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  #1  
Old December 11th, 2010, 04:35 PM

Executor Executor is offline
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I'm here to present a different view on Bogarus. I think Bogarus is a grossly undervalued nation and few realize it's potential.
I've heard a lot of regards how it's hard to ulilaze Bogarus properly, that they have sucky troops and need an awake pretender, that they're a rush target and so on.

I'm going to present a strategy that unlike most won't compensate it's weaknesses but rather apply to it's strengths which are more than enough to cover it. And I won't be going on about troops/mages/ summons and stuff cause you can look for all that yourself. This is just a general idea as how to best utilize Bogarus.

Pretender Build > Imprisoned Oracle S6, Dominion 8,
O3 P3 C3 G3 L3 M3.
Basically all positive scales with the cold 3 for protection.

Ok, so, Bogarus starts with a rather crappy army. The initial expansion for the first few turns might be a little harder, but as soon as you take the first 2-3 provinces around your capital it gets much better.
You should rely on Bogarus cavalry for expansion from the very start.

Bogarus has great administration, 60, which combined with production 3 will enable you to recruit a good amount of Bogarus elite cavalry every turn, which will in most cases take out indie provinces with little to no casualties. Note that administration gives you more gold too, so the better the scales the more gold you'll get from your forts.
In the end, most probably, you won't be able to over-expand like a bless nation, but you'll have a fair amount of lands and won't stay behind on provinces compared to rest.

The point is that with these scales you can even afford to stay behind with provinces unlike other nations. Yes, you'll maybe have fewer provinces, but you won't be lacking in either gold, gems or research.

The awesome scales will provide you an excellent income for forts and troops which you'll be able to boosts even further in no time.
Your capital mages Starets, are probably the best researchers in the game, add to that a +2 research bonus, and you'll have a 14 research mage that has great paths, and cross paths, and isn't even expensive for her worth.

So, what do you do? You'll have enough money to buy top notch troops and Starets every turn. While you start to expand, use the Staretes to research Simargls (winged dog summons). They are great patrollers, +10, flying, which means even better patrolers, and are cheap, easily massable and easily accessible. You can summons them with Startes, they only cost 2A gems and you get 5.

Around turn 7-8 you'll already be able to double taxes on your capital for a 1000+ gold income from just the capital using the summons for patrolling. It's kinda like the Pan strategy with using the harpies to boosts the income, only difference is that in this case you'll get double the money due to great scales.

Now, take that initial 550 gold and double it. Tax for 10 turns, that's 5500 gold, that's 5 forts (forest forts doe, I suggest building forts on plains due to better administration, the 200 gold dierence is not that big and you should get a 10 or 15% income boost compared to forest forts). You'll need about 15 Simagrls to patrol at 200% without unreast. However be ware as they'll kill to up to 700 population per turn so paroling for 10 turns will lower you capital population to about 25000.

In economic terms this is a great trade off. You lose roundish 100 permanent gold income from cap due to paroling. So that's 5000+ gold in the start against 100 gold per turn long term. That's over 50 turns to compensate the gold you've got from paroling.
About turn 20 you should already have at least 5 forts or under construction.

After a dozen turns you can stop taxing your capital, or not, however, obviously you continue patrolling, and start patrolling in all your forts to further lower the chances of getting attacked. The less the enemy knows about your military capabilities the less likely they'll attack. Add to that the cold 3 scale that will ever further help you evade any potential invasion with any nation that doesn't have a cold preference itself.
And besides, LA nations generally have a high resource demanding troops, so once you bring up the first few forts you'll be able to top most nations in military production, and you'll field ,although more expensive troops (which won't matter much cause you'll have plenty of gold for them), but better troops than the most, and not to mention cavalry, and archer cavalry on top of that.
Leave the growth 3 scale to slowly repopulate your capital, not much harm done.

Gem income. Staretes are great site searchers, once you get your economy running you can start sending them out to quickly site search your provinces while you shift the rest of your mages to research some defensive spells just in case.

Bare in mind that you'll have a great research lead compared to any other nation, and that you'll be able to change your research to what you need to defend yourself rather quickly.

As for early spells, I find sulphur haze can rout just about anything due to it's poisonous effect, it really synergies well with undead chaff but you need some small communion for that.
In any case, you have A/F 2/3 path accessibility with Starets. Use F3 mages for phenix power + living fire. The ones with 2F can cast phoenix power and spam living fire too with an additional F gem.
The A3 ones can cast Living Air the same way. Or again you can use a communion, doe I think that would kill the slaves pretty fast.

One mage should be able to cast at least 2 Living somethings during the battle and that's a fair amount. Gems shouldn't be a problem and the living something spells go well with sulphur haze since the elementals are poison immune of course, and mindless, meaning they won't rout, and can inflict elemental damage that can save you even from bless nations and regenerative giants.
Also, the elementals pretty much eliminate a threat from any early SC pretender, thug or whatever as one can seldom make a F/A resistant high MR unit (communion paralyze of course) so early on which still has good defensive capabilities and wont get killed.
You can also get thunderstrike for the A3 Starets (you can even use gems on the A2 Startes to cast them), etc...

Most LA nations lack proper magic power like EA and MA nations, and Bogarus has most paths covered, and great cross paths that puts them ahead of any other LA nation magic vise.

So now you have a great gold income, forts poping up all over the place to boosts your research and help you mass your elite troops, great gem income from manually site searching with Staretes, and than remote site searching for what's left and a great research lead compared to most nations that will get you to construction 8 first probably. Don't forget to get some Golems along the way too. You can have them fully kitted by turn 30.
And having luck 3 will give you even more gems and gold on top of all that. Pretty nice huh?

At this point you'll potentially raise to be the strongest nation, which will lead, or be near the top with income, forts, research and gems. The 4 graphs that count...

Last edited by Executor; December 30th, 2010 at 06:47 AM..
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  #2  
Old December 12th, 2010, 10:43 AM
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WraithLord WraithLord is offline
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Default Re: A glance at Bogarus

Do you know how well is M3 synergy with L3?
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  #3  
Old December 12th, 2010, 11:53 AM

DeadlyShoe DeadlyShoe is offline
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Default Re: A glance at Bogarus

Is it even possible to use the chaff troops, or does this method just focus exclusively on the cavalry?
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Old December 13th, 2010, 04:07 PM

thejeff thejeff is offline
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Default Re: A glance at Bogarus

Thanks for this guide. It prompted me to play around with Bogarus, pretty much for the first time since it was introduced.

The uber-scales/overtax approach seems to work well. The start is still a little slow, but seems to pick up speed nicely.

I'm a bit at a loss what to do for battle-magic in the early/mid-game. Unsupported cavalry will fade pretty quickly. The mages are good, but not strong in any one path. Communions seem the obvious approach, but I don't have the numbers yet to deploy one everywhere it's needed.
The suggestion of gem-fueled Thunderstrikes seems really expensive for routine use. Not very effective either, since you'll only get a couple strikes off before falling unconscious. Maybe worthwhile against raiding thugs or sacreds, but not regular armies. Skellispam also requires gems since you don't get more than 1D.
Other than those, Skarets can buff to 3F, which gives you some artillery. The 2A mages can do regular lightning. Not a lot of troop buffs available, beyond BE & Luck.

Later on, you'll be able to field communions and have lots of options, but I don't see what to do until then.

I'm also not sure where this build goes in the endgame. No nature means no GoR, which means Wish and Tarts aren't really viable. EDM opens up other options, but still...
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Old December 13th, 2010, 05:04 PM

Shadrach Shadrach is offline
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Default Re: A glance at Bogarus

TheDemon has a nice Bogarus guide that's worth checking out. Astrapelagist communions seem like a much better way to lay down thunderstrikes than using Starets with gems.

Bogarus is all about getting as many mages as possible as soon as possible IMHO, which is the main reason to go for scales. You should have numbers and you'll have pretty good mobility too, as Astrapelagists can cloud trapeze and one in four Starets and Masters of Names can teleport (they can all teleport with a cap). One Starets and one Astrapelagist is all you need to force multiply a mass of (preferably indie) archers with wind guide/flaming arrows, and a bunch of Astrapelagists and/or Masters of Names have a lot of things they can do with or without communions. Your end game is blood, but Tartarians are not out of the question if you plan for them.

By the way, anyone know what the plural of Starets would be? Staretsi?
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  #6  
Old December 13th, 2010, 06:32 PM

13lackGu4rd 13lackGu4rd is offline
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Default Re: A glance at Bogarus

I really don't see your issue with late game Bogarus thejeff. you have plentiful astral magic, some death magic and easy access to blood(fivefold angels and Occultist). nature is easily accessible by indies, so again I don't see a problem. what else do you need to have a successful late game...?
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Old December 13th, 2010, 06:52 PM

thejeff thejeff is offline
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Default Re: A glance at Bogarus

I was mostly focused on the midgame thoughts, so when I added the bit about end game blood completely slipped my mind. That changes everything, of course.
Blood supplies the SCs. Astral supplies everything else they need.
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Old December 13th, 2010, 07:49 PM

13lackGu4rd 13lackGu4rd is offline
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Default Re: A glance at Bogarus

you can still go with tarts as well. even a lowly D1 with 2 boosters(staff/helmet/RoW/RoS/artifacts) gives you mound fiends. all 4 of these boosters on a mount fiend=D7=tarts, or use the D4 Demiliches instead with just 3 boosters. that's if you just can't live without tarts that is, either for SCing or for super diversification. oh yeah and Wish is also accessible, though it requires the Dimensional Rod and Forbidden Light artifacts. a "lowly" S3 Starlet/Master of Names with cap+coin+RoS+Robe+Rod+Light=S9, no empowerments or anything. than wish for that S5 R'lyeh hero or whatever else fancies your boat, or just wait for a tart with more astral for easier wish access.
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  #9  
Old December 13th, 2010, 08:14 PM

thejeff thejeff is offline
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Default Re: A glance at Bogarus

Though it's hard to get the needed boosters without pretender/empowering/lucky indies.
And you still need to get to N4 for GoR .

In fact, the only non artifact boosters you can make natively are Starshine Skullcap and Skull of Fire. A few others with rare path combinations on a Starets. That surprised me, for such a diverse nation.
Of course, you'll empower in blood, which opens up those boosters. And a simple pair of Earth boots gets you Coins and Rings which open up most of what you need.

Blood is definitely the way to go for SCs. You've got the research to grab some of the uniques even with some sidetracks for other paths along the way.
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  #10  
Old December 13th, 2010, 10:33 PM

krpeters krpeters is offline
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Default Re: A glance at Bogarus

For midgame, Starets can cast Astral Fires relatively easily. If you have 5 in a battle, have the lead one carry two astral pearls. Even with only 2S he can cast Light of the Northern Star. Then the other 4 can lay down Astral Fires repeatedly.
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