Caelum questions, both themes.

[fahdiz]

Well, if you got a third Death on one of your Harab Elders you could also just scrounge up some Behemoths...and that's a heck of a Mammoth replacement.

[Arryn]

Originally posted by fahdiz:
Well, if you got a third Death on one of your Harab Elders

Which is easily done with a Skull Staff.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Zen:
flying units generally have a much greater chance to rout regardless. Have him eat horses would be fine too, +5 Supply Usage

I haven't noticed that flying units have a tendency to rout that's greatly above that of ground units, although they are much more SUCCESSFUL at routing, as they simply disappear off the field: Perhaps the routing tendency is contributed due to the fact that many fliers are rather fragile and easily damaged, and you don't mass them quite as much because they're larger and more expensive units. Of course, it's also possible to deploy fliers in much larger squads without running into blockage problems, which helps to offset this. I haven't noticed any particularly extreme tendency of fliers to rout. It's far worse with Jotuns, they rout really easily due to a combination of all of the above.

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
It's far worse with Jotuns, they rout really easily due to a combination of all of the above.

I disagree (of course). Jotuns have better-than-average morale and tend to have decent staying power, as long as they're not massively swarmed, which would be a problem for any nation anyway.

[Zurai]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
I haven't noticed any particularly extreme tendency of fliers to rout. It's far worse with Jotuns, they rout really easily due to a combination of all of the above.

I very rarely see my Jotuns rout. Even their militia has 11 morale, and the other units all have at least that much, most have more. That combined with their high HP and extreme ease of routing the *enemy* by causing massive casualties means they rarely retreat, in my experience.

[Norfleet]

Then why is it that Jotun militia, especially, is widely reputed for its cowardice?

I'm sure Arryn has run into this at some point before: Jotun militia, I've found, is notorious for its tendency to break and run from battles that it could have otherwise won. Jotuns generally are more susceptible to morale failure, despite their individually higher morale, for several reasons:

#1: Their high hitpoints mean that they frequently survive hits, which force a morale check for being injured.
#2: Their higher cost means you'll have less of them in the squad, so they don't have the same level of large-squad buffering.
#3: Their large size means that relatively few Jotuns will form a line compared to the masses of smaller units that swarm you. A single Jotun will end up fighting at least 3 humans.
#4: Last but not least, large units running in terror are more noticeable. It's easier to gain a reputation for cowardice when all eyes are on you as you bravely run away. And when they run, they take a larger amount of fighting power with them.

So, as a general rule, given units of equal morale, say, a Jotun with morale 11, and humans with morale 11, the Jotuns are more likely to cut and run.

[Zurai]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
Then why is it that Jotun militia, especially, is widely reputed for its cowardice?

About all I hear about Jotun militia is that they have the best militia in the game. EDIT: And I can't believe you'd say they have a reputation for cowardice when compared to, say, Machaka or C'tis, whose militia have a reputation for running away before the fight even starts sometimes

I'm sure Arryn has run into this at some point before: Jotun militia, I've found, is notorious for its tendency to break and run from battles that it could have otherwise won.

Jotunheim is my second favorite nation. I play it A LOT. It's much more common to see my 20 PD beat 60-80 attackers than it is to see them run from them (Barring fear units/spells, of course, or SC's etc that you can't depend on non-scripted solutions for).

#1: Their high hitpoints mean that they frequently survive hits, which force a morale check for being injured.

Ah, I see, so dieing is preferable to living because it doesn't force a morale check. Gotcha.

#2: Their higher cost means you'll have less of them in the squad, so they don't have the same level of large-squad buffering.

And their higher HP and STR means they kill more of the enemy than the enemy can kill of them. Enemies break VERY quickly when being faced with giants.

#3: Their large size means that relatively few Jotuns will form a line compared to the masses of smaller units that swarm you. A single Jotun will end up fighting at least 3 humans.

Which has nothing to do with morale.

#4: Last but not least, large units running in terror are more noticeable. It's easier to gain a reputation for cowardice when all eyes are on you as you bravely run away. And when they run, they take a larger amount of fighting power with them.

I'll give you that point.

So, as a general rule, given units of equal morale, say, a Jotun with morale 11, and humans with morale 11, the Jotuns are more likely to cut and run.

Not this one though. A human with morale 11 is EXACTLY as likely to run as a giant with morale 11. The giant, however, will do more damage and Last longer in a fight.

[ March 05, 2004, 07:10: Message edited by: Zurai ]