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  #1  
Old January 29th, 2010, 08:28 PM
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Question I need Information

I need some information and I need it from someone who knows or can point me to a website that does.

What I do not need is "I think" or "I guess" . That's how I ended up with this problem to deal with so don't both commenting if you don't know.


I need a list of all the Russian 125mm "sabot" rounds were available for export.

So far I have

BM-9 which was the first thing offered to prospective clients and is the basic steel cored APDS

BM-15 which made an apperance in 1972 and was, according to one source .. the "most advanced 125mm round available to Soviet client states until the end of USSR"

BM-42 which has ..." been exported in the recent years for use with more modern Russian and Ukrainian export tanks " and with that they specify the T-80 and up NOT the T-72

So according to this the only "sabot" available outside Russia other than the basic BM-9 was the BM-15 until the end of 1991. After that at some point BM-42 was made available for export but when exactly...... IDK

What I need to know for certain is this......


1/ Was anything between BM-15 and BM-42 exported ?? If yes, what was it and when was it shipped to and ( in my dreams ..) to who ??

2/ What year was BM-42 first exported ??

If what I already have is correct the most advanced sabot round available to any nation outside Russia up to 1992 was BM-15 but what I have may not be the whole story and I hope someone has that info .


Thanks

Don
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  #2  
Old January 30th, 2010, 09:51 AM
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Default Re: I need Information

Not sure on dates but you might like these, link mentions if export or licenced & round info does say this about BM-15 this round remained the most advanced 125mm round available to Soviet client states until the end of USSR. BM-15 and its local derivatives were license-produced in many countries.
Zip is to Rosoborn Exports Cataloge who are the main Russian Arms trader BM-42 is only APFSDS round for 125mm listed
Putting Rosbornexport in google should get you the site perhaps more current catalogue & air navy etc if want them. If your feeling really bold could try asking them for dates they can only say no

http://www.russianarmor.info/Tanks/ARM/apfsds/ammo.html

Ha its in the catalogue www.rusarm.ru
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File Type: zip Russian Export Catalogue.zip (96.8 KB, 1345 views)

Last edited by Imp; January 30th, 2010 at 10:20 AM..
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  #3  
Old January 30th, 2010, 03:53 PM
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Default Re: I need Information

I'll have a look at the export catalogue. The russianarmor.info website is what I was quoting about the three types I know about .



Don
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Old January 30th, 2010, 05:30 PM
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Default Re: I need Information

Quote:
Originally Posted by DRG View Post
BM-9 which was the first thing offered to prospective clients and is the basic steel cored APDS

BM-15 which made an apperance in 1972 and was, according to one source .. the "most advanced 125mm round available to Soviet client states until the end of USSR"
You have missed BM-12, which was a widely exported round during the Cold War. The iraqis were still using them in 1991 for example.
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Old January 31st, 2010, 04:15 AM
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Default Re: I need Information

In addition to BM-12 mentioned previously, BM-17 proliferated too (the georgians for example had it during the last war), though whether it is actually worth using weapon slots to put it into the game is a different matter; BM-9/BM-12/BM-15 should be sufficiently representative for non USSR users during the Cold War period, at least in my opinion.

Sorting out the post cold war period is a messy proposition.
Not only more russian rounds have been cleared for export but a variety of countries now manufacture 125mm rounds based on indigenous designs and sell them each other. For example the israeli have made a 125mm APFSDS for export and have sold it to India (source http://www.globalpolitician.com/2345-israel and confirmed by several others). I will see what I can dig out.

Only tangentially related but I have some notes on combat loads used by some countries on russian tanks, I can clean them a bit and post them if you are interested.
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Old January 31st, 2010, 08:24 AM
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Default Re: I need Information

OK. I'm interested in the combat loads and have already made some changes in that regard because our HE loadout tends to be a bit low in some OOB's but I will only be adjusting the grossly out of line. If one nation has 15 sabot and another 12 that's not going to be an issue for me. Having 8 HE when it should be closer to 18 will be. Also, most of the "AP" ammo for the export 125mm guns has already been removed. "AP" in the game CAN ALSO represent older "sabot" ammo when a nation may be using old and new stock but in many cases ( already corrected ) tanks were set up with only AP and no sabot whatsoever and the "AP" number wasn't even high enough to represent BM-9. A good example of that would be unit 553 in the Libyan OOB. It currently has an in service date of 2005 but is using what amounts to pre 1970 era BM-9 for it's main tank killing ammo. As noted, problems like that have already been identified and fixed

BM-12 is a valid addition to export but the problem with BM-17 is, depending on the source, only marginally better or marginally worse that BM-15. In game terms when averaged out it might be a point higher or lower than BM-15 and when you average those two together you end up with the same number. Given the DOI for both is 1972 what will be in the game for that year is a composite of BM-15 / BM-17 with an rated 43 pen which will give the published certified penetrations and solid average of the predicted average penetrations at 2000 m and that would only be used for nations that indicate a 72 ammo. Some, Like the Russian OOB use different combinations of Sabot and HEAT advancements than the export clients which makes the whole exercise a real treat and it gets worse the deeping I dig and I've been trying to get through all the other work first before settling down to deal with the ammo issue which will involved virtually all the major suppliers ammo. Once I realized the con-o-worms I was opening up at the beginning of January I put it aside and should start on it by next weekend. Preliminary checkes seem to indicate that much of the German Ammo was given penetration stats at the "muzzle" that would be more applicable to distances between 1km and 2 km but , as noted, I put that all aside to deal with the other OOB issues first so I haven't done the type of research needed to ensure that is indeed the case

Don

Last edited by DRG; January 31st, 2010 at 08:59 AM..
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Old January 31st, 2010, 09:14 AM
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Default Re: I need Information

Quote:
Originally Posted by DRG View Post
BM-12 is a valid addition to export but the problem with BM-17 is, depending on the source, only marginally better or marginally worse that BM-15. In game terms when averaged out it might be a point higher or lower than BM-15 and when you average those two together you end up with the same number. Given the DOI for both is 1972 what will be in the game for that year is a composite of BM-15 / BM-17 with an rated 43 pen which will give the published certified penetrations and solid average of the predicted average penetrations at 2000 m and that would only be used for nations that indicate a 72 ammo.
Don
As I noted trying to fit BM-17 in the game is a questionable exercise, BM-9/12/15 should cover the "Cold War era export rounds" category adequately.
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Old January 31st, 2010, 09:28 AM
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Default Re: I need Information

Quote:
Originally Posted by DRG View Post
OK. I'm interested in the combat loads and have already made some changes in that regard because our HE loadout tends to be a bit low in some OOB's but I will only be adjusting the grossly out of line. If one nation has 15 sabot and another 12 that's not going to be an issue for me. Having 8 HE when it should be closer to 18 will be.
Agree and besides what I have is only for some countries for some periods of time.
Still I think it might be useful.

Egypt
T-54 – late 60’s/early70’s: 20 HE, 10 AP, 4-5 HEAT (if available)
T-55 - late 60’s/early70’s: 24 HE, 15 AP, 4-5 HEAT (if available)
T-62 - 20 HE, 10 SABOT, 10 HEAT

BM-8 was not available in 1973, Egypt got it in 1974-75. BR-412B was common.


Yugoslavia

T-34 - Early '50s antitank load: 23 HE, 24 AP, 8 HVAP
T-34 - Late '50s antitank load: 23 HE, 20 AP, 12 HVAP
T-34 - Early '60s antitank load (after HEAT aquisition): 23 HE, 12 AP, 8 HVAP, 12 HEAT
T-34 - Post 1975 antitank load (M74 HEAT): 23 HE, 8 AP, 8 HVAP, 16 HEAT

PT-76 - late '70s standard load: 20 HE, 4 BR-350B AP, 4 BR-354P subcaliber, 12 x M74 HEAT

T-54 - Standard load: 18 HE, 6 AP, 10 HEAT
T-54 - Infantry support : 22 HE, 4 AP, 8 HEAT
T-54 - Antitank load : 14 HE, 8 AP, 12 HEAT.

T-55 - Standard load: 20HE, 11AP, 12 HEAT,
T-55 - Infantry support: 26 HE, 8 AP, 9 HEAT,
T-55- Antitank action : 16 HE, 12 AP, 15 HEAT.

T- 72 – antitank load: 14 HE, 15 APFSDS, 10 HEAT
T- 72 - infantry support : 27 HE, 6 APFSDS, 6 HEAT
T- 72M – antitank load: 17 HE, 15 APFSDS, 12 HEAT
T- 72M – infantry support: 32 HE, 6 APFSDS, 6 HEAT

General rule for Yugoslavia
Antitank load: 40% HE, 60% antitank rounds,
Infantry support load: 70% HE, 30% antitank rounds.


East Germany

T-55 - late cold war: 22 HE, 15 APDS/APDSFS, 6 HEAT, .
T-72M - late cold war: 20 HE, 14 APDSFS, 5 HEAT.


USSR and others miscellaneous

Pt-76: 24 HE, 4 AP, 4 HVAP, 8 HEAT
BMP-1: 16 HE, 24 HEAT
T-54 - Non specified Warsaw Pact load: 17 HE, 11 AP, 6 HEAT
T-62: 22 HE, 12 APFSDS, 6 HEAT
T-62 (with missiles): 20 HE, 10 APFSDS, 6 HEAT, 6 missiles
T-72 - Non specified Warsaw pact load: 15 HE, 12 APFSDS, 12 HEAT
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  #9  
Old January 31st, 2010, 02:47 PM
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Default Re: I need Information

Some additional comments.

Yugo combat loads tended to privilege antitank rounds, because the expected enemy was the soviet union and its large tank tank fleets.

The soviets were very particular about selling BM-8 APDS. Despite the fact that by the time it reached operational status it was hardly high tech its sale was often denied for years to non Warsaw pact nations, despite pressing requests for it.
This created the paradox that several countries fielded T-62s (and associated advanced APFSDS) years before they were allowed to get their hands on a badly needed APDS for their T-55.
It should be noted here that BR-412B/D were pretty marginal against tanks like the Patton series and were retained mainly because they were relatively cheap; the most effective antitank round was HEAT which, while it could destroy nearly everything it would face, was not super accurate.
Therefore an APDS was badly needed; yet it took a long time to field it and even then limits were placed upon its proliferation, so much that by the end of the Cold War only frontline satellite states like the GDR had it in abundance. Iraq, Yugoslavia etc were still employing BR-412B/D for their
T-55s in the late 80's and beyond, with newer APDS/APFSDS available in limited numbers.

Last edited by Marcello; January 31st, 2010 at 03:15 PM..
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  #10  
Old February 5th, 2010, 12:57 AM

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Default Re: I need Information

Can give for sure just Czechoslovakia...
100mm guns:
AP: BR-412B; 100-JPSv (locally produced; Date of Introduction unknown to me, but best guess is early 1960s; 160mm@1000m)
APFSDS: 100-JPpSv (copy of BM-20; End of 1970s/beginning of 1980s; 296mm@2000m)
HEAT: BK-5; 100-JPrSv (copy of BK-5M; 1960s)

125mm:
APFSDS: Imported: BM-9, BM-12, BM-15
Domestic production: 125-EPpSv (BM-15)
HEAT: BK-14M, 125-EPrSv (copy of BK-14M)

Post-Cold War a new APFSDS was developped with help from Israel: EPpSv-97 (500mm@2000)
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