they will do their thing.

Keep it up!
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Old June 28th, 2008, 08:53 PM

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Default Re: Guide for Competitive Extreme MA Shinuyama

A good guide. Too bad the unique immortal summons has both no new paths and dominion 1 to start.

Given that double whammy, I would be loathe to take him, despite his uniqueness. I never found the "undead" aspects of being an immortal Lich to be that bad, especially at size 2 where the Lich cannot be targeted like "large" or "flying"
pretenders.
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Old June 28th, 2008, 08:59 PM

Chris_Byler Chris_Byler is offline
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Default Re: Guide for Competitive Extreme MA Shinuyama

I think the Tengu are intended mainly for Jomon, but the other two eras have them (theoretically) for thematic reasons. They don't play much of a role unless you design your pretender to be able to summon them, and even then, you may have to have your pretender sit around auspexing to get the gem income (unless you conquer an air nation).

If you *do* conquer an air nation, or you find some site-based mage that lets you spam Auspex and get an air income, then you can use them as a sideline, but they don't form a large part of Yomi or Shinuyama strategy IMO.
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Old June 28th, 2008, 09:34 PM

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Default Re: Guide for Competitive Extreme MA Shinuyama

I actually don't use a lot of Evocations, which is why I didn't comment on them more. I need to play around with them some more. However, looking at how things look on paper, I'd recommend the following.

on Evocations, you will be using Magma and Fire spells, Shadow bolt/blast, and the Earth Evocations like Blade Wind and even Earthquake. The Acid spells are powerful, but your mages just arn't quite there with being able to handle them. Clouds vs. targeted depends on what units you are using.

O-Bakemono strategy uses lightly armored units, so you will prefer targeted spells like Magma Bolts ect. The Sorcerers have good precision.
Dai Bakemono strategy is using such highly armored units, you can use whatever you want almost. Blade Wind and the cloud spells won't do much, if any, damage to them should they get caught by them, plus they have a lot of HPs in case they do.
Oni are typically resistant to fire, poison, and sometimes cold, so can withstand spells such AoE spells, should they get caught in the splash.


sounds fun on the archers, i'll give it a spin.
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Old June 28th, 2008, 09:38 PM

Omnirizon Omnirizon is offline
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Default Re: Guide for Competitive Extreme MA Shinuyama

Quote:
Xietor said:
A good guide. Too bad the unique immortal summons has both no new paths and dominion 1 to start.

Given that double whammy, I would be loathe to take him, despite his uniqueness. I never found the "undead" aspects of being an immortal Lich to be that bad, especially at size 2 where the Lich cannot be targeted like "large" or "flying"
pretenders.
yah. i mentioned him b/c he's nation specific; i can't find a use for him either.

additionally, the heros this nation gets (heart hiders) are basically the same thing. same magic picks, immortality, almost same stats. really no good reason to go with the pretender then. but like I said, I felt compelled to mention him just becuase he is nation specific
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Old June 28th, 2008, 09:55 PM

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Default Re: Guide for Competitive Extreme MA Shinuyama

You definitely have to mention him, he is a unique pretender for Shinuyama. And he is cool.

If he started at dom 3 maybe he is cost effective. And he gets no resistance. I am not big on pretenders that get no resistance, as it is hard to protect from everything and magic when you start with nothing, especially without elemental fortitude.
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Old June 29th, 2008, 02:55 AM

dirtywick dirtywick is offline
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Default Re: Guide for Competitive Extreme MA Shinuyama

Cool guide.

For evocations, I don't really like them in general, but Shinuyama has a lot of options. I really like Rust Mist, and Blade Wind is nice if you're using Dai Bakemonos and manage to mix it up with Rust Mist-ed enemies because Blade Wind doesn't really do anything to them. Acid Storm/Blade Wind for using O-Bakemonos.

Others I like are Shadow Blast (gem management required), Bane Fire (rather make that crossbow and give it to a Shtuen-doji though), and Magma Eruption. If you want to shoot fireballs and such, the Aka Oni can do that.

Also scripting hold orders for arches has them fire twice then attack.
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