Chinese flamethrowers

[redcoat2]

I was picking a Chinese PLA force for a Sino-Vietnamese War (1979) battle when I realised that I couldn’t find any units with flamethrowers. I think the PLA may have used them at the time. Here is a photo that is supposed to be from the conflict:



I’ve flicked through the engineer units in obat14 and found only one equipped with flamethrowers: Unit 328. The start date for the unit is January 1981. The Sino-Vietnamese War was fought in February 1979 – although there were a few border skirmishes in the 1980s as well. Perhaps the start date for unit 328 could be reviewed?

[PlasmaKrab]

From the picture, looks like the old Russian favorite the LPO-50:
http://waffen-der-welt.alices-world....fer/index.html
http://www.russianwarrior.com/STMMai...on_flame.htm&1
Apparently fielded in the late 60s-early 70s in USSR, license-produced in China, so it was probably quite new for the war with Vietnam. Say maybe 5 years earlier than the existing unit you mention, barring any real info.
I can hardly believe no older models were in service before that though.

[redcoat2]

Yes. I think the flamethrower may be a Chinese Type 74 – which is a direct copy of the Russian LPO-50. I don’t know when NORINCO in China started to manufacture the weapon. It may be that the Chinese started to make the Type 74 when they were still on good terms with the Soviets – a few years before 1979.

When I googled ‘flamethrower’ and the ‘Sino-Vietnamese War’ I got this forum thread:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtop...95244&start=60

The post at the bottom mentions a photo in a book showing a flamethrower being used by the PLA during the war.

Edit: I wonder why the Chinese flamethrower is called the Type 74? 1974 perhaps?

[PlasmaKrab]

Originally Posted by redcoat2

Yes. I think the flamethrower may be a Chinese Type 74 – which is a direct copy of the Russian LPO-50. I don’t know when NORINCO in China started to manufacture the weapon. It may be that the Chinese started to make the Type 74 when they were still on good terms with the Soviets – a few years before 1979.

OK, I had't found info about the Chinese version. According to Wikipedia there is also a Chinese Type-58 flamethrower, but no more info there.

Edit: I wonder why the Chinese flamethrower is called the Type 74? 1974 perhaps?

Standard PLA practice AFAIK, but the Type-XX would generally be the year of type-classification, not IOC. Given the notoriously long trial runs favored by the PLA, it may actually have been rushed into service in '79, or have been very shortly in service outside training units.
OTOH the IOC of the LPO-50 itself (in USSR) is less and less clear the more I look into it. Apparently no one has accurate info and it is just consistently described as "post-war" which could mean anything from 1946 to 1989.

[redcoat2]

Originally Posted by PlasmaKrab

OK, I had't found info about the Chinese version. According to Wikipedia there is also a Chinese Type-58 flamethrower, but no more info there.

The Wikipedia Type 58 flamethrower is something of a mystery to me. I would be interested in learning more about it – if it exists.

Originally Posted by PlasmaKrab

Standard PLA practice AFAIK, but the Type-XX would generally be the year of type-classification, not IOC. Given the notoriously long trial runs favored by the PLA, it may actually have been rushed into service in '79, or have been very shortly in service outside training units.
OTOH the IOC of the LPO-50 itself (in USSR) is less and less clear the more I look into it. Apparently no one has accurate info and it is just consistently described as "post-war" which could mean anything from 1946 to 1989.

Indeed. The year would be the year of classification. However, I think the Chinese may have been quick to produce and introduce a tried and tested weapon. It may even be – and I am speculating now - that the Soviets gave the Chinese the design so that they could produce it for Communist forces in the ongoing Vietnam War. I would not be surprised if the PLA had the Type 74 in 1979 – five years after receiving the design.

The Russian Warrior link you posted earlier suggests that the LPO-50 may have been introduced around 1968. It could be correct. The Americans captured LP-50s in Vietnam. A CIA Intelligence Memorandum entitled ‘Sources of Military Equipment to Viet Cong and North Vietnamese Military Forces’ - written in 1968 - shows that LP-50s were captured as early as that year.

[PlasmaKrab]

Originally Posted by redcoat2

Indeed. The year would be the year of classification. However, I think the Chinese may have been quick to produce and introduce a tried and tested weapon. It may even be – and I am speculating now - that the Soviets gave the Chinese the design so that they could produce it for Communist forces in the ongoing Vietnam War. I would not be surprised if the PLA had the Type 74 in 1979 – five years after receiving the design.

The Russian Warrior link you posted earlier suggests that the LPO-50 may have been introduced around 1968. It could be correct. The Americans captured LP-50s in Vietnam. A CIA Intelligence Memorandum entitled ‘Sources of Military Equipment to Viet Cong and North Vietnamese Military Forces’ - written in 1968 - shows that LP-50s were captured as early as that year.

1968 would make the most sense as far as I have seen, though some sources unspecifically hint at earlier in the 50s/60s (the same Russian Warrior site has it referenced in the weapons of the earlier period).

Regarding Chinese IOC, some also would have the Type-74 be improved over the LPO. In this case it wouldn't be a straight copy and would take longer to put through the motions.
Going out on a limb, there's also the fact that Sino-Soviet relations weren't at their best in '74, let alone '68, so the Type-74 flamethrower could even be a retroengineered copy from some samples loaned, why not, by the NVA?

Anyhow, we could argue about dates for years, and I don't think it would change much at gameplay level.
I'm not even sure the stats are that different between a new LPO-50 and the ROKS series, so if we assume the existence of a Chinese Type-58 based on wartime Soviet models, you can have a single "Flamethrower" weapon used since around 1960.

[Marcello]

WW2 era soviet ROKS series flamethrowers are listed as in likely
North Korean and/or chinese service during the korean war.

http://www.kmike.com/Enemy%20Weapons/Frames/253.htm

I have also found several references of flamethrowers being in service with north vietnamese army sappers during the Vietnam war.
I think it is a safe bet that the chinese had some flamethrowers in service before 1979, though numbers and models are debatable.

[redcoat2]

The Type 74 may be a straight copy of the LP-50. Jane’s Infantry Weapons has this to say about it: “The Type 74 portable flame-thrower is a direct copy of the RFAS LPO-50 flame-thrower so reference should be made to that entry for full details.”

I suspect that the latest version of the Type 74 has a different fuel mixture in its cylinders from that used in the LP-50 – but otherwise the two weapons are pretty much the same.

I raised the issue about Chinese flamethrowers because I suspected that the PLA had Type 74s during the Sino-Vietnamese War in 1979 – and so unit 328 in orbat14 would need to have an earlier start date.

Of course, the Chinese had other flamethrowers before the Type 74. They captured large amounts of U.S. WW2 equipment – including flamethrowers – from KMT forces during the Chinese Civil War. A few of these – and perhaps some Soviet weapons – may have been used in Korea. The PLA definitely had a specialised flamethrower unit by 1955 - as shown by this article in PLA Daily (the official journal of the PLA).

http://english.chinamil.com.cn/site2...ent_884576.htm

As far as I can tell there are no flamethrowers in orbat14 before 1981.

[Imp]

Would the in game date represent when they became common? After all a 100 or so flamethrowers in the PLA would be a very rare beast. If the OOB was changed green text could note exceedingly rare before XX date.

[redcoat2]

The Flamethrower Company in the article was the original. There would eventually be a Flamethrower Company in every regular PLA Infantry Division. I am not sure how quickly this happened, but a MIIS report on chemical weapons says that the PLA used flamethrowers extensively during the Sino-Indian War of 1962 as well the Sino-Vietnamese War of 1979.

A report produced by the U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency in 1984 says that a Flamethrower Company comprised 9 officers and 75 enlisted men, equipped with 27 Type 74 flamethrowers. It also confirms that the Type 74 replaced the Soviet ROKS-3. A Flamethrower Company in an Infantry Division at that time was separate from the divisional Engineer Battalion. It is possible that Chinese flamethrower troops are heavy infantry (chemical troops) rather than engineers/pioneers in game terms. If that is the case, they would not have satchel charges in the game.

Flamethrower companies still exist today – but I am not sure how they are organised. I have heard that they are still present in some types of infantry division – but I have also read that they are grouped in chemical battalions under Corps control.