Defining pretenders

aldin · #1 December 23rd, 2003, 10:32 PM

Okay, thanks for the responses. Sounds like I've got the bless effects pretender in the wrong Category. That's not suprising as my biggest weakness right now is battlefield magic.

A throwaway pretender? As in worthless? What keeps that from fitting either the Standard Mage Non-Combat or Non-Mage Combat role? They also serve who only generate a few points of research, right?

~Aldin (trying to imagine a zero cost pretender with no combat abilities and no spheres of magic)

Keir Maxwell · #2 December 24th, 2003, 03:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by aldin:

~Aldin (trying to imagine a zero cost pretender with no combat abilities and no spheres of magic)

The thing that defines a bargin bin god is why it is being bought - its being bought because its cheap. Its not there to win the war or even contribute majorly - thats the job of the army and mages and the god is really just there to applaud and offer encouragement. So it could be a Fountain of Blood, Oracle or some other cheapy which has some useful role but has been chosen because of its cheapness to free up points for dominion. Sure the same pretender can perfom a wider role but in the specific race its job is to not cost anything in order to free up points for dominion.

It may be the case that bargain bin gods, so commen in Dom1, have largely vanished as you have enough points to invest in a enhanced pretender with the vast majority of races and immobile pretender are not what they used to be.

Pythium and Arco would be examples of races who would still want to free up alot of points for dominion. Something like:

Pythium
Oracle, Astral4, Dominion7.
Order3, prod3, growth3, misfortune3, magic2.
Wizard Tower.

This is a very solid looking race which is designed to give you the most of your native troops and mages as possible as they are really very powerful and the mages have this growing affect (communion) whereby the more you invest in them the better the rate of return. The theory in this race is that you are focusing on what you really want to do - build HI and mass communions and expand fast. You don't need a combat pretender to expand fast.

cheers

Keir

Teraswaerto · #3 December 24th, 2003, 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:

quote:
Originally posted by Teraswaerto:
A blessing pretender with 9 in something will almost certainly be a combat pretender, to some degree at least.

Really? I tended to go with cheap pretenders, cheap castles, and insane scales. That got me piles of blessings for my holy units. Not really worth it in alot of cases but worked well with some. I was able to get all 4's and one or two 9's but never with a pretender that itself couild enter combat.

I was thinking along the lines of a dragon, earth mother, etc. I tend to get just one path to 9, and maybe one to 4. Ultra strong blessings with everything else sucking seems little more than a curiosity, but I may very well be wrong about that.

[ December 24, 2003, 05:21: Message edited by: Teraswaerto ]

Gandalf Parker · #4 December 24th, 2003, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Teraswaerto:
I was thinking along the lines of a dragon, earth mother, etc. I tend to get just one path to 9, and maybe one to 4. Ultra strong blessings with everything else sucking seems little more than a curiosity, but I may very well be wrong about that.

Ahhh I could see that. But to go with mega blessings only works well with races that have alot of decent blessable units. And larger/longer games since you pretty much have to be prepared to give up your home province. It can work with some nations though.

The thing is that as we move into multiple player games, even sucky strategies can earn major bonuses for NOT being what others are going to do or expect. Dont toss things based on "good" or "not good". Classify them with "pros and cons" and keep them in them in the box marked "time for a change of tactics"

-- Even if someone cant be a good player,
they can be a surprising one.

Endoperez · #5 December 24th, 2003, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
The thing is that as we move into multiple player games, even sucky strategies can earn major bonuses for NOT being what others are going to do or expect. Dont toss things based on "good" or "not good". Classify them with "pros and cons" and keep them in them in the box marked "time for a change of tactics"

-- Even if someone cant be a good player,
they can be a surprising one.

And a surprise might be enough in itself to earn you a victory.
But, how are you going to surprise someone when you *need* to (that is, when the game is going adly), if you have "different tactics" -box full of different pretenders? It's not that easy to find a strategy that fits a pretender you created for different strategy... I admit, playing a game in which you create a surprising pretender can be fun, and you might even win. But playing a race that can win the normal way you have better chances of winning (I think).

Anyway, as I'm still waiting for my copy of Dom2, can anyone tell me is there any reason to play with Turmoil? As Maenad seem rather weak and I would like to use Pangaea's new strengths (seemingly Centaur warriors), and reading the Posts of this forum, it seems going for Order/Misfortune is much better. I hadn't realised it's 50% difference in gold if you go to Tumoil+3, and that definitely has an effect in play... I don't know what I'm supposed to do with that money.

ywl · #6 December 24th, 2003, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Endoperez:

quote:
Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
The thing is that as we move into multiple player games, even sucky strategies can earn major bonuses for NOT being what others are going to do or expect. Dont toss things based on "good" or "not good". Classify them with "pros and cons" and keep them in them in the box marked "time for a change of tactics"

-- Even if someone cant be a good player,
they can be a surprising one.

And a surprise might be enough in itself to earn you a victory.
But, how are you going to surprise someone when you *need* to (that is, when the game is going adly), if you have "different tactics" -box full of different pretenders? It's not that easy to find a strategy that fits a pretender you created for different strategy... I admit, playing a game in which you create a surprising pretender can be fun, and you might even win. But playing a race that can win the normal way you have better chances of winning (I think).

Anyway, as I'm still waiting for my copy of Dom2, can anyone tell me is there any reason to play with Turmoil? As Maenad seem rather weak and I would like to use Pangaea's new strengths (seemingly Centaur warriors), and reading the Posts of this forum, it seems going for Order/Misfortune is much better. I hadn't realised it's 50% difference in gold if you go to Tumoil+3, and that definitely has an effect in play... I don't know what I'm supposed to do with that money.

You can take the middle of the road and have Order 0, Luck +3. You have less income but you'll have some luck events; and better results for "cross-breeding".

120 points are a big deal but if you intend to use a cheap pretender (e.g. Wyrm, Dragons), it's affordable.

aldin · #7 December 25th, 2003, 12:10 AM

Okay, let me try this one more time (with a MUCH better understanding than the first. Thanks again for all the informative responses!). Pretenders are designed to fill at least one of the following functions (in no particular order):

1) Bargain. The best way this pretender can help their nation is by being personally weak so that the nation can be strong.

2) Search. This pretender will have at least three spheres with at least two picks each. Because of the time intensive nature of searching, this pretender is unlikely to be much of an asset in creating items, researching or winning provinces in the early game, though they may very well excel at any of these later on.

3) Research / Craft / Summon*. This pretender stays at home and minds the shop. They have whichever magic picks are most conducive to generating greater research and/or producing items and/or performing summons*.

4) Blessings. Has picks of four and/or nine spheres in every college of magic they have. A Bless Effect pretender will also fit one of the other roles.

5) Combat. Needs to have reasonably high hit points. Can be a simple fighter, a magic caster or a combination of the two. Can generally benefit greatly from some item support. Some care needs to be taken not to risk them unduly.

6?) Stealth? No one's mentioned it, but I suppose you could make a stealthy, high dominion pretender in an attempt to covertly spread dominion and spy out weaknesses. Seems risky, but a nation like Machaka (which starts scoutless) could benefit.

~Aldin

* summon = any global casting